bubbajustin Paul, or to any one else who may know the answer. So I guess that unless there is a short in the track circiut, or a break in the actual physcal rail itself, the dispatcher doesn't know about any problems?
Paul, or to any one else who may know the answer.
So I guess that unless there is a short in the track circiut, or a break in the actual physcal rail itself, the dispatcher doesn't know about any problems?
Correct.
An "expensive model collector"
mudchicken - Are you writing a comedy skit for the next surveyor's convention [Q]
Points well taken. Avoiding most of that chaos is precisely why, I think, that blue streak 1 recommended the database be prepared and distributed by the railroad, for downloading [preferably - copying only if unavoidable], with the locals 'touching' the data as little as possible to avoid corrupting it.
Even though you prefer the DOT X-ing number for understandable reasons, note that of your 3 examples, 1/3 of them had a bad number - the 2nd one, for the private crossing. Although that's the first time I've heard of that happening, it does leave us with the question of - 'Now what do we do, in the event of an emergency there [Q]' Also, how do we handle an event that's some distance from a crossing - like a culvert or fire a mile away [Q] [I'll leave out the question about what to do if the tag is missing, has been vandalized, or is under the wreckage of the car that's come to rest on top of the crossing signal that you're now trying to report, etc.]
As far as the street name confusion goes, we got rid of almost all of that - along with inconsistent and duplicate address numbers, etc. - around here about 15 years ago when we went on to a county-wide 9-1-1 system. I thought that was pretty much nationwide by now [Q] We also have an odd system of each road or street usually having a local name that is pretty much universally used, even though if you dig deep enough you'll find that they all have either a State Route ['SR'] or Township Road ['TR'] number associated with them, along with a handful of County Roads ['CR']. My relatives and friends from out west - like California - tell me that this duplicate name / number system drives them nuts . . .
- Paul North.
n012944 bubbajustin Paul, or to any one else who may know the answer. So I guess that unless there is a short in the track circiut, or a break in the actual physcal rail itself, the dispatcher doesn't know about any problems? Correct.
The only way the dispatcher finds out what the track circuit represents is for the appropriate maintenance personnel to find the problem and report it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Paul_D_North_Jr Interstate highways and turnpikes, where there's not an address every couple hundred feet, and intersections are not a mile or two apart, but 5 to 10 miles ? I know, use the mile markers - but how well are those maintained ? What about the middle of the night ?
Interstate highways and turnpikes, where there's not an address every couple hundred feet, and intersections are not a mile or two apart, but 5 to 10 miles ? I know, use the mile markers - but how well are those maintained ? What about the middle of the night ?
A couple of counties in Iowa have taken it upon themselves to rectify that situation by installing mile marker signs in the median EVERY TENTH OF A MILE... no matter where you're at, you should be able to see at least two or three of them!
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
One thing I had experience with is the AAR/DOT Grade Crossing Inventory in preparing a regional assessment for improverment funding priorities for Lake, Porter, and La Porte County in Indiana.
The use of the crossing number to report a location is pretty solid and has enough numbers as it is without trying to call in GPS coordinates. I did find two crossings out of 1,600 not in the inventory that I reported to the pertinent railroad.
As has been stated by those with more experience in the industry, this is part of an established procedure that the railroads have in place. This is how they want the information and how they are set up to handle it. Usually it works better than in this case.
Obviously, crossing Identification numbers have the limitation of being cumbersome or impractical between crossings if you need to drive to the next crossing to establish an approximate location, and particularly where tracks are away from a public road. Then the railroad is pretty much on its own.
If a trestle is flooded over, you can't see the milepost number on the abutment anyway. Do railroads consistently mark culverts, trestles, and bridges with a milepost visible to a nearby road?
As I recall, multiple (parallel) railroad crossings were identified in the inventory; so the question of which railroad, eg. UP or CN, can be sorted out.
As for split jurisdictions, at least one should be listed on the inventory if not both. Community emergency response, inter-agency cooperation agreements, and responder training need to address the jurisdictional "That's not my problem" syndrome.
Harvey: Nice that you reported those two missing crossings to the railroad. Did you attempt to talk to the people actually charged with maintaining the record? (Hint: no longer the railroad, hasn't been for a very long time)....Crossings that were found out of place were Public, Private or PVT/company use.....or possibly the industry's? (If it crosses or goes over an operating railroad, it's supposed to be in the inventory, NO exceptions.....Industry tracks owned by the industry with crossings are the industry's responsibility initially to assign numbers to)
RWM: amen!
PDN - The DOT forms print out in decimal degrees....Wanna watch the math impaired general public convert that to Degees-Minutes-Seconds or see if they even capiche?....for the most part, GIS data around any railroad (unless the railroad did the mapping and data entry like UP in their PMV's) is questionable to worthless. It's just a local yokel techno-geek guessing.
Funny how high water detectors never appeared here in the overall discussion (float plungers with a solenoid.....now back to the regularly scheduled hearsay and hyperbole)
Brian H: In Texas, they often do not milepost anything below an Interstate Highway
Bridge Numbering is a function of the standard plans of that individual railroad (Santa Fe did not number the dump planks and backwalls of its larger bridges....you had to look for a brass tag nailed to the tie (If some lowlife looking for date nails hadn't pulled it or the curve tags...or got wiped out by a tie gang)
Anyone using FRA's GIS can start to see gaping holes in the system without looking very hard. Compound this with local State DOT's hiring local state consultants to do inventories within that state using people that know nothing about railroads and you have the beginning of a large compound clusterfluff (already happening).....Then have these GIS bimbo's go to techical profession conventions and spout what wonderful and amazing things they are doing (never mind that in AREMA and other places, there are people out in the hall lying on the flloor in hysterics that soon will be in tears when they get stuck cleaning up the mess on their individual railroads)
FRA has gotten the railroads (Class 1's and Regionals) to post panic numbers and DOT numbers on different sizes of signs (BNSF's is huge compared to most others)...shortlines are not there yet.
Again my post was edited its hard to tell someone what is going on or what to do when someone changes the wording to mean something totally differant. and since they think they haft to change what i say then this discussion is useless. Zardoz i dont care who thinks what my rule book says that i dont stop and i wont stop .
wabash1 Again my post was edited its hard to tell someone what is going on or what to do when someone changes the wording to mean something totally differant. and since they think they haft to change what i say then this discussion is useless. Zardoz i dont care who thinks what my rule book says that i dont stop and i wont stop .
So, Wabash, I've seen a problem, and I'm on the phone with the NS emergency number when you come into view. How do I go about warning you that you're about to encounter a problem that could be avoided if you stopped before you got to it?
Will you stop if I wave the red flag (or lantern) I carry with my grip (I'm a conductor for a scenic railroad)? A fusee? How about if I wave both arms wildly in a double "wash out?" Throw my safety vest on the tracks?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACD With the advent of placing the AAR crossing designation at road crossings, the amount of time it takes to define where HERE is has been significantly decreased, to the extent that the person(s) communicating with the railroad provide the correct number.
With the advent of placing the AAR crossing designation at road crossings, the amount of time it takes to define where HERE is has been significantly decreased, to the extent that the person(s) communicating with the railroad provide the correct number.
Johnny
Alright, all you non-railfans out there...by a show of hands....how many of you know that each grade crossing is numbered, has the milepost listed and the railroad name as well as a phone number to contact in case of emergency?
Now all of you, raise your hands, if you can read the placque posted on the grade crossing post while sitting in your car 10 or more feet away while sitting in your car?
How many of you knew where to look in the first place? How many of you are in law enforcement and could raise your hand to the questions above?
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
tree68 wabash1 Again my post was edited its hard to tell someone what is going on or what to do when someone changes the wording to mean something totally differant. and since they think they haft to change what i say then this discussion is useless. Zardoz i dont care who thinks what my rule book says that i dont stop and i wont stop . So, Wabash, I've seen a problem, and I'm on the phone with the NS emergency number when you come into view. How do I go about warning you that you're about to encounter a problem that could be avoided if you stopped before you got to it? Will you stop if I wave the red flag (or lantern) I carry with my grip (I'm a conductor for a scenic railroad)? A fusee? How about if I wave both arms wildly in a double "wash out?" Throw my safety vest on the tracks?
When I was in brakeman's school we were out in the field one day. One of the instuctors went across three or four tracks, lit a fusee and placed it on the ground and walked away from it. The instructor with the group asked if we were on the track closest to us and saw the fusee a couple of tracks over if we should stop. The answer was no because it was beyond the first rail of the adjacent track.
He started talking about other things. A few minutes later the instructor, still a few tracks over, lit another fusee and held it, not making any signalling movement. It was asked again if we should stop for it. The answer this time was yes. The difference? The first fusee was unattended, the second was being attended by someone. It was explained that in the second situation, it could be someone who wasn't a railroader who didn't know the proper signal.
So Tree, if you lit a fusee and gave a stop signal, I'ld bet Wabash would stop, consistant with good train handling of course.
Jeff
I'll post this link to make a point.
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/06/five-dead-in-crash-on-i-65-in-indiana.html
I guess if the entire family is incinerated there may be no one left to file a legal action.
We can argue the best methods for identifying a crossing or if a train will stop for a fussee, but let's not loose track of the fact that transportation has inherint dangers that can not be eliminated.
We've recently seen DC Metro kill 7 or 9 people, depending on which story you read. We've also seen Air France crash into the Atlantic at a cost of over 200 lives. CN was moving over one million gallons of highly flamable liquid on a journey half way across the country when some rain made things go terribly wrong. And now this truck wreck in Indiana destroys an entire family.
Any time people or things get set in motion there is a potential for disaster. That can't be changed. Safety can be improved but it can never be made perfect.
We can put gadgets in the ground to detect track movement, we can provide an ID number for every grade crossing, we can build the most sophisticaed aircraft in the world - but we can't make transportation without its inherint risks.
EDIT: It isn't really needed, but here's one more very current example.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529221,00.html?test=latestnews
Tree you know the rules and to answer you yes. if you are waving franticly I will stop as soon as possible and if you have that lantern or the flag or the fusee you know i will stop but if you light it drop it and leave i wont stop. the rule is I must slow to restricted speed and then travel at restricted speed for 1 mile. Not stop and proceed slow to. so yes lighting a fusee and dropping it will help but in most cases unless its a straight line of sight and plenty of lead time if you try to stop a train by fusee or flag or lantern they might get stopped but not before getting by you. the fusee and flagging rules are the most mis-understood rules and because its a fusee they think you should stop on a dime. in the day yes if you got by a fusee you was fired, but you had plenty of warning before you reached it that you needed to stop. so the guy with the 1950s rule on flagging trying to make a point first off flagging rules dont exsist today , and 2nd dont apply to this case anyways.
I am going off of my OTR driving experiance here. But here was an experiance at one of my companies when a driver had a heart attack. I was headed west on I-10 at the 10 milemarker in TX. My Qualcom went off at told me to meet truck 9902 at the TA at exit 37 however I was to wait until truck 9964 met me there to grab my load for CA befoer I headed East with the other trucks load. 9964 was bouncing empty out of Phoenix towards us to make all th swaps needed. All the coms needed happened within 10 mins of the drivers wife and team mate calling the company on a Saturday night when NO ONE was in the Dispatch office to make the switches. Now with the CN dispatch desk being manned 24/7 I think 21 mins was more than enough time to stop traffic along that line until the MOW crew could look at the trackage.
BTW the other driver did live.
edbenton I am going off of my OTR driving experiance here. But here was an experiance at one of my companies when a driver had a heart attack. I was headed west on I-10 at the 10 milemarker in TX. My Qualcom went off at told me to meet truck 9902 at the TA at exit 37 however I was to wait until truck 9964 met me there to grab my load for CA befoer I headed East with the other trucks load. 9964 was bouncing empty out of Phoenix towards us to make all th swaps needed. All the coms needed happened within 10 mins of the drivers wife and team mate calling the company on a Saturday night when NO ONE was in the Dispatch office to make the switches. Now with the CN dispatch desk being manned 24/7 I think 21 mins was more than enough time to stop traffic along that line until the MOW crew could look at the trackage. BTW the other driver did live.
Again did they have 21 minutes? Was the first call to the UP done withing the timeframe? How much time was lost there? Lots of assumptions going on, however we will know soon enough when the dispatcher was notified, since all calls to the ds are recorded.
henry6You cannot expect too much from the public in general...it would be exceptional for one to make a phone call unless the problem involved him directly and immediately. The railroad has not existed in so many lives since passenger trains stopped running and there was no more Railway Express or L.C.L freight, and the depot closed, and the local factory converted to truck or left town, too. No, the public cannot be counted on. 911, however, must be trained! They have to know what railroads run through thier juristiction: where the crossings are, the layout of each, railroad as well as geographical location, railroad name for it as well as the local name or number and the vernacular name; have and know phone numbers for railroad emergencies be it police, dispatchers, track foreman, or the road's president, and know how each railroad operates and want to have emergencies handled; they have to know what questions to ask the caller and/or the police unit calling in to ascertain how he has to react and what he has to do.. As was mentioned earlier, many fire departments are trained to handle hazmat and other railroad situations, so should the police and 911 operators. But railroads have to be forthcoming with information about thier desired procedures and the proper phone numbers to be called for any given situtation, including a contact number of last resort. It puts a lot on a 911 operator, maybe, but we have set up this system of handleing emergencies, et al, so we must make it work for us the best ways possible.
You cannot expect too much from the public in general...it would be exceptional for one to make a phone call unless the problem involved him directly and immediately. The railroad has not existed in so many lives since passenger trains stopped running and there was no more Railway Express or L.C.L freight, and the depot closed, and the local factory converted to truck or left town, too. No, the public cannot be counted on. 911, however, must be trained! They have to know what railroads run through thier juristiction: where the crossings are, the layout of each, railroad as well as geographical location, railroad name for it as well as the local name or number and the vernacular name; have and know phone numbers for railroad emergencies be it police, dispatchers, track foreman, or the road's president, and know how each railroad operates and want to have emergencies handled; they have to know what questions to ask the caller and/or the police unit calling in to ascertain how he has to react and what he has to do.. As was mentioned earlier, many fire departments are trained to handle hazmat and other railroad situations, so should the police and 911 operators. But railroads have to be forthcoming with information about thier desired procedures and the proper phone numbers to be called for any given situtation, including a contact number of last resort. It puts a lot on a 911 operator, maybe, but we have set up this system of handleing emergencies, et al, so we must make it work for us the best ways possible.
Most 9-1-1 Operators have some training in haz-mat, most of it concerning how to use the orange book that is in every dispatch center.
I worked in a town that had a major railroad yard, and several other lines running through it. Every map, and I mean EVERY map that we were ever given by the railroads, or people who did the surveying, or what have you always listed the wrong roads and having ownership of the tracks. In fact, one map we had showed Clyde Yard as belonging to the CB&Q, and the map was one year old at the time. We had files of out of date numbers for the IC, the BNSF and a couple other lines at the extreme east end of town. Every call to the railroads resulted in little or no action to get us updated numbers. Fortunately for us, the BNSFpolice were equipped with radios that had our radio frequency, and we could contact the the BNSF police supervisor over the air if necessary. Sometimes it took a few seconds for them to respond, but they were reachable.
I can't tell how how frustrated I have been with the railroads in the past, when we have needed to contact someone for an emergency, and either got the run-around, or no answer/no results from my inquiry. During a storm, 9-1-1 centers can be overwhelmed with calls, everything from "wires down" to "when is it going to stop raining" I kid you not. If there was a call to the 9-1-1 center about a washout, the chances are the dispatcher isn't going to know what a "washout" is and how serious it can be. When you are handling 100 phone calls an hour during a storm, things get hectic fast. I can recall several instances where a railroad needed to be contacted, and it took hours for them to get back to us....
The communication needs to be improved at some level. I am not sure which, but 21 minutes could have been enough, or maybe not. We won't know until the investigation is done. I have dealt with RR cops on the phone, and have gotten everything from prompt service to indifference.....
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