Saluda Grade to reopen?

[samfp1943]

06/13/2020...Re: SALUDA GRADE.... There is a You Tube Video that has an excelent report on 'The Grade'. dates from about a year ago [Sept.9,2019] 

See linked @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAlK61l6yQI

It is a video mentioned by one of Jim Wrinn's blog columns about that same time frame. It features some technical data on the saluda grade, many photos from the operational era, and explanations of the'whys, and wherefores' for the existance of the Saluda Grade vs. other lcations in the Western North Carolina area.

   It features narrations by locals who are members of the Saluda Depot Museum, in Saluda.

From JimWrinn's colum

FTA:"...The other video offering is on your computer. A young Michigan filmmaker, Drayton Blackgrove, through his Delay in Block Productions, has started a series on abandoned railroads. His first subject is dear to my heart: Saluda grade in Western North Carolina..."

linked @ http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archive/2019/09/12/two-videos-you-need-to-see-country-music-and-saluda-grade.aspx

[Overmod]

BaltACD

I don't know if the SOU ever used LocoTrol on their operations on Saluda.

It seemed pretty clear to me that 13,000-ton unit coal trains would demand distributed power, and indeed the 'Saluda, Mountain of Challenge' training video from 1984 clearly covers the 'radio' operation at the time.  More modern versions of the technology would augment the 'uphill' part of the operation and probably at least facilitate safe downhill.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9IABM8UPplY

[GREG HODGES]

I've watched that NS training video a couple of times and admire how 5% grades were tackled over 35 yrs. ago.  Though NS had been in existance for 2 years at the time the film was made, the locomotives shown were still wearing their SR black and gold 'tuxedo' paint schemes.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

I wonder if one aspect of DPU operation would be the coupler strength.  The number of cars being pulled by the DPU would be limited to about 15 - 20 cars with the 250K couplers, or about 25 cars with the 350K couplers.  However, they could push many more cars since the couplers would be in compression.  Practical limit would be not too much 'buff' so as to push the cars near the DPU off the track in a sharp curve, or other bad train-track dynamics.

- PDN. 

[BaltACD]

Not a Saluda expert by any means, however, I think the primary tonnage was operted downgrad.  Coal loads downgrade, empty hoppers upgrade.

[Boyd]

If the tracks of the Saluda grade were ever abandoned I think that Salud's could be the first RR ROW ever turned into a ski hill! ⛷

[dubch87]

The thing about Saluda is that the trains were stopped more often than they were moving. I remember seeing trains stopped at Melrose, stopped at the crest, or being assembled at the top all of the time. Very rarely did you catch one on the move. It's amazing it stayed open as long as it did.

Downgrade required a stop at the crest to set retainers, then downhill at 8 mph, then stopping again at Melrose to turn the retainers. Upgrade required stopping at Melrose, disconnecting the first sixteen or so cars, pulling those upgrade, dropping off, then going back downhill to grab another set. Do that a few more times, put the train back together and you can keep going.

In the last few years, the uphill trains were mostly woodchips bound for the paper mill in Canton. There were still a few mixed freights up and down through the week. I think there was enough horsepower before the end that they could pull the empty coal hoppers up in one or two goes.

I don't recall there being any mid-train units during the 90's. Sometimes there were units at the end on the downgrade coal, and I think they were always manned helpers.

[Boyd]

Or make it the first mainline cog railway in the US. Imagine the sound the first time a locomotive jumped the cog. 

[batt21]

I have an old N&W training video (not the one on youtube) given to me by a retired conductor about how to operate on Saluda, it's awesome and thrilling at the same time, to imagine being an engineer or conductor getting a coal train up and down that grade, the heart pounding one must have felt running that route as well as the professionalism and pride doing something that's difficult to do, even if part of Saluda was opened, the history and reputation of Saluda would be great. 

[blue streak 1]

How did the passenger trains operate on the grade ?  Did the F units have dynamic brakes ?  Those were not very efficient ?  How many  F units and many passenger cars ?

[Overmod]

Boyd

Or make it the first mainline cog railway in the US. Imagine the sound the first time a locomotive jumped the cog. 

Nothing in this weight or momentum range would use a vertical cog or rack arrangement.  In all probability it would be transverse, with opposed cog or toothed wheels engaging with (probably substantial) pressure in balance across the rack-rail profile.  

Now you would want an emergency release of excessive load on the rack gear, and it would likely make one hell of an interesting noise if that happened, but it would be less likely, and better managed, than cogs lifting and stripping vertically...

[Deggesty]

blue streak 1

How did the passenger trains operate on the grade ?  Did the F units have dynamic brakes ?  Those were not very efficient ?  How many  F units and many passenger cars ?

 

I wish I could give you a full report on the train that I rode down from Asheville to Hayne and the one I rode back to Asheville in 1964, but I did not make notes on the equipment. I would say that there were two engines, an RPO, a baggage car, at least two coaches, and a 10-6 Pullman. I, a coach passenger, was sitting in a roomette talking with the conductor and the flagman as we went down slowly. Going back up was quite different, for a weed killer train had just come down, and the rails were wet--and our sanders were not working well. I had a round trip ticket to Spartanburg, but the conductor, knowing that I was going right back, recommended that I get off at Hayne, where the crews changed, so as to be sure that I would take the westbound (the trains (9, 10, 33, and 34 were scheduled to meet in Spartanburg).

[daveklepper]

thanks;  this gives us some idea

 

[Sunnyland]

i was in Saluda with friends in 2016 and no signs of anything being done. The tracks are still there but the signal lights at crossing have been covered.  Did not look bad there, but things I have read about the Grade and pics I have seen, I do not ever expect railroading to come back there. Looked like a brutal ROW and if they do need it for some unknown reason, I expect it will never see a train again. 

 

[tree68]

Sunnyland

...I expect it will never see a train again. 

Back when Class 1's were the size of today's regionals, a railroad might be stuck using a route because it was the only one they had.  

I would opine that today's availability of other routes, on the same railroad, diminishes that need.  That they haven't run traffic over the line in almost 20 years tends to confirm such a conclusion.

[Sunnyland]

I agree, tree 68, sounds like it was dangerous route and if they have an alternative, why not use it.  And some of today's employees are not up to the challengers that the old times did routinely.  A friend who is retired BNSF engineer, started with the Q, said it was time to retire  when the other guy in the cab learned how to drive a train on a simulator.  He had spent 3 years on the left side of cab learning how it all worked before he could even think about becoming an engineer. 

[MrBassman81]

Any news on Saluda? I was up there a few weeks back & it's a sad sight. 

[dubch87]

Two decades... pretty sure I read somewhere that the last freight ran on December 9, 2001.

And before anyone starts... it will never reopen.

[Backshop]

MrBassman81

Any news on Saluda? I was up there a few weeks back & it's a sad sight. 

 

Like Tree and Sunnyland said, why run on a dangerous, slow, limited capacity route when you have other options.  The purpose of a railroad is to make money, not keep railfans entertained.

[ns145]

dubch87

Two decades... pretty sure I read somewhere that the last freight ran on December 9, 2001.

And before anyone starts... it will never reopen.

[BaltACD]

ns145

 

dubch87

Two decades... pretty sure I read somewhere that the last freight ran on December 9, 2001.

And before anyone starts... it will never reopen. 

 

To date NS has not undertaken formal abandonment procedures and started to reclaim the track materials for scrap value.

[Backshop]

Maybe they've forgotten that it's there? With workforce turnover and transfers, the number of people that remember its operation is probably a small percentage.

[BaltACD]

Backshop

Maybe they've forgotten that it's there? With workforce turnover and transfers, the number of people that remember its operation is probably a small percentage.

I would venture EVERYBODY that operated Saluda in the past has retired.

[ns145]

Have no fear, Trip Optimizer and PTC will know just what to do!

[tree68]

I think I commented earlier that mergers and consolidations have allowed for other routing, avoiding the hassles of running the hill.

That leaves one possibility for keeping rail on the ROW having a "safety valve" should the other routes become a problem (ie, major, long term blockage of other routes).

After all, they already own it, and it has rail on it.

[Backshop]

I wonder if any maintenance at all has been done to it?  

[dubch87]

Saluda in the era of safety vests, PTC, precision scheduled railroading, and no coal… good luck with that.

The same washouts that have been there for 17+ years are still there. It would cost millions of dollars and take months to reopen the line. Likely no one working for the railroad now knows how to run a train on the mountain and it would take months to train and certify.

Norfolk Southern sold the W-Line from Asheville to Flat Rock to WATCO. They have since down-graded the S-Line through Asheville and pulled through freights. The railbanked section of the W-Line is twenty miles of mountainous line with no industry to serve. Intermodal can take other routes that are longer but faster.

There is still occasional maintenance, but much less now than in years past. The line stayed in pretty good shape (except for the washouts) up until NS sold to WATCO in 2014. It’s still not bad, considering the length of time that has passed and the warm, wet climate being very conducive for vegetative growth. Every now and then a crew will come in and spray herbicide on a section. My only guess as to why they still bother is because they’re required to maintain the right-of-way to some degree due to the lease they have with AT&T for their fiber optic line that shares the RoW.

It would likely cost more to go in and remove the tracks than the scrap could be sold for. Access is pretty limited between Saluda and Tryon.

Google Street View from this year:

Zirconia https://goo.gl/maps/eBxH29Cti9TLHi43A

Saluda 1 https://goo.gl/maps/Z67z1WLM1yUMZry68

Saluda 2 https://goo.gl/maps/L62UrndcGqkzxq2GA

Saluda 3 https://goo.gl/maps/Kfi3ajLvf4Nc59rh8

Landrum 1 https://goo.gl/maps/q5XQdF7y3FirSbhd8

Landrum 2 https://goo.gl/maps/hVhkAmVZWrA2CurT9

 

[YoHo1975]

The fiber lease is probably the real reason it hasn't been fiber banked or abandoned.

[daveklepper]

DUBCH87's analysis makes sense, except for one point:

There  are films and videos detailing the safe operation of the grade--  with enough detail to implement a rapid training program, possibly just a few days or week, if necessary.

[Psychot]

I wish I had the opportunity to see trains roll through Saluda. It must have been quite an experience with the rail line up high paralleling the Main Street. As it is now, it's just depressing, though the museum is worth seeing.