Sam....If you enlarge the image and look at the area you question, it seems to make the ROW visible as it swings around that "opening" on the hillside. Seems to follow around right along the hillside, keeping the grade constant.
I would think any action in the future could be done by rail vehicles. From bringing up machinery and other material to do what's necessary to close that massive gap....Piling, etc.....
Quentin
Modelcar Sam....If you enlarge the image and look at the area you question, it seems to make the ROW visible as it swings around that "opening" on the hillside. Seems to follow around right along the hillside, keeping the grade constant. I would think any action in the future could be done by rail vehicles. From bringing up machinery and other material to do what's necessary to close that massive gap....Piling, etc.....
You are correct, Quentin. The grade curves around through that shaded area. The circled area IS the "big" washout.
Something else no one has mentioned yet is that the washout extends outside of Norfolk Southern's right-of-way. Guess who owns the adjoining property?
Pacolet Area Conservancy
That opens up a big can of legal worms, if that land is protected by a conservation easement. . . . Not sure what rights Norfolk Southern has to maintain and repair their right-of-way, etc.
It just keeps getting worse and worse.
I am wondering if any of the hesitency to reopen the grade isn't because of the size of today's equpment and motive power. I mean look at what was when built and compare it to the monster locomotives and oversize cars of today. A train from before 1960 is so much smaller; the grade wasn't built with today's engines and cars in mind.
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What would be the business advantage of opening it?
henry6 I am wondering if any of the hesitency to reopen the grade isn't because of the size of today's equpment and motive power. I mean look at what was when built and compare it to the monster locomotives and oversize cars of today. A train from before 1960 is so much smaller; the grade wasn't built with today's engines and cars in mind.
I would think that it could be the exact opposite. Today's newer, AC, high adhesion locomotives would function on the grade much better than Steam or older Diesels did.
Also, for unit trains, there are new technologies like electronic braking that could make travel up and down the grade much safer.
Bucyrus What would be the business advantage of opening it?
I guess it just depends on what freight that NS is moving or what contracts they could have in the works. They currently don't have a direct route from the Cincinnati corridor to the port of Charleston.
I have heard rumors of Coal, Amtrak (whole different can of worms), automobiles, grain trains for ethanol, etc...
It could also be tied into the future deepening of Charleston Harbor project or even to the widening of the Panama Canal. I don't know if there is freight that comes or goes from Asia that is currently more economically feasible to be shipped to the West coast, that may shipped to the Eastern ports once the wider canal is opened. Again I'm just speculating.
....If there is a situation where the "neighbors"...., the Conservancy Group, would not want the lower part of the washout messed with....Just from a layman's point of view....I would think a moderate size pile driver could be brought up the grade to the site and drive temp piling right at the track to put it back to it's "normal" location, elevation, etc....and stablize it so equipment could then drive piling on the low side adequate to reinstall proper fill material back up to the track level for it's support.
The 2012 schedule for the NS Exhibit car is out, and they have a stop scheduled for Landrum, SC on December 6. Here is the link: http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2012/ns_exhibit_car.html
The in service tracks don't currently go to Landrum, the line is cut before town right by Capps lumber. I guess NS could set up the car on the side of the road before town in a really awkward location (where patrons would have to walk up a slight embankment to get to the car) or NS is planning on reconnecting the rails and having the exhibit car park at the Landrum depot that is currently being renovated. Seems like a lot of trouble just to get an Exhibit car to Landrum....
Bunn19 The 2012 schedule for the NS Exhibit car is out, and they have a stop scheduled for Landrum, SC on December 6. Here is the link: http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2012/ns_exhibit_car.html The in service tracks don't currently go to Landrum, the line is cut before town right by Capps lumber. I guess NS could set up the car on the side of the road before town in a really awkward location (where patrons would have to walk up a slight embankment to get to the car) or NS is planning on reconnecting the rails and having the exhibit car park at the Landrum depot that is currently being renovated. Seems like a lot of trouble just to get an Exhibit car to Landrum....
From the NS Exhibit Car Schedule:
Seems that in the last three months of 2012 the Exhibit Car is all around Western North Carolina. [ the ability to travel over 'The Grade' would sure be convenient]...
Just Sayin'.
Very interesting indeed. . . .
Hopefully we'll get some "inside" information soon. December isn't THAT far away!
I can't confirm this, it could be just another rumor that needs checkin, it was posted on my youtube video.
"NS is in fact in the process of reopening Saluda. as a matter of fact work to replace track has already begun down in Landrum. track gangs have arrived in Asheville preparing their stuff to head up the W line. and a ballast train was spotted on the W line a few weeks ago. i have inside info from some people at NS here in Asheville and they have also confirmed that a Conductor/Engineer certified to run on Saluda has been brought in to train other crews." a quote from tftrainman on youtube. from the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Ymlo944-c&lc=tfARjDDumrBVA9hz0CyAVjTGS6-qbERgLJ6RzNZxdBo&lch=email&feature=em-comment_received.
Let's get some conformation about Landrum and see fellas. Hope must stay alive.
Well, the rumors just keep rolling over time.....
Let's see if someone in the area can add to the info. And perhaps someone might have a "friend" in position to learn a bit more...
Keep trying.
Modelcar Well, the rumors just keep rolling over time..... Let's see if someone in the area can add to the info. And perhaps someone might have a "friend" in position to learn a bit more... Keep trying.
Just echo Quentin's sentiments!
Sure would be the highlight of my next trip to Salisbury.
Hopefully, some of the local WNC Posters can confirm the info! Sure would be great to see traffic on the W Line again, I think the new AC engines would be made for that job over Saluda.
There was another post on the youtube video in the past few hours by the original poster who was mentioned above:
"@whiteyc123, yes from the sources im getting it from it is pretty accurate. ive got a freind who is a conductor in asheville and i know about every other person down there. theyve dropped new ties in Flat Rock not too long ago, track gangs are here in asheville preparing to start work. form what i know the work has already began in Landrum with T&S work. im going to ride down there probably monday and check it out to see exactly what stuff is being done at the moment."
Curiosity got the best of me, and I rode up to Landrum this afternoon. I didn't see any new work going on or that had taken place on the closed side of the cut off rails.
However, it did look like all of the crossing signals on the route from Hayne up to Landrum that I passed had been replaced with the newer type (larger bulbs/lenses).
I didn't have chance to make it up to Flat Rock to see what's going on up there.
I'm glad you're in the area to check things out, Bunn19. The soonest I'll be back that way is the end of July, and I can't guarantee I'll have the time to do any exploring.
I did get a chance to explore on June 16th. After a decade, I finally went and saw where the rails are cut in Zirconia/Flat Rock. I took one picture at the second crossing north/west of the cut on the active portion of the line.
It looked as if some ballast had been added, based on the different color and it sitting on the ties in the distance. I also wonder what the black box is to the left?
Other than that, I saw nothing of significance, which is why I didn't bother sharing before now.
I also mentioned to my grandmother about the recent happenings and the exhibit car coming to Landrum. She told me a local "know-it-all" said the line would be reopened within a decade, but they were going to use a new, more powerful non-diesel locomotive. You see why I take the rumors from around there with a grain of salt.
And the NS crew out of Asheville has been saying Saluda will reopen since it closed.
Here is a picture of the work train that went to Landrum parked outside Spartanburg back in March.
We will continue to wait and see. "I'll believe it when I see it."
Good report.
And those facilities on the work train look pretty decent for the fellows.
Modelcar Good report. And those facilities on the work train look pretty decent for the fellows.
I'm Trying to be positive about this recent information, We can only hope that the activity increases, and results become more evident.
It certainly will be an interesting process to follow.
I caught a snippet about the South Carolina Ports Authority pursuing an inland port in Greer, between Greenville and Spartanburg, so I did some research. Norfolk Southern will be the rail provider, and the inland port will be located on the NS main line and part of the Crescent Corridor. Service from Charleston will be on the W-Line from Columbia to Spartanburg (which continues to Asheville via Saluda).
The South Carolina Legislature has committed $300 million to fund the deepening of Charleston Harbor to 50 feet. The Army Corps of Engineers has estimated the feasibility study will be finalized sooner than expected, possibly leading to project completion by the end of the decade. The project has also been declared one of the nation's seven top infrastructure priorities.
I wonder if NS is thinking they need the W-Line operational to Asheville to accommodate an anticipated increase in service?
....That's great. Keep snooping. Doubt if it will ever get back to operation in my time, but if it does open again, that will thrill up and coming railfans.
I found another washout, just east of Tryon. I'm surprised I did not find this before now. Looking at some older imagery, it appears to have occurred between 2003 and 2006 (likely 2004, when the other washout occurred due to tropical storms).
Bing Maps - Oblique View
Dang, just read this whole thread from the dead. I'd drive down to watch the action climbin the hill. They'd need to throw a few SD80MACs on there and hold on!
Adrianspeeder
USAF TSgt C-17 Aircraft Maintenance Flying Crew Chief & Flightline Avionics Craftsman
dubch87 I found another washout, just east of Tryon. I'm surprised I did not find this before now. Looking at some older imagery, it appears to have occurred between 2003 and 2006 (likely 2004, when the other washout occurred due to tropical storms). Bing Maps - Oblique View
We're trying to plan a trip for the next year to Salisbury to visit. A side trip through Saluda would be 'icing on the cake'. Please, you local fans, in WNC. Keep us posted around here. Thanks in advance for the information you've been providing!
On a totally different note than the ever so depressing Saluda Grade since it's going nowhere, WNC has more rail future hopes once again with the GSMR! Steam shall return in 2-3 years with the restoration of ex US-Army 2-8-0 #1702. Here's the article.
http://www.smokymountainnews.com/news/item/8800-swain-seals-deal-to-bring-steam-engine-to-great-smoky-mountain-railroad-lines
Just thought i'd bring some more positive views on railroad preservation to this article, plus I'm assuming everyone in this forum has some sort of ties to the area and maybe have even ridden behind steam on the GSMR. I recommend it highly, and hope everyone will support this operation.
Now, if only Saluda was open...WNC would once again be a railfan haven.. maybe someday!
Everyone have a wonderful evening.
Hendersonville Railfan On a totally different note than the ever so depressing Saluda Grade since it's going nowhere, WNC has more rail future hopes once again with the GSMR! Steam shall return in 2-3 years with the restoration of ex US-Army 2-8-0 #1702. Here's the article. http://www.smokymountainnews.com/news/item/8800-swain-seals-deal-to-bring-steam-engine-to-great-smoky-mountain-railroad-lines Just thought i'd bring some more positive views on railroad preservation to this article, plus I'm assuming everyone in this forum has some sort of ties to the area and maybe have even ridden behind steam on the GSMR. I recommend it highly, and hope everyone will support this operation. Now, if only Saluda was open...WNC would once again be a railfan haven.. maybe someday! Everyone have a wonderful evening.
Thanks for the update Hendersonville Railfan!
Nuice to see some movement on the GSMR. I was able to ride there some time past, and it was an interesting trip with their diesel power. Having a steam engine will make it that much more enjoyable.
Has there been anymore on the earlier reorts of NS MOW Crews down around the Landrum area ? The NS Display Car is still on the schedule for the NS Exhibit Car still shows a stop this Fall in Landrum.
Here is a partial list of upcoming stops in WNC:
My thought is that having "The Grade" open would solve some of their logistical movement issues for this Exhibit Car, and some other traffic...
samfp1943 Has there been anymore on the earlier reorts of NS MOW Crews down around the Landrum area ? The NS Display Car is still on the schedule for the NS Exhibit Car still shows a stop this Fall in Landrum. Here is a partial list of upcoming stops in WNC: Sept. 29: Old Fort, N.C., 100th Anniversary Celebration of Andrews Geyser and Old Fort Railroad Oct. 13: Hendersonville, N.C., 5th Annual Bazaar Oct. 20: Oliver Springs, Tenn., October Sky Fall Festival Dec. 1: Hopkins, S.C., Annual Holiday Taste & Tour - Lower Richland Heritage Corridor Dec. 6: Landrum, S.C., Landrum Christmas Stroll/Parade Here is the website URL:@ http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2012/ns_exhibit_car.html My thought is that having "The Grade" open would solve some of their logistical movement issues for this Exhibit Car, and some other traffic...
I haven't been to the area recently and won't be for another month at the soonest.
During the summer, I looked at the MOW work around Landrum and saw no signs of major rehabilitation, just maintenance.
This late in the year, it will be impossible to have the W-Line open by the first week of December. No one knows yet if the Exhibit Car will actually be taken all the way to Landrum. We should assume so, since it'd be pointless otherwise. This means reconnecting the line. Reconnecting the line for the sake of getting an Exhibit Car to a small-town festival seems like a lot of work for NS, so they likely have an ulterior motive.
My guess is if they DO reconnect the line, they are going to perform some extensive MOW work below Saluda that requires an actual MOW train instead of MOW trucks. I have mentioned in previous posts about two smaller washouts north and south of Tryon, in addition to the large washout east of Melrose. It is possible they have decided to address that washout as well. All of this must be done before a geometry/research train can go through to determine the condition of the line after eleven years of limited maintenance and mother nature's fury.
I am assuming this can all be done without reactivating the line by flagging the few grade crossings. They may go ahead and bring those back to standard as well.
Who knows, this is all speculation. However, I think NS is planning something. As many of us saw today, NSC's 3Q outlook expects a (continued) decline in coal shipments, and an increase in intermodal. Those two shipments have been discussed frequently in this thread, from exporting coal via Charleston, to intermodal trains from Charleston to Knoxville and the Midwest.
NS likely finds the current economic outlook more favorable for reactivating the line than ever.
pretcho Hey guys! I've been following this thread for the past few months now, and just like everyone else, I have been wondering where the Exhibit Car will be located in Landrum. I decided to email Mr(s). Chapman and this is the response I recieved. Mr. Retcho: The Exhibit Car will be on the section of track in front of the Landrum rail depot, north side of Highway 176, approximately 300 linear feet from Highway 14. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me directly. Stacey Hugo Manager, Community Outreach Norfolk Southern Corporation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: Chapman, Robin C.Subject:Exhibit Car Robin,I am aware that the NS Exhibit Car will be in Landrum, SC on December 6th, 2012 for the Christmas parade; however, I am unaware of where the Exhibit Car will exactly be located in Landrum since the tracks are cut southeast of the town. Do you have any information about where exactly it will be located? Thank you for your time.Phillip Retcho I wonder how they are going to get it there...
Wow! That answers that! Thanks for taking the time to ask.
Upstate South Carolina and Western North Carolina locals . . . keep us posted!
Here is where the rails are split in Landrum, with Mimosa trees growing everywhere in May 2012.
Google Street View
So the location that Mr. Chapman described is in fact track West of the cut rails? It's been a month or so since I've been to Landurm, but I feel sure that the depot is a good bit (1/2mi. or so) track West of the cut in the rails.
Any more news on Saluda?
Yes, the location Norfolk Southern described in front of the Landrum Depot is on the inactive section of the W-Line. This means the dirt mound has to be removed and the rails connected to get the Exhibit Car there. It's really not that much work, but it is still $$$ out of NS's wallet just to have their Exhibit Car on display for one afternoon/evening in a very small town. The only "repair" I can think of is adding some ballast here.
Map
Luckily, the Google StreetView car went through Landrum in May 2012, shortly after the MOW work was completed on the W-Line south of Landrum. You can see one of the improved grade crossings here and some old cross-ties here. If you continue south, you can see other improved crossings. For comparison, this is what the first inactive crossing in Landrum looks like, with the dirt mound in the far distance.
Improving grade crossings is pretty standard maintenance. But, would NS do that much ballast and tie work just for what is now essentially a spur? Or is that even considered a lot of work?
I was over that way this weekend (sooner than I expected). The crossing lights are bagged, and the mound still in place. There are two months to go, and the required work would take less than a day. There are only two crossings the Exhibit Car will have to go through to get to the depot, which can easily be flagged. NS may simply move the mound a mile west and never reactivate the entire line. I do not know the regulations on active versus inactive rail lines.
I am still standing by my earlier statement that NS is reconnecting the line to do some heavy MOW. The number crunchers in NS management have likely figured that with the current damage to the ROW, if will cost x dollars to repair. If it remains neglected and worsens, then it will cost y dollars more in the future to make additional repairs. Some of those washed out sections are probably close to turning into WAY more work than NS wants to do. They would rather get it repaired now for "less" and have the line ready should the need for reactivation arise (which may be in their plans).
We have been waiting for over a decade, but this will be a long two months!
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