Trackside Lounge: 1Q 2011

[tree68]

Nance - you can always check out one of the railcams linked from Trains.  I kinda like the Netherlands cam - lots of traffic and sound, so you can leave the cam running in the background while you're doing other things and just check it out when you hear the crossing bells...

I don't know where you live, but most of the map sites show tracks, so you should be able to figure out what you can get too.  Finding a spot to 'fan' isn't usually hard - just respect private property (including the railroad). 

Figuring out how much traffic you might see on a given line can be a real puzzle, though.

[WMNB4THRTL]

Great, Larry; thanks! That is a really cool site. I'd heard about it in passing but could not locate the actual website address. Yes, I keep forgetting about the US ones linked from Trains.

As for local, I can hear our local shortline from the house, but they only run about twice a day. Even at that, I have yet to figure out their schedule. Also, there doesn't seem to be a safe, legal spot locally to watch them from. There may be some place, but I haven't located it yet. Maybe warmer weather will help me on that one.

I guess, if all else fails, I could go to the Amtrak track bc they see a lot of freight, etc trains through there, too. My concern there is, with all the security these days, will that draw negative attention? Hhmmm, maybe my buddy who used to live out here can give me some pointers, too.

At any rate, thanks again; I really appreciate the help. Oh, and of course, to Paul, too, for rail creep!

[CShaveRR]

Wow...I have to catch up before I can go back to documenting some SRN box cars' histories (that's tonight's project).

Paul, your rationale for waiting is on the mark.  Our ground, however, has softened considerably over the past week (judging from our sump pump!).  I'm pretty sure they're watching this.  I know that they dug down pretty well on the switches that were already put in, but that was last fall.

Johnny, we had three guides working the tours--we divided the groups into thirds as closely as possible, and when it came time to move, the guides stayed with the groups, so there was less chance that information would be duplicated.  We kept the groups moving from room to room without getting in each others' way--that involved one group going outside from one entrance to the other, but it worked.

Larry, Nance lives significantly closer to you than I do! 

Good news...Mike Yuhas is home from the hospital, building up strength.

[WMNB4THRTL]

Hi; does anyone know the traffic control method that controls the intersection shown on the Rochelle Rail Cam? Thanks.

[tree68]

As I recall, it's an automatic interlocking, and is first-come, first-serve.

Whoever hits the appropriate circuit first gets the nod. 

Which is supposedly why you'll see two trains crossing the diamond, or a train "dragging it's feet," so another train can get in without waiting for opposing traffic.

In auto traffic terms, it's like traffic lights with sensors in the pavement.  Hit the sensor and the light changes to your favor (or holds the light against other traffic until you've had a chance to clear). 

[WMNB4THRTL]

OK, thanks.

I have a few more questions.

1. What does it mean when they say A-B or B-B, etc? I'm pretty sure it has to do with a loco's trucks, but...?

2. What is a war bonnet paint scheme? Why is it called that?

3. OK, I know this might be review (sorry) but I still can't figure out these terms like: carbody and covered wagon styles. (Are these two the same?)

Thanks for the help, folks.

[CShaveRR]

1.   Doubt that you'll be seeing any A-B locomotives anytime soon, Nance!  Yes, that's basically the wheel arrangement of diesel locomotives.  A "B" truck has two powered axles, so a "B-B" locomotive is your basic four-axle locomotive.  Can you figure out a "C-C"?  More difficult would be an A1A-A1A locomotive:  these have pairs of three-axle trucks, but the middle axle has no traction motor--just helps to spread out the weight.  EMD E units had A1A trucks; so did Alco PA and PB units, and RSC units.

2.   The Warbonnet paint scheme is the red and silver (or red and gray) paint scheme (originally with yellow trim, and with a yellow and black logo on the front) that originated on Santa Fe passenger diesel locomotives.  They were used at the head of Santa Fe's Chief family of passenger trains (as well as all of the others).  It survived to be used by AT&SF's second-generation passenger power, and was resurrected in the 1980s as the paint scheme for AT&SF's newest locomotives.  It was carried over for a short time by BNSF to use on locomotives for higher-speed freight trains, but is no longer being applied to new power--survivors look pretty bad nowadays.  The lines of this paint job suggest a Native-American headdress to some, and the logo itself is probably based on a Hopi or Navajo design.

3.   Yes, carbody=covered wagon.  Those are your basic E, F, FA, and PA (and FP and FPA) units, not meant to be used for anything but through service--not easy to work with in yard or other services where switching is required.

[Deggesty]

Carl, didn't the Warbonnet scheme also have the head of an Indian wearing a warbonnet on the side? By the way, back then there was no such thing as a "logo;" emblems or heralds were used to identify railroads and many different companies. I wonder if there is some loose etymological connection with the Greek word for word (logos; I would give the Greek lettering if this site could display it; the site is extremely deficient in that matter) and the now common appelation "logo."

[Deggesty]

Carl, didn't the Warbonnet scheme also have the head of an Indian wearing a warbonnet on the side? By the way, back then there was no such thing as a "logo;" emblems or heralds were used to identify railroads and many different companies. I wonder if there is some loose etymological connection with the Greek word for word (logos; I would give the Greek lettering if this site could display it; the site is extremely deficient in that matter) and the now common appelation "logo."

[tree68]

Don't forget such variations as B-A1A (on some C-Liners), 2+C-C+2 (Pennsy GG1), 2+D-D+2 (Baldwin Centipede), or even 1B+D+D+B1 (Milwaukee Road Bipolar electric).

A variation of locomotive construction that might be confused with carbody, or "covered wagon" designs is the "cowl," which is found on such units as the SDP40F and the F40, among others.

The difference between a carbody and a cowl is structural.  With a carbody, the outside covering is part of the structural frame of the locomotive.  You can't just lift it off.  With a cowl, the outside covering is just that, a covering.  The frame of the locomotive is exactly the same as on a hood unit (the usual freight locomotive configuration in the US).

[jeffhergert]

CShaveRR

2.   The Warbonnet paint scheme is the red and silver (or red and gray) paint scheme (originally with yellow trim, and with a yellow and black logo on the front) that originated on Santa Fe passenger diesel locomotives.  They were used at the head of Santa Fe's Chief family of passenger trains (as well as all of the others).  It survived to be used by AT&SF's second-generation passenger power, and was resurrected in the 1980s as the paint scheme for AT&SF's newest locomotives.  It was carried over for a short time by BNSF to use on locomotives for higher-speed freight trains, but is no longer being applied to new power--survivors look pretty bad nowadays.  The lines of this paint job suggest a Native-American headdress to some, and the logo itself is probably based on a Hopi or Navajo design.

I have a confession to make.  It's kind of heretical among the railfan faithful, but here goes:

I don't like the AT&SF red and silver warbonnet scheme that much, but especially don't care for it on freight engines. 

There, I said it.  I'm sorry I don't know why, but I prefer the AT&SF blue and yellow, especially before they went to a warbonnet inspired style on their freight engines.  Even with the warbonnet stylization I prefer the blue and yellow.  Forgive me Andy Sperandeo and any other AT&SF fans out there.

Jeff

(Actually, I think I do know why.  As colors go I like blue better than red, although I do like red schemes that have appeared on other railroads.  I'm also in the minority among RI fans; I liked the last blue and white scheme they used.  I didn't think it was that bad on most engines.)       

[CShaveRR]

You are forgiven, my child.  Recite twenty Safety Firsts, and genuflect in the direction of Kansas City (where Mike Haverty watcheth over the newer warbonnets).

(I'm with you, Jeff.  My own color preferences tend toward the cooler end of the spectrum--scarlet and yellow are "warm" colors--so I liked most of the blues used in paint schemes, as well as in-spectrum greens.  I really appreciated BN Cascade Green!)

___________________

Pat and I will be out most of the day today--a concert downtown after church--but I couldn't let the day go by without noting that it was forty years ago on this date that I established my seniority with the C&NW, after five days of training and rules classes.  My first job was working at the Middle in Proviso--it was a four-man job, and two of the other guys (I can't remember the third) were a Carl for an engineer and a Carlos for a foreman.  We built two or three trains that day (I didn't know that that was what I was going--I knew that we were taking cars out of the hump, but I couldn't figure out what we were doing with them!), got a quit, and I was complimented by Carlos on the job I did for my first time out.

[WMNB4THRTL]

Hi, ya'll. I have good news, and maybe some not so good.

1. I now own 2 diesel spotter guides, covering 'older' and 'newer' units. (That's the good news!)

2. I'm still having a hard time distinguishing between an 'E' and an 'F' unit. (I know; I know! Put the dunce cap back on, but I'm trying!! ) Thanks!

P.S. SSHHH!! Don't tell, but I, too, agree with the red-not-so-much, blue and green are better, 'camp.'

[tree68]

On the face of it (pun intended), E's and F's are virtually identical, with that bulldog face and all.

A side view reveals all (or at least an awful lot).

For one, E's will be substantially longer than F's.  That's because they have two prime movers (engines) to the F's one.

First and foremost, though will be the trucks.  F's are B-B, with two four wheel trucks.  E's are A1A, with two six wheel trucks.  As discussed earlier, only two of the axles are actually powered.  The other is just along for the ride.

[CShaveRR]

Unfortunately, there aren't too many opportunities left to hear an E-unit chorus.  Two or three of those units, with two prime movers apiece, made for quite a sound when they opened up.  The UP's current "E9s" don't count--they have been re-engined, and only one prime mover is under each of those carbodies.

The Metra trip to (and from) Chicago was relatively uneventful, but it gave me a chance to see progress made on our line's upgrading, to wit:

1.  All five of the remaining switches for the new control point in Lombard have rails and machines attached to ties, and are ready to go in, whenever.

2.  I think I've figured out the locations for where three new signal bridges between Lombard and Elmhurst will go, based on the presence of footing material.  In past reports I've mentioned two new bridge locations...that's still true, as the third one discovered today will be replacing an older one, by the Elmhurst stone quarry.

3.   I finally got a good look at the mainline shift toward the east end of Proviso.  A new bridge was built over Mud Creek, and the trackage shifted slightly northward onto it.  There is now enough room under the IHB bridge for the third track.  There is some major pile-driving taking place in this area, and I'm wondering whether this will be a flyover linking the yard directly to the IHB without involving the main line.

4.  There were leaflets on the Metra coaches announcing that the new "Another Train Warning System" will be activated in March, and our outbound conductor made the announcement over the speaker that March 1 is the day.  Since that's also bill-paying day, I may be lingering around the platform somewhere along the line to see if we get lucky.  I haven't checked out the new video giving ATWS details yet, but it should be accessible:  http://www.metraupwest.com/index.shtml

[zardoz]

CShaveRR

Good news...Mike Yuhas is home from the hospital, building up strength.

I was not aware that he was of ill health...what happened?

[CShaveRR]

I mentioned it here in the lounge a few days back, Jim.  Bypass surgery.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

WMNB4THRTL

  1. What does it mean when they say A-B or B-B, etc? I'm pretty sure it has to do with a loco's trucks, but...?

2. What is a war bonnet paint scheme? Why is it called that? [snipped] 

 

1.  I took Nance's question as "A-B" is a carbody cab unit - "A" - connected to a 'booster' unit - "B"; "B-B" would be a pair of the booster units, but that would be seen only around the engine terminal.  More common are A-B-A and A-B-B-A combos, esp. leading the Santa Fe's passenger trains.

2.  Here's a link to a photo (not mine) of one of those A-B-B-A lash-ups, in the Warbonnet scheme: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=341438 

I'm trying to find a photo of a carbody unit without the side sheathing on, which would show the truss frame underneath - but so far, no luck . . .

- Paul North.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

WMNB4THRTL

  2. I'm still having a hard time distinguishing between an 'E' and an 'F' unit.

   You need to get sideways views of each type of unit.  In addition to what Larry noted above, the profile or slope of the nose of the E-unit is a lot shallower/ longer than those of the F-units - I'm recalling that the E-unit nose is 70 degrees from horizontal, but the F-unit noses are 80 degrees from horizontal. 

If you have access to the back issues of Trains, look for this essay - I believe it was sub-titled "Ever really watch E-units at speed ?", or similar:

Three lovely ladies

Pacing the Panama on a South Shore train

by Golightly, J 

from Trains June 1968  p. 23

e8  ic  Limited  panama 

Also this one:

100 mph aboard an E9

Champaign to Centralia

by Scribbins, Jim 

from Trains March 1966  p. 52

city  diesel  ic  New  Orleans  speed 

- Paul North.   

[WMNB4THRTL]

Ah, very good. Thanks Larry, Carl and Paul, as always!! I appreciate all the help. Finally got my last 2 RR books from my recent orders. Hopefully, they are all wonderfully helpful. Take care.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

You're quite welcome, Nance - it's fun for me, too.  In the meantime  I recalled this site, which should be helpful:  http://www.thedieselshop.us/

and http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataEMDIndex.HTML 

In particular, compare the lines of an EMC E3A - it's a "Warbonnet", with the "Indian head" symbol as mentioned previously by others above:  http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20E3.HTML 

with the EMD F3A:  http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20F3.HTML 

Note that somewhat contrary to what I posted above, the E6's were the last ones with the 70-degree nose slope - the E7's - http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20E7.HTML - and later units had the 80-degree nose slope, the same as the F-units.

- Paul North. 

[mudchicken]

PDN: Changing your monicker to "Action Jackson (6700)" ???

Nance: Warbonnets Started in 1937 on the EA/E1's (and later morphed onto the passenger F's, Amos & Andy, Alco DL-109/110's, and FM units) all in red/yellow & black on a stainless steel silver background.....Freight Units didn't get the warbonnet (yellow on a blue background, ie "yellow-bonnets") until later on demoted passenger power....This all grew out of the use of the indian headress (warbonnet) of the Chiefs plus the marketing department plastered the Chief logo on everything..

http://www.qstation.org/atsf/wrbnnt.html

http://www.atsfrr.com/index.shtml (Look at the top of the page, that symbol predates the warbonnet painted image on diesel locos by many,many years....Look at EA #1A & 1B [Amos and Andy] in their original 1936 green and blue)

Switch engines, like the last SSB-1200's (later traded to Amtrak) looked a little odd with a warbonnet.

Mud is one of Chico's orphans as is diningcar.

Soggy Feathers in Seattle

[rvos1979]

Carl, the only ABA set of "true" E9s I'm aware of are usually found in Horicon or Madison on the WSOR, and they do sound good......

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Here're the links to some nice photos (none mine) of CB&Q E5A 9911-A "SILVER PILOT", now at the Illinois Railway Museum: http://www.thedieselshop.us/PRSVDemdEs.HTML 

If you look carefully at the screened vents - esp. the front and rear ones along the top of the side, and the one just aft of the 'midships' side door - you can see portions of the angled members that are part of the truss which actually forms the frame of and supports this unit - the sides are just a covering, and are not 'structural'. 

See also this one http://www.thedieselshop.us/FirstGen.HTML 

And: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcfan/3331171661/ 

I've always been partial to any of the CB&Q's stainless steel E-unit speedsters, and my idea of the best railroad photograph ever is a 'panned' shot of one at speed that appeared in Trains about 20 - 30 years ago - the locomotive is pretty sharp, but everything else is a blur.

- Paul North. 

[zardoz]

rvos1979

Carl, the only ABA set of "true" E9s I'm aware of are usually found in Horicon or Madison on the WSOR, and they do sound good......

With the Metra E8s the best sound was when they were in the 5th notch--the 2 motors would sort of harmonize and create a very cool-sounding low frequency throbbing.  Unfortunately, these units were rarely in any notch other than idle or 8th.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Forget the gods of old

a fast ride behind Burlington E5s

by Morgan, David P. 

from Trains October 1978  p. 58

CB&Q  e5  frontispiece 

 

Best-selling passenger diesel of all time

condensed version of article in January 1979 Trains

by Morgan, David P. 

from Trains April 1994  p. 46

drawing  E7  O  prototype 

 

Turntable: An E7 postlude

let�s preserve an E7

by Kydd, Douglas F. 

from Trains March 1986  p. 70

opinion 

 

The essence of the E7

The E7 experience

by Morgan, David P. 

from Trains January 1979  p. 30

diesel  E7  emd 

The indestructible locomotive

The E7 experience

by Hawthorne, J. W. 

from Trains January 1979  p. 44

ACL  CofG  diesel  E7  emd 

A reputation for reliability

The E7 experience

by Gardner, W. A. 

from Trains January 1979  p. 48

diesel  E7  emd  prr 

  

Where are the noses of yesteryear?

EMC�s slant-nose E3, E4, E5, E6

by Marrie, Louis A. 

from Trains December 1971  p. 38

emd  e-unit  roster 

 

[WMNB4THRTL]

Thanks, but does anyone know why I can never access these links? Is it bc I didn't subscribe back then?

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Nance - 

Despite the appearances, they're evidently not 'live" links - at least not after I've "copied and pasted" them here - directly from and just the same as they appear on the Magazine Index's "Search Results" page.  Although, at least the Month-Year portion is working enough then to take me to an image of the front cover (only), when I'm into and actively using the Magazine Index's "Advanced Search" function. 

Sorry for any confusion and frustration that may have caused you, and anyone else - it's just easier for me to post those references/ citations that way, rather than laboriously retyping them to eliminate that appearance. 

- Paul North. 

[Deggesty]

WMNB4THRTL

Thanks, but does anyone know why I can never access these links? Is it bc I didn't subscribe back then?

Nance, I have found the easiest way for me to get to where such a link could take me is to copy it and then paste into my browser. This procedure may wipe the tears away.

[WMNB4THRTL]

That's OK; I just thought either I was doing something wrong or it was my fairly old computer. Still glad for the references, at any rate.

I still have my fingers crossed for that DVD set that goes back to the beginning of time!!! (What, you mean there was life before trains?! Hhhmmm....?)

P.S. Thanks, Johnny! We posted at the same time.