And we have managers that think they're the "core" of railroading and think of us as a bunch of money-grubbing switch monkeys. We have managers that close smaller yards and expect a local crew to be able to serve 4-6 industries 50-100 miles away every day. Or they eliminate a brakeman from a job, and now it takes 2 crews and 4 people to work the same train it used to take 3 people. Just open your pockets and let the RR fill em is what the old timers always say.
A good crew IS indispensable. And yes, there are a lot of idiots in management just as their are idiot switch monkeys.
Bagehot What has appeared on this thread is the apparently immortal tension between Management and the Brotherhoods -- certain classes of workers who always saw themselves as the indispensible "core" of railroading, morally superior to and at the explicit denigration of all other "railroaders", and especially management which was "always filled with complete idiots". Just seeing the attitude rear its ugly head once again is, for me, a throwback to darker times when the Brotherhoods extracted from railroads excess wages just as the UAW does from its industry today and kept the railroad industry thoroughly destitute until the bankruptcies of the 1970s finally shattered their power and rationalized the pay scales of the industry. The "attitude" nearly destroyed this industry once, and the idea that one particular skill set is a template for all of railroading is not just naive ... -- Bagehot
What has appeared on this thread is the apparently immortal tension between Management and the Brotherhoods -- certain classes of workers who always saw themselves as the indispensible "core" of railroading, morally superior to and at the explicit denigration of all other "railroaders", and especially management which was "always filled with complete idiots". Just seeing the attitude rear its ugly head once again is, for me, a throwback to darker times when the Brotherhoods extracted from railroads excess wages just as the UAW does from its industry today and kept the railroad industry thoroughly destitute until the bankruptcies of the 1970s finally shattered their power and rationalized the pay scales of the industry.
The "attitude" nearly destroyed this industry once, and the idea that one particular skill set is a template for all of railroading is not just naive ...
-- Bagehot
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I brought the point up because the generic term manager was being thrown around earlier. I consider everything from TM on up to be a manager. In fact, the TMs have a very vital part of "running the railroad".
Bagehot I'm not sure what the point is here. Nobody said that a trainmaster shouldn't know how to run trains. It's not the same thing as "running a railroad" or running the finance/accounting department, law department, engineering department, sales, traffic, stores, shops, MOW, or any other important function of the railroad. I am both intrigued and appalled that, insofar as this thread goes, when someone says "skill" the posters forget 85% of the people that work for railroads -- including the ones that actually run the railroads. I understand that railfans don't go around looking for the accountants or marketing guys to photograph, but that doesn't mean that what they photograph is all there is to railroading. -- Bagehot
I'm not sure what the point is here. Nobody said that a trainmaster shouldn't know how to run trains. It's not the same thing as "running a railroad" or running the finance/accounting department, law department, engineering department, sales, traffic, stores, shops, MOW, or any other important function of the railroad.
I am both intrigued and appalled that, insofar as this thread goes, when someone says "skill" the posters forget 85% of the people that work for railroads -- including the ones that actually run the railroads.
I understand that railfans don't go around looking for the accountants or marketing guys to photograph, but that doesn't mean that what they photograph is all there is to railroading.
selector After all this time, and some nifty commentary, I'm still not sure I appreciate the premise stated at the outset...presumably set off by a series of inane, insensitive, obtuse, naive, or simply stupid questioners. What has happened over the past two to twelve weeks that has made this an issue? -Crandell
After all this time, and some nifty commentary, I'm still not sure I appreciate the premise stated at the outset...presumably set off by a series of inane, insensitive, obtuse, naive, or simply stupid questioners.
What has happened over the past two to twelve weeks that has made this an issue?
-Crandell
I don’t recall even one question that would fit that characterization let alone a whole series of them.
choochoobuff I think that we have to remember a few things. First of all not everyone has intimate knowledge of railroading and the skill set it takes to be a railroader.
I think that we have to remember a few things. First of all not everyone has intimate knowledge of railroading and the skill set it takes to be a railroader.
I'm not sure about the "we" part, but one thing "we" need to remember is this: there is no one "skill set" to be "a railroader". There are hundreds.
zugmannAs far as skills - there's a difference between the guy running the show int eh glass tower and the trainmaster looking over 20 crews. That trainmaster is a lot more effective if he had some experience.
I think that we have to remember a few things. First of all not everyone has intimate knowledge of railroading and the skill set it takes to be a railroader. Rail jobs are not as plentiful as they once were and the good folks that worked it in its hey day are at ages in which they are becoming fewer and fewer. I really don't think that any one believes that railroading is easy or not a skill. How many people would like to think that they are a carpenter or a plumber, when all they know is what they see on HGTV. This is really a symbiotic relationship, new folks, like me come here to learn. I have loved trains my whole life, and I don't know a darn thing about railroading, except what I have learned here. You guys have knowledge and possibly a family history of railroading and as such have something to give. We are the apprentice and you guys are the master, so to speak. Without us would you not become bored?
New ideas are not being ignored, but there is no money to implement them. The price tag for most of these "improvements" is about 10000x what the railroad is worth. There is no justification to the stockholders to even fathom spending that kind of money on things like magnetic levitation.
As far as skills - there's a difference between the guy running the show int eh glass tower and the trainmaster looking over 20 crews. That trainmaster is a lot more effective if he had some experience.
Ulrich Even in this day and age you've got top brass who worked their way up. Look at E Hunter Harrison of CN for example..started out with the Frisco and worked his way up. Going back a few years you've got Buck Crump (CPR), and Al Perlman (WP, DRGW, NYC) and probably quite a few more. JJ Hill, mentioned above, is probably the best example of someone who understood the biz from the ground up.
Even in this day and age you've got top brass who worked their way up. Look at E Hunter Harrison of CN for example..started out with the Frisco and worked his way up. Going back a few years you've got Buck Crump (CPR), and Al Perlman (WP, DRGW, NYC) and probably quite a few more. JJ Hill, mentioned above, is probably the best example of someone who understood the biz from the ground up.
"Working your way up ..." is far cry from complaining that "Sadly, there are guys running todays railroads who never lined a switch, pulled a pin, tied a hand brake, or set up the dynamic brakes on a locomotive...never sweated so bad their lips chapped and never felt the rush of being in control of all of the train."
As I mentioned, setting a criteria for everyone's skillsets by one particular person, who apparently doesn't like his supervisor, and judges quite critically anyone who doesn't have his particular skillsets, is not just unjustifiably arrogant, but plainly out of touch with railroading as an industry. And, I do think it is needlessly offensive to have some odd need to denigratre the skillsets of others -- especially those who actually did "work their way up" -- in order to elevate the relevance of your own. I just don't see the point of doing it.
"People with skill" at "running" railroads do, in fact, require different skillsets than having chapped lips. And in your post, why you might think that "lining a switch, pulling a pin, tying a handbrake or setting up dynamic brakes" represents a "bottom" to work your way up from would, I am sure, irritate that poster no end. But it is interesting that you see it that way. I don't. They represent an important skillset. I disagree that they necessarily have usefulness in "running" a railroad, and with the typical "labor" attitude that all the supervisors are idiots while all the geniuses somehow remain at the "bottom" -- wherever that is.
Your list is a good example. Hunter Harrison started as an oiler in a car shop, not a freight yard, and he did that while obtaining a college degree. Al Perlman got his MIT degree, and then worked on a summer track crew while getting his Master's degree at Harvard. Buck Crump couldn't stand being a laborer and went off to get a degree from Purdue, then a doctorate in engineering, and a law degree to boot.
Jim Hill is a very good example of my point. He was a coal merchant. He became a railroad VP as the result of an investment decision. He never worked a day in his life "pulling pins" or pounding spikes. You think he "knew" railroading from the ground up. Well, between he and Harriman, they sure put together better systems than the "railroaders". Not that the point would be lost on you, but notwithstanding Hill's lack of the necessary chapped lips, his lack of the skillset deemed "sad" on this thread perhaps opened his eyes to the possibilities of railroading that the chapped-lipped veterans could not see. The history of his railroad seems to suggest as much.
I think you altered my point. I did not suggest that there was no merit to "working the way up." Where else would you start?
My objection was to the specific comment that only if you "worked your way up" from the poster's own preferred skill sets would he have any confidence in who was "running the railroad" even though he apparently has no other personal skill sets to offer as a standard of the comparison to the skill sets of other railroaders he so casually derides.
And that is just not true and, as I stated, its a good thing since the comment necessarily derides the many skillsets, including the advanced education of the sort obtained by the executives you listed -- Perlman, Harrison, and Crump -- none of whom had ever "pulled a pin.' Whether that is arguably "sad", or a testament to necessity of other skillsets in running a railroad, the reader can probably conclude on their own.
I think the point is that "people with skill" can be respected for whatever their skill is, and railroading takes a very broad spectrum of skills to actually make one work.
henry6 Bucyrus henry6But by attrition it takes a long time and too much of the old stuff thus lingers too long. Can you give us some examples of what has lingered too long? Your's is a loaded question and the answer(s) is (are) just as loaded because technology, practices, and politics are included. But I bet you know that.
Bucyrus henry6But by attrition it takes a long time and too much of the old stuff thus lingers too long. Can you give us some examples of what has lingered too long?
henry6But by attrition it takes a long time and too much of the old stuff thus lingers too long.
Can you give us some examples of what has lingered too long?
Your's is a loaded question and the answer(s) is (are) just as loaded because technology, practices, and politics are included. But I bet you know that.
You’re the one who accused the industry of failing to replace existing practice with something better. Then I asked you to give an example of what could be replaced with something better, and you say that I am asking a loaded question. If that seems like a loaded question, your premise about the industry failing to modernize must be on rather thin ice.
It seems to me that this thread, like so many others, has gotten way off topic. I've quoted from the original message in hopes of refocusing on the original subject.
henry6 Am I the only one amazed at the inability of today's railfans to grasp the fact that doing railroad jobs take skill and know how? . . . . . Time and time again on these and other railfan pages there are questions and statements about "how do they know how to..." when it comes to running a train or doing other railroad jobs. . . . . . Or is it just me? I cringe when I see questions like how did or does an engineer know how fast to run, how to run in tandem or as double header, etc. . . . . . Or have we as railfans failed to communicate with the right tools to the newer railfans what has transpired up to now?
Am I the only one amazed at the inability of today's railfans to grasp the fact that doing railroad jobs take skill and know how? . . . . . Time and time again on these and other railfan pages there are questions and statements about "how do they know how to..." when it comes to running a train or doing other railroad jobs. . . . . . Or is it just me? I cringe when I see questions like how did or does an engineer know how fast to run, how to run in tandem or as double header, etc. . . . . . Or have we as railfans failed to communicate with the right tools to the newer railfans what has transpired up to now?
I don't think today's railfans are much different than those of earlier times. We all started out with zero knowledge and learned by doing, by reading, by listening, by asking questions, or some combination thereof. Forum posters and readers range from those with 40+ years railroad experience to those who have just taken up railfanning and never have and never will work for a railroad. The real beauty of these forums is the willingness of those who have experience to share their knowledge with others. It would be tragic if we do or say anything to discourage anyone from asking a question no matter how elementary it may seem to be to some of us.
Mark
New ideas are indeed being ignored. Positive train separation using Global Positioning Systems was delayed until there was a tragedy. System-wide electronically controlled pneumatic brakes will also be a long time coming for short-term economic reasons.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
Maglev It is my understanding that a German study in the 19th century proved that, between 3 ft. 6 in. and about eight feet, track gauge did not make a difference.
Its now over a hundred years later, Maybe the topic should be revisited. Or we should look at 10 or 12 ft guages?
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Anyway, lets start with technology. Magnetic Levitation as promoted by MagLev is one idea as is widening the guage of the track as I mentioned which could lead to higher and wider units . Propulsion is a wide open topic from on board to elctrical sources (wire, yes; coal, oil, gas, methane, nuclear, wind, water, tidal wave, unknown generation). As we are experiencing today, train control via GPS, etc. which while a long time available, is only now being adopted by force (be it political or public relations or absolute acknowledgement that a safely operated railroad is a productive railroad and a productive railroad is a money earning railroad). Away from technology is manpower: we are still experiencing the better use of man power with reduced crews and cross crafting, and more will come. Most important latent problem that has lingered long past its time is the results of human fatigueon the individual and thus on the system. Lets just identifiy the problems and needs and not get into the discussion of solutions here; save it for another day under a different topic. And lets's leave political agendas out of it if for only narrowing the specific railroad topic rather than the larger and more general society.
It is my understanding that a German study in the 19th century proved that, between 3 ft. 6 in. and about eight feet, track gauge did not make a difference.
zugmann The railroad has been at this for awhile now. Every "new idea" that comes down the pipe has probably been done before, and failed. In most places, the operating ways have found their own level. Until some new TM straight out of cluelessville comes with big plans to change everything. Yeah... he usually gives up and hits the bottle in a month.
The railroad has been at this for awhile now. Every "new idea" that comes down the pipe has probably been done before, and failed. In most places, the operating ways have found their own level. Until some new TM straight out of cluelessville comes with big plans to change everything. Yeah... he usually gives up and hits the bottle in a month.
As I said elsewhere, I don't think the potential of the railroad with a 4ft 8 and a half inch guage has been fully realized. However, there are other things on the horizon including magnetic levitation which may be a total replacement or just a complimentary or supplimentary technology to what we have. Likewise, to be higher, wider, and heavier, a six or eight foot guage might have to be adopted; again for all or some applications. But there has to be open minds inside and outside the industry for anything to happen. Stagnation comes from complacency, a comfort with the status quo. Old managers will move out and new and younger ones with new and different ideas will come along. But by attrition it takes a long time and too much of the old stuff thus lingers too long.
Maglev "A wise man in Chicago once remarked, Railroading has it's own reality, separate from the rest of todays world." So this means that railroads can ignore a potential revolutionary new idea. Every field of endeavor acts as if it is isolated. So when someone comes along with a new idea, the response is "prove it," yet such proof is invariably "beyond the scope" of the isolated field. And the person with the new idea lacks credibility from all those who are "experts."
"A wise man in Chicago once remarked, Railroading has it's own reality, separate from the rest of todays world."
So this means that railroads can ignore a potential revolutionary new idea. Every field of endeavor acts as if it is isolated. So when someone comes along with a new idea, the response is "prove it," yet such proof is invariably "beyond the scope" of the isolated field. And the person with the new idea lacks credibility from all those who are "experts."
Can you point out a revolutionary new idea that railroads are ignoring?
CSSHEGEWISCH The only stupid questions are the ones that you don't ask.
The only stupid questions are the ones that you don't ask.
Obviously, you've never been to a City Hall news conference.
(a bit if operator error there...)
I had asked Dr. Lopes if she felt nuclear fusion might explain mysteries of volcanism in places like Mars and Enceladus.
This has a LOT to do with railroads, because they haul coal; exploitation of natural nuclear fusion might dramatically alter demand for coal. It might provide electricity for high-speed passenger trains.
_______________________
*The book is co-authored and illustrated by Michael Carroll; forward by Arthur C. Clarke; Alien Volcanoes; 2008: Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 152 pages.
Recently, I received the email response "...I am not an expert in this particular area..." from Dr. Rosaly Lopes (Principal Scientist and Cassini RADAR Investigation Scientist, JPL). Dr Lopes recently co-authored a book on volcanoes* throughout the solar system.
RRKen [clip] A wise man in Chicago once remarked, Railroading has it's own reality, separate from the rest of todays world.
RRKen - Hey thanks, good quote - that kind of made my day !
- Paul North.
Ed:Very interesting comments of your supers. Perhaps the BoD will learn from past experiences.
One of my customers (truckload trucking company) is second generation in the business. His father is well in his 70's, perhaps close to 80 and is still there daily. My customer will often "take a load" as his form of travel to distant terminals. He understands the problems and issues of not only his company, but also his drivers.
One of the issues of the business world the past couple of decades has been the desire to create massive personal wealth quickly at the top. There seems to be a tendancy to hire CEO's based on their CEO experience rather than their industry or internal experience. Coupled with heavy stock options and the need to hit the numbers, issues develop. Sometimes these issues have severe macro economic effects.
On an aside...why are all the editing and selectivity by moderators being done? This seems to be a pretty tame forum these days. Boring, but tame.
ed
Henry --
The only person who took my fusion idea seriously was the late Honorable U. S. Rep. Patsy T. Mink. After 9-11, I started asking her security questions. She died before geting answers to me.
Phillip Bose
Olga, WA
Amen to that Ed......several years ago,in fact during the meltdown,I had a newly minted trainmaster try to tell that stopping a train with dynamics isthe rule,and that I was breaking the rules in the terminal by doing so. I told him that if you were REALLY a railroader,you know the rule,but you also know WHEN to not apply the rule. The location was Tower 26 and I was on a westbound heading up towards the Rabbit..I figure you know why I did what I did just by the location....
Two quick and insulting questions/instructions I bet you get Maglev, because I know I get them: "Show so and so what you do so he can do your job next week" and "We want you to address the group so you can share your knowledge and experience."
In an edit here, I will add that the inference or attitude of those giving such instructions is something to the effect..."we want you to tell us everything you know in ten minutes" and not one of respect for what you know and have accomplished. And that I think this is the crux of what I have been talking about: respect for skill and knowledge which has not only been acquired, but practiced and honed to perfection or success. Like if everyone stood close to you whatever it is you know or have will rub off on all and they'll be as good at it as you are.
Normally I would not respond to this, simply because it looks a lot like "bait" to fuel an argument...
But if your head honcho already has the institutional knowledge, earned by doing the work in real life...then problems get solved quicker.
No need to hire a consultant...simply state the problem, and he already understands what you're talking about.
It can affect the decision making process...he can see short cuts and improvements in real time, better see and grasp the projected results from a capitol improvement project simply because he has been there and done that...un necessary things and projects don't see the light of day.
In the time I have been here, we have gone through 4 Superintendents, two who worked their way up, and two hired "off the street"
The first guy I worked for, Jack Jenkins, took the PTRA from a small, inefficient terminal railroad shedding customers right and left, using rent a wrecks or shop dogs for motive power to a Harriman Award winning Class 3, owners of 25 then state of the art road switchers, with yard dwell times cut in some instances by 50%, old customers coming back, and new customers relocating on our line simply because we could and did offer them what they wanted and needed.
He started out his railroad career as a brakeman on the SP, ended up being the SP Southern Division Superintendent, and finished out his career here.
Because he was a railroader, you could approach him with any problem, be it a hard to line switch to a service problem to a customer request, and he had an answer...not always the answer you were looking for, but an honest answer.
After he retired, we ended up with a professional manager who had come from a major retail company, I had to explain what pulling a pin meant to him....and the physical plant went down the tubes...because he failed to understand that even something as simple as the rocks we have to walk on are really tools, not just rock, and if you have the right tools, you do a better job...but slag is cheaper than rock, so several projects were ballasted with slag, which resulted in a huge up swing of personal injuries, and a larger than normal amount of derailments due to track failure...sure, he saved the PTRA several hundred thousand dollars in capitol MOW cost, but lost the PTRA much more in FELA suites, damage to the equipment, service penalties for late shipping and the time down repairing the track, paying the overtime for the MOW to fix the new problem....the board of directors moved him on in two years.
After him, Jim Height came on board...former Texas Corridor Director for BNSF...former Rock Island brakeman, conductor and engineer if I remember correctly...physical injuries, lost time, late trains and down power were not options for him...he didn't need a study group or a consultant to point him towards the problems...the man rode most of our jobs after taking control, discovered procedural problems as well as physical problems, addressed them the way a railroader would, had the problems corrected, and we turned in the highest car loading and highest car move numbers for any Class 3 in the nation.
Under Jim, who was by no means a hidebound fellow, we instituted a proprietary computer controlled car tracking system, which allows our customers to simply go on line and find their car(s) anywhere...no matter what rail line has them at any given point, they can see in real time where their car is and what it's next move will be.
Under Jim Height, just "because we always did it that way" was met with "Yeah, but that might not be the way we will do it tomorrow".
His railroad experience equipped him with the knowledge to see a new product, and new or different ways of operating opposed to a traditional product or procedure, and quickly evaluate whether it was a viable project for the PTRA...off the street guys simply see "new" as "better", Jim saw new as "different", and his railroading skills allowed him to decide if new or old school worked better.
Our current super...well, let's put it this way, he was under the impression that an engineer could put his train in emergency braking, then quickly back the train up if needed...
This man is charged with managing millions of dollars of men, equipment and real estate, and he has no clue how any of it really works...he has never bent his back to the task, and can not grasp the basic fundamentals of how trains are built, run, switched.
How can a person who has never done any of the task instruct his employees in the work to be performed...worse, if he has no clue what goes on, how can he dole out discipline when things don't work?
I am not denigrating the skill set needed to manage a business; I am denigrating the lack of hands on experience combined with your "skill set".
Maybe its just me, but given the choice of working for a guy with an MBA, or another degree in business management, who never leaves his office, and has never done any of the work I do, and a guy who shows up at the office in jeans and work boots...well, I will pick the guy with dirt under his fingernails every time.
23 17 46 11
What skills do I offer, and what right do I have saying that America needs to drastically alter transportation policy?
My unique knowledge of natural nuclear fusion (which might be usable for generating electricity) is based on a subtle interpretation of radioactive isotope data on volcanic water. DOE information contradicts that from USGS. My interests are interplanetary interactions, but 30 years ago when I was picking careers this was still a theoretical subject. Now, hundreds of scientists are employed worldwide trying to understand experiments such as "Solar Radiation and Climate." Anyway, the railroad industry needs to adopt a positive vision of a low - carbon future, as per international mandates.
I understand that everything is a pipe dream without plumbers. I have been successfully employed most of my life, but things are tight now and the only jobs are truck drivers (two positions) and newspaper editor (the newspaper keeps shrinking; I think the editor quit because of poor economic conditions...) Ineffective links (eg, Rosario Marina, WSF Ferries)in public transportation are destroying the Orcas Island economy. This is not a game to me.
So I don't want to suggest how to run a railroad, but I know that we need to also run a passenger railroad.
Time and time again in skill oriented industries like railroading, "brass" who have either done the job or otherwise have field experience will get mor respect and thus more "out of" his workers than someone hired from outside the industry with no experience. Yes, in some top management situations, where a particular field not related to product is needed, like financing, merging, setting up a management program, etc., you will get a way with someone not familiar with the industry, but not too often will that happen.
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