edblysard Ok Murphy, Then a little test/opinion poll. Would you consider me an introvert? ............... ...................So, based on what you do know about me, what would you consider me to be, an extrover or an introvert? And no, I will take no insult from what ever opinion you or others may have formed, this is simply a way to measure other peoples idea of the two personalities mentioned.
Ok Murphy,
Then a little test/opinion poll.
Would you consider me an introvert? ...............
...................So, based on what you do know about me, what would you consider me to be, an extrover or an introvert?
And no, I will take no insult from what ever opinion you or others may have formed, this is simply a way to measure other peoples idea of the two personalities mentioned.
Let me back up a bit and clarify something. I'm not trying to pass any kind of judgement about extroverts/introverts. It was my observation, that introverts, like me, are attracted to forums like this, because we're more comfortable with it. That's not to say, that all people who enjoy and use this forums are introverts.
That being said, I don't know that I could or would want to *classify* someone, based on their interaction on the forum. (How's that for a wimpy non- answer?) You seem to pocess the best attributes of both.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Would you consider me an introvert?
I belong to this forum, and two other, both being pen turning and woodworking forums, all three dealing with detailed, specialized subject matter and topics.
I have been a regular member of all three for many years.
I enjoy detail and precise work.
I enjoy the company of other train fans, and other woodworkers.
I rarely meet anyone I dislike instantly.
I read one to two books a week, on subject matters ranging from science fiction, horror, to history and current events, I don't enjoy much of what is on TV unless it is a teaching program, or one that explains how things work or are made.
One the other hand, I belonged to a US Calvary Group, rode in many parades, ride still when I can, love performing in front of large audiences, and drive a very eye catching and noticable car.
You and I have had several private conversations, and I have had other conversations with many forum members, met quite a few in person, so...where would you/they place me in your theory and theme?
I already know what the professional answer is..my oldest daughter suffers from clinical chronic depression, which produces many "umbrella" effects, the most common is a diagnosis of Attention Deficit Disorder and extrem introversion, so I have spent many hours in professional consultation with her doctors, undergone several extensive test my self in order to better understand her condition, and can live comfortably with their assessment of my own personality.
I have met Carl in person, and agree with his assessment of his own personality...by the way, he "collects" freight cars and belongs to a car spotters organization/club.
When a car or a series of cars come by that he has been hunting, out comes the pocket notebook and pen, and he ceases to pay attention to anything but the cars, like a coin collector searching for that one mint piece, he ignores all distractions and does his note taking...I bet you could set off a small bomb behind him and he would intentionally ignore it.
But away from trackside, he is outgoing, funny, friendly and knowledgable on many, many subject not in the least bit releated to trains...so it begs the question...
So, based on what you do know about me, what would you consider me to be, an extrover or an introvert?
Murphy Siding trainfan1221 Didn't this thread just start off with a basic question....? Sometimes, we just never know where we're headed. My main interest, was in that introverts seem to be attracted to internet forums, and to be able to revel in narrowly defined subject matters that require some thought> trains, for example.
trainfan1221 Didn't this thread just start off with a basic question....?
Didn't this thread just start off with a basic question....?
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The inventory, which is what it is legitimately called, is based on a theory, and manifested on the interpretation of the theory that Myers and Briggs, Mother and daugher team IIRC, filtered through their biases and limitations (and learning, to be fair) to derive something that they enjoyed and that made sense to them. Neither person had any graduate training in statistical analysis, and none in psychology's relevant field of "Personality". The senior partner did avail herself of expert advice and guidance in running the tests of significance, validity and reliability on the data.
Unfortunately, despite all the analysis, the theory is suspect, so the validity of the inventory (i.e., that it measures what it purports to measure) is doubtful. Any derived results should never be used for selection purposes (this from a fellow whose user-name is selector because that is what I did for a living at one time). If it were a good predicitve inventory, it would be used more widely. But no schools of any repute use it to select their candidates, and the Canadian Armed Forces has no use for it...period. For any organization to deny employment (a chance to earn a living) on the basis of the results is, in my opinion, unethical.
What we don't know is how the results can be correlated with "self-selection" in terms of what people will do if given the option. For example, relevant to Norris' question at the outset, do many more introverts than extraverts elect to build layouts and run trains, or maybe just lurk or participate on forums and groups here and there? As a whole, do "model railroaders", or "railfans", or "foamers" gravitate to groups where they actually belong to a club and participate and socialize if they show a preference (the correct terminology in MBTI-speak) for extraversion over introverson? Maybe there is no statistical difference. If so, then it would cast some doubt on the efficacy of the model. If the construct called "introversion" is valid, and if accurately characterized by those measuring it with any given instrument, then one would expect more extraverts than introverts to routinely appear at club meetings, and the introverts to cackle at their keyboards when they feel they've scored a point.
-Crandell
selector BucyrusIt seems to me that perceiving can only occur through the means of sensing, intuition, thinking, or feeling. And moreover, none of those four can occur without perceiving. So why is perceiving a stand-alone item as contrasted to judging? The MBTI is based on Carl Jung's theories on personality. His assertion was that there are two basic ways to perceive: by intuition and by sensing. Perceiving in turn leads to cognition, and that would be the "thinking" component. -Crandell
BucyrusIt seems to me that perceiving can only occur through the means of sensing, intuition, thinking, or feeling. And moreover, none of those four can occur without perceiving. So why is perceiving a stand-alone item as contrasted to judging?
The MBTI is based on Carl Jung's theories on personality. His assertion was that there are two basic ways to perceive: by intuition and by sensing. Perceiving in turn leads to cognition, and that would be the "thinking" component.
That seems sensible enough, and the terms of the four dichotomies have clear meanings to me. But when I read about the structure and meaning of the whole test, and how the four dichotomies interact with each other, and sometimes reverse their meanings depending the outcome of other dichotomies, I can truly say that I have never seen anything explained in such a confusing way. I don’t trust it.
For one thing the test seems to assume that people can be classified by measuring those personality behavioral characteristics. Yet in many, if not most personalities, I think that those characteristics are actually shifting in strength and dominance all the time.
I think it was the book LISTENING TO PROZAC that offered the thesis that many Americans on the drug are (possibly not knowing themselves) medicating their introversion into extraversion. And that in many countries the count is 60 percent intravert, 40 percent extrovert, here in the USA it's the opposite: 60 percent extrovert, 40 percent intravert. I don't know if that thesis works perfectly, but if it did then a fifth of Americans are medicating themselves or otherwise jollying themselves into extraversion -- it needn't be an entire personality change, but Prozac and similar drugs can give a bit of a boost to extraverted tendencies.
I can tell you that if someone (human resource dept. for example), gives you the Myers-Briggs Personality test (sometimes called Personality Inventory), they are checking to see how you rate (this is very general) (1) as Extravert or Intovert, (2) at your decision-making style, (3) at your way of gathering information, and (4) at taking charge or leading people. Big corporations, naturally enough, prefer most of their hirees to be extraverts who enjoy working with people, basing decisions on precedent (NORAC would be one example) rather than self-judgment, and able to fold their experience into all that. They don't always insist on Extraverts, but it is a desire for most job positions.
Introverts, if someone gives you this test, feel free to cheat. The categories possible under Myers-Briggs are polar opposites, but most people are near the dividing line.
OTOH there are so many successful people here who have worked or are working for RR companies, as professionals, in business, etc., that either we can't ALL be introverts or that introverts can be quite flexible depending on circumstance. Some of you want to give up Option Three, 'That Test Is B.S." Actually iIMHO and experience, the testt can work quite well when properly administered, but much of the time it is given (at least here in the USA) the people giving the test and interpreting it don't do it quite right.
If I am accidentally duplicating someone else's information, please forgive me. This topic got hot and caught fire really fast! Murph, did you have any idea how many responses you would get? - al
Murphy Siding Did we all marry extroverts?
No, not all of us married extroverts. At least, I did not. Ricki and I are quite happy at home by ourselves. We are not "party people," and simply do not enjoy idle conversation. We do enjoy the company of some other people (such as Carl and Pat), and when we are traveling we usually enjoy the company of other people in a diner. Indeed, on our last trip, all of our table companions were pleasant company; we even ate with one man twice, on two different trains, and he seemed to enjoy the companionship at both meals. We have had some table companions who were not companionable at all, but such were rare.
At home, Ricki and I are quite happy staying out of each other's way, and Ricki says that she does not regret my having retired (10-2-06).
When I lived in Reform, Alabama, I participated in the activities of the Birmingham chapter of the NRHS, but when we moved here, participation in the local chapter was impracticable for several years, and I simply have not felt moved to participate in recent years. I have really enjoyed the interaction on various threads of the various Trains forums since I started following them, and I regret that I waited as long as I did before taking part. As has been said, we can interact as we see fit, and there is no pressure to participate if we do not want to.
Johnny
john_edwards It seems to me that perceiving can only occur through the means of sensing, intuition, thinking, or feeling. And moreover, none of those four can occur without perceiving. So why is perceiving a stand-alone item as contrasted to judging? Oh NO, you are trying to insert logic into this thread.
It seems to me that perceiving can only occur through the means of sensing, intuition, thinking, or feeling. And moreover, none of those four can occur without perceiving. So why is perceiving a stand-alone item as contrasted to judging?
Oh NO, you are trying to insert logic into this thread.
Well sure......logic works for introverts.....can I think it over, and get back to you?
Paul_D_North_Jr Hey Murphy - How'd you get that out of my personnel file ?!? You keep reading stuff like that, we'll have to throw you outta here !!! Actually, you beat me to it - that's a thread topic I've had in mind for a while. Except that I was going to frame it around the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator ("MBTI") or "personality type", which is based on the following 4 scales and dichotomies (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator ): Extraversion <====> Introversion (E or/ vs. I) Sensing <====> INtuition (S or/ vs. N) Thinking <====> Feeling (T or/ vs. F) Judging <====> Perceiving (J or/ vs. P) My wife and her study group prefers to analyze such things with the "9 types" of the "Enneagram of Personality". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality and http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ and http://www.9types.com , etc. Then there's always horoscopes, ouija boards, voodoo, . . . - Paul North. (an MBTI "INTJ" - 2.1 %).
Hey Murphy - How'd you get that out of my personnel file ?!?
You keep reading stuff like that, we'll have to throw you outta here !!!
Actually, you beat me to it - that's a thread topic I've had in mind for a while. Except that I was going to frame it around the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator ("MBTI") or "personality type", which is based on the following 4 scales and dichotomies (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator ):
Extraversion <====> Introversion (E or/ vs. I)
Sensing <====> INtuition (S or/ vs. N)
Thinking <====> Feeling (T or/ vs. F)
Judging <====> Perceiving (J or/ vs. P)
My wife and her study group prefers to analyze such things with the "9 types" of the "Enneagram of Personality". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality and http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ and http://www.9types.com , etc.
Then there's always horoscopes, ouija boards, voodoo, . . .
- Paul North. (an MBTI "INTJ" - 2.1 %).
Or: "He warp !" - from a science fiction short story by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. (?) like 35 or 40 years ago.
Paul_D_North_Jr Extraversion <====> Introversion (E or/ vs. I) Sensing <====> INtuition (S or/ vs. N) Thinking <====> Feeling (T or/ vs. F) Judging <====> Perceiving (J or/ vs. P)
I took the test and was told I was a "JPN".
They seemed reluctant to tell me what that meant.
I pressed them for an explanation.
They said it meant "Just Plain Nuts".
A former co-worker had studied psychology, psychiatry, or something (it's been a while). He related that he had once in class listened to a recorded conversation between a psychiatrist and someone who was apparently certifiably insane. He said it took several minutes to figure out which was which...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
That says more to me about the author's psychological state - - than it does about the model railroaders. Wonder what he saw in the Rorschach (sp ?) ink blot tests ? Scary stuff, man.
FWIW, I had a now-deceased uncle who was a well-regarded child psychiatrist. I believe he did a lot of good for his patients - some of whom I understood had some really messed-up backgrounds - but his own life and that of his 4 now adult children as they were growing up and since then were far from normal, to put it nicely. Someplace I read that dogs and cats are pretty good judges of personality - I'd put more faith in them than some of the so-called "experts".
- PDN.
P.S. - Most of my post-war Lionel train collection came from his eldest son, who lost interest in them and gave them up when he became a teenager. Too bad for him . . .
There could be something to it, of course what about all the model railroad clubs?? There were more clubs in the past, when model railroading was primarily in O scale and you needed a big area to really get things rolling, but there still are a lot of clubs which have a lot of social contact, as may NMRA conventions, swap meets, railfan trips, etc.
It could be it reflects one aspect of our personalities too. I can see as a "lone wolf" modeller that it appeals to my introverted side, but then again I played sports thru college and still compete weekly in a bowling league. At the league, I'm sure I'm much more extroverted, joking around etc. than I am at other times like at work, or when I'm home working on the layout and just want to be left alone with the radio on.
However I agree with the previous post that in general it's very tricky to get into "pop psychology" and make broad statements about people based on their interests, hobbies, etc. There was a book a few years ago where the author speculated that the reason so many model railroaders had beards was because the beard made them resemble the "face" of a steam engine, with the beard being the pilot (and I suppose the sideburns being the steps on either side of the smokebox) and their nose being the headlight etc.
CShaveRRBoyd I wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it. Asperger's is a mild form of autism. A couple of years ago my sister hit me with her opinion that I had autism, and that was how she explained a lot of my childhood behaviors (she's a teacher of developmentally-disabled children, so she can spot behaviors). A counselor we'd used, when told of this, said she'd been thinking Asperger's. This diagnosis, according to some, even explains our tendencies toward the love of trains. To say that I married an extrovert is putting it very mildly--thank Goodness!
Boyd I wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it.
I wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it.
Asperger's is what I meant in this portion of one of my posts from yesterday:
"Another thought just struck me (because it's one of my wife's ongoing crusades): Is there any correlation between introversion as we're discussing it here, and autism or autistic tendencies (whatever that syndrome is called), which I understand is far more prevalent in males than females ? "
From http://www.aspergers.com/ - "ASPERGER'S DISORDER HOMEPAGE":
[emphasis added - PDN.]
From the "What is Asperger's Disorder?" page at:
http://www.aspergers.com/aspclin.htm
"They usually have a circumscribed area of interest which usually leaves no space for more age appropriate, common interests. Some examples are cars, trains, French Literature, door knobs, hinges, cappucino, meteorology, astronomy or history."
[ PDN's comment on this: Gee, thanks a lot ! ]
and from the "What is the epidemiology of Asperger's Disorder ?" page at:
http://www.aspergers.com/aspepi.htm
"the male/female ratio was 4:1" (based on a Swedish study).
From the last 2 paragraphs of the Wikipedia article, under "Cultural Aspects", at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
[emphasis added for clarity, not necessarily advocacy - PDN].
"Autistic people have advocated a shift in perception of autism spectrum disorders as complex syndromes rather than diseases that must be cured. Proponents of this view reject the notion that there is an "ideal" brain configuration and that any deviation from the norm is pathological; they promote tolerance for what they call neurodiversity.[88] These views are the basis for the autistic rights and autistic pride movements.[89] There is a contrast between the attitude of adults with self-identified AS, who typically do not want to be cured and are proud of their identity, and parents of children with AS, who typically seek assistance and a cure for their children.[90]"
"Some researchers have argued that AS can be viewed as a different cognitive style, not a disorder or a disability.[7][91] In a 2002 paper, Simon Baron-Cohen wrote of those with AS, "In the social world there is no great benefit to a precise eye for detail, but in the worlds of math, computing, cataloguing, music, linguistics, engineering, and science, such an eye for detail can lead to success rather than failure." Baron-Cohen cited two reasons why it might still be useful to consider AS to be a disability: to ensure provision for legally required special support, and to recognize emotional difficulties from reduced empathy.[92] It has been argued that the genes for Asperger's combination of abilities have operated throughout recent human evolution and have made remarkable contributions to human history.[93]"
I think I heard Simon Baron-Cohen on a talk show about a year ago. I might learn to like that guy !
- Paul North.
BoydI wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it.Â
I wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it.Â
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
For many years I was a disk jockey, locked up in a studio, alone, talking to a microphone. Later I go into sales and never wanted to back to the studio full time. However, in sales I spend a lot of time in the car alone with face to face contact with clients in many different venues...its is more fun and enlightening than sitting in a sudio alone.
My railfanning experiences have been similarly mixed. As a kid, I found that prowling alone I got further than when with a group...met more railroaders, rode more engines, got in more towers. But a group meeting was a lot of fun and I learned a lot. As an adult I was a member of groups but found I was traveling on trains alone, especially when visiting the folks back in Jersey--simply nobody wanted to go with me. But I found that inviting friends to join me on my jaunts was fun and gave us all an opportunity to ride and see a lot of NY Metropolitan area railroading. We've done it regularly over the past ten years with two to five people. It has been so much fun and so successful as a railfan jaunt that in my retirement it has led to a chance for me to offer my services for such trip planning and escorting at a small fee to cover my expenses: it allows me to continue to do it, it exposes other railfans to much more railroading than they thought possible in an area they are unfamiliar with, and as a social event, it is a lot of fun for all.
So, my railfan experiences mirror my work experiences in that I have been both introverted and extroverted at various times. And it always has been fun and rewarding.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
When I railroaded I was in a tower or bridge so I was alone most of the time. When I watch trains I am alone or with my grand kids. Train shows same thing, enjoy going but mind my own business.
Paul, Thanks for posting this. My MBTI is ISTJ. I've taken the Myers-Briggs a couple of times with the Military. It came out the same both times. My E and I scores were identical and my J and P scores were pure J, not one P. In our class of military officers fully one quarter of the class were STJ and the instructor said that the STJ trait was common to many military officers. Maybe its the training. George Patton was said to be an ESTJ. Bottom line is that it takes all kinds.
Does this prove anything about being a railfan? I dunno, but will continue to study this thread.
Ed
I'm an ENTJ, boarderline between E and I, and heavy on the T and J...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Murphy SidingDid we all marry extroverts?
I wouldn't be surprised...
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
CShaveRR I am devastatingly logical (just ask Pat!).
There's a quote to the effect of: "If you don't like - or aren't comfortable - being alone with yourself - then what does that say about you ?"
I may have mangled that quite a bit, but hopefuly you'll get the idea.
In my business life I spend virtually all of my time either speaking with customers or associates on the phone or in person and spend great amounts of time at business functions like meals, conferences, etc....and so I personally like to have as much "quiet time" when I am "off duty" so to speak, as possible and really like such modern technology such as caller ID on the phone, etc. so if I don't want to speak to somebody, I don't have to. I don't think this makes me an introvert but rather someone who cherishes his private time, either with immediate family or alone if appropriate. I like this forum communication method at times but also fully enjoy the company of fellow railfans when I am out and about engaged in our hobby.
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