This thread has gone its course and then some. Let's move on....
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
zugmann I'm wondering if Eleanor Roosevelt was afraid of the Government? Or of goats?
I'm wondering if Eleanor Roosevelt was afraid of the Government?
Or of goats?
travelingengineerOne can never fear, as long as one is leading a proper life.
And just who decides what a "proper life" is?
travelingengineerThere is nothing anywhere of which I am embarrassed or ashamed, nor is......immoral, unethical, fattening, irreverent, or unpatriotic.
The fact that you mention all of those things as legitimate reasons a law enforcement person might detain you shows just how deep the blindness pervades our national consciousness. Except for the "illegal" you mentioned, every item you indicated should absolutely none of anybody elses business.
I'll go one step further and guess that you are a young-to-middle-aged white male. A young black or hispanic or middle-eastern male might not feel exactly the same way about the 'freedoms' he enjoys.
Some time ago some disgruntled idiot here used a penknife to stab the Assistant District Attorney in the back right in the middle of the main lobby of the Courthouse. The ADA was not seriously injured (had to be talked into going to the hospital to be checked) but it could have been much worse. So now the entrance to the Courthouse has a metal detector to walk through and no-one is allowed to bring a knife or knife like instrument into the Courthouse. Probably a good thing, given the kind of people that are there to do some of the business that is conducted there and their mental state whilst there (or caused them to have to be there!) Best not to take any sort of weapon like instrument in the Courthouse. I can understand that.
I have to accept this inconvenience to get to the Clerk of Court office to make an alimony payment.
But there are several things that bother me about it... none of which I note anyone has mentioned here.
I carry a Swiss Army Knife with me all the time in the event I need to use one of the screwdrivers or the magnifying glass, scissors, pliers or nail file, etc. Granted, I doubt very much if I will ever need to use any of those implements on my favourite pocket toy whilst in the Courthouse, but having to be sure to leave it in the car is a bother. I truly do understand why nobody can take any knives or knife like instruments in the courthouse; pen-knives, letter openers, nail files, fingernail clippers, etc. included.
YET, I can take a ball point pen with me, which I believe can inflict a much worse wound in a person's back than even the "big blade" on my Swiss Army Knife. I have seen combs and hairbrushes allowed in that could be even worse! Ever seen one of those "de-tangler" stiletto pokers on the end of metal comb?
I can understand the concern of what I might have with me because none of the people there really know me, nor can be in any way assured that I am not there to do harm for some dumb reason.
Okay, but I don't know the security personnel either and I have no idea whether they are intent upon wreaking havoc upon me and my fellow divorcées there just to pay Allmymoney. And the Security Guards have GUNS! I have also observed Judges and other personnel enter and bypass the metal detector and their attaché cases passed around the x-ray machine. Just what do they have on their person or in their "executive/legal lunch boxes" that need to bypass the detection system and why in the world am I to trust their mental state to be such as to not be intent on doing mayhem?
I wear steel-toed shoes and they will set off the metal detector I have to walk through after I empty all my pockets of everything - - car keys (wow, there's another stabbing instrument that can be carried into the building!), checkbook, wallet, cell phone, etc. I even I have to remove my belt and hold my pants up with one hand whilst I step through the metal detector. I tell them about the shoes and offer to remove them if they want, but they won't allow me to remove my shoes (Hmmm... are they fearful of an odor attack?). After I get through the metal detector and it has gone "BEEEEEEP" due to my shoes, they tell me to lift my pant legs and show them my socks! (I told them that I am going to fore-go putting on socks one day just to get their reaction.)
But what do socks have to do with the dagger I might have hidden in the sole of my shoe or up my pant leg? I did ask them one time how showing my socks precluded my having a Howitzer strapped to my back and they said the detection system gave an indication of where the metal object is on the person passing through the machine, so they would know to look at my back if one were there.
I grew up watching the Lone Ranger and the Cisco Kid (and Rin-Tin-Tin) and I know the legends of Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett... I know that I am to take care of myself and defend the innocent and downtrodden. So, I fancy myself as a "red-blooded American male" and that I can take care of/defend myself.
"I" know that I am NOT "up to no good", so I get this miffed feeling that my "freedoms" are being infringed when I am forced to rely on some stranger to do my protecting. I'm an altruistic nice guy, so let me have a bigger gun than any bad guy can possibly have and I'll take 'im out at the first inkling of trouble!
Okay, okay, we all know that is "Fantasy", but don't we all "feel" like it???
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
...
self-deleted.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
And to think I spent 26 years (and gave up most of my personal freedom) to defend the rights that so many here seem to think are so insignificant that they can be terminated at the whim of some control freak...
Chuck (Retired MSgt, USAF - from combat outfits, not spooks)
I had no problems whatsoever in Chicago Union Station last December, changing trains from the Southwest Chief to the City of New Orleans, and then from the City of New Orleans back onto the Southwest Chief several days later. Despite an outbound schedule delay, Amtrak folks were ready to assist us all, being very helpful, understanding, non-intrusive, and cordial.
A sworn and authorized law enforcement officer can search my body, clothing, baggage, compartment, automobile, even home, for good reason and perhaps with a search warrant. There is nothing anywhere of which I am embarrassed or ashamed, nor is illegal, immoral, unethical, fattening, irreverent, or unpatriotic. One can never fear, as long as one is leading a proper life. We should always be respectful and cooperative, to those folks "just doing their job," just as we might have them do to us in our profession. To do otherwise is simply to attract unnecessary attention and then create one's own delay. Just deal with these security moments with calm and openness. No fear!
uphoggerOTOH, I was going to get on my train one night in Chicago during some festival. They had security officers searching people's bags for alcohol and glass containers. One of them asked if he could look in my bag, to which I replied, "No, you may not." It took him by surprise and he asked, "Why not?" "Because," I said, "I'm the engineer!"
While in Chicago on our trip this year, I read a card that was available for passengers; the card explained that there were going to be random searches of passengers' carry-on baggage--and if you refused to allow your baggage to be searched, you would not be allowed on the train you had expected to ride. Apparently operating crew members were exempt from this requirement.
The last time we were in Chicago on this trip, there was a great celebration (including a parade) of the hockey victory, and many people were going home by train (I was slightly discommoded when buying lunch for my wife and myself, but no one really hindered me in any way), mostly by coach. I wonder if there was a search of hand baggage that day.
Question: what is wrong with carrying glass containers on board trains? I know that you may not consume carry-on alcohol beverages unless you are traveling in sleeper space.
Johnny
uphoggerHey, Murray, are you just a UP fan or do you work for the Omaha Duck Club, too?
I am a retired USAF MSgt (Signals Intelligence Analyst (202X0/1N4X1) who now does the same line of work as a civilian.
Your observations could not be more inaccurate or misleading for this forum.
I'm just curious: how is Obama any less of a "flake" than Palin? Mind you, I don't care for either of them. One Big Assed Mistake, America! Nor do I want Caribou Barbie for president. What I'd like is a system that doesn't encourage cronyism nor career politics. The people in power spend less time governing and more time trying to get reelected.
When it comes to the Department of Homeland Security, all I have to say is "KGB". Now before you get all hot and bothered about it, what did the KGB do? Pretty much all the things DHS does. How do I know this? Because I spent most of my Army career as an intelligence analyst (98C3PRU). Big government always has, always will scare me. People who think they can govern me better than I can govern myself scare me. Living in a police state scares me. OTOH when you have a situation in this country concerning such topics as illegal immigration, terrorist activities, etc., you simply cannot sit idly by and wish the problem away. Our federal government has taken this stance for years with the expected results, at least from most people's viewpoint. The State of Arizona has at least taken a pro-active stand on the problem. So most of the 1.2 million illegals coming across the southern border are Hispanic. How is that profiling when people are asked for their ID? It's a pattern. The real problem is that an estimated 65,000 individuals from "countries of interest" are part of that larger number. Do we have terrorist cells either operating or lying dormant in this country? To paraphrase da yoopers, "Yassir, youbetcha!!" Do I like being searched and questioned? No, I do not, but until we can resolve the forementioned problems, we'd better get used to it. OTOH, I was going to get on my train one night in Chicago during some festival. They had security officers searching people's bags for alcohol and glass containers. One of them asked if he could look in my bag, to which I replied, "No, you may not." It took him by surprise and he asked, "Why not?" "Because," I said, "I'm the engineer!"
Hey, Murray, are you just a UP fan or do you work for the Omaha Duck Club, too?
Murphy's Laws of Railroading: Anyone who has a favorite railroad has never worked for one.
If you likened my argument to Fox news, then you missed the whole point.
We have some people so worried about infinging on anyone's rights, that they are creating an environment where they are limiting freedom for the whole as a result.
It would be nice to say that we need no security whatsoever, and everyone would play nice with each other. But that isn't how it works. It's only going to get worse, folks. No, you don't have to go overboard and forbid photography from public places, but in the same respect, you just can't stand idly by. There's a medium somewhere in there. But that medium will always be too severe for those that are afraid of any government, and never enough for those personally affected.
zugmann Besides, even without terrorists, we have enough drug heads shooting each other (and any bystanders) every day in every city. Pretty sad as many Americans are afraid to leave their houses at night if they live in an urban environment. But yeah, we're "free". (and drugs don't hurt anybody...) Maybe we hit the point where our own freedom is limiting us.
Besides, even without terrorists, we have enough drug heads shooting each other (and any bystanders) every day in every city. Pretty sad as many Americans are afraid to leave their houses at night if they live in an urban environment. But yeah, we're "free". (and drugs don't hurt anybody...)
Maybe we hit the point where our own freedom is limiting us.
So as we celebrate July 4, let us not forget what the day is all about: A Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[71] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." highlights mine
If Big Brother is watching everyone and everything, how will it be possible for anyone to organize a similar course of action, should it become necessary (which is my whole point of contention regarding totolitarian policies: i.e. having to show papers to board a train).
Right now I'm ok with most of what our government does. Much of what they do I do not understand, but I still have some confidence that there are those with much more knowlege than I that are doing what they feel is in the best interest of the citizens. But if somehow a flake (like Palin) got elected, then all bets are off, and lacking the ability to effectively protest the governments' policies would be a dark period for the US, akin to the dark ages or to pre-1945 Germany.
blownout cylinder And we do not live in that dangerous a world that we need to be paranoid of even our neighbours--much like they are in the middle east---which is far far worse than here--- Let us try to realize that we are not the middle east, nor are we Afganistan. You do not have suicide bombers going around killing and maiming dozens of people every single day. Even there, the security police don't go around asking to see your papers everywhere you go. They know who they are looking for---
And we do not live in that dangerous a world that we need to be paranoid of even our neighbours--much like they are in the middle east---which is far far worse than here---
Let us try to realize that we are not the middle east, nor are we Afganistan. You do not have suicide bombers going around killing and maiming dozens of people every single day. Even there, the security police don't go around asking to see your papers everywhere you go. They know who they are looking for---
Before 9/11, we had the first bombing of the WTC. We had Oklahoma City. We had a nutjob that flew his plane into an IRS building. Granted terrorism is not happening every day (yet), but it is happening. MY personal belief is we were a little too lax in the months and years leading up to 9/11 as it WAS happening in most other countries. Maybe if we started preparations, we wouldn't have gone to such extremes when 9/11 did happen (even if it did calm down a bit).
Sometimes I wonder if the ostriches might know something we don’t.
Jack_SThe Homeland Security Dept. (that name gives me a chill) should start using old clips of Peter Lorre as he appeared in "Casablanca" for their video spokesman. "Papers please." in a soft German accent.
Jack, I realize that you posted this tongue-in-cheek...but that statement does a disservice to all of us who are actively involved in keeping our nation safe.
No one wants a Soviet- or Nazi-style police state here, but none of us wants another 9/11 either.
blownout cylinderAnd we do not live in that dangerous a world that we need to be paranoid of even our neighbours--much like they are in the middle east---which is far far worse than here---
Barry, I would have had no argument at all with what you just posted...were it not for 9/11, which as I stated, I never wish to see again in my lifetime in this country.
Murray zardoz"Normal"? Compared to what? Wake up, dude! What's sad is that a world-view like Murray's (no offense intended) seems to indeed be the new "normal". Having lived in a comfortable, complacent environment has dulled the perspective of so many people. They cannot seem to understand the broader implications of events that are, as we speak, creating the future in which we all must live (or die). Zardoz, I deal with these threats every single day in my line of work. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that we now live in a deadly dangerous world. To not accept that fact is to my way of thinking like pretending to be an ostrich with your head in the sand.
zardoz"Normal"? Compared to what? Wake up, dude! What's sad is that a world-view like Murray's (no offense intended) seems to indeed be the new "normal". Having lived in a comfortable, complacent environment has dulled the perspective of so many people. They cannot seem to understand the broader implications of events that are, as we speak, creating the future in which we all must live (or die).
What's sad is that a world-view like Murray's (no offense intended) seems to indeed be the new "normal". Having lived in a comfortable, complacent environment has dulled the perspective of so many people. They cannot seem to understand the broader implications of events that are, as we speak, creating the future in which we all must live (or die).
Zardoz, I deal with these threats every single day in my line of work. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that we now live in a deadly dangerous world. To not accept that fact is to my way of thinking like pretending to be an ostrich with your head in the sand.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
The Homeland Security Dept. (that name gives me a chill) should start using old clips of Peter Lorre as he appeared in "Casablanca" for their video spokesman. "Papers please." in a soft German accent.
Jack
zugmann If we lined up all the idiots in the world, then there'd be no one left to use the shotgun.
If we lined up all the idiots in the world, then there'd be no one left to use the shotgun.
At least we'd have Eleanor Roosevelt.
Zuggman said, "Now we could take steps to solve that..."
-Yes, those are called shotguns. Get the idiots lined up, whip 'em out...good ole firing squad elimination of the idiots.
As for the guy above me, even as good as these trains forums are, they're not going to have sufficient increased attackability from these, nor would they even need a forum to do so. Disgruntled (or extremely gruntled?) employees have managed to do these things in the past, even without forums to help them do it. Why can't terrorists? If they terrorists are smart, they'd cite the use of forums after launching such an attack, even though the forums likely hadn't helped them much, if any, just to ensure that that freedom is also lost. While the railroaders who use such forums would probably doubt the legitimacy of those claims, they'd never be heard over the whining of the current population that takes away freedoms as it is, and you'd see something close to the elimination of them entirely (yeah, they'll find a way to do it).
People are willing to let their freedoms erode away because they feel the measures being done or proposed won't ever affect them. For example, they don't think they'll ever be asked for their ID while just walking down the street.
Then many of those same people will scream the loudest when it does happen to them.
That last sentence isn't directed personally at anyone on this forum. I'm also convinced that the flip side is true. That many of those that oppose the measures will also scream the loudest that the Government should've done more to prevent the next 9-ll type event when it occurs. I hope it never occurs, but no matter what is done in the name of security a determined group(s) will eventually succeed.
As to railroad content, I can kind of understand the more strictness for boarding an air plane. Outside of being on the aircraft there is a limited window for attacking it. A train however can be targeted or attacked at almost anytime. You wouldn't need to be a passenger or even buy a ticket to cause mayhem. Trains have been derailed in the past (attributed to disgruntled ex-employees) because track was tempered with.
Let's just hope that should a successful terrorist attack against a railroad target occur, it doesn't develope that the terrorists learned basic railroad operations, track and signalling from reading the Trains Forums.
Jeff
MurrayPhoebe VetI'm out of here. Phoebe...do you need a hug?
Phoebe VetI'm out of here.
Phoebe...do you need a hug?
I'm sure Mrs Roosevelt could give him a hug.
You are clearly being overly emotional, and are failing to take a balanced and objective view to our conversation.
But if you chose to run away, that is your choice.
Phoebe Vet That said, This has evolved away from the original post of excessive security at the train station, so I'm out of here.
That said, This has evolved away from the original post of excessive security at the train station, so I'm out of here.
Deja Vu all over again!
Heck, we;ve always been under surveillance, it's that it is now more transparent (and there is some cool technology out there now). Then a lot of this ID and other 'security protocols" are not as much for safety, but for liability. I guess freedom means the freedom to sue someone for 15 gajillion dollars because you did something stupid and idiotic and are too prideful to admit you were a moron for 5 seconds (or are too lazy to get a real job like a lot of people). Now we could take steps to solve that, but that would mean limiting freedoms even more. A catch-22.
It is YOU who is paranoid. You people who believe that we must give up our freedom in order to be safe have handed victory to the terrorists. The object of terrorism is to make people like you live in constant fear.
I was a police officer in NY for 22 years, and my brother worked in an office 3 blocks from the World Trade Center. Fortunately he was in another city that day.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I also yearn for the kinder gentler days when we did not live under the threats of having bombs go off or having planes fly into our skyscrapers. Those days unfortunately are gone forever!
Don't miscontrue the efforts of our government to keep our nation safe. Instead, appreciate the efforts of people like myself who work day and night to keep you, your family and friends safe. I don't consider that to be either intrusive or an infringement of your personal freedom.
The bottom line is we don't want another 9/11 to ever happen again. I don't ever want to go through that again in my lifetime.
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