Delawareans who want to board a commercial airplane or train in the future will first have to obtain a federally compliant driver's license or state identification card that meets new post-9/11 security standards.......To obtain a federally compliant driver's license or identification card, residents will have to show their original birth certificates, Social Security card and two other forms of identification, such as a utility bill or a current state-issued driver's license, said Jennifer Cohan, director of the Division of Motor Vehicles......Residents are not required to obtain the new form of ID, but they won't be able to travel by commercial airliner or train after the 2014 and 2017 deadlines if they don't, Cohan said.(highlights mine)
The above is a partial quote from the article in the Delaware News Journal http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20100601/NEWS/6010327/Del-to-launch-federal-ID-initiative
I suppose it was just a matter of time until this happened.
What a mentality we have in this country! We worry endlessly about what harm a few terrorists could do to us, imposing all sorts of restrictions and limiting the freedoms of its citizens, while at the same time we do not barely bat an eyelash about the potential disaster building in the gulf oil leak: http://daviddegraw.org/2010/06/will-the-bp-oil-spill-set-off-a-supersonic-tsunami/. Forget the terrorists - what we need to fear the most is ourselves.
Ok, I'm off my
Don't remember which of the founding fathers I'm paraphrasing, but the words ring true:
"Those who would trade their freedom for security, will end up having neither freedom nor security."
Didn't it ever occur to the people who originated this stroke of genius that documents can be forged?
Oh, well, just one more reason to do my traveling in my personal vehicle rather than by train.
And to avoid Delaware as well as Arizona...
Chuck
Used to be that only 'driver's licenses' and the 'piloting' of planes and ships were regarded as mere 'privileges' - not rights - that were 'granted' and so could be regulated and taken away by the government without a compelling reason. You were still able to walk down the public streets and be a passenger on any number of conveyances without any kind of licensing or ID.
Now it seems to be spreading from planes to trains. Why stop there ? What's next ? Going down the size/ capacity 'scale' - Why not inter-city buses ? Why not mass transit trains and buses ? Why not school buses ? Why not mini-vans ? Why not SUVs ? Why not passengers in taxis ? Why not passengers in private cars on public roadways ? Where's the rational line to draw an end to this ?
zardoz [snip] Forget the terrorists - what we need to fear the most is ourselves.
You betcha. "We have met the enemy - and he is us." - Cartoon character Pogo, circa 1960's. Or, as I've said before - Robert Townsend, the now-deceased former CEO of Avis Rent-a-Car, said in the mid-1960's in his book Up the Organization ! something to the effect of: ''We don't need to fear the Russians taking over and destroying our society - we've perfected do-it-yourself methods." (The context - as best as I can recall - was his criticizing something like GE selling defective airplane engines, escaping criminal liability, and deducting the resulting fine from it income taxes as a 'business expense' . . . )
- Paul North.
Well, here is an example of several branches of the government working in concert to eradicate invalid identifcation documents:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/30/authorities-seize-107-passports-and-visas-during-b/
Whilst authorities are oft under considerable manpower shortages, most are doing "the best that they can," probably unseen by most of us and generally unreported except perhaps locally. Forum fulminating has no redeeming social value.
I personaly have never had a problem with being asked for identification by authorities. It's part of their job, mandated by legislation passed by our elected representatives. May we all be so noble as to be kind, generous, and helpful to those that are "just doing their job." Politeness and affability can go a long way toward resolving conflict.
For example, by simply returning supermarket shopping carts a few yards to the storefront, we can make it easier on some young man just doing his harried low-wage job, and maybe we can get a tad more exercise in the process of such returning, like our mothers taught us to do.
... and the worst part is that it doesn't even make us safer. We are giving up all our rights for nothing. Perhaps you remember that documents are now required to protect our Canadian border from some imaginary bogeyman, and the new biometric super secure passports manufacturing was outsourced to overseas companies -- including one in Thailand.
The paranoia shows no signs of peaking, so we might just as well get used to it.
Land of the free and home of the brave is a distant memory.
And our young don't think it's a big deal becuse they have been having their lockers and persons searched since elementary school. To them it's just business as usual.
The day that airport style security comes to train stations, I will stop traveling by rail, just as I have already stopped traveling by air.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe VetThe day that airport style security comes to train stations, I will stop traveling by rail, just as I have already stopped traveling by air.
May that day never come. Two years ago, for the first and last time, I had to show identification, when we were boarding the Capitol Limited in Washington. Since 2007, we have taken an extended trip each year, and that was the only time, out of many, in both Canada and the U.S.A., that I had to show any identification. Each year, we have traveled on railpasses, and no conductor even asked to look at the railpasses; all they were interested in were our transportation and space coupons. Last year, when we came back in from Canada (at Rouse's Point), we were not even asked for a customs declaration. Perhaps we have been profiled?
I wonder, does this regulation in Delaware apply to visitors to the state, or only to residents?
Johnny
Reminds me of how small towns increase tourism...
Slowly decrease the speed limit to zero and then pass an ordinance against backing up!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
To the guy above, I'd expect it applies to everybody in any way having something to do with Delaware, other than passing the whole way through. It's only a matter of a few years before this becomes the norm for the country I'm sure.
Something I find interesting about the article...
"In addition, 60 people were deported to Mexico in lieu of prosecution and those violators will never be granted lawful entry into the United States, officials said. "
-Duh-THEY NEVER HAD LAWFUL ENTRY INTO THE US TO BEGIN WITH! So, they let them get away for free! And that goes against what is said just a little further down the article about "vigorous prosecution" of the offenders.
With regard to the comment: "We are giving up all our rights for nothing." may I respectfully ask: Where in the United States Constitution (and its amendments) do you find any mention of a right of privacy? I know, I know: We all have an expectation of privacy (me too !). But the current "hue and cry," especially in the media, about privacy is somewhat ill-informed and mis-directed, unless and until such is legislated by our elected representatives.
The two most obvious issues that might call for this super I.D. card are illegal immigration and terrorism. For terrorism, the federal government wants a super I.D. card. For illegal immigration, the federal government sues Arizona because the federal government regards asking for an I.D. card to be profiling.
I agree with Phoebe Vet, if they get to the point that they do the same thing for trains as for air, count me out.
travelingengineer With regard to the comment: "We are giving up all our rights for nothing." may I respectfully ask: Where in the United States Constitution (and its amendments) do you find any mention of a right of privacy? I know, I know: We all have an expectation of privacy (me too !). But the current "hue and cry," especially in the media, about privacy is somewhat ill-informed and mis-directed, unless and until such is legislated by our elected representatives.
The right to privacy might not be spelled out in such exact wording, but I believe that the fourth amendment has something to say about it: it guards against searches, arrests, and seizures of property without a specific warrant.or a "probable cause" to believe a crime has been committed. Some rights to privacy have been inferred from this amendment and others by the Supreme Court.
'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'
There is nothing either instrusive or improper about showing an official identification when asked by proper authority.
If its good enough for our conservative friends in Arizona to legislate and implement its use, then its certainly good enough for the rest of the country.
Yea verily, "Murray" !
Phoebe Vet The day that airport style security comes to train stations, I will stop traveling by rail, just as I have already stopped traveling by air.
It is amazing to me how people on train boards complain how airlines get a free ride compared to Amtrak. They get goverment provided ATC, goverment provided airports and so one. Now that Amtrak is starting to get better funding, they might get some of the other stuff that airlines are stuck with, and they complain about that! Becareful what you wish for!
An "expensive model collector"
If you live in Wilmington Delaware you can get around the law by driving to Philadelphia to board Amtrak or an aircraft. The rest of the state you can drive to either Washington or Baltimore. All these cities offer better train and air service than Wilmington. Dover,its capital has very limited commercial air service and no passenger rail service.
You will need an original birth certificate to obtain a passport or to join the US armed forces. You would think that all US passport holders would comply with the Federally compliant driver's license.
For a long time before 9/11 I would take my passport when traveling to Canada especially by air or rail. Both US and Canadian Immagration officers seemed to treat passport holders with respect and quickly moved you along.
zardoz What a mentality we have in this country! We worry endlessly about what harm a few terrorists could do to us, imposing all sorts of restrictions and limiting the freedoms of its citizens, while at the same time we do not barely bat an eyelash about the potential disaster building in the gulf oil leak: http://daviddegraw.org/2010/06/will-the-bp-oil-spill-set-off-a-supersonic-tsunami/. Forget the terrorists - what we need to fear the most is ourselves.
*
Ben Fulford reports: "Emergency evacuations plans have been drawn up for entire Gulf of Mexico region as secret financial negotiations head to climax.
Murray There is nothing either instrusive or improper about showing an official identification when asked by proper authority. If its good enough for our conservative friends in Arizona to legislate and implement its use, then its certainly good enough for the rest of the country.
Maybe you and your conservative friends in Arizona don't mind living in a society where everyone must carry and produce on demand a government approved, background investigated, national ID, but those of us who grew up in a free country are offended. There is a mountain of case law from less paranoid days that says the government needs to show cause before intruding into your life. In the past, courts have even ruled that there is no such thing as a routine traffic stop. A police Officer must be able to show cause why he stopped a vehicle. The creeping paranoia of the last ten years is eroding your rights and you don't even seem to care.
So far, Amtrak is still treating it's passengers like valued customers, while the airlines are treating their passengers like everyone is a criminal.
Phoebe Vet Murray There is nothing either instrusive or improper about showing an official identification when asked by proper authority. If its good enough for our conservative friends in Arizona to legislate and implement its use, then its certainly good enough for the rest of the country. Maybe you and your conservative friends in Arizona don't mind living in a society where everyone must carry and produce on demand a government approved, background investigated, national ID, but those of us who grew up in a free country are offended. There is a mountain of case law from less paranoid days that says the government needs to show cause before intruding into your life. In the past, courts have even ruled that there is no such thing as a routine traffic stop. A police Officer must be able to show cause why he stopped a vehicle. The creeping paranoia of the last ten years is eroding your rights and you don't even seem to care. So far, Amtrak is still treating it's passengers like valued customers, while the airlines are treating their passengers like everyone is a criminal.
Well quite frankly you can maintain your "bunker mentality" if you so choose.
The reality is life as we know it will continue as normal despite your ramblings of paranoia and so-called "loss of freedom."
I really enjoy the irony of this situation. Conservatives and reactionaries deplore the intrusions of big government but appear to have little to no complaint about background checks, compliant ID cards, etc. being required for just about everything.
CSSHEGEWISCH I really enjoy the irony of this situation. Conservatives and reactionaries deplore the intrusions of big government but appear to have little to no complaint about background checks, compliant ID cards, etc. being required for just about everything.
"The times they are a-changin'"
You'd have to be an ostrich with you head in the sand not to see that.
I am astonished that the moderator of this forum permits the completely off-topic fulminations, invective, personal affrontery, fault-finding, and general repetition ad nauseum, by persons able to safely remain anonymous, to persist.
Do we not all have better use for our brain cells? How about praise, on-topic railroad commentary, enlighted dialogue on railroad topics, alerts on emerging railroad issues, etc.
How about helping a child, rather than embarrassing an adult?
How about getting outdoors for a calming walk?
MurrayThe reality is life as we know it will continue as normal....
"Normal"? Compared to what? Wake up, dude!
What's sad is that a world-view like Murray's (no offense intended) seems to indeed be the new "normal". Having lived in a comfortable, complacent environment has dulled the perspective of so many people. They cannot seem to understand the broader implications of events that are, as we speak, creating the future in which we all must live (or die).
Yes, right now, the restrictions on freedoms still only affect a minority of the citizens. But what if that changes? What if, for example, the government decided that for our 'benefit', cigarettes become illegal. Or pornography? Or Hinduism? Or photography of trains? As more restrictions are being places on the citizens, more and more people are beginning to realize just how far in to their lives the government reaches. And what happens when persons with a less benevolent ideology tricks the population with fancy rhetoric and becomes elected? The pieces are already in place for such a person (or party) to wield such authority that it will be impossible to oppose it.
Just yesterday Obama visited just a few miles from where I live. There were some folks that wished to protest his policies. Guess what? The protesters were kept blocks away from where the media was allowed to cover. The protesters were denied their rights to voice their displeasure with Obama's choices. Whether you agree with the protesters or not, the fact that they were kept away says something about the current state of affairs.
Fortunately, we still have the freedom to voice our opinions (unless I disappear in the next few days...). There are many places that have no where near the freedoms that we currently enjoy. My concern is that the US does not become like them, because I happen to strongly believe in an individuals right to do what he pleases, as long as his actions do not impinge on the rights of others.
Whew, I'm glad I got that off my chest before this thread gets locked.
travelingengineerI am astonished that the moderator of this forum permits the completely off-topic fulminations, invective, personal affrontery, fault-finding, and general repetition ad nauseum, by persons able to safely remain anonymous, to persist.
And yet you keep coming back to this thread to read and comment on it.
And speaking of anonymous, is Travellingengineer really your name?
Fellas.................. In the interest of all, let's see if we can get this thread back to the railroad related issue being discussed, and not wander into party politics and name calling. Fair enough?-Norris user/moderator
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
National ID cards have always been seen as a slippery slope leading to more and more erosion of liberty. Certainly the intent with this new federally approved card is to have all states adopt it. What’s next? Any card can be faked if enough effort is put into it. So the quest for the perfect ID leads to a spiral of ever increasing criteria to prove your identity.
zardoz And yet you keep coming back to this thread to read and comment on it. And speaking of anonymous, is Travellingengineer really your name?
And, no, my name is not "Travellingengineer." My (screen) name is "travelingengineer" with lower-case "t" and only one "l."
BTW: I am impressed by your considerable railroad background (based on your bio). Very impressive! It would truly be a delight to learn more about railroading from you, that I admittedly do not know. My paternal grandfather was a locomotive engineer with the ICRR, and I cherish what I know of him and his career.
travelingengineermy name is not "Travellingengineer." My (screen) name is "travelingengineer" with lower-case "t" and only one "l."
Oops, my duh. Minus 10 points for me.
Regarding this whole privacy thing, maybe it's time us oldsters give up on the whole issue. People today do not seem interested or concerned, and the youngsters seem to delight in putting their entire lives (facebook, myspace, etc.) online. I am glad that I have protected myself to such an extent that googling my real name results in zero hits.
When I really understand the amount of surveilance the government does on it's citizens (http://www.aclu.org/spy-files), I realize that it is already far too late to do anything about it.
So, after taking my long, cool-down walk, I've realized that I may just as well enjoy what I have now.
Zardoz:
You undoubtedly are right, but that doesn't mean I have to go along quietly with each new intrusive step.
Our youth don't care because you don't miss what you never had.
We who remember when we were relatively free of constant government surveillance DO miss it.
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