IMHO it is not the distance that is important but trip time. I cannot locate my SOU RR timetables but I would like a comparsion of the time it took the Carolina special to go from Danville, Ky - GSP and compare it to the times of the Crescent GSP - ATL + Royal Palm ATL - Danville. I would subrtact 30 minutes each for the run back times and terminal times for ATL & Chatanooga. Anybody have that info ?
ALSO construct the times GSP - Salisbury - Ashville ? vs GSP - Asheville ?
I would split the difference in times between Greenville and spartanburg which is 40 minutes so 20 minutes.
blue streak, is GSP Spartanburg? According to Amtrak, Spartanburg is SPB.
Johnny
Deggesty blue streak, is GSP Spartanburg? According to Amtrak, Spartanburg is SPB.
Thanks. From your overall question, I guessed Spartanburg to be the point. I set the following up this morning in Word Perfect so it would be ready (or almost ready) when I knew where you are going. Incidentally, I undertood you to mean Danville in Kentucky, and not Danville in Virginia,
August 1, 1954 Timetable
Danville-Spartanburg: 14:10 (less :20 in Somerset, :15 in Oakdale, :25 in Knoxville, :04 in Morristown, :20 in Asheville)
Spartanburg-Atlanta: 4:20 (less :10 in Greenville); arrive Atlanta 8:00
Atlanta-Danville: 8:45 (less :10 in Rome, :20 in Chattanooga, :05 in Oakdale, :10 in Somerset
Spartanburg-Salisbury: (Crescent) 2:30 (less :05 in Charlotte)
Salisbury-Asheville: (#11) 5:30, or :11 to Barber and then #21: 4:15 to Asheville
The July 10, 1949 timetable (just before it began running through Winston-Salem), the Asheville Special was given 4:50 to go from Salisbury to Asheville.
This afternoon, I add the following: the southbound Crescent is shown taking 45 minutes from Spartanburg to Greenville, and the northbound Crescent is shown taking 40 minutes Greenville to Spartanburg. I have no idea as to the exact location of the airport, but Spartanburg was at mp 452.6, Greer was at mp 471.0, and Greenville was at mp 484.1.
Peasant traveling
Deggesty August 1, 1954 Timetable Danville-Spartanburg: 14:10 (less :20 in Somerset, :15 in Oakdale, :25 in Knoxville, :04 in Morristown, :20 in Asheville) Spartanburg-Atlanta: 4:20 (less :10 in Greenville); arrive Atlanta 8:00 Atlanta-Danville: 8:45 (less :10 in Rome, :20 in Chattanooga, :05 in Oakdale, :10 in Somerset . I have no idea as to the exact location of the airport, but Spartanburg was at mp 452.6, Greer was at mp 471.0, and Greenville was at mp 484.1. Peasant traveling
. I have no idea as to the exact location of the airport, but Spartanburg was at mp 452.6, Greer was at mp 471.0, and Greenville was at mp 484.1.
Johnny; thanks from your times I will add it for us
danville - spartanburg --------- 14;10
spartanburg - GSP --------- ;25 Greer is about MP 471
One less crew change -------- - ;15
Take Morristown bypass ----- - ; 30
Grind up & down Saluda ----------- + ;10 == 14;30 ??
GSP - ATL -------- 4;00
ATL - Danville, Ky ---------- 8;45
add slower intermodal GSP - ATL ;30
No runs Howell - Terminal sta - ;30
No runs CITGO - CHA CHOO --------- - 30 == 12;15 ??
So we have a route that is ~ 2;00 less and will need less power )( extra SALUDA, Knoxville - Oakdale) This makes IMHO opening Saluda a non starter for intermodals to Cincinnati & west. That is a disappointment to me but I understand.
Interesting. I do question your 30 minutes saving by bypassing Morristown: New Line to Morristown is 3.4 miles, and Morristown to Roe Jct is 2.4 miles--a total of 5.8 miles. However, it is 3.0 miles from New Line to Roe Jct., so the actual distance is only 2.8 miles less. These numbers are from the Knoxville Division Timetable #65, dated 12 January 1958.
I just looked at the SPV map of Chattanooga, and if you could have a crew change at Citico Jct., and not have to go down to the yard, you save about 10 miles instead of 4.8 miles at yard speed. There is a convenient wye there, also, and you would not have to swap ends with the power.
I noticed that the south of end of DeButts Yard (formerly Citico Yard) is named Pratt, probably after I. L. Pratt, a former superintendent of the Chattanooga Terminal. I knew his brother in Reform, Alabama.
Deggesty Interesting. I do question your 30 minutes saving by bypassing Morristown: New Line to Morristown is 3.4 miles, and Morristown to Roe Jct is 2.4 miles--a total of 5.8 miles. However, it is 3.0 miles from New Line to Roe Jct., so the actual distance is only 2.8 miles less. These numbers are from the Knoxville Division Timetable #65, dated 12 January 1958.
Deggesty I just looked at the SPV map of Chattanooga, and if you could have a crew change at Citico Jct., and not have to go down to the yard, you save about 10 miles instead of 4.8 miles at yard speed. There is a convenient wye there, also, and you would not have to swap ends with the power. I noticed that the south of end of DeButts Yard (formerly Citico Yard) is named Pratt, probably after I. L. Pratt, a former superintendent of the Chattanooga Terminal. I knew his brother in Reform, Alabama.
Further information from various Southern ETT's (Chattanooga Terminal Joint Time Table #95, 12 January 1958; CNO&TP #62, 7 March 1965; Knoxville Division #65, 12 January 1958) (These were the first of each that came to hand as I was going through the stack).
5.6 miles from Citico Jct. (has the name been changed to Citgo?) to Terminal station; yard limits all the way. Also, yard limits from Williams (Ooltewah line) to Citico Jct.; 1.8 miles.
No yard limits indicated from Tenbridge to Citico Jct. Incidentally, Harriman Jct. (just south of Oakdale) is the point at which the Carolina Special numbers were changed from odd to even.
New Line to Morristown--five minutes for #28; Morristown to Roe Jct.--ten minutes for #28 (six minutes for #27); New Line to Roe Jct.--nine, ten, or eleven minutes for 2nd class trains (seven and eight minutes for westbound). There must have been quite a grade eastbound.
I rather imagine that the Roe Jct.-Morristown line was abandoned after there was no longer a passenger train to use it.
grandeman If anyone is interested in an update, I walked the line from Saluda to Melrose (and back) this afternoon. The grade is clear of overgrowth, deadfall, washouts, etc. The signal system is in rough shape and the entire line needs to be retied. I state that because of reports here that NS crews may have been in the area recently. No work appears to have been done. I did note a few spots within the first 1/2 to 1 mile of Saluda that had fresh survey tape nailed to crossties... Not sure what to make of that. The hike was great. This was my first look at this amazing piece of railroading history that I have heard about for years. It is impressive!
If anyone is interested in an update, I walked the line from Saluda to Melrose (and back) this afternoon. The grade is clear of overgrowth, deadfall, washouts, etc. The signal system is in rough shape and the entire line needs to be retied. I state that because of reports here that NS crews may have been in the area recently. No work appears to have been done. I did note a few spots within the first 1/2 to 1 mile of Saluda that had fresh survey tape nailed to crossties... Not sure what to make of that.
The hike was great. This was my first look at this amazing piece of railroading history that I have heard about for years. It is impressive!
Eric, I wish I knew you were going there! I'd give almost anything to get back up there and get some more video if they re-open the grade.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
blue streak 1 Deggesty August 1, 1954 Timetable Danville-Spartanburg: 14:10 (less :20 in Somerset, :15 in Oakdale, :25 in Knoxville, :04 in Morristown, :20 in Asheville) Spartanburg-Atlanta: 4:20 (less :10 in Greenville); arrive Atlanta 8:00 Atlanta-Danville: 8:45 (less :10 in Rome, :20 in Chattanooga, :05 in Oakdale, :10 in Somerset . I have no idea as to the exact location of the airport, but Spartanburg was at mp 452.6, Greer was at mp 471.0, and Greenville was at mp 484.1. Peasant traveling Johnny; thanks from your times I will add it for us danville - spartanburg --------- 14;10 spartanburg - GSP --------- ;25 Greer is about MP 471 One less crew change -------- - ;15 Take Morristown bypass ----- - ; 30 Grind up & down Saluda ----------- + ;10 == 14;30 ?? GSP - ATL -------- 4;00 ATL - Danville, Ky ---------- 8;45 add slower intermodal GSP - ATL ;30 No runs Howell - Terminal sta - ;30 No runs CITGO - CHA CHOO --------- - 30 == 12;15 ?? So we have a route that is ~ 2;00 less and will need less power )( extra SALUDA, Knoxville - Oakdale) This makes IMHO opening Saluda a non starter for intermodals to Cincinnati & west. That is a disappointment to me but I understand.
I didn't quite follow all the numbers here, but based on old timetables, Saluda will take much longer, despite being the shortest route?
Its hard to believe that it would take longer, considering how far out of the way it is to go to Salisbury and up the S line.
Thought I'd share a sort-of-not-really-related story.
Newfound Gap Rd. (U.S. 441) through Great Smoky Mountains National Park had a large washout during heavy rains in January of this year, taking out a 200 ft. section of road. A contract was awarded today for $3,989,890.00 to rebuild the road and stabilize the slope.
From what I've seen, I would estimate this washout is about four times the size of the one on the W-Line. The cost also includes rebuilding/paving the road, versus ballast, ties and rails. Still, I think it'd be fair to estimate the minimum cost of repairing the W-Line washout at $250,000-$500,000. That's a pretty good chunk of change for a line that didn't see enough service to remain open to begin with.
I think the only hope is if traffic increases enough to where they have no choice to reopen the line, but I dont see that happening anytime soon.
I just saw Track Geometry Train 905 heading towards Landrum on the W-line! I followed it from the Amtrak station to Sigsbee. Sorry, I would of chased it further, but I had to get to school! I have a few pictures (not good ones) but I can't figure out how to post them.
Interesting, the Geometry train was also on the W line on the NC side last week. I saw it heading south through Fletcher.
pretcho I just saw Track Geometry Train 905 heading towards Landrum on the W-line! I followed it from the Amtrak station to Sigsbee. Sorry, I would of chased it further, but I had to get to school! I have a few pictures (not good ones) but I can't figure out how to post them.
I imagine they are checking for any defects in the work they completed last winter/spring after going through all the weather extremes for a year. Someone with expertise in that field can chime in.
JohnJ Interesting, the Geometry train was also on the W line on the NC side last week. I saw it heading south through Fletcher.
Where exactly? Curious to know if they only checked as far as where they completed work last year (spur to coal plant, which is north of Fletcher), or if they continued to the cut east of Flat Rock.
I still wouldn't rule this out as only routine maintenance, but NS has shown a lot of interest in getting the W-Line improved over the past couple of years.
Has the section of track with the rails were moved laterally from track ahead and behind it been returned to normal? I think there was a pile of dirt on it or next to it too.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
[quote user="dubch87"]
[quote user="pretcho"]
"...I just saw Track Geometry Train 905 heading towards Landrum on the W-line! I followed it from the Amtrak station to Sigsbee. Sorry, I would of chased it further, but I had to get to school! I have a few pictures (not good ones) but I can't figure out how to post them..".
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JohnJ "...Interesting, the Geometry train was also on the W line on the NC side last week. I saw it heading south through Fletcher..."
"...Interesting, the Geometry train was also on the W line on the NC side last week. I saw it heading south through Fletcher..."
[quote/]
For a line that seems to go through periods of such and uncertain future..The "W' Line seems to manage a lot of interest ! The last time it was removed from the Employee TimeTables was in 2001, and before that it was IIRC about 1991. So here we are about 12 years in the future and it seems to be back on the railroads radar again? Its official status is that of having been 'railbanked' by Norfolk Southern. (Railbanked means not abandoned, but sort of mothballed for potential future use.)
For many around these Forums, there is interest; in what an operation it was, and the potential for more use, by current,modern equipment. Heavier locomotives, trains with electronic braking, distributed power; laying right in the heart of a route from Southeastern Seaports to the the Ohio and Midwest Region. I used to watch the KSC run trains north and south over Rich Mountain, admittedly, not nearly the grade of Saluda; nevertheless, a rulling grade that was an operational obstacle, and headache.
Some of the things that have been going on, concerning the W Line that have been reported and chronicled around here. Visit of the NS's Exhibit Car to Landrum. Scuttlebut among railroaders around Asheville that the company was talking about a reactivation of the W line between Asheville and Spartanburg, and the operation of one of the Ns Geometry Trains on both stub ends of the Saluda Grade. I guess speculation just is tantalizing as to what might take place?
It has been a real bonus to have some of the Western North Carolina Locals checking in around here to keep us posted on the local goings on.
Link to photo of SR 4501 on Saluda in summer 1972 (naked- No diesel assist!)
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=343084&nseq=2
I suppose the name of the place i saw it isn't Fletcher. Its Naples. Or is it Mountain Home? Right there behind the big shoe store after you cross the interstate heading South.
JohnJ I suppose the name of the place i saw it isn't Fletcher. Its Naples. Or is it Mountain Home? Right there behind the big shoe store after you cross the interstate heading South.
I don't want to crush any dreams, but the same research train was down here in Sylva on the T-line (Murphy Branch) just the day before.
Will do, this may just be routine, or not. I'll definately keep an eye out. I also saw the research train coming through arden (south of the power plant) about 3 or 4 months ago. It just seems odd that the research train would be on that line twice in 4 months since the line only sees one train daily.
How much traffic does that T line get past Canton anyway?
3 trains a week if business is good. During the summer traffic is a little less due to the propane facility not receiving tank cars.
Here is a quote by another forum member about what was seen today in Inman, SC, track East of the cut rails at Landrum:
"Late this morning I was at the W line railroad crossing at the asphalt plant about 2 miles east of Inman, S.C. There were NS security police and safety personnel stopping cars at the railroad crossing. They were handing out safety brochures warning motorist that train speeds would soon be increasing up to 50mph at the crossing. The safety guys said the rumor was the line is fixing to be re-opened to Asheville but they had not received any official word from NS. Of course, there is no reason for trains to speed through that crossing at 50mph since nothing is being switched at Inman except a small siding west of town, and then nothing west of there (Mascot, S.C) to Landrum, S.C. (Capps Lumber at Landrum quit shipping wood chips by rail about a year ago). 50mph is fast for any freight train in this region. Of course, as always, I'll believe the line is re-opened when I see it! However, it does raise the level of speculation up a notch! "
It sounds like NS is up to something, but like he says, until we see real evidence, we'll just have to wait and hope for the best....
I also saw this. On a Facebook Group I am a part of. Here is the quote: " NS officials were handing safety leaflets at grade crossings in Inman, SC today, stating that train speeds will soon be increasing to 50 mph on the W line. When asked why they said the rumor was that Saluda is going to be reopened." AND " I didn't get a flier. A good friend of mine who manages the Hub City RR museum stopped and talked to the NS police who were at the crossing. He introduced himself, asked the NS police what was going on and why the train speeds were increasing "up to 50 mph" when there are only a few small customers up the line. The NS official said that he was only told to come hand out the fliers but that the rumor that he had heard was that NS was going to reopen the line."
I don't know what this means, and Ill still believe it when i see it, but its positive news none the less.
I'll do my best to keep everyone on here posted.
And here I am getting ready to move to Hendersonville, This could be good!
Seriously? Flyers for 50 mph? No press releases or news media?
Not believing this for a second until I see pictures of this happening and a copy of the flyer.
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