jeffhergert .....(The only Whipple I'm familiar with was always telling people to stop squeezing the Charmin.)....
.....(The only Whipple I'm familiar with was always telling people to stop squeezing the Charmin.)....
WMNB4THRTL I'm still studying in JH Armstrong's, "The Railroad..." and I have some questions 1. What's a "trainsheet" record? [snipped]
I'm still studying in JH Armstrong's, "The Railroad..." and I have some questions
1. What's a "trainsheet" record? [snipped]
Now here's another one, which is also more historical in nature, going back to when almost every freight train had a caboose, and passenger trains were long:
Back on Page 10 of 13 (currently) of this thread - http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/189960.aspx?PageIndex=10 - it was mentioned several times that "OS" stands for "On Sheet" and/ or "Out of Station", etc. - i.e., the time that a train passed a certain station - all well and good. But for most freight trains of any length - and some slow-moving long passenger trains - that's going to be several minutes elapsed while the train passes.
So which time should have been used to report the passage of the train and entered on the trainsheet - the time when the locomotive went by? Or instead the time when the caboose or last car of the passenger train went past the agent/ operator ?
The only discussion of the point that I can recall - it may have been/ likely was in this article:
- which as I recall, opined that the better practice was to use the time when the caboose passed, because that was the operator/ agent's absolute last opportunity to flag down the rear-end crew and have them stop the train with the connductor's brake valve if necessary. Any supporting or contrary thoughts or opinions ?
- Paul North.
I was hoping this aspect of the question would come up. Here is the procedure as I remember seeing it done.
My Dad would give the train a rolling inspection, and wave to one of the tail end crew as it passes. He would then walk into the station, through the waiting room and into the office. He would sit down at the desk, put on the headset of the dispatchers phone, kick the speaker pedal (the original version of keying a radio, you talked with your foot down on the pedal instead of your thumb on the microphone button), and said "Irricana".
When you had a Dispatcher with a loud phone voice answer, you would hear in reply "Irricana".
Dad would say "OS Irricana, #712 north, Engine 8502 at 12:47K". This was the time he saw on the clock as he entered the office.
The Dispatcher would reply "OS Irricana, #712 north Engine 8502 12:47K".
Dad would conclude by saying "Irricana".
And that would be that.
Military time using such and such "hours" didn't come to the CPR until the end of the sixties, and the word "over" was not used. The station location name of the participant was used at the end of the conversation.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
zardoz jeffhergert: .....(The only Whipple I'm familiar with was always telling people to stop squeezing the Charmin.).... Wow, you certainly dated yourself.
jeffhergert: .....(The only Whipple I'm familiar with was always telling people to stop squeezing the Charmin.)....
Johnny
AgentKid[snipped; emphasis added - PDN] Dad would say "OS Irricana, #712 north, Engine 8502 at 12:47K". This was the time he saw on the clock as he entered the office.
Thanks, Bruce, for that detailed answer/ explanation. Wait'll you see the "Form 19" order that's also there and of which I also got a photo . . .
So it was the time when the caboose went by, plus a few seconds. We can presume that was how the CPR trained him and wanted it done for consistency across its far-flung empire.
One more question: What's the "K" mean or stand for, after the "12:47" ?
Paul_D_North_Jr One more question: What's the "K" mean or stand for, after the "12:47" ?
Simply put, the K stood for "o'clock". It was a 24 hour clock, no AM or PM. But when the system changed to "hours" it was a lot more complicated than that. A number of years ago "Kootenay Central" gave a great explanation of the whole process, but he doesn't seem to be around anymore.
Chicago broke a record today, when the thermometer hit 90. And we were out in it...handling historical society errands (Pat had to guide a park tour), tending the other museum in town for the afternoon (more scoots than freights went by there today, darn!), then taking daughter and grandchildren for a walk in the park to see the flowers (lilacs will be at their peak in a couple of days, tulips are at their peak now, and there are still daffodils around). Our transportation was either on foot or on bicycle--our car hasn't been out since Saturday!
Grandson Nico has it right, he was hot, but "trains are cool!" That, and "I want to see a train now!" (I told him to wait five minutes...it worked.)
By the way, Lombard may be the only town where the local Dairy Queen serves Lilac dipped cones and Dilly Bars (everybody had to have one...the shell is actually grape flavored)! This week only, I suspect.
Also today, UP and Metra were holding an open house in the local station to show the plans for the new pedestrian tunnel that will be built at the station. The tunnel will be about twelve feet in diameter, lighted, and have a walkway about twenty feet below track level. This is about twelve feet below street level from the point where ramps currently go up to the tracks.
I attempted to engage a UP official in conversation about the amount of noise at crossings, and asked why our crossings couldn't be made more like those on the BN line, where the bell cuts off when the train is in the island circuit. I think he was trying to baffle me with$1***$2 telling me that the Illinois Commerce Commission sets the sound levels for warnings (so many decibels a certain distance away), and that they "thought about" the BNSF-style warnings, but decided that it would be too much of a culture shock for people commuting on the UP.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Culture shock.
Yeah, I'll buy that.
Sure.
Yep.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Yea, and I've got some swamp land for sale in the Sahara!!! Best offer takes it!! Hurry, it's going fast!!
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
I can second what AgentKid describes how to determine what time to use for the OS. I've seen it done and, under the agent/operator's supervision, did it way back (dating myself again) at Durant, Iowa on the RI.
The RI and the MILW (and I suspect most railroads, but can't say for our Canadian cousins) had a form for recording the arrival and/or the departure time of trains. On the RI it was called a "Station Record of Train Movement" and had two columns, one for Westward or Southward trains and one for Eastward or Northward trains. Both columns had sub-columns for Train, Arrival and Departure. For trains that didn't stop, the operators I saw put in the word "by" in the Arrival column.
When OSing trains, the operators would state, "OS Durant." When recognized by the dispatcher with the reply "OS," the operator would say (for example) "Extra 245 West by at 203PM, OK on the south side." The RI required operators to report their train inspection. (If someone was watching the other side from the Opr, the report would be "OK both sides.") As AgentKid said, the dispr would repeat the info.
In addition to the train reports, the form had places to record the weather conditions, operator's names on duty, and a space to record train orders in effect but not delivered and other info required for a transfer from the on duty operator to the relieving operator.
The one OS I can clearly remember making is the one where I just said "Extra 245." The dispr never said anything, but the operator (whom I'd known for a few years) brought it to my attention that I'd left off the direction. I never did that the few more times I was able to do it and still remember it 30 plus years later.
Jeff
I was looking at pictures taken of the MacArthur (Free) Bridge in St. Louis. It is a vehicle and railroad bridge over the Mississippi River. The vehicle part is not used anymore. Anyway, what are the items shown in the photo titled "Yellow Things on RR side?" I thought it was an interesting group of photos.
James
Hoping Mudchicken has seen something like these, James, because I can't figure them out. They obviously perform a repetitive chore of some sort, probably below the tops of the ties, but I can't imagine what that would be, particularly on a bridge.
We traveled north for about two and a half hours this afternoon, and when we got out of the car it was about 25 degrees cooler than when we got in! We had dinner at an Italian restaurant near Plymouth, Wisconsin, tonight, sort of an early celebration of our wedding anniversary. Tomorrow (the actual anniversary) we'll visit quilt shops and museums in Plymouth and Cedarburg, then maybe some trains (Duplainville?) before heading home. The original premise for heading up this way (a predawn viewing of the planetary alignment over Lake Michigan) probably isn't going to happen, due to the weather, but It's been a great trip so far, if for no other reason than that we're escaping early midsummer at home.
I'm thinking bolt machine - seems like I've seen one someplace before.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The "Yellow Things on RR Side" photo linked above appear to be Geismar/ Modern Track Machinery's "Coachscrewing Machines" or similar, which is European-talk for a gas-powered screw (or bolt/ nut) driver and remover. Most likely, the rails on the bridge are held down to the tie plates and bridge timbers with lag screws or similar fasteners (instead of the usual cut track spikes) for greater strength and resistance to pull-out, etc. Instead of installing/ driving those screws with hand tools such as a 'T'-wrench, or even a power tool such as an impact wrench (which requires the worker to be bent over most of the time), a bigger rig such as this is used. At the bottom of the front end is a chuck of the appropriate size and shape, which actually screws the lag screw into the timber, and removes it when needed. Under the engine at the back is a hard-to-see set of double-flanged 'trolley wheels' to enable the machine to balance on and move along the rails - the 'Y'-shaped handles at the front which are held by the worker aid in that.
A very Happy Anniversary to Carl and Pat!!
Too bad about the weather
but glad you are having a great trip anyway!!
Hope it gets even better!!
Take care and enjoy!
The Diner says that it's Cannonball's birthday today. Happy birthday, Jim--must be nice to be where it's dry!
We woke up in time for the planetary spectacle; unfortunately, it was fogged out.
A very Happy Birthday to Jim!! Hope it's a great one!
CShaveRR Hoping Mudchicken has seen something like these, James, because I can't figure them out. They obviously perform a repetitive chore of some sort, probably below the tops of the ties, but I can't imagine what that would be, particularly on a bridge.
CShaveRRWe traveled north for about two and a half hours this afternoon, and when we got out of the car it was about 25 degrees cooler than when we got in! We had dinner at an Italian restaurant near Plymouth, Wisconsin, tonight, sort of an early celebration of our wedding anniversary. Tomorrow (the actual anniversary) we'll visit quilt shops and museums in Plymouth and Cedarburg, then maybe some trains (Duplainville?) before heading home. The original premise for heading up this way (a predawn viewing of the planetary alignment over Lake Michigan) probably isn't going to happen, due to the weather, but It's been a great trip so far, if for no other reason than that we're escaping early midsummer at home.
I know what you mean about the temperature changes--at our house it was 58 degrees-15 miles west in Lake Geneva it was near 90!!
Did Pat (and/or you) like Ye Olde Schoolhouse?
Thanks, Paul.
You're welcome. Here's a link to a better view of a similar machine - just that this one is used for horizontal bolts in the joint bars and the like, instead of for vertical lag screws as those others on the bridge are:
https://www.speedyhire.com/product/8011/geismar-tb2-petrol-coach-screw-m-c/productoverview
See also pages 7 - 10, 17 - 18, and 33 - 35, each inclusive (of 103 pages) of the Geismar 2000 Catalog at this webpage (approx. 2.6 MB in size) for these and other similar possible machines: http://www.haratrading.fi/Geismar.pdf
Thanks for the identification of that beastie, Paul!
Jim, the old schoolhouse was pretty neat. I got a couple of old ladies to say what a nice guy I was to chauffeur Pat around to these places and help her with the quilts she makes, etc., etc. So it's a great place! Pat got some interesting and unusual materials there. Nice use of space.
Earlier in the day, we went to the Wisconsin Museum of Quilts and Fiber Arts, which isn't too far from the Schoolhouse. It's currently in an old farmhouse, which severely limits the exhibit space. But when they move into the old barn that's currently being rehabilitated, they'll have at least ten times the space for just exhibits.
The day began at Plymouth, where we visited a quilt store (yes, they liked me there, too) and a couple of bookstores. Between Plymouth and Cedarburg we took a quick trip into North Fond du Lac, where I saw a couple of freight car groups that were new to me: some NOKL covered hoppers with CN logos, and a series of SSAM ore cars with very weathered CN logos, and raised, inward-sloping sides.
After Cedarburg, we went to Mecca (spelled W-a-u-k-e-s-h-a), where I was greeted by none other than Mike Yuhas, who gave me a tour of the advertising department and other business aspects of Kalmbach. (Pat decided to sit this one out, reading some of Kalmbach's magnificent craft magazines in the lobby.) Among the people I met this time were Matt Quandt and Aaron Jors (both familiar names if you check out the regular "Trackside" photo competition here). I also was able to say hi to Andy Cummings, Kat Kube, Angela Pusztai-Pasternak, Kevin Keefe, and Terry Thompson, publisher of Model Railroader, who spent a couple of years as a C&NW employee at Proviso back around 1990. Thanks, Mike, and glad to see you've recovered so well!
We then went to Duplainville, where we caught the westbound Empire Builder (headed by Amtrak 509, followed by a pair of P42s), and a northbound CN freight before braving I-94 toward Illinois. We had a marvelous anniversary dinner at Apple Holler while waiting for a nasty-looking storm to pass through the area. Our return to Illinois was "Bleepin' Golden", both due to sweet light and the brilliant double rainbow that accompanied us most of the way along the Tollway.
We got home before dark, and it would appear that Lombard's lilacs are at their peak right about now. If you can't stop to walk through the park, drive by with the windows down!
My niece sent this to me.
The Good news:It was a normal day in Sharon Springs , Kansas , when a Union Pacific crew boarded a loaded coal train for the long trek to Salina .The Bad news:Just a few miles into the trip a wheel bearing became overheated and melted, letting a metal support drop down and grind on the rail, creating white hot molten metal droppings spewing down to the rail.The Good news:A very alert crew noticed smoke about halfway back in the train and immediately stopped the train in compliance with the rules.The Bad news:The train stopped with the hot wheel over a wooden bridge with creosote ties and trusses.When crew tried to explain to higher-ups they needed to move the train they were instructed not to move the train because Federal Rules prohibit moving the train when a part is defective. Well okee-dokey then, and the pictures tell the rest. As always the government knows what is best for us.
REMEMBER, RULES ARE RULES! Don't ever let common sense get in the way of a Good disaster !I remember seeing a report on this in a Trains forum a while back, and, at the time, did not think of this corollary--the reactions of the crewmen and the people higher up were the opposite of those of the conductor with the carload of mules and his dispatcher.
REMEMBER, RULES ARE RULES!
Don't ever let common sense get in the way of a Good disaster
I tried to copy the pictures, but it did not work well.
In my original rule book, there was a general rule E (two rules ahead of Rule G), which read "In case of danger to the Company's property, employees must unite to protect it." I think the dispatcher should have deferred to the crew's assessment of the situation.
Yes, Johnny, the pictures have been on the Forum at least once.
Forgot to mention finding a couple more of those charmin' Whipple truss bridges on our trip yesterday. The folks at Trains are probably very familiar with the one in Wauwatosa, which takes the old C&NW main line over the old Milwaukee road west out of town. It was built for two tracks, but I think that part of the line has been single-tracked in the past few years.
The other one we was was in Fond du Lac, just south of the CN's yard in North Fond du Lac. No tracks going over it any more (it might be part of a bike path); when both the ex-CNW and ex-SOO lines in the area came under control of the Wisconsin Central, this line was abandoned. (Further north on this line, the drawbridge at Oshkosh, in the process of being replaced, is another example of a multiple-span Whipple truss--with two such trusses forming the swing span.)
Those were bolt machines and PDN got the manufacturer right. Surprised to see them used on bridge work. Hydraulic or Pneumatic drills and wrenches are so much easier to use on bridges.
Probably used to remove vertical camcar, domehead and timber screws (don't see the bevel (rt. angle) head gearbox to remove track bolts from anglebars.....)....for guard timbers, etc. on the deck?
Edit: Nothing else had the proper bit or socket maybe?
Just a little late....Been travellin. Back to Iowa Sunday.
PDN: Somebody wanted to know why you weren't at Lakeville.
CShaveRR In my original rule book, there was a general rule E (two rules ahead of Rule G), which read "In case of danger to the Company's property, employees must unite to protect it." I think the dispatcher should have deferred to the crew's assessment of the situation.
I checked out the bridge at Denison, IA that I previously linked to. It is a Whipple design. There is also one at South Missouri Valley, IA. I forgot to check the one at Arlington, NE over the Elkhorn River. That'll have to wait.
Deggesty CShaveRR In my original rule book, there was a general rule E (two rules ahead of Rule G), which read "In case of danger to the Company's property, employees must unite to protect it." I think the dispatcher should have deferred to the crew's assessment of the situation. Yes, that (or however it is listed in any rulebook) would certainly cover the matter. Would it also give instruction as to how to respond when the contents of a car has caused damage to the structure of the car?
CShaveRR
Yes, that (or however it is listed in any rulebook) would certainly cover the matter. Would it also give instruction as to how to respond when the contents of a car has caused damage to the structure of the car?
Not sure what you're asking, Johnny. The car should be suited to its contents, at least to the type of content, and I don't believe that a shipper would be allowed to knowingly load something into a car that would be likely to destroy it (sand into an Airslide covered hopper, for example). As to improper loading of the car (overloading is probably the most likely thing to cause structural damage, or improper securement of the load), it's the shipper's responsibility to properly load the car, and it is the train crew's prerogative to refuse a car that is obviously improperly loaded.
CShaveRR Deggesty: CShaveRR In my original rule book, there was a general rule E (two rules ahead of Rule G), which read "In case of danger to the Company's property, employees must unite to protect it." I think the dispatcher should have deferred to the crew's assessment of the situation. Yes, that (or however it is listed in any rulebook) would certainly cover the matter. Would it also give instruction as to how to respond when the contents of a car has caused damage to the structure of the car? Not sure what you're asking, Johnny. The car should be suited to its contents, at least to the type of content, and I don't believe that a shipper would be allowed to knowingly load something into a car that would be likely to destroy it (sand into an Airslide covered hopper, for example). As to improper loading of the car (overloading is probably the most likely thing to cause structural damage, or improper securement of the load), it's the shipper's responsibility to properly load the car, and it is the train crew's prerogative to refuse a car that is obviously improperly loaded.
Deggesty: CShaveRR In my original rule book, there was a general rule E (two rules ahead of Rule G), which read "In case of danger to the Company's property, employees must unite to protect it." I think the dispatcher should have deferred to the crew's assessment of the situation. Yes, that (or however it is listed in any rulebook) would certainly cover the matter. Would it also give instruction as to how to respond when the contents of a car has caused damage to the structure of the car?
Deggesty CShaveRR: Deggesty: CShaveRR In my original rule book, there was a general rule E (two rules ahead of Rule G), which read "In case of danger to the Company's property, employees must unite to protect it." I think the dispatcher should have deferred to the crew's assessment of the situation. Yes, that (or however it is listed in any rulebook) would certainly cover the matter. Would it also give instruction as to how to respond when the contents of a car has caused damage to the structure of the car? Not sure what you're asking, Johnny. The car should be suited to its contents, at least to the type of content, and I don't believe that a shipper would be allowed to knowingly load something into a car that would be likely to destroy it (sand into an Airslide covered hopper, for example). As to improper loading of the car (overloading is probably the most likely thing to cause structural damage, or improper securement of the load), it's the shipper's responsibility to properly load the car, and it is the train crew's prerogative to refuse a car that is obviously improperly loaded. Carl, I was thinking of live contents (well-known hybrids) that are known to kick, and could kick part of the side of the car off--and could even hang outside afterwards.It is possible that the situation would exceed the knowledge and thinking ability of the crew immediately concerned with the problem, and an appeal for help in solving the matter would be made to the next higher level, trusting that the man at the next level would be able to join in the effort to protect the company property.
CShaveRR: Deggesty: CShaveRR In my original rule book, there was a general rule E (two rules ahead of Rule G), which read "In case of danger to the Company's property, employees must unite to protect it." I think the dispatcher should have deferred to the crew's assessment of the situation. Yes, that (or however it is listed in any rulebook) would certainly cover the matter. Would it also give instruction as to how to respond when the contents of a car has caused damage to the structure of the car? Not sure what you're asking, Johnny. The car should be suited to its contents, at least to the type of content, and I don't believe that a shipper would be allowed to knowingly load something into a car that would be likely to destroy it (sand into an Airslide covered hopper, for example). As to improper loading of the car (overloading is probably the most likely thing to cause structural damage, or improper securement of the load), it's the shipper's responsibility to properly load the car, and it is the train crew's prerogative to refuse a car that is obviously improperly loaded.
Sounds like someone's been reading a "Treasury of Railroad Folklore" again.
No, Jeff; I did not have to reread it. As I remarked, the incident of the people higher up who cost the UP a lot of money brought to mind the reputed incident in which a conductor had to appeal for help since he could not figure out what to do when one of his cars was damaged. I don't think that Carl has tumbled to it yet, but I hope Paul North is chuckling.
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