CShaveRR I doubt that any ice formed in the flangeways, and the snow that was caught there wouldn't present much of an obstacle.
I doubt that any ice formed in the flangeways, and the snow that was caught there wouldn't present much of an obstacle.
"Flangeway", that was the word I couldn't think of when I wrote the question. I knew they weren't frog's. I was wondering though if there wouldn't be enough buildup from one railway's flanges being forced into the spaces needed by the other Rlwy. I guess it would have to freeze up pretty good before the second train could ride up over the buildup and derail. And as I mentioned over on the other thread, it looked like BNSF got there pretty quickly after that UP WB went by.
Thanks Carl.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Nance:
Somehow my bad luck with computers is starting to run off on you ... going to the doghouse to get degaussed...
Hhmm, then I guess either my computer or ISP is having issues! No luck for me on either count, oh well.
I'm done up through "O" at the moment.
Grateful I remain, for all the assistance!
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
Paul_D_North_Jr Deggesty: Giesl ejector--if I had time tonight, I would go upstairs to my Trains indices, and look for the item that appeared in Trains back in the fifties. It was a device that improved the efficiency of steam engines, butapparently its performance on the C&O engine was less than impressive. Paul North may find the reference. [snip] I wonder--did anybody ever get a hernia from reaching down to the ground to lift and throw the levr? You might have been looking for quite a while, Johnny: Which twin has the Giesl? Giesl ejector, a replacement for the conventional blast pipe by Winding, Peter from Trains January 1968 p. 27 steam technology The performance on the C&O switcher was pretty good - "Man, you really got something there !" - but too late in the life of steam locomotives to cause any interest in further installation, as diesels were taking over even then. It's an interesting article on the interaction between technology, business, and society. Yep ! Or, a back injury, etc. That's why the bow-style throwing levers are now so prevalent. - Paul North.
Deggesty: Giesl ejector--if I had time tonight, I would go upstairs to my Trains indices, and look for the item that appeared in Trains back in the fifties. It was a device that improved the efficiency of steam engines, butapparently its performance on the C&O engine was less than impressive. Paul North may find the reference. [snip] I wonder--did anybody ever get a hernia from reaching down to the ground to lift and throw the levr?
[snip] I wonder--did anybody ever get a hernia from reaching down to the ground to lift and throw the levr?
Even if I had remembered the decade, I was looking (this morning) under "Giesl," and not "C&O", which is how it appeared in the index. I did remember the title of the article ("Which twin has the Giesl?").
Johnny
Manifest is a general slop train. For what the average joe would consider a manifest, we call a "wheel", or wheel report. I guess you can use waybill in its place, but most of those are in the computer.
I believe MARC (maryland area rail commuter) still has a number of locomotives with just Mars lights and not ditch lights.
--what else --
A lead is the piece of track between the mainline switch and the actual industry. It is part of the customer's siding, but cars on it may not be accessible to the industry.
Handbrake chain - we have to release the chain so there is ample slack and painted links are showing (if they are any). If that means the chain drags on the axle? So be it. If the quick release lever actually works (which is getting rare anymore - anyone else notice that?) then I'll use that. Otherwise, I'll use my trusty "brakeman on a steeck". (my apologies to Jeff Dunham.)
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
MC's "Voestalpine" and my FRA link both worked for me a minute ago.
"Manifest" is a misnomer to me, too - unless it means that you need a 'manifest' document of what's on it to be able to know what it's hauling ! I prefer to use the term 'general' freight, which means all other kinds of freight or commodities in various types of cars in a single train, which may not be sorted or limited to specific kinds or types, etc., as they are with unit and intermodal trains. In other words, the stereotypical freight train.
I don't know if the MARS lights have been removed selectively or more generally/ broadly, or if they conform to the FRA's 'ditch lights' rule (doubt it). They can be a higher-maintenance and harder-parts-to-get item, which may be an equally compelling reasonto remove them if they're not doing something unique or useful, unless the loco is a museum piece or historical display.
- Paul North.
Good morning, this time at a more reasonable hour. (EDIT: Well, I started in the a.m.) Many, many thanks to you all, as always!
Is anyone else having trouble with the two links, Paul's recent one and the one from MC? Neither are working properly for me. I get gibberish from MC's and 'server not found' from Paul's. Can anyone pls help?
I've now gone through 'M.' --
1. I'm stumbling on second definition of 'manifest.' In Glossary it's shown, in part, as:
"Also, a freight train carrying goods not hauled in unit trains or intermodal trains." I guess I'm a bit confused on what they mean.
2. Are MARS lights a thing of the past? Did I read somewhere they have been removed even from vintage locos or am I mixing that up with something else?
That's all I know of for now. Make it a safe day.
Deggesty Giesl ejector--if I had time tonight, I would go upstairs to my Trains indices, and look for the item that appeared in Trains back in the fifties. It was a device that improved the efficiency of steam engines, butapparently its performance on the C&O engine was less than impressive. Paul North may find the reference. [snip] I wonder--did anybody ever get a hernia from reaching down to the ground to lift and throw the levr?
Thanks, Johnny.
My apologies, not all my "G's" were unanswered. Sorry, I guess I overworked my brain! Anyway, back to sleep now, as I obviously need it.
*"March 25, 2008- Canton, Massachusetts - Other Impacts Incident - Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority (MBTA), FRA’s Accident/Incident Investigation Report, File #: HQ-2008-33", top of Page 9 of 12, at: http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/Accident_Investigation/2008/hq200833.pdf
A CSX local freight crew spotted a loaded lumber car at a lumber yard, but a few hours later it rolled out of the facility, over a derail ("rabbit" to Deggesty and now Nance), onto a branch line, and then into a MBTA commuter train, etc. - sobering reading. - PDN.
[/quote]Come on, Paul, you know that other people have talked of "rabbits." If it had been a split rail derail, the probability of the car's being derailed would have been much greater. Incidentally, all of the derails that I noticed on the sidings coming off the Salt Lake City TRAXX are the split rail type. Each one has a switch stand with a "D" on a purple background.
Giesl ejector--if I had time tonight, I would go upstairs to my Trains indices, and look for the item that appeared in Trains back in the fifties. It was a device that improved the efficiency of steam engines, butapparently its performance on the C&O engine was less than impressive. Paul North may find the reference.
Ground throw switches--thanks MC for the link; I now know more of what changes have been made in switch stands so as to improve security. As I recall, the IC used ground throw switches on its crossovers between the two mains. I wonder--did anybody ever get a hernia from reaching down to the ground to lift and throw the levr?
Wheel flats--it seems that there was an engineer who had to make a sudden stop and, as a result, ground flats on all the drivers. When called on the carpet, he aked if he knew how long they were, and he began, "about the length of a dollar", and the super interrupted him, "they were SIX INCHES long!" The engineer replied, "You did not let me finish; I was going to say the length of a dollar bill." Needless to say, the drivers received new tires all around (though he may have ground through some of the tires).
Carl, glad to hear things are getting back at least closer to normal.
Paul & MC- I'm still working to process all that.
All my letter 'G' questions remain 'in play' and up for grabs. I've now completed 'H' through/incl 'L'. My questions are (incl one comment):
1. hot box detector-- do these work with like an infrared type of a detector where it senses heat?
2. hunting-- (from Glossary,) in part it says, "Destructive tendency of a truck to nose from side-to-side..." Is it destructive bc it wears on the flanges somehow? How would it be corrected, or can it be?
3. I'm unclear what a lead is, in terms of tracks.
4. A comment, not a question. Most all you guys will know this, probably better than I do, but for anyone who doesn't know, whenever you release a handbrake, at least on the type I know, only let/make the wheel take about 3-4 turns. Otherwise, the chain will drag on the wheels and cause excessive wear, thus weakening, of the chain. Trust me, if you do this and they know it was you, or can prove it, you will be extremely unpopular!! Fortunately, I was only taught this and did not have to experience it firsthand. (WHEW!!)
Bruce!
Sorry I missed your question about the diamond.
It didn't look like there were any drifts over it, so I expect that the two railroads just ran their trains normally over it. I doubt that any ice formed in the flangeways, and the snow that was caught there wouldn't present much of an obstacle.
Speaking of which, my lineside reporter says that there have now been freights in both directions over our line. I'm also told that Proviso's regular contractor for snow clearing is digging out tracks in the yard (usually they've only had intermodal parking lots to contend with). I'm sure they have to come up with some creative options on where to put all of the snow from this storm!
MC, why are you kicking da boyz out of their doghouse, hmmm?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Back about the middle of Page 16 of this thread, Nance asked the following with regard to a couple photos I posted of a "Bad Order" card on a boxcar which stated that it needed the "#3 & 4 brake beams":
WMNB4THRTL Thanks, Paul. Can anybody help me out a bit more on what a brake beam is and what is SCT? I have an idea on the brake beam thing from the photo but I'm still not quite clear. Edit--I found more on 'brake beam' now, so I think I'm OK, at least sort of. Still can't find SCT.
Edit--I found more on 'brake beam' now, so I think I'm OK, at least sort of. Still can't find SCT.
"All were air tested according to Single Car Test Standard; AAR S-486-04 using NYAB/AAR approved Computerized Single Car Testing Device. All test results are included in this report in the mechanical section. All portions passed the SCT testing."
From that, I conclude that "SCT" = "Single Car Test" of the air brake system, which would make sense since the subject car was a single car by itself, and the defect involved the brake system. End of mystery.
Ground Switch (what they are talking about is the switch stand.)
Good example is a RACOR 22-P variable switch stand ("barrel switch" to a ground monkey) or a 36-E hub switch (rigid).....
http://www.voestalpine.com/etc/picprod/railway_infrastructure/switchsystems/hytronics/nortrak/en.PICPARSYSContentBeschreibung.49730.File.tmp/Switch_Stands_Brochure.html
Basically, the handle starts on the ground, is lifted up and over and then placed back on the ground...
*** And then there is the #336E which is part of the recipe for a submarine switch....but that's not until we get to "S"...which is well after I get sent to time-out in the doghouse that the scotties have deeded-over to me.
Wow, great, Paul. Thanks, once again. Between you and the others, maybe I shouldn't even try to tackle 'H' today, (I've got a lot to study/learn) but I think I still will anyway.
Railway Investigation Report Runaway/Derailment Canadian National Freight Train L-567-51-29 Mile 184.8, Lillooet Subdivision, Near Lillooet, British Columbia 29 June 2006 Report Number R06V0136
Railway Investigation Report
Runaway/Derailment
Canadian National
Freight Train L-567-51-29
Mile 184.8, Lillooet Subdivision, Near Lillooet, British Columbia
29 June 2006
Report Number R06V0136
See pp. 27 and 35 of the Report (Pages 35 and 43 of 59 of the 'PDF" version) on the "Empty/ Load Devices":
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2006/r06v0136/r06v0136.pdf (59 pgs., approx. 1.60 MB)
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2006/r06v0136/r06v0136.asp (HTML version)
Transportation Safety Board of Canada Reports and Studies at:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/index.asp
NTSB rail accident investigation reports at:
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/r_acc.htm
NTSB Railroad Studies and Special Reports:
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/R_Stu.htm
There's also a webpage with links by year to older ICC accident reports, but I can't find that right at the moment - I believe Deggesty has that one handy, though. There are also less formal FRA accident investigation reports.
EDIT: ICC's "INVESTIGATIONS OF RAILROAD ACCIDENTS 1911 - 1993", at:
http://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/
then/ or -
http://ntl1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_railroads
See also an independent partial compilation, at: http://www.railaccrep.com/
http://www.fra.dot.gov/pages/1696.shtml
I'm done now. - PDN.
WMNB4THRTL [snip] 1. After a flat spot forms, does that wheel have to be replaced? 2. It said they are caused by a wheelset locking up; what would cause one to lock up, other than an emergency brake application? [snipped]
2. It said they are caused by a wheelset locking up; what would cause one to lock up, other than an emergency brake application? [snipped]
1. Perhaps stating the obvious: If the flat spot exceeds the limits as stated above, then not only that wheel, but the axle and other wheel, too - which almost always also has a similar flat spot ! - need to be removed from the car. The next step is to 'turn' or 'true' the wheels on a wheel lathe, assuming there's enough metal left on the tread to do that and still have a wheel with the minimum thickness, etc. Otherwise, they're scrap (or candidates for park bench supports, modern art sculptures, etc. . . .
A while ago Jeff Hergert was kind enough to post here his 'rule of thumb' about how to tell a flat spot that's serious (if I recall it correctly): It can be heard when it's still 5 or 6 car-lengths away.
There are also some "Wheel Impact Load Detectors" = "WILD" installed on some main lines to catch them - among other defects - before they cause more serious trouble, like broken rails or a derailment.
2. This time of year, snow and ice in the brake rigging, binding and jamming it up and preventing the brake shoes from releasing completely.
To corrupt one of mudchicken's expressions: Joe-Bubba at the agri-business (or quarry, or lumber yard, etc.) moving a car with the forklift, front-end loader - or even a switcher - without releasing the handbrake all the way or even checking it and trying to, because "Sliding it that little ways won't hurt nothing" - I've read that only a few feet is enough to cause a condemnable flat spot.
This is a subtle one: In a train of mixed empties and loads, the brake application/ reduction that achieves the desired braking effect for the loads may create too much braking force for the empties, locking up their wheels and causing them to slide. Neither the train line, the triple valve*, the brake cylinder, nor the brake shoes can know* or care whether a car is empty or loaded - a certain lbs. reduction in the trainline pressure produces 2.5 times as much pressure in the brake cylinder and a commensurate force on the brake shoes and the wheels, which is the same for both a loaded car and the empty right next to it. The problem is, the loaded car can weigh from 3 to 4 times as much as the empty car - so the empty car may be over-braked by the same factor of 3 to 4. Since the needed retarding force is proportional to the gross weight of the car, that much braking will lock up the wheels of the empty, while the loaded car brakes more slowly as its wheels continue to revolve.
*Except for those cars which are equipped with "Empty/ Load Compensator Valves" (or whatever else they're called), which are supposed to limit the brake cylinder pressure on empty cars to a value that will prevent the wheels from locking up and sliding. One of those had a "supporting villain" role in the tragic runaway on the former BC Rail under CN control a few years ago - as I recall from the Canadian TSB report, it was defective/ out of repair, and that somehow aggravated the series of events in the disaster. I'll see if i can find a post a link to that report a little later on.
Which leads to another thought: if you want to learn an awful lot = more than you really want to know about something, read the NTSB and TSB reports on those kinds of incidents. They are very thorough, and usually don't presume too much knowledge on the part of the reader. With these long winter nights and cold days, a lot of time can be spent with them. If the subject or part of the report is of no interest to you - just skip over it. You'll see what I mean if you look at a few. As a kind of "gallows humor" observation, because they're all real events that went wrong, involving real people and their lives- and unfortunately, sometimes their deaths and injuries - those reports can make for some pretty dramatic and compelling reading, once you get behind the sometimes dry technical expositions.
Ooo, thank you, MC. That gives me something to 'chew' on for a while.
Speaking of which, I have some letter 'G' questions: (Sesame Street anyone? sorry, couldn't resist! )
1. from this site, "Railroading Glossary"
I'm holding off on answering #4 until you get a little more comfortable with switches and turnouts. Us folk who wind up fixing the track damage have a slightly different perspective.
Eventually we will talk about rigid and variable switch stands. When you run backwards through a switch, the following tend to get "bent": (1) The switch rod (from the switch stand to the switch point #1 rod), (2) the #1 and #3 rods, (3) sometimes the switch stand or the (4) Switch points/ (4a) Alligator Clips (transit clips)...
The following tend to get "broken": (1) Switch stands, (2) track & switch bolts and the tips of switch points.
For certain, the switch mechanism is now out of adjustment. Nobody, not even Arnold Shwartzenswitcher is going to throw the switch. The next train through that switch is a derailment waiting to happen and a section gang is in for hours of fun. (Hope you have some track folks that know what they are doing, repairing damaged switches back to proper adjustment is an art.)
If that flat spot is not addressed mui-pronto, the track folks get more unplanned work.
(Depending on who wrote the Glossary, you probably got a bunch of new terms to deal with)
Yea, my PS was bc I thought I couldn't answer Johnny's exact question, but, once again, you took care of that!
Thanks guys, for all the help. Glad everyone sounds OK.
Off to study in the key of G , oh I mean, in the letter G in the Glossary.
Not bad, Nance--those do sound like the numbers I was trying to remember for condemning wheels.
Johnny, I'm not sure that flat spots actually grow in size once they've formed--maybe the conductor was simply annoyed at that one, or knew that the car would have to be set out at a location where something could be done. I believe most wheelsets have one or two turns in them, but don't know whether that applies to passenger wheels.
We're still effectively snowed in here, in that our driveway isn't clear. I do have a path out to the street (which finally got plowed a little before dark last night), so I can take a trip to the store after lunch. I think our official low was -3 this morning. One of my "trackside reporters" on Facebook says that no freights have gone through yet, and Track 2 remains unused here. It looks like something has broken open the UP tracks at Rochelle. Metra has attempted to run a normal schedule today, and seem to be fairly successful so far, at least on the lines for which I get service alerts.
Johnny, One operation I know of has the following rules, but I have seen the same ones published elsewhere:
Proceed at normal speed if: flat spot is 2 1/2" or less or there are 2 adjoining spots, each one is 2" or less in length.
You may continue at 5mph if they are in excess of above but less than 4" and no other defect is found.
You may not proceed if: defect is over 4".
I hope this helps. (Finally, I got to answer instead of ask! YIPEE!!)
PS Shoot, I just re-read and it looks like I spoke too soon. This probably doesn't help you; sorry.
CShaveRR Nance, I know that there are standards for when a wheelset has to be condemned because of flat spots. Sometimes the flat spots sound pretty horrendous going by you but those are okay. They're measured--anything over a given size is changed out, or there could be two adjacent flat spots of a smaller size that would also require changing out.
Nance, I know that there are standards for when a wheelset has to be condemned because of flat spots. Sometimes the flat spots sound pretty horrendous going by you but those are okay. They're measured--anything over a given size is changed out, or there could be two adjacent flat spots of a smaller size that would also require changing out.
How much can be a wheel be turned down before it has to be discarded?
I spoke too soon about Metra service on UP West improving as the weather did...it's done for the day now. Nuttin' running!
Not all routine brake applications release in order--the entire train might be able to roll after brakes have been released, but there might be a couple of hangers-on that slide a bit before beginning to roll. Hand brakes left on are responsible for quite a few slid-flat wheels. Defective bearings might also cause a wheelset to lock up, but if you have one of those, flat spots are probably the least of your worries!
A bolster is the metal cross-beam that holds the side frames of the truck the proper distance apart.
Going through a switch that hasn't been lined is called "trailing through" it. If the switch isn't meant to be trailed through, your doing it will damage it--you've forced a point open, but there's no assurance that it will stay in any position. Back through it, and you're as likely as not to get both flanges between the points and the stock rails--and from there it's just a short drop to the ground.
(After you finish typing your post, choose "select all"--usually "command" and "A" at the same time. Then change your font; you'll have to Select All again to change the size. Another possibility is to make your changes after you've typed only a word or two, and just continue typing the rest of the post after that.)
What is going to be the procedure opening up the Rochelle Diamond? Will they send a Section Man (MOW worker) out in a truck with a broom and a shovel to clear out the diamond by hand, or will the RR's just pay their money and take their chances running trains over it as hard as they can go?
I'm just not familiar with the modern way of doing things.
Nancy, I don't think we've spoken before, but your font is working fine now and very readable.
Well, my oh my! Lots to respond to here! Dan, hope you can get at least a few good shots.
Carl, your daughter sounds like what my family would've said! Thanks, I'm testing out your 'font,' etc method. (Well, that doesn't work for me; guess I didn't 'talk to it nice' like you did??!! --another grandma-ism!!) And yes, I'll bet Burlington is NOT using ANY of theirs at the moment!! HA!!! Probably lots available for the time being. Thanks for the loco info, as always. I'd never seen that before.
So, I've completed 'E' and 'F' so far today of the Glossary and the resultant questions are:
1. After a flat spot forms, does that wheel have to be replaced?
2. It said they are caused by a wheelset locking up; what would cause one to lock up, other than an emergency brake application?
3. Under 'Flexicoil truck,' it takes about a bolster. What's a bolster?
4. This came to me while learning about 'frogs' but is really about switches proper, I guess. I think, IIRC, they taught me never to back through a switch you've gone through improperly (is that called 'run through?') Why is that, assuming I'm correct?
Thanks for the tip Carl. That was an amazing sight. I hope Jim Wrinn sees it, as he was on another thread looking for snow pictures.
What would be even neater though, would be to know when UP will run the plow through. That might make a great picture.
Stay safe and warm.
Just took a look at the Rochelle Webcam--it looks like nothing's gone through there today, at least on the UP side (I could see rails on BNSF, but those could have been blown clear).
We aren't out of the woods yet--tonight the temperature will fall to double-digits below zero, so that wet snow that we haven't gotten to will solidify. Maybe we can order some dynamite from Burlington!
Last time I cracked my head on concrete, the daughter checked the concrete for damages!
(She's become more of a sweetheart since then, by giving us grandchildren and calling us today to make sure everything was all right.)
Quentin, I hope you don't suffer any long-term effects from that tumble!
Here, Metra's been struggling to maintain even a Sunday schedule. At least out west of town here, the conditions have been improving, so the evening should go more smoothly for them. I have a friend by the tracks in Villa Park; he reports that no freights have gone by.
The official total for this blizzard (yes, it officially qualified as one) was 20.3 inches, at O'Hare. It's securely in third place in Chicago history, behind 1967 and 1999. The sun has been shining for about four hours now, but the Village hasn't made its way to our street with the plows. The school parking lot is open--they had to use end-loaders for that. We broke out of our house after lunch, and shoveled a path down our front walk to the driveway, thence three separate paths to the neighbor's house, the street, and the garage door.
Nance, I can't help with your font/size problem. I just type mine out, then change the type face and kick it up one size before posting.
I think most, if not all, of UP's SD70MAC units (Including UP 8122) have their number boards on the nose. Most of UP's C44AC and C45AC units (their classification--models are AC4400CW and ES44AC, but not the same break-points as our classes) have their headlights and number boards above the cab, but they're down low on some of them. Low lights give less glare to the engineer in bad weather (such as falling rain or snow), but on the nose they're in a position where employees could get burned by brushing up against them. I'm probably wrong about which are more common, but that's just my fault for not paying enough attention.
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