Perhaps the operative concepts that lead to all the aforementioned problems are GREED and SHORT-SIGHTEDNESS.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Seems strange years back I couldn't get near a job or promotion because some lump managed to get in ahead of me (age discrimination) so I was always least paid, no seniority, no chance for promotion, ended up doing most of the work, until ALL of the aging staff died or retired (many many years later) now things have actually caught up to present day, just where were all these apprentices being taught, all the past workers cared about was their pension and seeing how little work they could do. A whole generation never entered the work force until that generation moved on.
Railway Man There are many challenges that are imagined. But the largest is real, and it's the loss of skilled and experienced employees to retirement in the next few years, and a very thin pipeline of new employees behind them. RWM
There are many challenges that are imagined. But the largest is real, and it's the loss of skilled and experienced employees to retirement in the next few years, and a very thin pipeline of new employees behind them.
RWM
Regrettably the best and the brightest aren't drawn into politics. Top performers want to compete in an arena where results are clear, unequivocal, and result in some kind of benefit, monetary or otherwise. In politics you have the exact opposite..results are often unclear..efforts are often unrewarded and underappreciated...and game players are often the ones who get ahead..That's not always true..there are some great people in politics..but not as many as needed.
Perhaps we should consider the United States Congress!!
Individually there are many bright people serving, probably mine and yours. But collectively they are a disaster with all of the 'buying' votes with earmarks and tradeoffs. And the 'whats good for our party' motivation. The damage they do cannot easily be undone. All new members with the finest intentions find they must play along to get along. And far too many are lawyers or people with no experience in the private sector.
I have come to the conclusion that they could not organize a turtle race with only one entrant. Many, like me are independents and more are becoming so by increasing numbers.
Given the state of the economy today and the outlook for the next five years, I'm surprised that a shortage of qualified people is viewed as the biggest challenge. I don't doubt it...you guys are more qualified and closer to the action than I am... but..I wouldn't have guessed labor shortage.
On a postive note (?)...there are now an awful lot of good qualified underemployed people out there.. I just got back from South Carolina, and got to talking to one the cleaners in the hotel I was staying in. The lady I spoke to says she's got degrees in engineering and physics but because she doesn't have American experience she's cleaning toilets. I see it my industry too...more truck drivers and dispatchers are computer literate and often have advanced training in something...the proverbial dummy HS dropout is becoming extinct.
There may come a temporary shortage..but there are alot of intelligent people out there who will do your job and mine, and will take half the time to learn it.
oltmanndRailway Man There are many challenges that are imagined. But the largest is real, and it's the loss of skilled and experienced employees to retirement in the next few years, and a very thin pipeline of new employees behind them. RWM That is a huge issue around here, and I see some good things happening and some not so good. There are really two issues. One is how many are in the pipeline and the other is what is in the pipeline. The good news is that they have been hiring like mad to take advantage of what little time remains for the "50 somethings" so that some of the institutional knowledge can be transferred. Also good is that they have resisted the temptation to lay off any of the new hires in this down year. The new hires get at pretty good orientation (they call it a training program - it lasts 18 months - but it is really just an orientation). HR's recruiting team has been hiring some really bright people, but they have not kept an eye open for those with an "unhealthy" interest in railroading. This is unfortunate, in my view, the ones that do have an interest tend to stumble up the learning curve at a faster rate. [snip] The mass exodus of the 50-somethings begins in earnest this year - the future will be interesting....
That is a huge issue around here, and I see some good things happening and some not so good. There are really two issues. One is how many are in the pipeline and the other is what is in the pipeline. The good news is that they have been hiring like mad to take advantage of what little time remains for the "50 somethings" so that some of the institutional knowledge can be transferred. Also good is that they have resisted the temptation to lay off any of the new hires in this down year. The new hires get at pretty good orientation (they call it a training program - it lasts 18 months - but it is really just an orientation). HR's recruiting team has been hiring some really bright people, but they have not kept an eye open for those with an "unhealthy" interest in railroading. This is unfortunate, in my view, the ones that do have an interest tend to stumble up the learning curve at a faster rate. [snip] The mass exodus of the 50-somethings begins in earnest this year - the future will be interesting....
Which is probably a good portion of the reason why Norfolk Southern gave a $100,000 grant to Penn State's Altoona Campus in August of this year to establish/ support a Railroad and Transit ngineering Degree program there. See - http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2009/penn-state.html
- PDN.
I am beginning to conclude that the reinvention of the wheel is at hand! And for several good and not so good reasons.
The not so good reasons lay in two places concerning labor: 1) loss of qualified and experienced managers and workers due to retirements or layoffs. This is a real threat and needs to be addressed immediately. I've hearn rumors of companies losing their quality and competitive edge because of loss of this echelon and quantity of talent. Often there are hirebacks in the form of consulting or contract work on the management level. 2). lack of avaiablity of new labor and inability of new hires to do quality and quantity of work. This is something current managements have to deal with to make it to tomorrow. 3) Therefore both problems here could lead to neophytes coming in and "playing" train.
The other, the good reasons, for there being a reinvention of the wheel is that planners and managers (both private and public) of all forms of transportation are realizing they have a brotherhood of concerns and needs which has to lead to a rethinking of segeragated forms of transportation. Over the next five to fifty years there will be more intergration and universal technologies to form an almost seamless carriage of people and goods from mode to mode, coast to coast (not endorsment of long distance passenger trains) for efficiency of fuel and equipment as well as for environmental concerns.
Now I don't think there is anybody who believes the whole of the current system will be thrown away, there will be no throwning the baby out with the bathwater. But there will be new ways of using, organizing, and integrating our transportation systems so much so that it might not look like the same groups of modes we see today. Yes, its like reinventing the wheel building from a base that has evolved over the last 200 or so years. My fear is that this will be done by all new blood who knows nothing about the collective values of the modes. My hope is that we can keep enough old blood pumping through the debates to build rather than tear apart. Maybe I'm using the "reinvention of the wheel" theory too loosley here. But I do believe there has to be and will be major changes in our thinking, our technologies,and our philosophies to effect a transportation system and not seperate modes, for the future.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Railway Man My group is going to lose 75% of its 50-somethings within the next 24 months. The oldest, wisest person in the next cohort is 34. RWM
My group is going to lose 75% of its 50-somethings within the next 24 months. The oldest, wisest person in the next cohort is 34.
Dan
Oltmann and RWM:Bring me up to speed.
Why are the "50 somethings" leaving? Is there a pension provision incentivizing their departures?
I am not sure if retirement is a prudent financial decision at this point in economic history, unless there are nice golden guarantees out there.
The earlier discussion regarding comparing the PRR and SP 70 years ago to the second tier railroads is brilliant. Our consumption patterns have changed dramatically the past five years. Frugality is now a preferred and required lifestyle, at least for now. "Detroit" and it's based automotive industry has changed dramatically. Infrastructure which was near capacity such as the ex Wabash line seems to have lost considerable traffic and now has excess capacity. Temporary or permanently? Where do the railroads invest their capital going forward? New government requirements will demand significantly more of that capital it appears.
This is only a hunch, as I am an outsider, but when contracts terminate and are being renegotiated, downward pricing pressure could begin to creep in (certain markets such as coal or intermodal).
ed
henry6 gabe What is the challenge working for a lumber yard? Do you get board? Gabe I planely saw you milling around here and barking up the wrong tree, so cut it out![
gabe What is the challenge working for a lumber yard? Do you get board? Gabe
What is the challenge working for a lumber yard? Do you get board?
Gabe
I planely saw you milling around here and barking up the wrong tree, so cut it out![
My mother would nail dad over his puns----these ones sound kinda rough grade--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
oltmanndHR's recruiting team has been hiring some really bright people, but they have not kept an eye open for those with an "unhealthy" interest in railroading. This is unfortunate, in my view, the ones that do have an interest tend to stumble up the learning curve at a faster rate. The other problem is what they do with the trainees after the orientation ends. Rather than just try to attach them to some field supervisors who would make good mentors and could use a hand, they have have been plopping quite a few into temporary office staff jobs. Not the best OJT... The mass exodus of the 50-somethings begins in earnest this year - the future will be interesting....
What you are referring to is a management style that is only recently coming to the fore--"coaching/mentoring". This was one of the pet peeves that my occupation--that being healthcare--had for a long while--the lack of same. If you are going to get employees up to speed then you really need people to BE there for the newby. Just dumping them on to a job site and expecting excellent work out of them right from the get go is not going to happen. I'm wondering about many of the 50 somethings right now and how they got into the jobs--there seemed to be those mentoring types then--in one shape or another as well. Pairing newbies with more 'seasoned' employees worked to a certain extent---maybe they'll have to do more of that.
Another thing is that we've gotten incredibly dumb with our infrastructure---we built them--and then ignored them thinking that one didn't need to work on them over time. Deferral of maintainence became the name of the game---saving the $$$ bill became more important than doing the job of keeping the infrastructure together. So now we're seeing bridges crumbling and roads crumbling and sewers and etc etc---falling on their rears---
Sometimes one needs to think outside the wallet-----
Sorry but if 120K became the Standard here is what 90% of the drivers that could safely haul it would do nationwide to their license and eat it. Why we have enough of a hard time with 80K dealing with IDIOTS in cars that cut us off now. Let alone with another 20 tons in the wagon. Also the roadways are NOT DESIGNED FOR IT THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR 80K the Minneaplois 35W bridge ring a bell on Infastructure. The Highway Trust fund is BROKE and with trucks weighs at 120K that scene would be common place. The last major infastructure building was in the 50-60's for the Interstates Nothing NEW SINCE THEN. Some of the Major Bridges in the Bay Area are so Bad they can not risk any OVERSIZE LOADS the Bay Bridge is one. The Tappenzee a major Artery in NYC is overdue to be replaced and getting so worn out that pieces of Steel are falling OFF IT.
See the IDIOTS IN CONGRESS INSTEAD DOING THE HIGHWAYS THE RIGHT WAY AKA THE CONTRACTOR IS REQUIRED TO WARRENTY THE WORK. Nope cheapest bid gets the work so who cares that the roadways crumble the country has an unlimted Checkbook right.
oltmanndRailway ManThere are many challenges that are imagined. But the largest is real, and it's the loss of skilled and experienced employees to retirement in the next few years, and a very thin pipeline of new employees behind them. RWM
Railway ManThere are many challenges that are imagined. But the largest is real, and it's the loss of skilled and experienced employees to retirement in the next few years, and a very thin pipeline of new employees behind them. RWM
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The newest Challenge to face the RRs will be the substantial weight increases proposed for trucks on the Interstate system. It is even being looked at for the first time favorably in California. The main reason is the new standards being introduced for truck diesels and the economy being the way it is the trucking companies are looking for trade offs with trucks grossing 120,000 thats a fifty percent increase over whats allowed now, That will certainly keep a lot of workers repairing and resurfacing the Interstates. The trucking companies are complaining that with the economy the way it is they either need a much longer period to implement the new emissions standards or the fifty percent increase in gross weights so they can use fewer trucks to meet the standards. This could cost the RRs a substantial amount of pig traffic and domestic container traffic if it comes to be. Especially with the RRs building all of the new loading facilities for pigs and containers.
Al - in - Stockton
There will always be the challenge of attracting, leading and retaining good people. Give me a buff with a head for business any day of the week. I foresee two more specific challenges. There is a big, developing demand for organizations that know how to run passengers trains financed by local governments. If were not careful the French will be running a lot more than VRE. Perhaps the BNSF learned enough from their South American experiences to generate some cash. We are in the middle of a once every 80 year rummage sale in our economy. The railroads with a future will be able to discern which of their customers will grow and which will die. Just think about the PRR and Espee in 1929 and 2009 in contrast to the then second tier N&W, SOU and Hill Lines. Ouch!
Challenges:
1. Finding new workers on all levels who can not only get up to speed, but adapt to the many changes.
2. Retention - promotions from within.
3. Adaptation to changes in traffic bases and new technologies.
4. Possible rethinking of the entire transportation business, including ownership of the routes.
RWM and Mudchicken hit it spot on...the institution knowledge, both in management and in the T&E departments is depleted, and replacements are not lined up to replace them.
As Sam pointed out, hands training in both is quite slim.
Management no longer comes up through the ranks, so they are clueless to how the actual T&E job works, and with the 30/60 retirement program, "old heads " are bailing out as soon as they can.
The second issue I see would be the fact that locomotive builders have pretty much reached the end of the envelope...bigger in not necessarily better.
They are having to re think and re engineer the idea of motive power, and with the intervention of the government and tier 3 emission requirements, they are in between a rock and a hard place satisfying both the carriers needs and the governments law.
Lots of new ideas out there, lots of prototypes, but....
23 17 46 11
blownout cylinder Just how thin is that pipeline? In some cases pretty darn thin now-- I'm thinking that a lack of apprenticeships is one and the emphasis placed on theory in most colleges--as opposed to more "hands on" application of theory--may be some of the causes of that. Especially as cash strapped schools started to get out of the 'hands on' side to the detriment of many students and concentrate on the 'cheaper' theoretical side of education. Another could be simple demographics as well---baby boom generation had more impact in a lot of ways--including numerical---the boom shadow and after are going to have some awfully big shoes to fill.
Just how thin is that pipeline? In some cases pretty darn thin now--
I'm thinking that a lack of apprenticeships is one and the emphasis placed on theory in most colleges--as opposed to more "hands on" application of theory--may be some of the causes of that. Especially as cash strapped schools started to get out of the 'hands on' side to the detriment of many students and concentrate on the 'cheaper' theoretical side of education.
Another could be simple demographics as well---baby boom generation had more impact in a lot of ways--including numerical---the boom shadow and after are going to have some awfully big shoes to fill.
RWM:
With his usual clarity has identified possibly the single most problematic issue in the railroading business, moat likely, every business that relies on skillsets learned with much practice over years of sweat, and not a little blood.
Barry, as well has homed in on the process of putting skilled employees into the system. You can teach individuals to do almost anything in a book and classroom, as well as what to expect in the area of daily job function.
Ed B. and Nick, as well as some others posting here have pointed out. It is the day to day drudge of practice, and accomplishing the actual nuts and bolts functioning of the work that makes the job flow in a timely and safe manner. Nothing drives home the lessons learned like tring to correct a misssed process of classification or trying to spot and pull in a place where traffic and position is against you.
Each of the pro's here point out that it is the experiences of working with guys who KNOW you screwed up and will leave you stewing in your own juices- to drive that lesson home. THey knew and after the fact the newbie now also knows, and won't make that mistake again.
Railroad jobs are CRAFT jobs preformed by Craftsdmen who have learned their true craft, while forged in the schools of hard knocks, techniques and understanding. It is apprentiship with a skilled mentor that brings a craftsman to a respectable skill level. Too many corporations practice the " Pat 'em on the a**, Kiss 'em on the mouth, and Throw 'em to the wolves," the OJT method of training a new hire. It neither fosters confidence, skills or a desire to hang around to see an outcome.
Railroading is a dangersous, difficult, and taxing on an employees ability to work safe by not taking what might be an obvious short cut. The whole process is exacerbated by what seems to be a concentrated mindset that the employee must prove their loyalty by standing up to what could be considered to almost be a level of "hazing". There are probably some steps that could be taken by a company to make an employee's life ( not to mention family life, as well) a little more palletable and soften the "them against us", mentality that seems to exist in the business and railroad worlds.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
The double barrel challenge of the brain drain of retirement coupled with upsurge of traffic when the recovery hits full stride and turns back into an economy hitting on all cylinders in all segments of the economy.
The knowledge base of the mistakes of the past when presented with these challenges is retiring and walking out the door. The mistakes of the past will be repeated by those who don't know about them.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy Siding Railway Man There are many challenges that are imagined. But the largest is real, and it's the loss of skilled and experienced employees to retirement in the next few years, and a very thin pipeline of new employees behind them. RWM You have just described my industry to a T. Who would want to work for a lumberyard?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
As in any business, there will certainly be challenges. However, I feel there will be some upside too. Railroads are ahead of the curve on the "green" aspect. Carriers are using fuel efficiency and and lesser emissions to bolster their advertising. We are also seeing a spike in ridership, and a greater interest in regional passenger links to the major lines of Amtrak. Container business is constant and as much as some would like to see it dissappear, coal is going to stay in the picture. Auto shipments will certainly rebound as well as lumber as the recession passes. In my humble opinion, there are threats to the carriers, but there are also avenues for growth.
The question is so broad and deep with so many holes to fill in and fall into.
Challange: global warming. What is it going to do to energy markets and resources. How will it it effect the use of energy in railroading?
Challange: global economy. Where is the manufacturing going to be? where is the consumer going to be? How big a ditch can you gouge in the American Contenents to create a short cut between China and Europe or can you really do that to the earth? What can the US and its industries do to keep the ditch from happening by providing a means of moving boatloads of stuff from shore to shore?
Challange: infrastructure. How much, where, for and by whom?
Challange: passengers. Let's not talk Amtrak but about the passenger: who is he, what does he want and what does he need. Then who is gonna do what?. And remember the passenger is all of us
Challange: Labor. I don't think it is going to be as much a problem as some think. In fact I think rail will be popular enough that there will be an intrest in many to get on board. And with new technologies emerging, the need for old time knuckle bangers will be nil. Whole new worlds will be opening up.
Challange: trains and railroads. Time to stop thinking 19th Century Choo Choo's and Robber Barons and start thinking 21st Century technology and who will be the involved parties. Time for new concepts, new politics, new partnerships.
A mere nutshell.
gabe Railway Man There are many challenges that are imagined. But the largest is real, and it's the loss of skilled and experienced employees to retirement in the next few years, and a very thin pipeline of new employees behind them. RWM Chalk this up to another unfortunate peice of information that, had I known fifteen years ago, I would probably have a much more satisfying life . . . . Gabe
Chalk this up to another unfortunate peice of information that, had I known fifteen years ago, I would probably have a much more satisfying life . . . .
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