Trains.com

Trackside Lounge: 1Q 2011

45724 views
676 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:45 PM

WMNB4THRTL
  [snip]  1. After a flat spot forms, does that wheel have to be replaced?

2. It said they are caused by a wheelset locking up; what would cause one to lock up, other than an emergency brake application?  [snipped]  

 

1.  Perhaps stating the obvious:  If the flat spot exceeds the limits as stated above, then not only that wheel, but the axle and other wheel, too - which almost always also has a similar flat spot ! - need to be removed from the car.  The next step is to 'turn' or 'true' the wheels on a wheel lathe, assuming there's enough metal left on the tread to do that and still have a wheel with the minimum thickness, etc.  Otherwise, they're scrap (or candidates for park bench supports, modern art sculptures, etc. . . . Whistling 

A while ago Jeff Hergert was kind enough to post here his 'rule of thumb' about how to tell a flat spot that's serious (if I recall it correctly):  It can be heard when it's still 5 or 6 car-lengths away. 

There are also some "Wheel Impact Load Detectors" = "WILD" installed on some main lines to catch them - among other defects - before they cause more serious trouble, like broken rails or a derailment.

2.  This time of year, snow and ice in the brake rigging, binding and jamming it up and preventing the brake shoes from releasing completely.

To corrupt one of mudchicken's expressions: Joe-Bubba at the agri-business (or quarry, or lumber yard, etc.) moving a car with the forklift, front-end loader - or even a switcher - without releasing the handbrake all the way or even checking it and trying to, because "Sliding it that little ways won't hurt nothing" - I've read that only a few feet is enough to cause a condemnable flat spot.

This is a subtle one:  In a train of mixed empties and loads, the brake application/ reduction that achieves the desired braking effect for the loads may create too much braking force for the empties, locking up their wheels and causing them to slide.  Neither the train line, the triple valve*, the brake cylinder, nor the brake shoes can know* or care whether a car is empty or loaded - a certain lbs. reduction in the trainline pressure produces 2.5 times as much pressure in the brake cylinder and a commensurate force on the brake shoes and the wheels, which is the same for both a loaded car and the empty right next to it.   The problem is, the loaded car can weigh from 3 to 4 times as much as the empty car - so the empty car may be over-braked by the same factor of 3 to 4.  Since the needed retarding force is proportional to the gross weight of the car, that much braking will lock up the wheels of the empty, while the loaded car brakes more slowly as its wheels continue to revolve.

*Except for those cars which are equipped with "Empty/ Load Compensator Valves" (or whatever else they're called), which are supposed to limit the brake cylinder pressure on empty cars to a value that will prevent the wheels from locking up and sliding.  One of those had a "supporting villain" role in the tragic runaway on the former BC Rail under CN control a few years ago - as I recall from the Canadian TSB report, it was defective/ out of repair, and that somehow aggravated the series of events in the disaster.  I'll see if i can find a post a link to that report a little later on. 

Which leads to another thought:  if you want to learn an awful lot = more than you really want to know about something, read the NTSB and TSB reports on those kinds of incidents.  They are very thorough, and usually don't presume too much knowledge on the part of the reader.  With these long winter nights and cold days, a lot of time can be spent with them.  If the subject or part of the report is of no interest to you - just skip over it.  You'll see what I mean if you look at a few.  As a kind of "gallows humor" observation, because they're all real events that went wrong, involving real people and their lives-  and unfortunately, sometimes their deaths and injuries - those reports can make for some pretty dramatic and compelling reading, once you get behind the sometimes dry technical expositions.

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, February 3, 2011 2:04 PM

Railway Investigation Report

Runaway/Derailment

Canadian National

Freight Train L-567-51-29

Mile 184.8, Lillooet Subdivision, Near Lillooet, British Columbia

29 June 2006

Report Number R06V0136

See pp. 27 and 35 of the Report (Pages 35 and 43 of 59 of the 'PDF" version) on the "Empty/ Load Devices": 

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2006/r06v0136/r06v0136.pdf (59 pgs., approx. 1.60 MB) 

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2006/r06v0136/r06v0136.asp  (HTML version)

Transportation Safety Board of Canada Reports and Studies at:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/index.asp 

NTSB rail accident investigation reports at: 

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/r_acc.htm 

NTSB Railroad Studies and Special Reports:

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/R_Stu.htm 

There's also a webpage with links by year to older ICC accident reports, but I can't find that right at the moment - I believe Deggesty has that one handy, though.  There are also less formal FRA accident investigation reports. 

- Paul North. 

EDIT: ICC's "INVESTIGATIONS OF RAILROAD ACCIDENTS 1911 - 1993", at:

http://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/ 

then/ or -

http://ntl1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_railroads 

See also an independent partial compilation, at: http://www.railaccrep.com/ 

FRA Headquarters-Level Railroad Accident Investigations

http://www.fra.dot.gov/pages/1696.shtml 

I'm done now. - PDN. 

 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, February 3, 2011 2:11 PM

Wow, great, Paul. Thanks, once again. Between you and the others, maybe I shouldn't even try to tackle 'H' today, (I've got a lot to study/learn) but I think I still will anyway.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Denver / La Junta
  • 10,820 posts
Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, February 3, 2011 2:56 PM

Ground Switch (what they are talking about is the switch stand.)

Good example is a RACOR 22-P variable switch stand ("barrel switch" to a ground monkey) or a 36-E hub switch (rigid).....

http://www.voestalpine.com/etc/picprod/railway_infrastructure/switchsystems/hytronics/nortrak/en.PICPARSYSContentBeschreibung.49730.File.tmp/Switch_Stands_Brochure.html

Basically, the handle starts on the ground, is lifted up and over and then placed back on the ground...

*** And then there is the #336E which is part of the recipe for a submarine switch....but that's not until we get  to "S"Sigh...which is well after I get sent to time-out in the doghouse that the scotties have deeded-over to me.Confused

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, February 3, 2011 2:59 PM

Back about the middle of Page 16 of this thread, Nance asked the following with regard to a couple photos I posted of a "Bad Order" card on a boxcar which stated that it needed the "#3 & 4 brake beams":

WMNB4THRTL
  Thanks, Paul. Can anybody help me out a bit more on what a brake beam is and what is SCT? I have an idea on the brake beam thing from the photo but I'm still not quite clear.

Edit--I found more on 'brake beam' now, so I think I'm OK, at least sort of. Still can't find SCT.

  Well, now I have a credible answer, from a portion of an FRA Report*, as follows:

"All were air tested according to Single Car Test Standard; AAR S-486-04 using NYAB/AAR approved Computerized Single Car Testing Device. All test results are included in this report in the mechanical section. All portions passed the SCT testing."

From that, I conclude that "SCT" = "Single Car Test" of the air brake system, which would make sense since the subject car was a single car by itself, and the defect involved the brake system.  End of mystery.  Thumbs Up

- Paul North. 

*"March 25, 2008- Canton, Massachusetts - Other Impacts Incident - Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority (MBTA), FRA’s Accident/Incident Investigation Report, File #: HQ-2008-33", top of Page 9 of 12, at:  http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/Accident_Investigation/2008/hq200833.pdf 

A CSX local freight crew spotted a loaded lumber car at a lumber yard, but a few hours later it rolled out of the facility, over a derail ("rabbit" to Deggesty and now Nance), onto a branch line, and then into a MBTA commuter train, etc. - sobering reading. - PDN. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Thursday, February 3, 2011 9:12 PM

Bruce!


Sorry I missed your question about the diamond.


It didn't look like there were any drifts over it, so I expect that the two railroads just ran their trains normally over it.  I doubt that any ice formed in the flangeways, and the snow that was caught there wouldn't present much of an obstacle.


Speaking of which, my lineside reporter says that there have now been freights in both directions over our line.  I'm also told that Proviso's regular contractor for snow clearing is digging out tracks in the yard (usually they've only had intermodal parking lots to contend with).  I'm sure they have to come up with some creative options on where to put all of the snow from this storm!


MC, why are you kicking da boyz out of their doghouse, hmmm?

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, February 3, 2011 10:19 PM

Carl, glad to hear things are getting back at least closer to normal.

Paul & MC- I'm still working to process all that.

All my letter 'G' questions remain 'in play' and up for grabs. I've now completed 'H' through/incl 'L'. My questions are (incl one comment):

1. hot box detector-- do these work with like an infrared type of a detector where it senses heat?

2. hunting-- (from Glossary,) in part it says, "Destructive tendency of a truck to nose from side-to-side..." Is it destructive bc it wears on the flanges somehow? How would it be corrected, or can it be?

3. I'm unclear what a lead is, in terms of tracks.

4. A comment, not a question. Most all you guys will know this, probably better than I do, but for anyone who doesn't know, whenever you release a handbrake, at least on the type I know, only let/make the wheel take about 3-4 turns.  Otherwise, the chain will drag on the wheels and cause excessive wear, thus weakening, of the chain. Trust me, if you do this and they know it was you, or can prove it, you will be extremely unpopular!! Fortunately, I was only taught this and did not have to experience it firsthand. (WHEW!!)

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, February 3, 2011 10:25 PM

Giesl ejector--if I had time tonight, I would go upstairs to my Trains indices, and look for the item that appeared in Trains back in the fifties. It was a device that improved the efficiency of steam engines, butapparently its performance on the C&O engine was less than impressive. Paul North may find the reference.

Ground throw switches--thanks MC for the link; I now know more of what changes have been made in switch stands so as to improve security. As I recall, the IC used ground throw switches on its crossovers between the two mains. I wonder--did anybody ever get a hernia from reaching down to the ground to lift and throw the levr?

Wheel flats--it seems that there was an engineer who had to make a sudden stop and, as a result, ground flats on all the drivers. When called on the carpet, he aked if he knew how long they were, and he began, "about the length of a dollar", and the super interrupted him, "they were SIX INCHES long!" The engineer replied, "You did not let me finish; I was going to say the length of a dollar bill." Needless to say, the drivers received new tires all around (though he may have ground through some of the tires).

Johnny

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, February 3, 2011 10:31 PM

*"March 25, 2008- Canton, Massachusetts - Other Impacts Incident - Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority (MBTA), FRA’s Accident/Incident Investigation Report, File #: HQ-2008-33", top of Page 9 of 12, at:  http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/Accident_Investigation/2008/hq200833.pdf 

A CSX local freight crew spotted a loaded lumber car at a lumber yard, but a few hours later it rolled out of the facility, over a derail ("rabbit" to Deggesty and now Nance), onto a branch line, and then into a MBTA commuter train, etc. - sobering reading. - PDN. 

[/quote]Come on, Paul, you know that other people have talked of "rabbits."Smile If it had been a split rail derail, the probability of the car's being derailed would have been much greater. Incidentally, all of the derails that I noticed on the sidings coming off the Salt Lake City TRAXX are the split rail type. Each one has a switch stand with a "D" on a purple background.

Johnny

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Friday, February 4, 2011 1:04 AM

Thanks, Johnny.

My apologies, not all my "G's" were unanswered. Sorry, I guess I overworked my brain! OopsEmbarrassed Anyway, back to sleep now, as I obviously need it.


Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, February 4, 2011 5:51 AM

Deggesty
  Giesl ejector--if I had time tonight, I would go upstairs to my Trains indices, and look for the item that appeared in Trains back in the fifties. It was a device that improved the efficiency of steam engines, butapparently its performance on the C&O engine was less than impressive. Paul North may find the reference.

[snip]  I wonder--did anybody ever get a hernia from reaching down to the ground to lift and throw the levr? 

  You might have been looking for quite a while, Johnny:  Smile, Wink & Grin

Giesl ejector, a replacement for the conventional blast pipe
from Trains January 1968  p. 27
The performance on the C&O switcher was pretty good - "Man, you really got something there !" - but too late in the life of steam locomotives to cause any interest in further installation, as diesels were taking over even then.  It's an interesting article on the interaction between technology, business, and society.
Yep !  Or, a back injury, etc.  That's why the bow-style throwing levers are now so prevalent. 
- Paul North. 
"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Friday, February 4, 2011 11:03 AM

Good morning, this time at a more reasonable hour. (EDIT: Well, I started in the a.m.) Many, many thanks to you all, as always! BowBow

Is anyone else having trouble with the two links, Paul's recent one and the one from MC? Neither are working properly for me. I get gibberish from MC's and 'server not found' from Paul's. Can anyone pls help?

I've now gone through 'M.' --

1. I'm stumbling on second definition of 'manifest.' In Glossary it's shown, in part, as:

"Also, a freight train carrying goods not hauled in unit trains or intermodal trains." I guess I'm a bit confused on what they mean.

2. Are MARS lights a thing of the past? Did I read somewhere they have been removed even from vintage locos or am I mixing that up with something else?

That's all I know of for now. Make it a safe day.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, February 4, 2011 11:39 AM

MC's "Voestalpine" and my FRA link both worked for me a minute ago. 

"Manifest" is a misnomer to me, too - unless it means that you need a 'manifest' document of what's on it to be able to know what it's hauling !  I prefer to use the term 'general' freight, which means all other kinds of freight or commodities in various types of cars in a single train, which may not be sorted or limited to specific kinds or types, etc., as they are with unit and intermodal trains.  In other words, the stereotypical freight train. 

I don't know if the MARS lights have been removed selectively or more generally/ broadly, or if they conform to the FRA's 'ditch lights' rule (doubt it).  They can be a higher-maintenance and harder-parts-to-get item, which may be an equally compelling reasonto remove them if they're not doing something unique or useful, unless the loco is a museum piece or historical display.

- Paul North.   

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Friday, February 4, 2011 12:09 PM

Manifest is a general slop train.  For what the average joe would consider a manifest, we call a "wheel", or wheel report.  I guess you can use waybill in its place, but most of those are in the computer. 

 

I believe MARC (maryland area rail commuter) still has a number of locomotives with just Mars lights and not ditch lights. 

 

--what else --

 

A lead is the piece of track between the mainline switch and the actual industry.  It is part of the customer's siding, but cars on it may not be accessible to the industry.

Handbrake chain - we have to release the chain so there is ample slack and painted links are showing (if they are any).  If that means the chain drags on the axle?  So be it.  If the quick release lever actually works (which is getting rare anymore - anyone else notice that?) then I'll use that.  Otherwise, I'll use my trusty "brakeman on a steeck".  (my apologies to Jeff Dunham.)

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Friday, February 4, 2011 12:47 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr

 Deggesty:
  Giesl ejector--if I had time tonight, I would go upstairs to my Trains indices, and look for the item that appeared in Trains back in the fifties. It was a device that improved the efficiency of steam engines, butapparently its performance on the C&O engine was less than impressive. Paul North may find the reference.

[snip]  I wonder--did anybody ever get a hernia from reaching down to the ground to lift and throw the levr? 

  You might have been looking for quite a while, Johnny:  Smile, Wink & Grin

Giesl ejector, a replacement for the conventional blast pipe
from Trains January 1968  p. 27
The performance on the C&O switcher was pretty good - "Man, you really got something there !" - but too late in the life of steam locomotives to cause any interest in further installation, as diesels were taking over even then.  It's an interesting article on the interaction between technology, business, and society.
Yep !  Or, a back injury, etc.  That's why the bow-style throwing levers are now so prevalent. 
- Paul North. 

Now, Paul, you young whippersnapper, wait until you have attained my current age!Smile

Even if I had remembered the decade, I was looking (this morning) under "Giesl," and not "C&O", which is how it appeared in the index.  I did remember the title of the article ("Which twin has the Giesl?").

 

Johnny

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Friday, February 4, 2011 12:53 PM

Hhmm, then I guess either my computer or ISP is having issues! No luck for me on either count, oh well.

I'm done up through "O" at the moment.

Grateful I remain, for all the assistance!


Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Denver / La Junta
  • 10,820 posts
Posted by mudchicken on Friday, February 4, 2011 1:12 PM

Nance:

Somehow my bad luck with computers is starting to run off on you ... going to the doghouse to get degaussed...

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Calgary AB. Canada
  • 2,298 posts
Posted by AgentKid on Friday, February 4, 2011 1:54 PM

CShaveRR

I doubt that any ice formed in the flangeways, and the snow that was caught there wouldn't present much of an obstacle.

"Flangeway", that was the word I couldn't think of when I wrote the question. I knew they weren't frog's. I was wondering though if there wouldn't be enough buildup from one railway's flanges being forced into the spaces needed by the other Rlwy. I guess it would have to freeze up pretty good before the second train could ride up over the buildup and derail. And as I mentioned over on the other thread, it looked like BNSF got there pretty quickly after that UP WB went by.

Thanks Carl.

Bruce

 

So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.

"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere"  CP Rail Public Timetable

"O. S. Irricana"

. . . __ . ______

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, February 4, 2011 3:01 PM

WMNB4THRTL

Carl, glad to hear things are getting back at least closer to normal.

Just missed seeing an eastbound (manifest Wink) freight while we were out this morning.  It still doesn't look like Track 2 has been opened up through here.  This train was on Track 1, and came through when we'd be expecting a scoot there under normal conditions (scoot could have been a couple of minutes later--nothing in Metra about any delays).

Had to dig out our driveway again this morning, thanks to the plows filling things in for us.  Also widened it a bit in places--I actually found the edges!  Driving isn't fun right now--the roads themselves aren't bad, but the snow is piled up so high that it's difficult to see at intersections and such!

 

WMNB4THRTL
1. hot box detector-- do these work with like an infrared type of a detector where it senses heat?

I believe so.  All of the bearings generate some heat; the detector will broadcast the message when the temperature goes over a certain threshold.  Used to be that dispatchers would monitor a graph generated by the detectors in their offices and communicate with the train if there was an unusual spike.  I'm pretty sure the printouts are still accessible, but they don't have to be constantly watched.

WMNB4THRTL
2. hunting-- (from Glossary,) in part it says, "Destructive tendency of a truck to nose from side-to-side..." Is it destructive bc it wears on the flanges somehow? How would it be corrected, or can it be?

Somebody can better tell you how correctable the problem is, if indeed it is possible to correct.  More rigid trucks, and constant-contact side bearings, damp the problem a bit.  Think of the truck as a rectangle--two axles and two sideframes--with a bolster going through the center parallel to the axles.  Hunting causes the rectangle to become a non-rectangular parallelogram, usually oscillating from one extreme to the other.  This is more likely to happen at higher speeds, and in some extreme instances you can notice the car weaving from side to side--it's scary!  As you can imagine, flanges are the least of the worries--this can't be easy on the bearings or other truck components, either.

WMNB4THRTL
3. I'm unclear what a lead is, in terms of tracks.

Somebody has already answered this question, in terms of industrial leads.  It's basically a single track leading to something else--either a yard or one or more industries.  Sometimes, in the case of timetables, it's a downgraded subdivision--for example, the former C&NW Skokie Subdivision had a portion abandoned in the middle, and became the Skokie Industrial Lead on one end and the Cragin Industrial lead on the other.  In our yard, we have a pair of hump leads--tracks that lead out of the receiving yard toward the crest of the hump--capable of holding about 70-80 cars' worth of hump shove.

WMNB4THRTL
4. A comment, not a question. Most all you guys will know this, probably better than I do, but for anyone who doesn't know, whenever you release a handbrake, at least on the type I know, only let/make the wheel take about 3-4 turns.  Otherwise, the chain will drag on the wheels and cause excessive wear, thus weakening, of the chain. Trust me, if you do this and they know it was you, or can prove it, you will be extremely unpopular!! Fortunately, I was only taught this and did not have to experience it firsthand. (WHEW!!)

You may be dealing with some antique equipment there, Nance!  In most cases nowadays, you release a handbrake by pulling on, or flipping over, a lever.  The wheel doesn't spin at all, the chain just releases.  There is no axle contact to be concerned with, as the rods are usually some distance above the axles--not much in the way of brake chains underneath the cars.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, February 4, 2011 3:27 PM

WMNB4THRTL
2. re: grade-- it says steepest N. Amer. grade is on NS mainline near Saluda, NC at 4.7%. Does anybody know if they have to treat this section differently, like perhaps double/triple the hill, send extra power/locos, etc?

 

NS currently has this line out of service.  I'm pretty sure that trains were dispatched with power enough to tackle the grade, and that doubling was probably not necessary--somebody will correct me there, if I'm wrong about that.  I do know that they had to take precautions going downhill, and that there were one or two "runaway tracks" on the way down, that would be used if a train were going above a given speed (measured by the time it took to go between two signals--only if they weren't going too fast would the route be lined for them to continue down the hill).

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, February 4, 2011 3:28 PM

WMNB4THRTL
2. re: grade-- it says steepest N. Amer. grade is on NS mainline near Saluda, NC at 4.7%. Does anybody know if they have to treat this section differently, like perhaps double/triple the hill, send extra power/locos, etc?

 

NS currently has this line out of service.  I'm pretty sure that trains were dispatched with power enough to tackle the grade, and that doubling was probably not necessary--somebody will correct me there, if I'm wrong about that.  I do know that they had to take precautions going downhill, and that there were one or two "runaway tracks" on the way down, that would be used if a train were going above a given speed (measured by the time it took to go between two signals--only if they weren't going too fast would the route be lined for them to continue down the hill).

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Friday, February 4, 2011 4:04 PM

Gratitude all around; you're a great help!! (My, imagine what my final exam will look like--YIKES!!) Hmm

Well, what a productive day!! I'm through with 'Q.' (BTW, MC: what has to happen before/when we get to 'S?' Wink As soon as I get the chance, I'll be entering 'R'-ville).

1. Again, from Glossary:

Protect
To be available for service; can refer to persons or equipment.
What?!
2. quarter-locked: Can anyone help me with this? Can it still happen or is it totally prevented?

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Friday, February 4, 2011 4:09 PM

Protect means available to "rescue" a train.  For example concerning crews:  I work a first shift yard job.  After we are done with our work, we may have to hang around and protect a local/road job that is still working but short on time.   If they run out of time wihtout finishing their work, we have to go finish up.

 

Concerning equipment:  in harrisburg, PA there is usually a "protect" diesel.  In case an electric train breaks down (or the wire has issues), the diesel can then be sent out to rescue the disabled trains(s).

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, February 4, 2011 5:01 PM

I don't know if I can define "protect" better, but I'll try to elaborate.  If you're an employee and are assigned to, or called for, a job, it becomes your responsibility to protect that job--make sure that it works.  I guess, used this way, it's the opposite of "sticking" the job (the job is stuck without you).

For locomotives, it's the same thing.  The shop forces must supply enough locomotives to protect all of the assignments that are scheduled to work.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Friday, February 4, 2011 5:42 PM

CShaveRR

 WMNB4THRTL:
2. re: grade-- it says steepest N. Amer. grade is on NS mainline near Saluda, NC at 4.7%. Does anybody know if they have to treat this section differently, like perhaps double/triple the hill, send extra power/locos, etc?

 

NS currently has this line out of service.  I'm pretty sure that trains were dispatched with power enough to tackle the grade, and that doubling was probably not necessary--somebody will correct me there, if I'm wrong about that.  I do know that they had to take precautions going downhill, and that there were one or two "runaway tracks" on the way down, that would be used if a train were going above a given speed (measured by the time it took to go between two signals--only if they weren't going too fast would the route be lined for them to continue down the hill).

Carl, in all that I have seen about Saluda Grade, I saw nothing about ordinarily having to double the hill. The first installation of safety tracks had two of them, and the engineer would signal with his whistle that he had the train under control so that the operator would know that it was safe to line the switches for going on down. Later, one of the tracks was taken out, and later yet the engineer communicated by radio. As I remember, the final method was as you stated, which took human error out of the operation. The safety tracks, of course, ran up hill, and were sanded.

And, speaking of sand, I went up the grade once, in August of '64. The weed-killer train had just come down, spraying oil on the right of way and on the track. We had plenty of power on the Carolina Special--but the sanders were not working, so we crept up the hill, taking close to an hour before we reached the summit.

Johnny

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,023 posts
Posted by tree68 on Friday, February 4, 2011 6:10 PM

Grades - Seems like I've read of trains having to double Saluda, but can't cite sources.  In general, it comes down to adhesion vs tonnage.  Given a steep enough grade, sometimes a train can get over with X power and Y tonnage, other times factors (wet rail, oversized train) may conspire against the crew and they will end up doubling the hill.

Protect - Crews and power were (and still are) assigned to provide backup for VIP movements (presidential trains and the like).  They would be spaced along the route so they could quickly respond if there was a problem.

Manifest freight - I've always thought of them as a collection of individual cars - each likely with a "manifest."  They would be similar to a "grain" train, which could well have several types of grain.  

Many, if not most, of the other trains you see on the rails are single purpose - coal, coke, intermodal, grain, etc.  One you might see that could be a little confusing would be an auto parts train, significant portions of which are actually in "captive" service between auto plants (component manufacturing and final assembly).   Years ago I remember seeing daily trains on the C&O (former Pere Marquette, now CSX Saginaw line) with gons full of automobile frames (when cars had frames).  There were also a number of boxcars, which of course, contained more auto parts.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Friday, February 4, 2011 7:08 PM

Thanks to you all.

Trains ran a huge article on Saluda grade in Nov. 1984. Those of you with the DVD or back issues...

Larry, it does briefly mention doubling the hill. (EDIT And maybe tripling it?)

Johnny, looks like a major incident one month after yours, it took place Sept. '64.

WOW-- I may get sidetracked now into reading all about Saluda. Hey, anybody know of the current status? All I seem to find is that they were/are working hard to reestablish a train running there.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, February 4, 2011 8:15 PM

There were a couple of "Selected Railroad Reading" type essays on Saluda - at least 1 by C. W. McCall, as I remember, and another one by a Don Phillips or Ron Flanary type - which also mentioned "doubling and tripling the hill". 

Currently, it's out of service, but almost all of the track is still in.  There's a thread on here that saw some activity within the last month or two . . .  Quentin/ modelcar has posted to it a few times. 

"Protect" was/ is also used in the sense of "cover" or "assigned to", as in "That locomotive protects this run". 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, February 4, 2011 8:21 PM

I forgot to note, in connection with Mars lights, Metra's F40PH units, at least, are all equipped with them.

 

There's a grade on CSX's main line in Michigan out of the Kalamazoo River valley, which never appears on any table of steep grades anywhere else, or rates mention on a mountain-going railroad like the C&O, but there used to be two sidings at the top of the hill (East Saugatuck) for the use of trains doubling the hill (from New Richmond).  There was also a spur down in New Richmond or thereabouts for helper engines.  And helpers were employed on this line not all that many years ago (doubling, obviously, is frowned upon, because the whole railroad is blocked while one train moves up, down, and up again, and requires at least three pump-ups of air).  Doubling was probably eliminated by the use of AC motive power, which can literally inch its way up, if necessary.  Nowadays, coal trains fight this grade with just two or three of these units (usually BNSF's, bringing the train from Wyoming).  About six years ago, Pat and I were witness to a CP haulage-rights train that hit the foot of the grade at a pretty good clip.  We watched the entire train, then drove out the long way around, and still made it to East Saugatuck as the lead unit was crawling past the grade crossing.  His speed increased markedly as more of the train went by.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, February 4, 2011 9:31 PM

 

America�s steepest mainline grade
from Trains November 1984  p. 26
 
memories of Saluda Grade
from Trains May 1981  p. 31
 
Saluda sees through traffic again
from Trains November 1994  p. 40
 
SD60s on Saluda
from Trains May 1988  p. 24
 
other main lines now idle
from Trains June 2003  p. 50
"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy