Question for RR folks:Would a neighboring road, in this case UP to CN, contact the other road if they receive calls such as washed out track in situations like this?
Yes and no. If a track supervisor was called out and found nothing, then yes, he would notify the DS to get the other road involved. This has happened a number of times in Western Iowa, and of course in Iowa Falls with crossing protection.
A washout situation is considered an emergency and should be handled as such.
Desertdog, I do agree with you...police should have the same level of knowledge as fire and hazmat teams. But to expect a policeman to be conversant with operating procedures or be able to operate a locomotive is out of the question.
And Bucyrus, it was the desk sargeant who refused to send a car to the crossing incident in this case. Bad "copmanship" in my book.
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CShaveRRI'm curious: the sheriff sees a bad track condition on CN and calls UP? The lines are parallel, but he didn't know which was which? And didn't know which was the busier of the two lines going through town? Yes, a lot more railroad awareness is needed!
Yes! And not knowing is almost criminal.
That quote about the sheriff not knowing anything about stopping trains? What nonsense. I'll bet you 9 out of 10 3rd graders know that freight trains take a long distance to stop and that a reasonable effort to get one to stop might be to go up the track a ways and make a ruckus.
The effort could fall far short of conforming with railroad rules but still have a pretty good chance of success.
The sheriff's dept may have been busy with other thing from the rain. But, which of them was worse than track speed, mainline train derailment?
Where was the effort? Where was the follow though?
This sure appears like CN is rightfully going to wear the blame for this and the sheriff's dept may not have done anything wrong. "We called the railroad, so if anything happens, they can't blame us!" seems to be the attitude.
From the Winnebago County Sheriff's dept mission statement "we will maintain the peace, protect lives and property to the very best of our ability" (http://www.winnebagosheriff.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)
Did they do this?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd This sure appears like CN is rightfully going to wear the blame for this and the sheriff's dept may not have done anything wrong. "We called the railroad, so if anything happens, they can't blame us!" seems to be the attitude.
So far I haven't seen anything that indicated that anyone on the ground at the scene even knew a train was coming. I would submit that if they did, perhaps they would have taken further measures.
Given the weather situation in the area at the time, law enforcement probably did do all they could. We don't know what the other demands were on the police at the time - there may have been multiple wires down situations - clearly a hazard to the public, and moreso than a washout on a railroad line where you've already called the railroad and can't see any trains coming.
Insisting that they should be conversant in railroad operations is like suggesting they should be conversant in [pick your obscure subject here] - it's not germaine to their day to day operations. Most likely any hazmat training they have is at the awareness level - keep your distance and call in the experts.
As we've discussed here, the response time from the railroad (which, if we use the sheriff's numbers was actually more than 21 minutes, since the train crew was never notified of the situation before the incident) may not have been out of line given normal procedures and practices.
I'm sure there will be damages paid, and procedures will be carefully reviewed and cleaned up if necessary, but I'm not sure that anyone really did anything wrong.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It may be useful to step back a bit from this, and look at the broader question of how urgent messages about track and/ or train conditions from non-railroad employees can cut through the 'clutter' of the normal press of business and get to the right person ASAP - as contrasted with non-urgent messages.
Employees with a radio are in a unique position, of course, because they can contact a nearby train directly, without having to go through the dispatcher, or call the DS directly without having to go through 'channels' or a phone 'tree'.
But everyone else has to go through that sometimes cumbersome communication process - even those employees with the right phone numbers, who don't happen to have a radio. Of course, if anyone actually sees a train coming, they can flag it down directly - as long as they are in front of it. But if they see something unsafe anytime after the locomotives pass - or before the train is in sight - then they too have no practical way to communicate with the crew.
So the question remains. To make it easier to visualize, suppose there's a smoking or flaming 'hotbox' - no question that it's a serious safety problem, and the train needs to be stopped ASAP. A non-railroader sees it, happens to have the right 1-800 number handy, and calls it. Then what should happen - and what actually happens - and how fast [Q]
On the other hand, suppose someone calls in with a clearly minor problem - say, an open door on a box car. Who does that call get routed to so that its priority can be assessed and not get in the way of more important things [Q] Again, then what should happen - and what actually happens - and how fast [Q]
Finally, suppose a well-meaning but uninformed person - a layperson, or a Constable On Patrol ['cop'] - calls in with a problem, but is understandably less than clear about what it is and exactly where it is. Who is the person assigned to sort that out, and then buck the message up the chain-of-command to the DS [or others], as appropriate for the urgency of the situation [Q] Do they have a 'hot-line' to the Chief Dispatcher's desk when they need it [Q] Do they have the training to know when and when not to use it [Q]
As I think about this further, if the railroad police desk continues to be the first point of contact for the outside world - which may be appropriate, because they are the most accustomed to dealing with the uninformed public regarding the railroad - they may need more 'horsepower', authority, and training to get to the right person as quickly as needed. Although it is usually staffed 24-7-365, think about the calls that will come in, esp. from the 1-800 numbers at the grade crossings. Most of those will likely be about a malfunctioning grade crossing signal. What is the Police Dept. going to do about that directly [Q] Not much, except maybe to send someone out to manually protect or flag the crossing, pending repairs - and most importantly, notify the people who really need to know about it - the C and S Dept. to send a maintainer to perform those repairs, and the DS to issue the appropriate cautionary orders to the train crews in the meantime. Likewise, in the hotbox or washout scenarios here, again there's not much that the railroad police can do about those directly. Do they even know which train might be involved or heading that way [Q] And if so, do the railroad police have the authority to contact the trains directly [Q] If not, then again the message has to go through the DS anyway. Perhaps a better process is for such calls to go directly to an assistant DS who isn't busy working a desk or territory, or the Chief's administrative assistant, who can then go and tug on his/ her sleeve and get their attention ASAP.
If the railroad police are going to continue to be the screeners of these kinds of calls - which may nevertheless continue to be the best way - then the process needs to be as streamlined as possible, so that something like the flaming hotbox scenario can be routinely addressed in a minute or two - not 21 minutes.
No expertise or 'agenda' here - just my 2 cents' worth.
- Paul North.
At one time, long ago, people in small towns knew when to expect a train, because they pretty much came through at the same times. It would not be unreasonable to expect the local police could go down the tracks to flag the 3pm local due to a washout. But in 2009, I see a washout, no cellphone handy (I'm off the electronic leash thank you), I walk down the track because I know the roadrailer is on the way. I wave like mad in an attempt to stop the train. Whats the crew going to do? Call the DS, ask for the RR police to get that idiot off the tracks and have him arrested.
So we are back to the original problem of how to effectivly communicate a problem to the correct recipent.
John
No, John, if you flag a train and tell the crew what you percieve is wrong, they will usually be glad and not report you as an idiot. But you cannot be an alarmist or wrong. A hot box, stuck break, track obstruction, broken rail, washout, etc. are legitimate. If you are a railfan, as most of us here are, we probalby know the hand signal for hotbox and stuck brake; but those who don't know will have to find a way to communicate. To expect everyone to know these signals, or how to explain the percieved danger in precise railroad terms, is impractical at best. When railroads were "king", most people knew about trains and teminology, it was part of their lives. Today, people know the vernacular of computers, television and film, space, and other current technololgies and social phenomena, and not about railroads.
I have flagged a train for hot box and another for a stuck brake. Since there was no caboose, I got ahead of the trains and to a grade crossing. The engineer seeing me giving the hand signals leaned out the window holding his hand to his ear asking me to shout to him to reaffirm my signals. Both times the train was able to take care of the problem before disaster and there were no consequences to me. But again, not everybody knows the signals and not everybody knows to know the location of the car in the train or its reporting marks.(helpful information in taking care of the problem). As long as the report of a problem is legitimate, the railroad and the crew, are not going to chastise you.
henry6 Law enforcement official on private property? Doubt it for several reasons. First, it would be tresspassing and also not of thier juristiction. Secondly, liability...to and from the railroad and to and from the enforcment agency's authority. Third, there probably was a lot more that the law enforcement agency had on its hands. The real question here lies in the chain of communication, its design, its logistics, its locations, its definitions, its people, its messages, its congestion, etc, etc.
Law enforcement official on private property? Doubt it for several reasons. First, it would be tresspassing and also not of thier juristiction. Secondly, liability...to and from the railroad and to and from the enforcment agency's authority. Third, there probably was a lot more that the law enforcement agency had on its hands. The real question here lies in the chain of communication, its design, its logistics, its locations, its definitions, its people, its messages, its congestion, etc, etc.
But I've seen it done a few times when public safety was involved and, on one personally memorable occasion, when a dog had been struck by a train, a story I'd love to tell but I'll save it for when I'm no longer associated with my employer.
Perhaps this has already been addressed by others, I just started wading through this topic.
There is enough hyperbole, hysteria and hearsay floating around here to choke a horse.
It will be interesting to watch the outcome of the NTSB and FRA investigations when the facts can be scrutinized, especially where the digital and tape records from Homewood and the Sheriff's Office (plus a few more locations come into play)....It will also be interesting to see if the overly centralized DS center and staff workload comes into play along with how many bogus calls did the CN have to deal with along with the other calls. From experience, I know all too well that for every legitimate call, you get a pile of garbage calls to go with them. Every railroad MOW and signal supervisor has spent nights chasing phantom calls (this includes calls and over-reaction from emergency services people too).
There are a lot of assumptions here on getting a hold of the dispatcher. While I do not know how the CN does it, at the class one that I dispatch at there is little lag time for things like this. The police command center, whose phone number is on every crossing and is the point of contact for local police, has a hot line for each of the dispatcher desks, as well as all the ACDs. When the hotline rings on the dispatchers desk, the dispatcher is required to stop what he/she is doing and take the hotline call. These calls happen more than one might think with crossing malfunctions, stalled/stuck autos on the track and such.
An "expensive model collector"
This han't been a really happy few months for CN has it? I mean everyone along the EJ&E hates them for setting brush fires, and now... a derailment that killed one! Wow. I kind of feel bad for them.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
But then again, 21 min. is a long time compared to some other incadents.
Paul_D_North_JrBut everyone else has to go through that sometimes cumbersome communication process - even those employees with the right phone numbers, who don't happen to have a radio.
Paul_D_North_JrIt may be useful to step back a bit from this, and look at the broader question of how urgent messages about track and/ or train conditions from non-railroad employees can cut through the 'clutter' of the normal press of business and get to the right person ASAP - as contrasted with non-urgent messages
PDN::: This communication problem of emergencys is a long one no matter what the business is. I've written revisions to many emergency response manuals (ERM) and it appears to all come down to the first reporters.
Now how to apply this to RRs? One way that comes to mind is for the RRs to do a complete survey of the critical locations on their ROW and any other RRs in each emergencyu Jurisdiction. Then provide to the local emergency call center a loose leaf book or flash drive to update computer dispatch system with the following informationl.
1.Top of each page. Local location name. ie Green avenue crossing.
2. emergency numbers. RR, Chemtrek, Amtrak if applicable
3. A cross reference of a local location to RR jargon. This would get the 911 dispatcher calling the correct RR location.
4. Railway #(s) to call.
This would include various VRU punch ins if applicable on that RR to hurry communications.
ie: all problems, crossing problem, washout, derailment, truck on track, etc
The cross reference noted for report; ie: Green Ave crossing is Mile Post G-482.85
A standarized format of how to report problem
ex. This is officer _______ of the ________ city, state 911 center we have had ______ report(s) of a wash out at MP G-482.85 we ( have/have no)t had a squad car on site to verify this report yet.
Our return number is (___-___-____)
The telephone number(s)of the reporter (s) is (____________)( if reporter identified himself) .
Any other items you posters can think of?
Good suggestion and thoughts. Here's mine:
Map ? Either paper and/ or digital format, such as Geogrpahic Information System - GIS ("ArcGIS") format ?
9-1-1 address cross-reference for each local railroad location name ? I.e., "CP 425 is at = 1125 Green St."
GPS coordinates for same - now that's almost universal and pretty much a common-enough basis and accuracy for this purpose, that can cut through the confusion of where "here" is, and the clutter of different names for essentially the same place. "We show that location as being at N 75.1234 degrees, W 40.9876 degrees", etc.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Paul, or to any one else who may know the answer.
So I guess that unless there is a short in the track circiut, or a break in the actual physcal rail itself, the dispatcher doesn't know about any problems?
Might as well include the official AAR/DOT crossing number on the XREF list, as posted on each and every crossing. In fact, that would be better than lat-lon.
Encourage local jurisdictions to build an XREF for situations such as seemed to be the case in Rockford, where there were several crossings near each other on the same street. That way they can simply initiate separate calls for each suspect crossing. Better safe than sorry.
Just heard the exact reverse of this problem tonight. Seems a delivery truck was dropping off some ATVs at a local dealer and parked his truck right on a crossing. Not a siding - the main. I think it was the local that came up on him. They apparently stopped short, no collision, and reported the problem to their dispatcher, who called our 9-1-1 center. The patrol that was sent out couldn't find anything (I'm presuming the truck had moved by then), but was also confused because that particular street crosses the tracks twice...
To add a bit to the number of calls such call takers get - our 9-1-1 center knows that for every incident that occurs on the interstate that they will get 10-20 cell calls.
CShaveRRBlue Streak, the format you're proposing sounds like it's intended to leave information on a recording device. .
Absolutely not!!!!!! My mention of VRUs is some are required to get to a real person. If not so the better.
PDN:::::Good suggestion and thoughts. Here's mine:
You cannot expect too much from the public in general...it would be exceptional for one to make a phone call unless the problem involved him directly and immediately. The railroad has not existed in so many lives since passenger trains stopped running and there was no more Railway Express or L.C.L freight, and the depot closed, and the local factory converted to truck or left town, too. No, the public cannot be counted on. 911, however, must be trained! They have to know what railroads run through thier juristiction: where the crossings are, the layout of each, railroad as well as geographical location, railroad name for it as well as the local name or number and the vernacular name; have and know phone numbers for railroad emergencies be it police, dispatchers, track foreman, or the road's president, and know how each railroad operates and want to have emergencies handled; they have to know what questions to ask the caller and/or the police unit calling in to ascertain how he has to react and what he has to do.. As was mentioned earlier, many fire departments are trained to handle hazmat and other railroad situations, so should the police and 911 operators. But railroads have to be forthcoming with information about thier desired procedures and the proper phone numbers to be called for any given situtation, including a contact number of last resort. It puts a lot on a 911 operator, maybe, but we have set up this system of handleing emergencies, et al, so we must make it work for us the best ways possible.
For comparison and some guidelines as to how this could be handled more systematically, I'm thinking of other similar industrial situations where the lines run cross-country, the public wouldn't have much of a clue about where and what's wrong - and the 9-1-1 staff maybe not much better - without some special information and training:
How do the power companies handle this kind of thing with the high-tension lines and towers ?
Pipelines, and their pumping stations ?
Interstate highways and turnpikes, where there's not an address every couple hundred feet, and intersections are not a mile or two apart, but 5 to 10 miles ? I know, use the mile markers - but how well are those maintained ? What about the middle of the night ?
Larry's suggestion about the AAR-USDOT Crossing Inventory ID number is good - unless the situation is away from a crossing. And even at a crossing - "Uhh, sir, could you go over and look at one of the signals or the metal shed and see if you can find a sign or plaque that looks like a license plate and has 6 numbers and a letter at the end, and read that information to me ?" Tick, tick, tick . . .
FWIW
I just read all of these post and It seems like you guys have all the answers to bad they dont go to these questions. Even one of the editors from trains magazine had the wrong answers Lighting a fusee and dropping it will not stop a train. And while I wont go into the exact rule in the book I will say this if you drop a fusee im not required to stop, However there is other things( i wont get into) that is required of me but stopping is not one of them.
From the Railroad Gazette:
August 1890
8th, on Georgia Pacific, near Temple, Ga., butting collision between a freight train and a construction train, wrecking the engines and several cars of both. The engineer of the freight was killed and a brakeman badly hurt. It is said that the runner of the freight, on being flagged, called out to the flagman as his train passed, “I’ve got my orders and am on time. The track is mine and they will have to clear the way.”
wabash1Lighting a fusee and dropping it will not stop a train.
No, it won't. Some action on the part of the engineer is required, including using his intelligence to evaluate the situation, and then determine a suitable course of action.
wabash1if you drop a fusee im not required to stop
Just imagine if someone saw the washout, and had some road flares in his/her trunk. Not knowing what else to do, and knowing that road flares are used by the police in case of accident, this person grabed a flare and put it on the tracks. Now imagine this person watching a train pass over his warning flare without taking any action; then imagine this person seeing the explosion from the derailment. Now, wabash1, imagine you were the engineer on that train--do you think your decision to NOT stop for the flare might possibly come under scrutiny?!? You may not have been required to stop, but perhaps, as my old rulebook said right on the cover: "In case of doubt or uncertainty, the SAFE course must be taken".
A red fusee burning along side a track means "STOP"! Doesn't matter who put it there, it means "STOP!" And any good railroader know that when in doubt you always take the safest course so, when you see a red fusee burning near your track, you "STOP!" Unlike the macho bravado of the 1890's guy who had his schedule and no orders were going to change his course, you take the safest course, you "STOP!". Then call the dispatcher.
With regard to the freight train's engineer in that accident wreck summary from the 1890 Railroad Gazette posted by Bucyrus [above] -
'He was right - dead right.'
[as the auto-safety ad from the 1960s used to say, if I recall correctly.]
From the NORAC Operating Rules circa 2005 [mainly for eastern railroads] from - http://www.modernrailroading.com/DigitalLibrary/Norac/norac.htm
14. Unattended Fusees If a train on a main track or controlled siding encounters an unattended fusee burning on a main track or controlled siding, or on a track next to a main track or controlled siding, it must stop. It must then proceed at Restricted Speed until the head end is 1 mile beyond the fusee.A train must not be stopped over a burning fusee if it can be avoided. If so stopped and the train cannot be moved, the fusee must be extinguished.Fusees must not be placed on bridges or other structures that are liable to be damaged by fire.
13. Hand Signals [snip]
Any object waved violently by anyone on or near the track is a signal to stop. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From one version of the General Code of Operating Rules [mainly for western railroads], from - http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/index.html
If a train approaches an unattended fusee burning on or near its track, the train must stop before passing the fusee, if consistent with good train handling.
A train moving at restricted speed must stop before passing the fusee.
After the fusee bums out, or after 10 minutes if the fusee is not visible, the train must proceed at restricted speed until the head end is 1 mile beyond the fusee.
If the unattended burning fusee is beyond the first rail of an adjacent track, the fusee does not apply to the track on which the train is moving. Do not place fusees where they may cause fires.
Do not place fusees where they may cause fires.
Well, gentlemen, NS rules do not require a train to stop for a burning fusee and neither do CSX rules. However, I will state that if I see a fusee, I'll probably stretch brake the train to a stop and then proceed at restricted speed, depending on circumstances. NS requires restricted speed movement for one mile and CSX requires it for fifteen minutes. I've no idea what CN rules require.
Once met a cop in an emergency situation who had no clue how to light a fusee, I was almost lying in the street from laughter watching him. I just couldn't help myself.
Tree, Streak & PDN:
Best to leave the LAT/LON and GIS out of the picture. That DOT # is like gold to the railroad (and pray the street involved is not Main Street)..
As far as GIS goes, don't trust it...just did a project in Illinois involving three crossings (all in a row, two public, one private) which kinda gives you a peek at what's wrong with GIS and GPS, especially when the the state DOT (instead of the railroad) maintains the record with the people that have no clue what they are doing:
East to west:
(1) Public Crossing (a state highway); correct DOT# on site, not shown in GIS, Correct scaled LAT/LON using NAD'27 ...right road name on old hand carried data
(2) Private crossing (been there a long time) - GIS puts it in the next state(Iowa!); Historical record originally input by railroad is correct (scaled off USGS Quad probably); updated by state to a different lat /lon miles away by DOT "changed crossing"; freshly placed DOT # at site not in the system at all and not in the original railroad numbering sequence....
(3) Public Crossing (county road) ....crossbucks only, inventory says Flashers Lights & Bells, Inventory shows wrong RR owner, tag in field correct, wrong road name on form (somebody changed it again), got in the proper place in the GIS but nearly 1000' off, butchered Lat & Lon
Data Integrity? (this is about 1/2 mile of one railroad).....Dear ESRI/ArcInfo: Congratulations, you cornered the market, now quit stinkin' up the place.....Dear Department of Transportation: Please change name back to Highway Department until you get a clue.....
(GIS in an urban setting is even worse, depending on what datum you are on, you are already 1000+' off before you start, you may have engineers using state plane coordinates who don't savvy grid to ground, you may be directed to the wrong crossing by the emergency dispatcher)
ValleyX Well, gentlemen, NS rules do not require a train to stop for a burning fusee and neither do CSX rules. However, I will state that if I see a fusee, I'll probably stretch brake the train to a stop and then proceed at restricted speed, depending on circumstances. NS requires restricted speed movement for one mile and CSX requires it for fifteen minutes. I've no idea what CN rules require. Once met a cop in an emergency situation who had no clue how to light a fusee, I was almost lying in the street from laughter watching him. I just couldn't help myself.
I'm with Mud.
Should I cite how many grade crossings that have split jurisdictions and each side claims a different street name? Or highway number? Or can't even agree on spelling?
RWM
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