BaltACD There is not a tranportation medium in the world that does not have fatigue problems. Even The DisneyWorld mono-rail has had a fatal rear end collision.
There is not a tranportation medium in the world that does not have fatigue problems. Even The DisneyWorld mono-rail has had a fatal rear end collision.
Absolutely. After an unplanned FORCED night time bus ride in the close past this article causes me to never to want to ride a bus again. At least on a rail vehicle there can not be any veering off the rail. Several recent bus accidents show the consequences.
http://beta.news.yahoo.com/fatal-va-bus-crash-shines-light-driver-fatigue-134200702.html
Of course, very true. All the more reason those media as well as other work environments try to find solutions for improvement. If they don't work, they try something else.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
REmember two things: 1) sleep is not the only factor in fatigue but also stress, routine, monotony, and other things over a long period of time and 2) fatigue is not just a transportation issue but is a factor in decision making as well as manufacturing, all jobs really. We in America seem to have the hardest time dealing with it. In Europe and Asia there seems to be a willingness to allow for shorter work weeks, more vaction times, more family time, better health benefits (taking care of the labor force, keeping it healthy and available, not pandering to the wretched poor lower class), etc. without penelizing income. Here manageament fears losing productive man hours demanding labor to keep performing while labor has to keep working in fear of losing one's job and/or missing a day's pay.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Bucyrus I am having a hard time following the thrust of this thread. I thought that railroaders were nearly unanimous in their belief that crew fatigue was a big problem. But now I am told that if you say the problem might have a solution because a foreign railroad has no fatigue problem, professional U.S. railroaders will think you are calling them stupid for not solving their fatigue problem. So the conclusion seems to be that U.S. fatigue is a big problem, but solution is beyond anyone’s control. Otherwise they would have solved the problem.
I am having a hard time following the thrust of this thread. I thought that railroaders were nearly unanimous in their belief that crew fatigue was a big problem. But now I am told that if you say the problem might have a solution because a foreign railroad has no fatigue problem, professional U.S. railroaders will think you are calling them stupid for not solving their fatigue problem. So the conclusion seems to be that U.S. fatigue is a big problem, but solution is beyond anyone’s control. Otherwise they would have solved the problem.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Paul_D_North_Jr Thank you - once again - BaltACD, for those thorough and informative responses, which has made this an enlightening thread, at least for me. I won't pretend it's simplistically easy to solve these problems - and your candor makes clear where a lot of them may originate and what needs to be done to solve them, or do something different to head in that direction. I can tell you care - at your level, attitude is the most important job qualification - I only wish there were more like you out there and in charge; I'd certainly be willing to work with you. Again, thanks. - Paul North.
Thank you - once again - BaltACD, for those thorough and informative responses, which has made this an enlightening thread, at least for me. I won't pretend it's simplistically easy to solve these problems - and your candor makes clear where a lot of them may originate and what needs to be done to solve them, or do something different to head in that direction. I can tell you care - at your level, attitude is the most important job qualification - I only wish there were more like you out there and in charge; I'd certainly be willing to work with you. Again, thanks.
- Paul North.
Agree! with everything....
Understanding, and even measuring, the problem is really the easy part. Figuring out a practical, cost effective solution is the trouble.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
jeffhergert [emphasis added - PDN] I think many of you are hung up on that the railroad needs to run it's trains on a scheduled system. That's, as stated, not always possible. What would probably work better is scheduling the people. It's been proposed and maybe tried using "call windows." An employee protects a certain time period; six, eight, or whatever hours. If they don't get called to work during that period they get a basic day's pay and drop to the bottom of the board until their "window" opens again the next day. I've heard it was proposed or tried on a part of the UP using pool crews. In their case, when their window closed, any crew not used was deadheaded to the away frm home terminal. I'm not sure how it worked ar the AFHT, but they may have had a window there too and deadhead home if not used. I'm not sure the pools really need it though. When I tie up, at either home or away, I can check the line up and usually have a good idea of when I'm going back to work. I can't always tell the train, but the times usually hold up fairly well. (It should be noted, the farther out like say 30 hours the time might move somewhat but by about 10 hours out the times firm up. Within about 8 or 10 hours I can start to tell which condr I'll probably get.) What you can't always see is last minute crises that stop everything. Something like a broken rail,trains being held for a hot train or routine MOW work. That's more of an inconvenience, but if a train is figured with a 5pm start time I'd rather go to work then instead of 9pm. At least know about when they intend to call, rather than sit and watch the phone and wonder. The extra boards however are a different story. The most I've ever been 1st out is about 16 hours. (We have terminals where someone, like Georgia Railroader has done, have been 1st out for a few days) On the extra board you're at the mercy of whether an assigned person (not necessarily a person working a regular, ie yard or local job) laying off. Whether an extra or short turn job goes to the pool or the extra board. Some places you have to watch nearby terminal's extra boards. If they're used up they might call you to deadhead over for an assignment. I could see where something is needed for them. I've read the proposals submitted here and elsewhere. I think some have promise and some don't. (I for one, don't want a 10 hour call. The idea that you can't lay off after being called is BS. I've been called ASAP because someone layed off either on or after call. Some were understandable, auto accident on the way to work, and some were not.) I do know that without everyone and I mean everyone, not just so called "experts" from both sides input we'll just get more of the same: things that don't really work but look like something's being done. Jeff
I've heard it was proposed or tried on a part of the UP using pool crews. In their case, when their window closed, any crew not used was deadheaded to the away frm home terminal. I'm not sure how it worked ar the AFHT, but they may have had a window there too and deadhead home if not used.
I'm not sure the pools really need it though. When I tie up, at either home or away, I can check the line up and usually have a good idea of when I'm going back to work. I can't always tell the train, but the times usually hold up fairly well. (It should be noted, the farther out like say 30 hours the time might move somewhat but by about 10 hours out the times firm up. Within about 8 or 10 hours I can start to tell which condr I'll probably get.) What you can't always see is last minute crises that stop everything. Something like a broken rail,trains being held for a hot train or routine MOW work. That's more of an inconvenience, but if a train is figured with a 5pm start time I'd rather go to work then instead of 9pm. At least know about when they intend to call, rather than sit and watch the phone and wonder.
The extra boards however are a different story. The most I've ever been 1st out is about 16 hours. (We have terminals where someone, like Georgia Railroader has done, have been 1st out for a few days) On the extra board you're at the mercy of whether an assigned person (not necessarily a person working a regular, ie yard or local job) laying off. Whether an extra or short turn job goes to the pool or the extra board. Some places you have to watch nearby terminal's extra boards. If they're used up they might call you to deadhead over for an assignment. I could see where something is needed for them.
I've read the proposals submitted here and elsewhere. I think some have promise and some don't. (I for one, don't want a 10 hour call. The idea that you can't lay off after being called is BS. I've been called ASAP because someone layed off either on or after call. Some were understandable, auto accident on the way to work, and some were not.) I do know that without everyone and I mean everyone, not just so called "experts" from both sides input we'll just get more of the same: things that don't really work but look like something's being done.
Jeff
For now - because as a result, I'm suddenly severely time-limited for this - I'll just respond to Jeff's last point by linking to this little essay from the Canadian Business Network (?) - "Connecting the Dots", by Greig Clark, date-lined: December 01, 2008, at: http://www.profitguide.com/article/3031--connecting-the-dots - and these excerpts from it:
"Enough chatter, let’s get down to something we can actually do!” That’s how one CEO, in a recent strategic-planning session for his business, expressed a problem I see all too often: translating all the planning we do into a plan that gets executed.
Words are good. Actions are better. Even politicians are sometimes afflicted with a bias for action. As British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli once expressed to his Queen Victoria: “Action does not necessarily lead to happiness, but without action there can be no happiness.”
In the businesses that I’ve both worked in and advised, I’ve learned a few things about connecting the dots between planning and action that I want to share with you."
Paul_D_North_Jr Hey, the fun just doesn't stop !! (By the way, just for clarification - it seems to me that there's 2 different threads going on here - this one with you, me, ed, jeff, petinj, zug, and maybe a few others - and the other one involving Europe - and now skydiving . . .? Anyway, back to this one - and yes, as a matter of fact, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last Saturday night [Westfield, Mass.] ) I was thinking we had gotten off this thread's topic of Rear-End Collisions caused by crew fatigue, etc., but now I see how more crews got used up than anyone could rationally plan for and schedule, or get past a manager-type ==> shortage of crews, then any hope of sane scheduling or work and rest periods and crew rotations goes to heck in a handbasket, etc. After thinking some more about the incidents in your previous post at "0-dark:30" in the morning of 08 June, it appears that crew district apparently had no rested crews available for an entire 12-hour period - from 0200 to 1400. If so, that may have resulted from the happy (?) circumstance of too much traffic and committing too many crew resources to handle it, without any reserve or 'bench' depth while the heavy action - most freights at night ? - was going on. A sports coach or military commander would understand . . . BaltACD: My understanding was that our division furloughed approximately 200 T&E personnel during the recent economic downturn. When the economy picked up and the recall notices went out only 20% of those furloughed came back (historically in the past 80-85% of furloughs returned when recalled). This set up the need for a hiring situation that had not been planned for. Roughly 50% of the crews we are operating have trainee's with them...but they are not ready to pull their own weight. Soooooo - we are short of crews at all terminals on the division and are delaying the Origination of 5 to 10 trains daily on the availability of a rested crew. Additionally, I don't think Crew Managements algorithms for staffing have been accurately adjusted to account for the revised Hours of Service Law that became effective in 2010. 8 Sun Kinks, eh ? Over how many Track-Miles or Route-Miles ? Again somewhat superficially (= admittedly without knowing all the facts), that seems like a lot, to me - perhaps too many - even for maybe the 1st really hot day of the season. I would expect the VP Engrg. and/ or Chief Engr. M-O-W to be asking some really hard questions, such as: "Is our standard for the "Neutral Temperature" for CWR (and even any jointed rail) too low ?" "If not, then why so many Sun Kinks yesterday ?" "Are the MOW people following good practices in adjusting the rail for Neutral Temperature, and maintaining or restoring that when doing other MOW work such as replacing ties, raising/ surfacing and tamping, etc. ?" "Are the ballast section and tie conditions acceptable where those Sun Kinks occurred ?" And so on. BaltACD: The division encompasses approximately 1000 route miles and about 1800 track miles and experiences weather extremes of below zero to above 100. We have had Tie & Surfacing gangs active since the middle of February and approximately 600 track miles have had their ballast 'disturbed' since the gangs started their production season. They are scheduled to continue working through the middle of December. We currently have two T&S gangs working and just finished with one rail gang and two Curve Patch rail gangs that worked about 3 months changing out worn curve rail on numerous curves on multiple sub-divisions. I believe one of the Curve Patch gangs is due to return in the late Summer after the annual Maintenance Jamboree takes place on one of the main coal lines during the Miners Vacation period. The division is currently operating 3 ballast trains, one of which is a Herzog GPS dumping train that we try to have loaded and dumped twice each week in areas ahead of the Tie and Surfacing gangs . And see the at least superficial common thread here - air brakes and couplings ? Wonder how many train delays, HOS 'outlaws', recrews, etc. could be traced back to just those 2 items ? Relative to the other set of incidents as well: Is there any kind of database kept on UDE and hose uncoupling events, as well as broken drawbars ? I understand that it's often a mystery and unknown which specific car initiated the UDE, or exactly why the hoses parted (see Appendix B of the TSB Canada report at: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2000/r00h0004/r00h0004.asp#a6 ). But that's exactly my point - after spending 1 hr. 30 mins. for each of a couple of leisurely strolls along the ballast shoulder, the conductor - or the DS or TAM - should be more than willing to make a brief entry in a log of just the train ID, location, speed, etc. when the UDE occurred. By itself, that data isn't enough to find the problem, I know. But after a month or so, running it through a computer to compare and sort would reveal if more than one hose parting happened at a specific location, which might indicate a track surface problem (such as at a rough grade crossing) or vandalism (in a rough neighborhood). More challenging would be an intermittent or transient bad brake valve problem. But if in comparing the reporting marks of all the cars in all the trains that had UDEs which couldn't be identified as to cause, if the same car or cars turned up more than once, that would be a pretty good indicator of the likely culprit. See generally the TSB Canada report linked above. BaltACD: There is a system computer application that all Car 'malfunction' incidents are supposed to be entered by the Chief Dispatchers for each territory. The data from this creates a database for the Mechanical folk...what use and analysis of the data they make I do not know. The downside of this procedure is that the data chain from the occurrence to the database has many links and each link required 'manual' effort to move the data onto the next link. The Conductor must make note of the equipment number that gave the problem and provide that to the 'Trick' Dispatcher who is supposed to enter notes about the occurrence in the trains 'Train Sheet'. The Trick Dispatcher must also communicate the information to the Chief Dispatcher. The Chief must enter the information in narrative form in the Division Unusual Occurrences Log for perusal by Division Officials and then enter the specific car data into the appropriate Car Defect computer application...In the crush of action, for both the Trick Dispatcher and the Chief not everything gets reported as it should. Additionally, every time a car activates a Defect Detector that information is also supposed to be logged and reported through the same systems. I know others that I share the position with don't get everything reported that they are supposed to in Car Defect application....I see their lack of reporting when I go to report what I have to report. As information approximately 45 Defect Detectors are activated one or more times every month and at least 120 trains are stopped by these activations, consider that every time a freight train is stopped you can figure AT LEAST 1 hour delay and if the trains are in the 9000 foot range you can figure 2 to 3 hours of delay for the train being inspected. On one territory there has been installed a highly sophisticated Defect Detector - it detects Wheel Impacts (flat wheels), Overloads and uneven loads - this one detector has been stopping at least one train a day on average and when the wheel impact defects are critical and the car(s) must be set out, the minimum delay is 3 hours and it is more normally in the range of 5 to 6 hours, needless to say when a critical wheel impact occurs, the train gets recrewed. Other possible solutions to that problem is testing the air brake systems on the cars more often, such as with a Single Car Test Device - see, for example: WABCO's "Automated SIngle Car Test Device Quick-Start Guide" (2 pages, approx. 185 KB in size) at: http://techinfo.wabtec.com/DataFiles/Leaflets/ASCTD%20Quick%20Start%20Guide%20A.pdf http://www.grahamwhite.com/main/category.php?C1=19 http://nyab.thomasnet.com/item/test-devices/freight-single-car-testing-device-complete/770604? and/ or http://nyab.thomasnet.com/viewitems/test-devices/freight-single-car-testing-device-complete?&bc=100|1010 See also the "Undesired Emergency Application Detection System" at: http://www.rrtools.com/CarMaintenance/EmergencyDetectionSystem.asp Perhaps a broader or more general solution is requiring and implementing more frequent or more 'intelligent' COT&S = "Clean, Oil, Test, & Stencil" of the air brake systems ? I understand that interval can be as long as 8 years for new cars, and then 4 to 5 years thereafter ? See the TSB report linked above at 1.16.1 SIngle Car Testing and the following: http://www.thegbsgroup.us/CaseStudiesDocs/gbs_rcmhandout%20Fall%202008.pdf http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1215/is_n1_v193/ai_11832873/ Of course, once ECP brakes are more fully implemented, they may reduce the frequency of the problem, as well as make the diagnosis and identification of the too-sensitive car a lot easier. Finally - Couldn't the passenger/commuter train have pushed or pulled the 9 cars that were left on the main into the clear someplace, so the main could be reopened and get moving again - with appropriate protection, sueprvision, and at Restricted Speed (or less), of course ? BaltACD: In this instance the 'dead' cars were on #3 track. The Commuter trains operate on #2 track and are operated by a separate commuter entity, not a part of our company. The ONLY time you would EVER have a passenger crew touch a part of a freight train is when doing so is the ONLY way that the passenger train can continue it's trip. Many years ago I had a freight train have engine failure on single track ahead of Auto Train and it could not move...those were the only two trains on the sub-division...had Auto Train cut off it's power and shove the freight train to the first point of clearance. Auto Train power then returned to it's train, coupled up and proceeded...there were NO OTHER alternatives. As I recall the freight train then outlawed at that point of clearance while arrangements were made to get working power to the train. - Paul North.
Hey, the fun just doesn't stop !!
(By the way, just for clarification - it seems to me that there's 2 different threads going on here - this one with you, me, ed, jeff, petinj, zug, and maybe a few others - and the other one involving Europe - and now skydiving . . .? Anyway, back to this one - and yes, as a matter of fact, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last Saturday night [Westfield, Mass.] )
I was thinking we had gotten off this thread's topic of Rear-End Collisions caused by crew fatigue, etc., but now I see how more crews got used up than anyone could rationally plan for and schedule, or get past a manager-type ==> shortage of crews, then any hope of sane scheduling or work and rest periods and crew rotations goes to heck in a handbasket, etc.
After thinking some more about the incidents in your previous post at "0-dark:30" in the morning of 08 June, it appears that crew district apparently had no rested crews available for an entire 12-hour period - from 0200 to 1400. If so, that may have resulted from the happy (?) circumstance of too much traffic and committing too many crew resources to handle it, without any reserve or 'bench' depth while the heavy action - most freights at night ? - was going on. A sports coach or military commander would understand . . .
BaltACD: My understanding was that our division furloughed approximately 200 T&E personnel during the recent economic downturn. When the economy picked up and the recall notices went out only 20% of those furloughed came back (historically in the past 80-85% of furloughs returned when recalled). This set up the need for a hiring situation that had not been planned for. Roughly 50% of the crews we are operating have trainee's with them...but they are not ready to pull their own weight. Soooooo - we are short of crews at all terminals on the division and are delaying the Origination of 5 to 10 trains daily on the availability of a rested crew. Additionally, I don't think Crew Managements algorithms for staffing have been accurately adjusted to account for the revised Hours of Service Law that became effective in 2010.
BaltACD:
My understanding was that our division furloughed approximately 200 T&E personnel during the recent economic downturn. When the economy picked up and the recall notices went out only 20% of those furloughed came back (historically in the past 80-85% of furloughs returned when recalled). This set up the need for a hiring situation that had not been planned for. Roughly 50% of the crews we are operating have trainee's with them...but they are not ready to pull their own weight. Soooooo - we are short of crews at all terminals on the division and are delaying the Origination of 5 to 10 trains daily on the availability of a rested crew. Additionally, I don't think Crew Managements algorithms for staffing have been accurately adjusted to account for the revised Hours of Service Law that became effective in 2010.
8 Sun Kinks, eh ? Over how many Track-Miles or Route-Miles ? Again somewhat superficially (= admittedly without knowing all the facts), that seems like a lot, to me - perhaps too many - even for maybe the 1st really hot day of the season. I would expect the VP Engrg. and/ or Chief Engr. M-O-W to be asking some really hard questions, such as: "Is our standard for the "Neutral Temperature" for CWR (and even any jointed rail) too low ?" "If not, then why so many Sun Kinks yesterday ?" "Are the MOW people following good practices in adjusting the rail for Neutral Temperature, and maintaining or restoring that when doing other MOW work such as replacing ties, raising/ surfacing and tamping, etc. ?" "Are the ballast section and tie conditions acceptable where those Sun Kinks occurred ?" And so on.
The division encompasses approximately 1000 route miles and about 1800 track miles and experiences weather extremes of below zero to above 100. We have had Tie & Surfacing gangs active since the middle of February and approximately 600 track miles have had their ballast 'disturbed' since the gangs started their production season. They are scheduled to continue working through the middle of December. We currently have two T&S gangs working and just finished with one rail gang and two Curve Patch rail gangs that worked about 3 months changing out worn curve rail on numerous curves on multiple sub-divisions. I believe one of the Curve Patch gangs is due to return in the late Summer after the annual Maintenance Jamboree takes place on one of the main coal lines during the Miners Vacation period. The division is currently operating 3 ballast trains, one of which is a Herzog GPS dumping train that we try to have loaded and dumped twice each week in areas ahead of the Tie and Surfacing gangs
And see the at least superficial common thread here - air brakes and couplings ? Wonder how many train delays, HOS 'outlaws', recrews, etc. could be traced back to just those 2 items ?
Relative to the other set of incidents as well: Is there any kind of database kept on UDE and hose uncoupling events, as well as broken drawbars ? I understand that it's often a mystery and unknown which specific car initiated the UDE, or exactly why the hoses parted (see Appendix B of the TSB Canada report at: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2000/r00h0004/r00h0004.asp#a6 ). But that's exactly my point - after spending 1 hr. 30 mins. for each of a couple of leisurely strolls along the ballast shoulder, the conductor - or the DS or TAM - should be more than willing to make a brief entry in a log of just the train ID, location, speed, etc. when the UDE occurred. By itself, that data isn't enough to find the problem, I know. But after a month or so, running it through a computer to compare and sort would reveal if more than one hose parting happened at a specific location, which might indicate a track surface problem (such as at a rough grade crossing) or vandalism (in a rough neighborhood). More challenging would be an intermittent or transient bad brake valve problem. But if in comparing the reporting marks of all the cars in all the trains that had UDEs which couldn't be identified as to cause, if the same car or cars turned up more than once, that would be a pretty good indicator of the likely culprit. See generally the TSB Canada report linked above.
There is a system computer application that all Car 'malfunction' incidents are supposed to be entered by the Chief Dispatchers for each territory. The data from this creates a database for the Mechanical folk...what use and analysis of the data they make I do not know. The downside of this procedure is that the data chain from the occurrence to the database has many links and each link required 'manual' effort to move the data onto the next link. The Conductor must make note of the equipment number that gave the problem and provide that to the 'Trick' Dispatcher who is supposed to enter notes about the occurrence in the trains 'Train Sheet'. The Trick Dispatcher must also communicate the information to the Chief Dispatcher. The Chief must enter the information in narrative form in the Division Unusual Occurrences Log for perusal by Division Officials and then enter the specific car data into the appropriate Car Defect computer application...In the crush of action, for both the Trick Dispatcher and the Chief not everything gets reported as it should. Additionally, every time a car activates a Defect Detector that information is also supposed to be logged and reported through the same systems. I know others that I share the position with don't get everything reported that they are supposed to in Car Defect application....I see their lack of reporting when I go to report what I have to report. As information approximately 45 Defect Detectors are activated one or more times every month and at least 120 trains are stopped by these activations, consider that every time a freight train is stopped you can figure AT LEAST 1 hour delay and if the trains are in the 9000 foot range you can figure 2 to 3 hours of delay for the train being inspected. On one territory there has been installed a highly sophisticated Defect Detector - it detects Wheel Impacts (flat wheels), Overloads and uneven loads - this one detector has been stopping at least one train a day on average and when the wheel impact defects are critical and the car(s) must be set out, the minimum delay is 3 hours and it is more normally in the range of 5 to 6 hours, needless to say when a critical wheel impact occurs, the train gets recrewed.
Other possible solutions to that problem is testing the air brake systems on the cars more often, such as with a Single Car Test Device - see, for example:
WABCO's "Automated SIngle Car Test Device Quick-Start Guide" (2 pages, approx. 185 KB in size) at: http://techinfo.wabtec.com/DataFiles/Leaflets/ASCTD%20Quick%20Start%20Guide%20A.pdf
http://www.grahamwhite.com/main/category.php?C1=19
http://nyab.thomasnet.com/item/test-devices/freight-single-car-testing-device-complete/770604? and/ or
http://nyab.thomasnet.com/viewitems/test-devices/freight-single-car-testing-device-complete?&bc=100|1010
See also the "Undesired Emergency Application Detection System" at: http://www.rrtools.com/CarMaintenance/EmergencyDetectionSystem.asp
Perhaps a broader or more general solution is requiring and implementing more frequent or more 'intelligent' COT&S = "Clean, Oil, Test, & Stencil" of the air brake systems ? I understand that interval can be as long as 8 years for new cars, and then 4 to 5 years thereafter ? See the TSB report linked above at 1.16.1 SIngle Car Testing and the following:
http://www.thegbsgroup.us/CaseStudiesDocs/gbs_rcmhandout%20Fall%202008.pdf
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1215/is_n1_v193/ai_11832873/
Of course, once ECP brakes are more fully implemented, they may reduce the frequency of the problem, as well as make the diagnosis and identification of the too-sensitive car a lot easier.
Finally - Couldn't the passenger/commuter train have pushed or pulled the 9 cars that were left on the main into the clear someplace, so the main could be reopened and get moving again - with appropriate protection, sueprvision, and at Restricted Speed (or less), of course ?
BaltACD: In this instance the 'dead' cars were on #3 track. The Commuter trains operate on #2 track and are operated by a separate commuter entity, not a part of our company. The ONLY time you would EVER have a passenger crew touch a part of a freight train is when doing so is the ONLY way that the passenger train can continue it's trip. Many years ago I had a freight train have engine failure on single track ahead of Auto Train and it could not move...those were the only two trains on the sub-division...had Auto Train cut off it's power and shove the freight train to the first point of clearance. Auto Train power then returned to it's train, coupled up and proceeded...there were NO OTHER alternatives. As I recall the freight train then outlawed at that point of clearance while arrangements were made to get working power to the train.
In this instance the 'dead' cars were on #3 track. The Commuter trains operate on #2 track and are operated by a separate commuter entity, not a part of our company. The ONLY time you would EVER have a passenger crew touch a part of a freight train is when doing so is the ONLY way that the passenger train can continue it's trip. Many years ago I had a freight train have engine failure on single track ahead of Auto Train and it could not move...those were the only two trains on the sub-division...had Auto Train cut off it's power and shove the freight train to the first point of clearance. Auto Train power then returned to it's train, coupled up and proceeded...there were NO OTHER alternatives. As I recall the freight train then outlawed at that point of clearance while arrangements were made to get working power to the train.
zugmann CSSHEGEWISCH: Even something as predictable as a steady 11PM-7AM night shift can cause fatigue issues because it is opposite normal body rhythms. Even a longtime night owl like Larry King observed that you're always somewhat out of sync when working nights. Swing shifts are probably worse, you may know what your hours are going to be but it's still hard to be properly rested. I was always fine with night shifts. First shift is an absolute killer for me. I read a study about how lots of people have a "shifted circadian rhythm". I'm wondering if I may be one.
CSSHEGEWISCH: Even something as predictable as a steady 11PM-7AM night shift can cause fatigue issues because it is opposite normal body rhythms. Even a longtime night owl like Larry King observed that you're always somewhat out of sync when working nights. Swing shifts are probably worse, you may know what your hours are going to be but it's still hard to be properly rested.
Even something as predictable as a steady 11PM-7AM night shift can cause fatigue issues because it is opposite normal body rhythms. Even a longtime night owl like Larry King observed that you're always somewhat out of sync when working nights. Swing shifts are probably worse, you may know what your hours are going to be but it's still hard to be properly rested.
I was always fine with night shifts. First shift is an absolute killer for me. I read a study about how lots of people have a "shifted circadian rhythm". I'm wondering if I may be one.
Charles A. Czeisler MD, PhD (1999). "Human Biological Clock Set Back an Hour". http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/07.15/bioclock24.html. "The variation between our subjects, with a 95 percent level of confidence, was no more than plus or minus 16 minutes, a remarkably small range."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm_disorder
Particularly relevant is the section on chronotypes: larks (daytime folks) or, in your case, owls.
Murphy Siding The premise put forth, is that the other guys are doing better than us, beacause- what? We're stupid? ... Should a person disagree with that premise, he is painted as somehow being backward, stubborn, negative- or stupid...By an extention of that thought process, you're insulting a whole country of Americans, by calling all of us backward, lazy and stupid.... I find it hard to accept that we got that way by being backward, lazy and stupid. I feel that I am living in the greatest country on earth at the moment. Perhaps Merle Haggard said it best: "When you're runnin' down our country boy, you're walkin' on the fihgtin' side of me". I would. however, have the common sense to know that if I insinuated that they were all backward, lazy and stupid, that I wouldn't be accusing them of insulting me when they returned fire. -Norris
The premise put forth, is that the other guys are doing better than us, beacause- what? We're stupid? ... Should a person disagree with that premise, he is painted as somehow being backward, stubborn, negative- or stupid...By an extention of that thought process, you're insulting a whole country of Americans, by calling all of us backward, lazy and stupid.... I find it hard to accept that we got that way by being backward, lazy and stupid. I feel that I am living in the greatest country on earth at the moment. Perhaps Merle Haggard said it best: "When you're runnin' down our country boy, you're walkin' on the fihgtin' side of me". I would. however, have the common sense to know that if I insinuated that they were all backward, lazy and stupid, that I wouldn't be accusing them of insulting me when they returned fire. -Norris
Norris: Apparently, in your world, any criticism of a system, in this case, the railroad management, is taken as saying all the employees are "stupid" a term you used five times in your little rant. No one besides you said that. I don't think employees are stupid. If anything, i wish employees had a management that strove to give them a better and safer work environment, including better work scheduling, even if not perfect. zugman, a rail employee, said much the same. I don't know why you take things that way and distort what others say. Perhaps you are just having a bad day.
BaltACD That was a different problem on a different Sub-division, that I also supervise....and was happening concurrently to the other incident I reported ...Train had multiple air hose coupling issues as it was entering a yard and blocked the commuter trains from leaving their servicing area. The train ended up spending 18+ hours in the terminal and outlawed a crew without ever leaving the terminal with the air issues. The crew that finally got the train out of the terminal only had 4 hours left on their HOS time when they departed and had to be recrewed again enroute to the final destination. With the near 100 degree heat....there were about 8 Sun Kinks that occurred in various places on my territory that had to be repaired. The Heat Order remain in effect with the forecast of 100 again today.
With the near 100 degree heat....there were about 8 Sun Kinks that occurred in various places on my territory that had to be repaired. The Heat Order remain in effect with the forecast of 100 again today.
CSSHEGEWISCH Even something as predictable as a steady 11PM-7AM night shift can cause fatigue issues because it is opposite normal body rhythms. Even a longtime night owl like Larry King observed that you're always somewhat out of sync when working nights. Swing shifts are probably worse, you may know what your hours are going to be but it's still hard to be properly rested.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
schlimm Mottos and selected reading for contributors to this thread; "This is the best of all possible worlds!!" "Everyday, in every way, things are getting better and better." The Emperor's New Clothes The Adventures of Pollyanna
Mottos and selected reading for contributors to this thread;
"This is the best of all possible worlds!!"
"Everyday, in every way, things are getting better and better."
The Emperor's New Clothes
The Adventures of Pollyanna
schlimm The usual, predictable insults when all else fails.
The usual, predictable insults when all else fails.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
schlimm Murphy: I'll review the thread. Since the topic was collisions and how fatigue may contribute, we looked at how scheduled trains might help crews to have a more predictable weekly schedule, so they could get more rest. No consensus because many thought that was impossible. So I brought up the example of railroads in Germany, where there are far more trains of all sort running on less trackage, yet they can keep schedules pretty regularly. Scheduling of anything has a lot more to do with how many objects there are to schedule in a given time and space, not on how much that objects weighs. So I reiterate, ton-miles are irrelevant to what we are discussing, and that is not making a dishonest comparison, merely because you don't understand or agree . But if the extremely long trains composed of very heavy cars causes the system schedule to break down with mechanical problems, as in the example from BaltACD, then that is another issue that should be examined.
Murphy: I'll review the thread. Since the topic was collisions and how fatigue may contribute, we looked at how scheduled trains might help crews to have a more predictable weekly schedule, so they could get more rest. No consensus because many thought that was impossible. So I brought up the example of railroads in Germany, where there are far more trains of all sort running on less trackage, yet they can keep schedules pretty regularly. Scheduling of anything has a lot more to do with how many objects there are to schedule in a given time and space, not on how much that objects weighs. So I reiterate, ton-miles are irrelevant to what we are discussing, and that is not making a dishonest comparison, merely because you don't understand or agree . But if the extremely long trains composed of very heavy cars causes the system schedule to break down with mechanical problems, as in the example from BaltACD, then that is another issue that should be examined.
Murphy Siding I also disagree that it was done more efficiently than it was 90 years ago. Of course, it all depends on your definition of efficiency. If it was more efficient 90 years ago, why did it change?
I also disagree that it was done more efficiently than it was 90 years ago. Of course, it all depends on your definition of efficiency. If it was more efficient 90 years ago, why did it change?
Murphy...read these posts again; read any histories again. Times change, things change. The reasons and changes and effects have all been stated. You must comprehend what has been posted. Several of us have cited history and facts many times. Change happens and the reasons have been made clear.
henry6 I never said they moved more freight. I suggested they made more moves more efficiently, had more trains both frieght and passenger, and moved them from end to end of a railroad with precision unfathomed by today's railroaders and railfans. Ton miles is up, yes; on fewer trains, yes; on fewer miles, yes. But what if the railroads ran as many trains as many train miles today with today's technology? (Then I'd be impressed, to say the least!) Maybe what it boils down to, Murphy, is that my concept of real railorading is so different than your concept that neither one of us can comprehend what the other is saying or means, I mean it, before Conrail or PC, it was a completely different world of machines, men, milage, and concept of what operating a railroad meant.
I never said they moved more freight. I suggested they made more moves more efficiently, had more trains both frieght and passenger, and moved them from end to end of a railroad with precision unfathomed by today's railroaders and railfans. Ton miles is up, yes; on fewer trains, yes; on fewer miles, yes. But what if the railroads ran as many trains as many train miles today with today's technology? (Then I'd be impressed, to say the least!) Maybe what it boils down to, Murphy, is that my concept of real railorading is so different than your concept that neither one of us can comprehend what the other is saying or means, I mean it, before Conrail or PC, it was a completely different world of machines, men, milage, and concept of what operating a railroad meant.
Why compare American railroading to European railroading? Compare any USA railroad of 2011 to any and all USA railroads of the WWII era! Number of movements of both freight and passenger, total efficiency of operation overall. We moved more people, more freight, more trains more efficiently than we do today! We are afraid (and maybe rightfully so) to put a passenger train out on a track an hour before or after a freight train (exaggerated, yes) and vice versa (again exaggerated, but you get my drift), limit the number of trains that can be run based on single track, signaled track, and directional spacing.. Even with all the technological and safety improvements we don't run the number of trains nor the speeds and efficiencies we've done in the past. Safety experts say PTC is the answer while rail management says it isn't. Who is right? Could we go back to running lots of trains at suffecient speeds if we had PTC? Would that be costly to management or would it mean they could actually move more quicker, safer, and make money? Or at least isn't that the idea?
[/quote] I also disagree that it was done more efficiently than it was 90 years ago. Of course, it all depends on your definition of efficiency. If it was more efficient 90 years ago, why did it change?
edblysard It's OK, you can borrow my spare set of hip waders.... coborn35: I feel like half of these guys posting either smoked something or are CN Trainmasters on the DM&IR....
It's OK, you can borrow my spare set of hip waders....
coborn35: I feel like half of these guys posting either smoked something or are CN Trainmasters on the DM&IR....
I feel like half of these guys posting either smoked something or are CN Trainmasters on the DM&IR....
RADIO! REMOTE CONTROL OF INTERLOCKINGS! These two technologies did more to reduce the workforce than anything else. With radio you could contact virtually any train anytime anywhere (remember I said virtually). And with interlockings controlled by dispatchers sometimes thousand of miles away you had two reasons not to hire between 5 and ten people per interlocking (three regular operators, one swing shift, one one day operator, signal maintainer and maybe some kind of trackman). Lineside detectors for hot boxes and dragging equipment plus the inevention of EOTD's allowed for the elimination of the caboose....a long time unsafe practice because of long trains and slack action..and eliminate two positions per train. At one time everyone on the railroad stopped and watched a train go by in an informal (and sometimes mandated) inspection. Trains passing each other, passing interlocking towers/stations, and passing those working the tracks and signals, got a rolling inspections often every few miles. Lineside telephone boxes and hand signals allowed for communication (seemed like everyone knew the hand signals for sticking brakes and stinking hot boxes).. And even if there were no official lines of communication, local employees knew people up and down the line who could be counted on to relay some kind of communication to a train crew in an emergency and in the most informal and unconforming ways. Trains were closely watched and highly regarded.
The big change in both rules and methods of operation that came about in the late 80's was based upon the facts the most of the employee base that was hired after WWII was retiring and needed to be replaced. In replacing that work force another factor was at work...the reduction to 2 man crews. Now a Conductor is the entry level position that introduces one to the railroad. No longer is one a brakeman for several years, learning the ropes (and rules and their application) as a apprentice before assuming the full responsibility of the job of Conductor. Nowadays, the new hire comes through the RR College classes, goes to my carriers educational unit for about 6 weeks, gets 8 weeks or so of OJT working various road and yard jobs as a trainee and then they are 'qualified' as a Conductor on their territory. After a year (and sometimes less) as a Conductor the individual is then sent for Engineer Training in seniority order and after successful completion of about 3 months of training on the mechanics and operation of the various systems of the locomotives the Trainee Engineer is then placed in the field to become qualified on his territory. Well inside of 2 years a individual can go from a complete outsider to operating a 20K Ton train down a 2% mountain grade. Employees get thrown into the deep end fast on today's railroads.
To permit the rapid familiarization of raw manpower to become sufficiently knowledgeable with the rules necessary to operate safely the total rules package had to be simplified....It took years to understand the intricacies of Timetable & Train Order operations....years that the carriers did not have in training their new workforce. Thus things were simplified to CTC and following the signal rules and (depending upon the carrier) DTC (Direct Traffic Control) or TWC (Track Warrant Control) which both govern unsignalled or non-CTC territory.
By the same token, Dispatchers had to be trained with Dispatcher effectively becoming a entry level position.
The carriers recognized that all the 'apprenice' jobs they once had and used to train their workforce for higher levels of responsibility no longer existed and the new hires would have to hit the ground running....thus the big changes in the methods of operation in the late 80's.
AgentKid And say what you will about their salary requests at negotiating time, but the operating rules they helped put into place worked. And sometime during the 1965-1985 time period management seemed to forget or refuse to accept the ideas they had about doing things. Bruce
And say what you will about their salary requests at negotiating time, but the operating rules they helped put into place worked. And sometime during the 1965-1985 time period management seemed to forget or refuse to accept the ideas they had about doing things.
Bruce
That was a different problem on a different Sub-division, that I also supervise....and was happening concurrently to the other incident I reported ...Train had multiple air hose coupling issues as it was entering a yard and blocked the commuter trains from leaving their servicing area. The train ended up spending 18+ hours in the terminal and outlawed a crew without ever leaving the terminal with the air issues. The crew that finally got the train out of the terminal only had 4 hours left on their HOS time when they departed and had to be recrewed again enroute to the final destination.
Paul_D_North_Jr BaltACD: [snipped] I'd like to tell you how it all worked out....but I got off at 0700 and turned the mess over to my relief. As can be seen, the decisions to be made are not between good and bad....but between bad and worse. Happy railroading! Edited to protect the identities of those involved - PDN: A Statement from [Railroad] Regarding the [Route] Line Service Disruption to Trains X47, X49, and X51--June 8, 2011 [Railroad] regrets the significant delays to [Passenger Agency] commuters caused by multiple issues incurred by a freight train en route to [Terminal] this morning. These issues included a mechanical breakdown and the fact that the train crew had to go off duty because it had reached the limit of hours it could work based upon federal law. [Railroad] and [Passenger Agency] representatives were in constant communication throughout the morning, beginning at 6:30 a.m., to attempt to resolve the problem and ensure the flow of timely information to [Passenger Agency] passengers. [Railroad] and [Passenger Agency] will review the events that occurred this morning, and investigate areas for potential improvement. [Railroad] has positioned crews and equipment to resume normal service this afternoon. Again, [Railroad] regrets the inconvenience experienced by [Passenger Agency] riders this morning. Official's NameDirector, Passenger and Commuter Operations[Railroad] Well, thanks for that object lesson in reality - perhaps you witnessed some "beautiful theories being murderd by a gang of brutal facts" ? Although, I'll note only that this may be one of those instances when having a 'protect' crew on standby closer in the metropolitan area might have reduced the total amount of grief incurred. And we've only heard about the effects on the passenger operations - were there no other freight trains also running in the affected area during the disruption that also suffered delays because of it ? [/] And then I see that "Heat Advisories" account of the hot weather's effects on the track's CWR is also introducing 20-minute delays to some of the Passenger Agency's trains tonight . . . - Paul North.
BaltACD: [snipped] I'd like to tell you how it all worked out....but I got off at 0700 and turned the mess over to my relief. As can be seen, the decisions to be made are not between good and bad....but between bad and worse. Happy railroading!
Happy railroading!
Well, thanks for that object lesson in reality - perhaps you witnessed some "beautiful theories being murderd by a gang of brutal facts" ?
Railroading was different 25 years ago or 40 years ago or whatever. The biggest difference is not in the "better" technology today but the fact that per track mile, railroads had probably 5 to 10 times the number of people working for them. Or per ton-mile. Or for any measure you may wish to make. This affects quality of inspections of rolling stock, track maintenance, customer service, communications, the whole bit. And there really is not much that can be done about this while keeping railroads competitive!
henry6 Number of movements of both freight and passenger We moved more people, more freight, more trains more efficiently than we do today Even with all the technological and safety improvements we don't run the number of trains nor the speeds
Number of movements of both freight and passenger
We moved more people, more freight, more trains more efficiently than we do today
Even with all the technological and safety improvements we don't run the number of trains nor the speeds
After I made my last post I went out for supper, but I couldn't stop thinking of the point Henry was making. The big change that happened after steam changed to diesel was that diesels enabled RR's to have to start fewer trains. That coupled with the fact RR's have far fewer T&E employees now and no longer have to call from four lists, and it seems to me scheduling trains and their crews should have improved from the 1950's or 60's.
Management, and some employees like my Dad, used to say that you can't let the unions run the railways. And say what you will about their salary requests at negotiating time, but the operating rules they helped put into place worked. And sometime during the 1965-1985 time period management seemed to forget or refuse to accept the ideas they had about doing things.
Quality control experts may have their place, but an intensive unbiased study of historical railway operations would be a good start to developing safer crew management policies. Newer, fancier technologies is not the simple answer to the problem.
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
coborn35 I feel like half of these guys posting either smoked something or are CN Trainmasters on the DM&IR....
23 17 46 11
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Regarding drawbar or knuckle breaks: is it possible it isn't a case of just better or more frequent inspections? Maybe the technology, which was fine for freight cars of much lighter loaded weight, is more prone to breakage with today's much heavier cars?
petitnj This is clearly a case in need of Quality Control. The rest of the world has realized the importance of every part of a complex system working to have the system function. Once a train is made of many couplers, pipes, valves and hoses they all must function or you end up like the previous sequence. 99.99% is not good enough. Once the railroads take up the "Quality" banner they will recognize the importance of each detail working. I would argue that the railroad could eliminate most of these sequences of failure with more attention spent on inspections and quality control.
I would argue that the railroad could eliminate most of these sequences of failure with more attention spent on inspections and quality control.
Let's review for the statistics and 'root' causes here:
1 UDE on the 8000 ft. Intermodal train = about 130 platforms or about 0.77 % failure rate = 99.23 % performance; alternatively, 100% of the EOT failed = 0 % mission completion.
Another UDE on the 7500 ft. Merchandise train = about 123 cars or about 0.81 % failure rate = 99.19 % performance.
The last UDE in the 34-car Merchandise train was really caused by a pulled drawbar - 1 of 34 = 2.94 %failure rate = 97.06 % performance.
At the moment I can't think of how to evaluate having 4 trains with crews that should complete their runs within HOS if nothing goes seriously wrong - then not having a back-up plan when it does.
But for the mechanical failures - wonder what the total cost of all the train delays, recrews, missed service commitments, etc. adds up to ? Would that be enough to pay for more intensive inspection, frequent testing and replacement of the brake valves and EOTDs to lessen the risk of this happening again ? As we've discussed before, the drawbar break may be a defect that is just not susceptible to being found by present-day inspection techniques (Barrington, Illinois last fall).
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