Trains.com

Trackside Lounge--second quarter, 2011

40429 views
521 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, May 6, 2011 7:34 AM

Might take advantage of good weather today and appropriate a platform bench somewhere.  Or ride into town and see if some PRR E units have arrived.  Can't do much on Train Day tomorrow, so today just might turn into my Train Day.


Much later edit:  didn't do any of the above.  Relaxed at home, nursing a jumpy tummy, and working on sightings from the vacation.  It can now be told:  I got 17 new (to me) reporting marks from private companies.  A few more were unusual for me to see, but looking back in my records I found those. 

Came to one decision today...we may be (temporarily) lifting our boycott on trips to Wisconsin next week.  (Political protest--I won't go there in here.)

Now the clouds have moved in a bit, and the sky has been spitting on occasion. 

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: MP 175.1 CN Neenah Sub
  • 4,917 posts
Posted by CNW 6000 on Thursday, May 5, 2011 6:49 PM

cherokee woman

Carl and Nan, thank you both for the birthday wishes!  Much appreciated.

Holy Cow!  It's your birthday CW?  Many happy returns and I guess I better watch the calendar more closely.

Dan

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Louisville, KY
  • 9,002 posts
Posted by cherokee woman on Thursday, May 5, 2011 2:21 PM

Carl and Nan, thank you both for the birthday wishes!  Much appreciated.

Angel cherokee woman "O'Toole's law: Murphy was an optimist."
  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, May 5, 2011 9:36 AM

Uh....................like I said, there is no 'groan' emoticon; we need one! Actually, it's sad but true; they ARE downsizing products but raising the prices!

Happy birthday to Cher.

Thanks for the good wishes; we thought it WAS healed but I was, unknowingly, too quick to ditch the cast boot, so now I get to pay with a min of four more weeks (at least it's removable for the shower!) Haste makes waste.

Sympathy to the friends and family of this gentleman.

Well, look at it this way, your day will still be fun and interesting, just in a different way!

I'm hoping to get more studying done but we'll see how the day goes! If so, I'm pretty sure - I'll be back, with questions!

 

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Thursday, May 5, 2011 9:09 AM

Yeah, well...

Everyone's making all of these jokes now about a boatload of mayonnaise being lost at sea.  The actual explanation of Cinco de Mayo is slightly more uninteresting:  it's a proposal to downsize the usual quart-sized jars of the stuff by 20 percent.  An effect of inflation, you know.

Happy birthday to Cher, over in the Diner.

Our sympathies to a certain gal with a broken foot...mend quickly!

And condolences to family, friends, and acquaintances on the passing of Richard Steinheimer.  Somebody I wish I knew.  As is the case with Alzheimer's, he probably "died" a long time ago, and his passing yesterday is just a release.

Few trains yesterday; too busy.  This afternoon we have to keep an eye on a couple of grandchildren, far away from any tracks.  Maybe I can get some work done.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Wednesday, May 4, 2011 9:24 AM

SmileSigh

(I couldn't find the 'groan' emoticon.) Wink


Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Wednesday, May 4, 2011 9:19 AM

In the Diner they're celebrating Nanaimo Dale's birthday (Happy birthday, Dale--miss seeing your "reference" posts in the Forum!); elsewhere they're celebrating Star Wars Day ("May the Fourth be with you"). Pat and I just have too much going on today.  Might get a couple of swings by the tracks in, though (though I'd prefer a good bench or lawn chair...ha!).

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Denver / La Junta
  • 10,820 posts
Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, May 3, 2011 10:07 PM

jeffhergert

A picture of a dispatcher and the tools of his trade from days past.  The various "tools" are marked.

http://www.halcyon.com/tawhite/dsequip.html

Jeff     

Could pass for the Colorado Division First District & Branch dispatcher's desk at La Junta (ATSF 1962-1996, one of three stations at La Junta, the others had CTC work stations at them) when I hired-on in 1980. The two of the three dispatchers stations now residee in the Otero County Museum.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania
  • 13,456 posts
Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:52 PM

Carl.........Had lunch once again {today}, with our couple we've mentioned in our conversation of "Tom's Steak House", and that means {Sherry}, the one with the very sharp memory, and we had a chance to discuss the attachment you emailed me a few days ago.  I had emailed it to her. 

Her answer to my question "was that it..." ?  She thought it very well was.  I did a bit more thinking about when it was and I believe it was 48 years ago.  We talked about it mentioning the rather high price now, and she related it was "expensive" when we were there.....I agree, but the steaks sure were good.  She agreed with me of the open brick like oven where one could see them being prepared.

So much for that trivia run....but it was fun.

Quentin

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, May 2, 2011 10:04 PM

See "SIMPLE EXAMPLE OF STRATEGIC PLANNING - THE TOOLS - TRAINSHEET" at: http://www.halcyon.com/tawhite/just/exe1.htm and then these webpages with simple illustrations: 

http://www.halcyon.com/tawhite/just/exe2.htm

http://www.halcyon.com/tawhite/just/exe1a.htm 

http://www.halcyon.com/tawhite/just/exe3.htm

This series of short articles may be of interest: http://www.halcyon.com/tawhite/just/justnx.htm 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Calgary AB. Canada
  • 2,298 posts
Posted by AgentKid on Monday, May 2, 2011 8:21 PM

CShaveRR

you might have heard the expression "O.S." for reporting a train's passage.  "O.S." stands for "On Sheet",

Oh dear, I really hate to take exception to what you say, or it could be a Canada/US thing but I learned even before I could read that OS stood for "Out of Station".

Further on in the discussion there was a point raised that even has me going. How were the passages of trains at lineside stations recorded. The three stations my Dad held were all Divisional Points; where one Sub. joins another, but weren't crew change points, and we had Train Registers.

Train Registers were filled out by the train conductors, and the content and form were remarkably similar to that of the Train Sheets in front of the Dispatcher. However in the interests of train flow most sub's would, in their special instruction in the ETT, list exceptions to the rules where Registers had to be filled out.

But this still raises the question of where did Station Agents record the passage of trains. I do know there was nothing that looked like a Train Sheet or register. Given the railway's fondness for paper work and redundant checks and balances there had to be something. I am going to have to look into this further.

Bruce

 

So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.

"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere"  CP Rail Public Timetable

"O. S. Irricana"

. . . __ . ______

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Monday, May 2, 2011 5:15 PM

Got out this afternoon to run the payday errands.  Since the day was sunny (but still cool), this trip included a bike ride to and from Elmhurst and a check of the intervening signal-bridge installation sites.  Not much has changed over the past ten days.  However, there are signs in Lombard saying that the St. Charles/Grace Street crossing will be closed Monday, May 16, for ten days (good timing this year...Lilac Festival ends on the 15th).  That should give them time for making the finishing touches on the control point--the crossing itself was relaid and surfaced last year.

Had one somewhat thrilling experience while train-watching in Elmhurst.  The first freight I saw was a westbound train of empty EDGX coal gons.  Two of GE's finest on the point of about 135 gons.  They pulled out of the yard, through the Park crossovers at a steady pace.  When the train got through the crossovers, speed immediately picked up, accompanied by the cloud of black exhaust and a noticeable noise from the GE at the hind end, still a couple of blocks away.  The speed increased noticeably right away, and the train was rolling at 40 or better by the time the DP passed me, still accelerating.  The timing of this move was perfect in sight and sound--made all the more thrilling by the knowledge that it was orchestrated from the head end, a good 7000 feet down the line.  There's nobody back there!

And more good timing, orchestrated from Omaha:  as soon as the train cleared the crossovers, the signal on track 2 changed to permit an eastbound train to enter Proviso.  Coincidentally, it was a loaded EDGX coal train for Sheboygan.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,901 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, May 2, 2011 4:22 PM

A picture of a dispatcher and the tools of his trade from days past.  The various "tools" are marked.

http://www.halcyon.com/tawhite/dsequip.html

Jeff     

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: MP 175.1 CN Neenah Sub
  • 4,917 posts
Posted by CNW 6000 on Monday, May 2, 2011 12:38 PM

Here's an interesting view of part of the WSOR's system.  Not my picture and if you click the large version - be warned it's HUGE!
Busy Days

Dan

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, May 2, 2011 11:03 AM

The agent/operator at each station also kept a trainsheet, recording the trains that went past during his time on duty. It, of course, did not have to be detailed as the dispatcher's sheet. I recall that about 1965 the storage area of the IC/MSC station in Brookhaven, Miss. (a three-trick, or continuous station), was cleaned out, and stacks of trainsheets were found.

The life of the d/s is not easy, and he is subject to abuse by people who do not fully understand all that he has to deal with. At times, when I was living in Wesson, Miss., I listened in on the dispatcher's wire during the day, and his voice seemd to be somewhat tired.

Johnny

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, May 2, 2011 8:53 AM

Some partial answers to Nance's questions above:

1.  Giant "spreadsheet" kept up to the moment by the DiSpatcher of when and where each train went by a station - "On Sheet", or "OS" - train and loco nos., Conductor and Engineer Names, etc. - sometimes also the Orders that have been issued to each train, etc.  Let's see if BaltACD, Agent Kid, jeffhergert, etc. can supplement that. 

2.  To avoid confusion, mistakes, misunderstanding, etc., most typically of the sort "The station agent said it was green, but when I got there it was red".  The crew -and only the crew - is responsible for observing the signal aspects and complying with them.

3.  Long drawbars - such as on long cars - and bad track conditions - particularly bad "surface", such as dips at road crossings - are the usual culprits.  A fully loaded car with its coupler at the low end of the acceptable range, next to an empty car with its coupler at the high end of the range, can also be a factor.  Not common, and less so now, with more $ available for inspections and preventative maintenance, etc. 

4.  See Al Krug's essay on "Freight Train Air Brakes of North America" under "Locomotive Brakes" and "Independent Brakes" at:

http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/brakes.htm#locomotivebrakes

 http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/brakes.htm#independents

5. See also Al Krug's essay on "How Much Force can a Coupler Withstand?" at:

http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/drawbar.htm

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Monday, May 2, 2011 8:36 AM

1.  One of the duties of the dispatcher was to maintain the trainsheet for his tour of duty.  It would contain information about every train under his control (engines, crew [or at least C&E], number of cars), as well as the times at which they were reported past stations by the operators on duty.  Nance, you might have heard the expression "O.S." for reporting a train's passage.  "O.S." stands for "On Sheet", and this would be the sheet that they are on.

2.  Consider a train coming across an approach aspect at a distant signal.  The engineer gets on the radio and says "we have an approach here at ____.  Will you be lined up for us?"  The operator says, "Sure--come ahead!".  The engineer moves at track speed on the operator's say so, but the operator, for whatever reason, can't line him up...say the opposing movement took a little longer to clear than the operator expected.  So now you have an engineer moving at track speed coming up to a stop signal...not a good scenario, but one which would be prevented by this rule.

3.  Used to happen regularly on our hump--the couplers would slip past each other near the crest because of the vertical curve.  It was most common on auto racks, with their long drawbars (which would only me made heavier by shelves or Type F couplers).

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,023 posts
Posted by tree68 on Monday, May 2, 2011 8:11 AM

#3 - Standard couplers have no vertical "stops" - given enough vertical travel, it would be possible for them to travel far enough that they'd uncouple.  That would require upwards of a foot to eighteen inches of such movement - a pretty extreme condition for sure.

Somebody's image of a shelf coupler on Flikr.

It happens on model RR's, where maintaining prototypical track tolerances is rather difficult.  That's one reason model couplers are usually actually oversized.

Tank cars now have couplers which will resist vertical movement - specifically to reduce the possibility of a coupler puncturing the end of a tank car in the event of a derailment.

#4 - As I recall, it has to do with not sliding the wheels of the locomotive.

#5 - Stress on the coupler knuckles is already pretty significant, even without slack action.  Slamming the cars back and forth against each other (or their couplers, actually) intensifies that many times over.  This is why it's important for engineers to know their territory - one has to anticipate the slack action in order to prevent it.  When it's happening, it's too late.

And it doesn't take much of a grade to get one in trouble.  A 1% grade is pretty significant on a railroad, but just looking at it you often can't tell there's even a grade.  Throw in curves, both from the effects they have on the train and the fact that they can mask a grade change, and you can get behind the power curve in no time.

Pay attention to the line during the trip to Carter later this month.  It's bad enough with a few passenger cars.  Imagine a 100 car freight train...  I'll be student conductor that day (still learning part of the territory - I'm good north of Otter Lake), but I'll try to point some key parts out to you.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, May 2, 2011 3:25 AM

i the do not have the proper words for last night's accomplisment and will leave it to persons who can state it much better than I can  Great job seals   !!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: MP 175.1 CN Neenah Sub
  • 4,917 posts
Posted by CNW 6000 on Sunday, May 1, 2011 10:27 PM

Thanks to Carl and Larry for your answers.  That bugger has mystified me for a while.

Interesting national news tonight...let's hope nothing retalitory happens. 

Dan

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Sunday, May 1, 2011 10:01 PM

I'm still studying in JH Armstrong's, "The Railroad..." and I have some questions

1. What's a "trainsheet" record?

2. It states, "Interchange of information as to the aspect of signals between station employees and train crews is forbidden." I think I might have an idea on this one, but I'm not sure.

3. "Under extreme conditions it is possible for couplers to "slip by" in a moving train." WHOA!! That sounds nasty; does this happen much, or was it more just in the days gone by, or...?Is there a way to prevent this now?

4. Why is it so important to bail-off the independent? I know it is real imp. but I don't know/remember why.

5. ..."Management of this slack to avoid breaking the train in two is one of the biggest challenges to the engineer's skill." Well, I don't doubt that it is a big challenge, but really--break the train in two if mishandled?! Again, does this happen very often. Is it just seat time and being real careful to avoid this, or...?

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, May 1, 2011 9:36 PM

Just caught your picture, Dan, and Larry's response.  That is a "Pressure-Flow" covered hopper car, probably built in the 1960s or early 1970s by the Union Tank Car Company.  Most of the examples I recall were used to transport various chemical salts, though starches, sand, and fly ash (or perhaps clay, in your neck of the woods) would also be possibilities.  I'm not sure what Transmatrix is, or whose commodities they haul in their exotic feet of tank and covered hopper cars.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania
  • 13,456 posts
Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, May 1, 2011 9:34 PM

.....I'll try Sherry on that one Carl....We'll see what she says.

Quentin

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, May 1, 2011 9:16 PM

Still nothing that rings a bell, Quentin.  I can think of three places in Elmhurst (all of them along North Avenue, Illinois Route 64) that would fit the old-house-turned-restaurant category.  Two of them are gone, and the remaining one has been pretty much the same for years.  And none of them were steak houses, to the best of my memory.

However, Google might be our friend here:

http://www.yelp.com/biz/toms-steak-house-melrose-park

Melrose Park isn't that far east of Elmhurst, and the suburbs do tend to blend in with each other.  Coincidentally, this is on North Avenue as well.  Look familiar?

________________

We spent much of our afternoon after church volunteering at the Lombard Historical Society's booth at the Lilac Festival's arts and crafts fair.  Historical Societies aren't usually artsy and craftsy, but we had reproductions of the 1930s-era posters promoting the Lilac Festival, as well as a few handmade items from various LHS members (Pat made a lot of bonnets and "princess" doll dresses), among other things.  We also had kid-sized "Future Lilac Queen" T-shirts (and we have a pair of granddaughters who now own them!).  No hugs from this year's Lilac Queen...we didn't know her (it was last year's queen who was a lifelong friend of ours...her life, I mean!).  I could see the tracks from our booth, and things were fairly busy, but nothing spectacular.  There was a grain train, empty hoppers, a stack train, an auto train, and a manifest or two, as well as the regularly-scheduled scoots, in the three hours we were there.



Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania
  • 13,456 posts
Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, May 1, 2011 7:23 PM

Carl........Pursuing our restaurant conversation just a bit further....We had Sunday lunch today, with the same couple that accompanied us years ago on our Chicago outing, and {Sherry}, advised me...{She has a steel trap for a memory}, the "Tom's Steak House" was in Elmhurst.  Just a bit east of you....and the restaurant was in a large older home...that had been converted to this establishment.

Quentin

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,023 posts
Posted by tree68 on Sunday, May 1, 2011 5:13 PM

Dan - I found a reference to it (and an apparently identical sister, 300007) that refers to it as a covered hopper, pressure differential.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: MP 175.1 CN Neenah Sub
  • 4,917 posts
Posted by CNW 6000 on Sunday, May 1, 2011 4:21 PM

Carl,

I need your expertise here.  Ever see one of these: http://flic.kr/p/9DDiSR ?  There are a couple that seem to go between Green Bay, WI and Stevens Point, WI on CN's A415/A416.  Looks like a tanker or a hopper or a tanker...fish or cut bait, ya know?  Any thoughts?

Dan

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, May 1, 2011 3:22 PM

I was going to say that it was probably a culvert the blew out.  There didn't seem to be any other place for the water to go under the tracks there, yet it was clearly flowing in that direction.

I'd venture to guess that the replacement culvert will be larger.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: MP 175.1 CN Neenah Sub
  • 4,917 posts
Posted by CNW 6000 on Sunday, May 1, 2011 3:11 PM

zardoz

 WMNB4THRTL:

Thanks, zardoz! It is unbelievable!!! Not sure what the scariest part of that is but I can't stop watching it!! Mostly grateful no one got hurt!!

 

I can't help but wondering that if the railroad knew enough about the location to have someone on-site, why had they not done some construction there to divert or at least mitigate the effects of the water flow. From what I can tell from the video, it sure looks like a location that has had water flow issues previously.

Perhaps if MC sees this, he might enlighten us.

Maybe they had some kind of culvert/structure there that simply got overwhelmed.  That is what happened here:
IC 6204 Derailed

Dan

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Sunday, May 1, 2011 9:21 AM

Yes; I hope someone can! This is so scary.

It reminds me of a tragedy near my hometown many years ago during a flood that washed out an earthen area (kind of like a bridge, as it gave the road access to an area, but solid--sorry, don't know the technical term for that location) and about 7 people lost their lives.

Speaking of so very sad, the news this am reported that death toll is over 340 (not counting the 77 approx. who were lost in that earlier round) but that at least 600 are missing and many/most are feared lost. Too sad for words. They said we had 6 times the number of tornadoes than normal for April!

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy