Paul -
I won't waste too much time as it appears we both have little just now.
With respect to the question of allocation of resources, that is a question for the police agencies. In this circumstance I would expect a minimum of two local officers to respond. The first would be the beat car for the location and the second a backup unit. In this case we also had a county police car and a railroad (MTA) police car respond. As it is a railroad incident, response by MTA police is mandatory. The county car probably came along as additional backup given that a person with a "device" on the tracks was reported. Frankly, I'm surprised that there weren't additional cars that responded. I would have expected at least one supervisor as well.
After 9-11 New York tends to treat anything with even a hint of Homeland Securtiy as serious. The nature of the dispatch makes it likely to get a larger response. Probably most of the units cleared pretty fast once they realized it was a teen taking train photos and the device was a camera.
I'd be happy to continue the conversation...
8NSand
Paul_D_North_Jr 8NSand - Your other points are noted and well-taken, but for the next couple of days my spare time is exceedingly limited. For the moment I'll just note that I too view R-O-W trespassing, teen 'punks', and burglars using the R-O-W as serious problems to be dealt with - but those last 2 don't seem to be involved here. More to the point, the word 'public' in "public road" means something, and at a skewed-angle crossing such as this one, I see a good possibility that's where he actually was. I also see you know the other half of that saying . . . With respect, I have no desire to practice in NYS - state lines also mean something besides pretty colors on a map ! (Your observations about Pennsylvania jurisprudence are valid, too - "Preliminary Objections" ?!?) But my prime concern is the apparent misuse and waste of manpower here. Say what you will, sound judgment and discretion appears to have been lacking in several aspects, such as the number of personnel and the seeming lack of interest in getting to the real facts, as opposed to badgering the suspect into a confession - didn't even appear to be the usual "good cop - bad cop" routine going on here. Let me put it to you this way: If you were the ADA in charge of this case, would you assign and approve of 4 of your professional staff working this little case simultaneously ? (If so, maybe that's why you're so busy . . . ) Perhaps we can continue this exchange of views at a later time, esp. after we have more facts. - Paul North.
8NSand - Your other points are noted and well-taken, but for the next couple of days my spare time is exceedingly limited. For the moment I'll just note that I too view R-O-W trespassing, teen 'punks', and burglars using the R-O-W as serious problems to be dealt with - but those last 2 don't seem to be involved here. More to the point, the word 'public' in "public road" means something, and at a skewed-angle crossing such as this one, I see a good possibility that's where he actually was. I also see you know the other half of that saying . . . With respect, I have no desire to practice in NYS - state lines also mean something besides pretty colors on a map ! (Your observations about Pennsylvania jurisprudence are valid, too - "Preliminary Objections" ?!?)
But my prime concern is the apparent misuse and waste of manpower here. Say what you will, sound judgment and discretion appears to have been lacking in several aspects, such as the number of personnel and the seeming lack of interest in getting to the real facts, as opposed to badgering the suspect into a confession - didn't even appear to be the usual "good cop - bad cop" routine going on here. Let me put it to you this way: If you were the ADA in charge of this case, would you assign and approve of 4 of your professional staff working this little case simultaneously ? (If so, maybe that's why you're so busy . . . )
Perhaps we can continue this exchange of views at a later time, esp. after we have more facts.
- Paul North.
schlimm As I said before, this kid's story may well be for real, maybe not. He may be the victim of police abuse, maybe not. But what amazes me is the rush to total acceptance of this story with very little factual evidence, seemingly b/c he is a railfan. And some folks on this thread who ordinarily are very supportive of the police and the sanctity of rail RofW's seem to have a different standard in this case. If he was arrested, should he not have some documentation for that from the police department, etc.? And given the recent publicity of the threat to rail security, it seems a bit surprising that someone arrested on the basis of suspicious behavior along a busy passenger rail RofW didn't make the local news.
As I said before, this kid's story may well be for real, maybe not. He may be the victim of police abuse, maybe not. But what amazes me is the rush to total acceptance of this story with very little factual evidence, seemingly b/c he is a railfan. And some folks on this thread who ordinarily are very supportive of the police and the sanctity of rail RofW's seem to have a different standard in this case. If he was arrested, should he not have some documentation for that from the police department, etc.? And given the recent publicity of the threat to rail security, it seems a bit surprising that someone arrested on the basis of suspicious behavior along a busy passenger rail RofW didn't make the local news.
Since there are people that believe this is fake, I will post a copy of my summons. I have no idea why the news didn't show up, but the road that crosses the tracks was closed to all traffic, thus preventing them to enter.
As for the info about the laws and ROW that I saw posted, If this is true (which it most likely is) then why didn't the plenty of police that have confronted me before, let me continue photographing? And this would also mean that the President of MTA Customer service, gave me misleading information saying that it was perfectly ok to be there.
harlemlinedispatch schlimm: As I said before, this kid's story may well be for real, maybe not. He may be the victim of police abuse, maybe not. But what amazes me is the rush to total acceptance of this story with very little factual evidence, seemingly b/c he is a railfan. And some folks on this thread who ordinarily are very supportive of the police and the sanctity of rail RofW's seem to have a different standard in this case. If he was arrested, should he not have some documentation for that from the police department, etc.? And given the recent publicity of the threat to rail security, it seems a bit surprising that someone arrested on the basis of suspicious behavior along a busy passenger rail RofW didn't make the local news. Since there are people that believe this is fake, I will post a copy of my summons. I have no idea why the news didn't show up, but the road that crosses the tracks was closed to all traffic, thus preventing them to enter. As for the info about the laws and ROW that I saw posted, If this is true (which it most likely is) then why didn't the plenty of police that have confronted me before, let me continue photographing? And this would also mean that the President of MTA Customer service, gave me misleading information saying that it was perfectly ok to be there.
schlimm: As I said before, this kid's story may well be for real, maybe not. He may be the victim of police abuse, maybe not. But what amazes me is the rush to total acceptance of this story with very little factual evidence, seemingly b/c he is a railfan. And some folks on this thread who ordinarily are very supportive of the police and the sanctity of rail RofW's seem to have a different standard in this case. If he was arrested, should he not have some documentation for that from the police department, etc.? And given the recent publicity of the threat to rail security, it seems a bit surprising that someone arrested on the basis of suspicious behavior along a busy passenger rail RofW didn't make the local news.
Simply put, the police have discretion to arrest or not or to issue an appearance ticket or not. Or simply give you a warning. This time you were apparently the subject of a civilian complaint so the officers decided to exercise their discretion in favor of being safe and arresting you. You still got a break as you could have ended up in jail. Instead you got a ticket...
harlemlinedispatch Since there are people that believe this is fake, I will post a copy of my summons. I have no idea why the news didn't show up, but the road that crosses the tracks was closed to all traffic, thus preventing them to enter. As for the info about the laws and ROW that I saw posted, If this is true (which it most likely is) then why didn't the plenty of police that have confronted me before, let me continue photographing? And this would also mean that the President of MTA Customer service, gave me misleading information saying that it was perfectly ok to be there.
Seriously dude, you need to get off of railfan forums and only talk with your lawyer.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
You have the right to remain silent...........' might not be a bad idea.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding You have the right to remain silent...........' might not be a bad idea.
Would have been a MUCH better idea a couple of days ago. Posting too much info and photos could cause a significant legal issue and tie your attorney's hands in plea negotiations or at trial. A trial on a violation such as this will be a bench trial before a judge only. No juries unless you commit a crime. Crimes are misdemeanors and felonies.
8 n' Sand
It seems like these officers are really desperate. They might not have seen any action in a while and this is what they needed.
Mr. Railman It seems like these officers are really desperate. They might not have seen any action in a while and this is what they needed.
Yeah, somehow I doubt that.
Jack -
With all due respect, anyone can sue someone over almost anything. That said, I haven't seen anything in the video or still photos that show the suspect being subjected to police use of force. Being restrained by handcuffs for officer safety is standard procedure. Having a discussion, no matter how overbearing does not constitute actionable negligence, nor is it a civil rights violation. As a case against the cops, unless there is a LOT more evidence that something happened and there was actionable conduct and real damages, this is a LOSER. There are at least four police witnesses from different agencies to refute the allegations and we are talking about Westchester County, a conservative and police friendly jurisdiction. Very unlikely that a jury would have much sympathy for the plaintiff. It is very different from NYC and the results will reflect that...
I wouldn't want to be the attorney for either side in such a suit, as the judge will likely be upset with both for wasting the court's time.
When you say someone is “kneeling down next to the tracks with a device,” it sounds like they are two feet from the rail and preparing to attach a bomb to it.
But kneeling down next to the tracks could be tying a shoe thirty feel from the tracks. It is hard to believe that the location indicated would amount to trespass on the railroad. Are pedestrians walking alongside of a road trespassing when they cross a railroad?
yad sdrawkcab s'ti
Hey, With all of the crazy crap thats going on in the world today, a cop thats going by a person that is supposingly kneeling by the tracks with a cell phone. He was just acting on his instincts to stop and see what was going on. If he seen the Kid with a camera around his neck he proabably wouldnt think twice about stopping. Get off the backs of the cops! they are just protecting the citizens of this Great Country! Sure there are some bad cops out there but there are some of those types in every profession! I dont care what you guys say! The kid was just being questioned and that was it. Kevin
oh the internet, where anyone can be excitable about anything.
Remember this "post" about the teen who made a big deal about the police bothering him while he was at a road crossing watching/shooting Metro North trains? Supposedly he had a court appearance on July 12. Wonder what happened, if anything?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
A word to the wise, whether inocent or guilty, if you are ever detained by the Police, never ever let the Police coerce you into any type of conversation without an attorney present as they can and will use anything you say against you. All you legally have to do is provide proof of who you are.
FYI: Didn't NY ACLU get a consent decree from MTA over some incidents on NYCTA & LIRR. I remember a few years back it being on one of the forums. And Don Phillips was talking about it as well. Rgds IGN
Ibflattop Sure there are some bad cops out there but there are some of those types in every profession!
Sure there are some bad cops out there but there are some of those types in every profession!
he's still posting new rail videos, so I guess his lawyer wasn't able to shut him up until after the trial
HTower he's still posting new rail videos, so I guess his lawyer wasn't able to shut him up until after the trial
I'm not going to let a court case stop me from railfanning.
If you look at his (g. grice) and his friends' tweets, you can see these folks are harmless, but like to do silly stuff, sometimes to upset adults and authorities, such as "planking" aka, the lying down game or play dead game [face down, motionless]. Not too hard to imagine that police would be suspicious of that activity by a track.
Because enjoying his legal hobby is totally a detriment to his legal defense...
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
The post by "IRideTheHarlemLine" was a joke. I was not "planking" or anything of such. I was not even at that location at the time. If you look at the video I favored, its not really an F40 running over someone.
trainboyH16-44 HTower: he's still posting new rail videos, so I guess his lawyer wasn't able to shut him up until after the trial Because enjoying his legal hobby is totally a detriment to his legal defense...
HTower: he's still posting new rail videos, so I guess his lawyer wasn't able to shut him up until after the trial
Yeah, but if you are involved in legal precedings, it's probably better to keep a low profile until you get it worked out.
And yes, Virginia, this includes posting to rail forums.
His hearing was supposed to have been three days ago. And you can see the sort of stuff folks like him are involved with.
His supposed court hearing he earlier had claimed was July 12. Continued? Dismissed? Bound over for trial? Never was? Indicating the outcome on a forum is in no way damaging to his case.
His lawyer probably obtained an adjournment. A good idea to let things quiet down. Hopefully the prosecution is not aware of this site and his other posts...
8 N' Sand
If he actually didn't do anything wrong, the case will be dismissed, regardless of his postings. The way some folks are posting on this, it's as though they think he really did something illegal, but want him to get off and blame the police, as though he were truly a victim of police abuse. Judging by the sort of silly postings he and his pals make on Twitter, some real railfan or railroader needs to straighten him out and get him to realize that in this day and age, what were once innocent, though goofy acts of youth around transportation areas, will get you in real trouble.
This entire incident reminds me why recently I've chosen to become the "invisible" railfan - I'll park my car a distance from the tracks, I'll walk over, and then I'll go sit in the bushes hidden and out of sight. I used to wave high to the crews but I don't even do that anymore - I remember once I was doing that and some a-hole crew member reported me as a "suspicious person" next to the tracks as I was waving to them (and please excuse me all of you nice guys out there that wave back, but as in any profession there are certain people who just have a bad attitude). When I stay out of sight I can enjoy watching the trains and nobody bothers me - and I have been bothered numerous times by police when I was in site and completely legal they just find it "odd" that someone would stand by the tracks for the sole purpose of watching trains... just stay hidden and out of sight is my advice.
Because sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...?
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