Terrible Amtrak accident in rural northern Nevada today. My thoughts and prayers go out to all involved. So very sad.
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
Amen to that, Nance. I heard that one of the casualties was a well-known and well-liked conductor.
James, I'm not sure of any railroads still operating piggyback trailers. In fact, I think CSX is the only railroad whose name appears on any intermodal boxes of any sort, except for tne NS Triple Crown Roadrailers. (This sentence is based purely on my experience; reports to the contrary would be welcomed.)
Just a brief foray to trackside today, in which time I saw two westbound freights. Naturally, the one that would have been more interesting to me was behind the other one, an empty NORX hopper train. The second train, a manifest, appeared to be gaining on the NORX train at first, but for most of the time they matched speeds perfectly. I can imagine that by the time the locomotives reached Glen Ellyn, they could have been neck-and-neck, and holding. Wonder whether they did that all the way to West Chicago. When I came back from the post office, the signals behind these two trains at Finley Road were both flashing yellow; the one behind the hopper train cleared up first, which means that the manifest hadn't pulled ahead any further than when I'd seen them.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Death toll now reported to be three at last check. Praying that's the final number. What a kick in the gut!
Oh no! Now they are saying 4-6 deceased but reports are conflicting, as is so often the case in these types on large-scale incidents.
Thankfully, all of the reports I'm seeing this morning say that only two people were killed: the truck driver and the train's conductor. Another report says that an assistant conductor was severely injured when successfully separating the locomotives from the train consist.
I'll be interested in hearing what they found out about the driver (his condition) and the functionality of the crossing signals. A gravel truck with two trailers wouldn't be easy to stop if one weren't prepared to do it, but pictures of the crossing show that visibility is not a problem at all.
I always seem to be late for some discussions.
Regarding torpedos, there are a few reasons they are no longer used. First, under most conditions trains no longer have to provide flag protection against other trains. Even in dark territory, trains are either operating in their own exclusive authority or if operating in joint limits, at restricted speed looking out for each other.
Second, with the modern "quiet" cabs, there have been cases where the crew didn't here the detonations. Early in my career I've been in two cabs when going over torpedos. The first time was a standard cab, where the condr went out and placed a few for the engr. No problem hearing those! The second time was during an efficiency test with a "comfort" cab. I heard them go off but it was not nearly has noticable has the older cab. (On some engines you have to crack the window a bit to hear if the horn is actually working when pushing the button.)
A third reason would just be the liability from just handling them. (Also a reason you no longer see fusees with spikes on the end of them.) I've heard of cases where improper handling and/or age of the torpedos caused them to go off.
Only once did I hear of torpedos being used for flagging a train that wasn't a test. In that case a section foreman found a track defect and for some reason couldn't contact the dispatcher by radio or phone. He placed torpedos the proper distance on either side and protected the spot the old fashioned way.
Jeff
Yes, thankfully in this case, I think those reports were 'overdone.' So glad it wasn't true! Still so sad.
Like you said Carl, it wasn't a sight obstruction problem. I've seen multiple reports that the gates were working but that they need to verify that the lights were working properly (As of now, there seems to be every indication that they were, from the reports I have seen.)
PS Thanks, Jeff. We were typing at the same time, I think.
Recently, I was talking with a guy from a major RR and he was telling me about one time when they coupled into a car (cut of cars?) with liquid in it/them. He told about a few violent 'kicks' a bit delayed after this was completed.
Anybody else know about this or have experience with this? It was apparently violent enough to jar them around pretty significantly. I do know a little bit about slop load in terms of like a fire dept. water tanker or milk tanker. It's the same principle, I imagine, but I'm curious about this just the same. TIA.
jeffhergert I always seem to be late for some discussions. A third reason would just be the liability from just handling them. (Also a reason you no longer see fusees with spikes on the end of them.) I've heard of cases where improper handling and/or age of the torpedos caused them to go off. Jeff
Another story about growing up in a station. Stations were not required to have torpedoes in their inventory, but for some reason Irricana had one when we moved there. I never actually saw one. I don't remember the backstory, but I guess my brother and me were poking around in stuff and we must have gotten uncomfortably close to where it was. Apparently Dad persuaded the conductor of the next train through to take it off his hands. The conductor told dad he didn't need it as his caboose had its' full compliment, but he figured he could find another conductor who needed one once he got back to Calgary.
So my torpedo story is I never saw a torpedo.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Jeff, I can vouch for the "quiet cab" portion of the problems with torpedoes. Just before they were removed from the rules, or banned, or whatever, our rules (or instructions, or whatever) called for torpedoes to be placed in pairs, one on each rail.
Nance, the "kick" from tank cars is something I can attest to firsthand, because nothing could set a tank car to sloshing like a manually-controlled retarder! My policy (a little more specific than the rules, which only called for the shove to stop while we were handling them) was to stop placarded loads in each of my retarders, just to make sure that the operators of the group retarders could handle them. I'd call attention to some of the loads once I saw how they were behaving, so they'd know what they had to do to slow them down properly.
Pressurized cars weren't a problem and full liquid loads had little room to move in the car. But all you need is a foot or so of room near the top to generate some serious wave action (if the temperature was just right, frost or dew would form either above or below the line of the load at rest, so you'd know what you were up against. Otherwise, it was purely a guess--I never noticed the sloshing to be peculiar to certain commodities.
So, I'd stop the car in the master retarder, and sometimes it seemed to stop a little too quickly. I'd notice a little kick, and let the car go, and it wouldn't start to roll right away. When it did, it would speed up and slow down, speed up and slow down, and then it would hit my intermediate retarder. Hard stop, release the retarder, and you could actually watch the car roll uphill for a short distance! I'd do what I could to nip a little off the speed of the car when it exited, but sometimes you could see the speed vary all the way down into the classification tracks.
I've also been on locomotives when we've had tank cars bump us a couple of times after a joint or a stop. So yes, Nance, that's for real.
Carl, did not tenders have baffles in the tanks to reduce sloshing?
Do you miss handling less-than-full tank cars? From what you wrote, you did have a good handle on dealing with them.
One of the elders in the church in Reform was a Chevron distributor. We never discussed the handling of a less-than-full load, but I am sure that he knew the proper way, for (so far as I know) he always came home safely.
And, I wonder just how full the tank was on the truck that turned turtle on the right angle turn in front of our house when I was growing up. Our house was perhaps 100 feet from the turn and we stayed put; the lady who lived directly across the street from where the truck ended up simply went to visit one of her sisters, who lived about two miles away..
Johnny
Johnny, a local distribution truck may have had several grades of fuel in it, compartmentized, so it wouldn't shift so much.
I believe tenders did have baffles. Tank cars, however, do not, probably because they need to be inspected more often.
Yes, I handled the loads, but it was part of the job, so I miss that aspect no more or less than I do the rest of the job (truth here: yes, sometimes...I miss the amenities, such as access to car characteristic records, equipment traces, train-movement information, and the like; I miss some of the interaction with the people I worked with--I was finally getting some respect around there!--but no, I don't miss having to go to work and spend eight hours or more at a time there, now that I've had the taste of freedom).
Carl, as to relations at work, in general I had good relations with most of the people I interfaced with (there were a very few whom I would rather not have dealt with, but I looked upon it as their problem), whether they were in my area or in another area. Each one in my area had a particular responsibility, but most of us could help someone else in the area.
Working in Stores, I also interfaced with many customers. Some, I could ask for information about their needs, and others--they did not want to be bothered, even if they could make life easier in their own areas of work. Some would even volunteer information or ask if some change could be made in our procedures. I especially appreciated it when a process engineer would tell me of an upcoming change in a process that would make a great change in the usage of this gas or that chemical. And, I could ask for help from this man or that man whose work seemingly had no relation to mine--such as the time we received a drum of ammoniun hydroxide that was brought out in a non-refrigerated truck on a warm day; the truck was filled with NH4OH vapor, and I was not able to drive a forklift into the truck because of my beard (I had been given a waiver by my manager because Ricki really liked seeing me with my beard, so I was not qualified on respirator wear). I had no trouble at all when I asked another man who was respirator-qualified to take the pallet off the truck, because he and I had a good relationship.
Gee, thanks guys; very interesting!!
I have more questions:
1.) When a RR decides to abandon their tracks, do they usually tear them up or leave them for a while to see if they come back into use, etc? I think there could be issues of upkeep (theft prevention), vandalism, liability, among possibly others? However, if they or another RR wanted to use them, it would be very costly to lay it all out again.
2.) Also, is it standard to set the brakes on both ends of a car? I thought it was one end or the other but recently encountered being told to do both. Would this be due to length of train, on an incline, etc or not bc IIRC, the rulebook says to do _____ but I don't remember it giving qualifications on it. I think it's 10% of cars.
3.) In the case of a hot journalbox, what is the SOP? I mean, I imagine, stop the train, check it, but does the car have to be set out? Can it be cooled a bit, serviced and then continue on its way? If so, what does 'servicing' it involve? Does it vary per the situation or...?
Appreciate any help with these.
PS Carl, I know of at least one current rulebook that states that torpedoes will be carried in the loco.
WMNB4THRTL Gee, thanks guys; very interesting!! I have more questions: 1.) When a RR decides to abandon their tracks, do they usually tear them up or leave them for a while to see if they come back into use, etc? I think there could be issues of upkeep (theft prevention), vandalism, liability, among possibly others? However, if they or another RR wanted to use them, it would be very costly to lay it all out again. 2.) Also, is it standard to set the brakes on both ends of a car? I thought it was one end or the other but recently encountered being told to do both. Would this be due to length of train, on an incline, etc or not bc IIRC, the rulebook says to do _____ but I don't remember it giving qualifications on it. I think it's 10% of cars. 3.) In the case of a hot journalbox, what is the SOP? I mean, I imagine, stop the train, check it, but does the car have to be set out? Can it be cooled a bit, serviced and then continue on its way? If so, what does 'servicing' it involve? Does it vary per the situation or...? Appreciate any help with these. PS Carl, I know of at least one current rulebook that states that torpedoes will be carried in the loco.
Jeff: The Bureau of Explosives and the related folks in St. Louis made the storage of torpedoes impossible and the handling of fusees almost as bad.Were we were on the railroad, we were fortunate to have access to surplus millitary 50 Cal ammo boxes which saved us for a while. My problem with torpedoes was was that, invariably, somebody wouldn't pick all of them back up.
Jay: #5 and #6 are gonna need pontoons and outriggers out here, first for western Nebraska (Platte River) and second for Glenwood Canyon. The Eagle, Colorado and Roaring Fork Rivers I saw today were boiling/foaming/turbid/ mean and angry. Water levels in Glenwood Canyon, especially the east end near the Garfield/Eagle County Line are level with the top of embankment in places. Colorado and the joint line are already seeing detour trains from BNSF. UP has a tie gang working just above Dotsero and a steel gang transposing rail in the canyon - when all heck breaks loose, they can be ready to react.
CShaveRR [snipped; emphasis added - PDN] . . . But all you need is a foot or so of room near the top to generate some serious wave action (if the temperature was just right, frost or dew would form either above or below the line of the load at rest, so you'd know what you were up against. Otherwise, it was purely a guess--I never noticed the sloshing to be peculiar to certain commodities. So, I'd stop the car in the master retarder, and sometimes it seemed to stop a little too quickly. I'd notice a little kick, and let the car go, and it wouldn't start to roll right away. When it did, it would speed up and slow down, speed up and slow down, and then it would hit my intermediate retarder. Hard stop, release the retarder, and you could actually watch the car roll uphill for a short distance! I'd do what I could to nip a little off the speed of the car when it exited, but sometimes you could see the speed vary all the way down into the classification tracks. . . .
So, I'd stop the car in the master retarder, and sometimes it seemed to stop a little too quickly. I'd notice a little kick, and let the car go, and it wouldn't start to roll right away. When it did, it would speed up and slow down, speed up and slow down, and then it would hit my intermediate retarder. Hard stop, release the retarder, and you could actually watch the car roll uphill for a short distance! I'd do what I could to nip a little off the speed of the car when it exited, but sometimes you could see the speed vary all the way down into the classification tracks. . . .
Would the same thing happen with 2 tank cars coupled together ? If those cars were the same length, I could see the harmonic wave action being synchronized; but if their lengths were significantly different, the internal wave timings might cancel each other out . . . ?
EDIT: There's a little project for a student at about the master's level in physics or fluid mechanics: Do an analysis and write a little piece of software - an "app" ? - for the car retarder controls to regulate the rate of deceleration of a partially loaded tank car so as to minimize that effect. In addition to that data, the car's length - and most importantly, it seems to me, the viscosity of the fluid inside - would seem to be the most important parameters to be considered. In a way, this harmonic problem is similar to the covered grain hoppers that used to rock themselves off the track whenever they encountered a series of low joints/ poor cross-level in jointed rail track at certain 'critical' speeds in the 15 - 20 MPH range, etc.
Or what about a unit train of ethanol tank cars ? Most train handling starts and stops would be smooth enough or separated by enough time and attenuated by the slack action that only a few cars would be involved at a time, and some would cancel out each other. But a fast stop would have the slack running in and all the cars stopping at about the same time, so the collective "impulse" might be considerable. A dynamometer car record of drawbar pull/ draft and push/ buff would show that effect - if any - pretty well.
Thanks for sharing all that, Carl. It ought to be in "Railroad Reading" in Trains sometime.
- Paul North.
Thanks for the compliment, Paul!
We wouldn't often get the occasion to see how two tank cars together would handle, since if they were being cut off together in our yard, they'd (obviously) be for the same classification, and the probabilities would favor their being of the same size, and loaded with the same commodity. I'm sure this wouldn't hold true in the course of handling a train, though.
In the case of our hump, it was more amusement than problem for me, or just something to deal with.
In an ethanol train, I would hope that the cars would be loaded fully enough to minimize wave action. Of course, since the cars aren't insulated, care has to be taken to allow room for expansion of the commodity as the temperature increases.
Paul, while we're handing out compliments, I was remiss in not thanking you for presenting your impressions of your Amtrak trip. I don't see any Amtrak trips in my immediate future, but checking out that line (New York to Boston) is something on my "bucket list".
My own experiences so far today have been interesting, in both the good and the bad senses. I attended our church service out in Lilacia Park, and it was interrupted by no trains of any sort on the UP main line across the street. The westbound Metra scoot came through at close to schedule, at the conclusion of the service, but the eastbound, due 15 minutes earlier, was a no-show for another five minutes after that. And it stopped and stayed in Lombard for a good five minutes or better. I knew that there were a lot of passengers waiting to board..."Taste of Chicago" is going on this weekend. What I didn't find out until later was that they all had to board through one entrance, because the train was on Track 2 (I had moved to the crossing so I could confirm this). Why wasn't it on Track 1? Waiting for the train to leave was a stack train on Track 1, waiting to follow it eastward. I don't know if he'd gotten to Track 1 ahead of the scoot and been delayed or what, but this was certainly not a good day to be restricting heavy passenger loadings to one entry, at some of the busiest stations along the west line (the new crossovers should be able to minimize this).
Before the stack train cleared "my" crossing, an eastbound manifest came into view, following the scoot on track 2. Until the block signals are in service on that line, he was probably receiving "positive blocks" from the scoot ahead, announcing when they were out of the stations ahead.
(Meanwhile, I was complimented by several people at church for keeping the service from being disrupted by trains. Not quite sure how to take that...)
Nance, most cars only have one hand brake to set. Cabooses, and possibly some passenger cars, are the exceptions you'd run into; a lot of heavy-duty flat cars have hand brakes on both ends as well.
Guess you were right about the death toll from the Amtrak wreck, too, unfortunately. This morning's reports say that there are six confirmed dead, 22 still missing.
Back to work before lunch: two new series of cars to check out, courtesy of that last manifest train! After lunch, we have to go out and clean the gutters--things are lush and green up where they shouldn't be!
Dang, one time when I really wish I WAS wrong!! So sad.
Carl, I see that your church has had its summer service in the park. Our church waits until the second Sunday in July, and goes out to a Salt Lake City park that is just on the east side of Parleys Summit, off I80. There is no danger of train noise there, but the cries of disappointed golfers may rend the air.
As to train noise during church, when I was in Wesson, Miss., I would wait until the IC train (just across the street from the church) had passed (three Geeps could move 180 cars fairly quickly), and then resume the service. One morning, a train began coming through after Sunday School, and it was moving very slowly, for there were only two Geeps pulling 212 (my count); the dispatcher must have desperate to oder sucha move. It was by before the time for worship, though. I have talked with a minister who served the congregation occasionally after I left, and he told me he did not give in; he must have had a good pair of lungs.
Johnny, our church holds outdoor services only during June and the first week in July. It used to hold them there all summer (one service out of two), but now that the church building has been air-conditioned it has been deemed as a venue to be more desirable, less allergenic, and less likely to be disrupted by planes and trains.
Carl, our church's park service is, perhaps, a little more sophisticated than yours--it is also a picnic with all sorts of games after the food is mostly gone.
The most difficult part is making certain that we are able to reserve the second Sunday in July; about the first Monday in March reservations may be made, and to be sure that you get the day that you want at least two persons spend most of the night before (outside, of course) at the place which accepts reservation requests. So far, I have not been asked to participate in this chore.
It is several years since Ricki has gone because of bad footing at the picnic ground; when she was able to drive, she would drive to another church, but now I take her to another church so she is able to attend worship (I also try to take her at least once each month that I do not have special responsibilities at our church).
Hello everyone.
I had my scanner on for the first time in a long time and while listening to a crew repeat a message I was struck by a question I have been meaning to ask for a number of years.
In the course of repeating a message the time was mentioned. I only mention this because my question applies to all situations where it occurs. The time the message was issued was 07:27. When repeating the message the conductor said, "naught seven two seven, n-a u-g-h-t s-e-v-e-n t-w-o s-e-v-e-n". In the US do you say zero z-e-r-o or do you use naught? If you use one instead of the other, is it a regional thing, or does it depend on the rulebook you use?
I realize if I have to explain it, it probably means you don't, but naught is British English for zero.
Either one is acceptable. Mostly around here you will hear "zero," but once in a while you will still hear someone use "naught." Usually those that use naught have been around the railroad for quite a while, newer people use zero.
I use either, depending on mood and how many zeros and their placement in the number. I was once rebuked by a dispatcher for using naught. She said, "While naught is acceptable, it makes it harder to understand the individual numbers." (I think the number, on an engine, was something like 8080.) She had worked way back for the RI has an operator. She would be familiar with using naught, has it was required then in the rule book when repeating train orders; " 205, two-naught-five..."
Ed Brunner in his article on "The Big Train" (RI's 57, GM autoparts) in Trains some years back recalls about a discussion between him and another operator on the proper way to spell naught in train orders. One (Ed IIRC) used naught because that is the way the rule book spelled it. The other guy used nought because it appears in the dictionary and just to be different.
Jeff, I think it's great that you had a knowledgeable dispatcher who at least offered an explanation for her preferences, and knew the difference. People like that in that position aren't always easy to come by.
I'm pretty sure that the GTW train orders I used to collect said "naught" in the places where it was written out (mileposts, mostly). Don't know whether they're still in the dungeon somewhere.
I used to get a kick out of listening to operators repeating engine numbers--on the C&O, they had to spell out the numerals of the engine numbers. The most fun was with C&O 5888, a GP7 that was regularly assigned to our branch because of its steam generator.
Here in the NorthEast US the old PRR used to designate an "Ought" Track for "0" (zero) track. Don't know whether that usage carried over into train orders and other similar communiques with zeros in them. Some old-timer Pennsylvania Dutch men would use "naught' from time to time - sometimes slurred into "naaawww-thing" !
Thanks for the information. I don't know which would be worse to hear spelled out over a staticy radio, 8080 or 5888.
In "my" case, radio wasn't being used at all--this would have been over the dispatchers' phone line, which was in good condition (don't ask how I know that!).
AgentKid Thanks for the information. I don't know which would be worse to hear spelled out over a staticy radio, 8080 or 5888.
8888 !
"Uhh --- was that 3 "eights" that you just spelled out . . . or 4 ???"
CShaveRR I'm pretty sure that the GTW train orders I used to collect said "naught" in the places where it was written out (mileposts, mostly). Don't know whether they're still in the dungeon somewhere.
Dan
CNW 6000CN's RTCs use the 'naught' to reference a zero for in radio communications all the time. I do recall listening to a crew member being chided over the air for saying "oh" for the zero.
Great point!! Easily understood and much shorter to spell!!
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