Huzzah! No.
Sir - Have you no interest in continuing to repetitively flog - no, actively encourage by the use of demonstrative and motivational physical gestures - a previously deceased member of the [non-ferrous] equine species ?
This post has officially been beat to death.
People ask questions simply because they do not know.... It's the same reason I ask questions. When I see something I am not sure about, I ask. First of all, it's better than assuming, and second of all, I may get the answer I seek.
I tend to be very analytical, and my questions come from my analysis, especially when that analysis bumps up against something I am not sure of, or simply don't know. Might it be a "stupid question"... possibly, but then since it is something I am unaware of, then, in my opinion, it's not a "stupid question". I encourage my children to ask questions, do research, and come to conclusions based on the data they find. It's the only way to get to know things.
I have amassed a considerable knowledge of the Second World War by reading, and when I have had the opportunity, asking questions of those who have more knowledge on the subject than I do, and from those questions, I learned more, which prompted me to do more research, read some more, and then, guess what? Arrive at another question.....
When I was a firefighter, I got asked many a "simple" question by people visiting the firehouse. I always took the time to answer them. Someone may ask "what is a pike pole?".... it's really a simple tool, and it's use should seem obvious, right? Well, no, not to someone who has no knowledge of firefighting, the equipment, or the hand tools. That person deserves an answer, without condescension, or "attitude" because the question may appear to be "stupid" to one who uses the equipment every day, or to one who is familiar with the equipment and what it does.
I frequently volunteer at a railway museum, and I get all kinds of questions from railfans and general public that may strike us as silly and uninformed (my favorite is the one about whether the handbrake wheel at the front of a streetcar is a steering wheel). But I'm firmly on the side of those who welcome questions, and I make a real effort to be as friendly and responsive as possible in answering them, no matter how silly they may seem to me. When I was a fresh faced kid just getting my feet wet in railroading (that was a really long time ago), I probably asked questions that seemed silly too. As someone (I forget who it was) once commented, there are no bad questions, only bad answers.
Ulrich Mark Twain wrote: "When I was 15 I was surprised at how little my father knew...by the time I was 20 I was surprised at how much he'd learned in only 5 years!" Wisdom indeed...
Mark Twain wrote: "When I was 15 I was surprised at how little my father knew...by the time I was 20 I was surprised at how much he'd learned in only 5 years!" Wisdom indeed...
My father said that in high school he didn't think his father was too bright. After graduating in 1943, he volunteered for the Army and was part of the force that invaded Okinawa and took it from the Japanese. He said when he got back home in late 1945, it was amazing how much smarter his father had become.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Does anyone else see the irony about someone complaining about people that ask questions is asking a question about asking questions? hmmm. henry6 Excuse me? I have not made a soap opera out of it but some responders have. I have elicited responses some of which have been supportive, others which explained opposite opinions all of which I respect. Those whose responses demean a person or his idea, do not deserve respect.
Does anyone else see the irony about someone complaining about people that ask questions is asking a question about asking questions?
hmmm.
henry6 Excuse me? I have not made a soap opera out of it but some responders have. I have elicited responses some of which have been supportive, others which explained opposite opinions all of which I respect. Those whose responses demean a person or his idea, do not deserve respect.
Excuse me? I have not made a soap opera out of it but some responders have. I have elicited responses some of which have been supportive, others which explained opposite opinions all of which I respect. Those whose responses demean a person or his idea, do not deserve respect.
YUP...GOOD BYE!
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Jay - I think the answer to your question can be found in the post immediately preceding yours.
There are many ways to do things on the railroad. Even within a given railroad or area, different people may take different approaches to the same problem. The beginning and the end are the same, but the middles may look like they are from different planets.
Those who get into a snit because it turns out that their way isn't the only way need to step back and take a deep breath...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Bagehot It's just "different" here for some reason and whether this is typical, or my other limited experiences are more typical, I do not know.
It's just "different" here for some reason and whether this is typical, or my other limited experiences are more typical, I do not know.
I think that what you see here is fairly typical of railfan discussion groups; and I'm not surprised that it's different from other types of groups, for instance the NASA site that you mentioned earlier. I have no particular interest in aviation; however there have been a few occasions when I've needed to do some research on specific aviation issues. I located and used several aviation Internet discussion groups; and the first thing that I noticed about them was the extent to which the participants would stay focused on an issue and jointly arrive at conclusions about that issue without offending one another. I've certainly seen that happen on railfan discussion groups; however it seemed to happen more consistently with the people who were interested in aviation than it does with the people who are interested in railroads.
If that comparison is accurate -- and since it's so limited, it might not be -- I can't explain the difference. Although I have a vague feeling that it has something to do with availability of information.
As a railroader and a fan of the history of railroading, I am constantly shocked by the answers given by some of the people who post on here regularly. I have not been doing this an incredibly long time but there are some things that seem to be lost on some of these frequent posters. First off, not everything that happens out here happens the way it does in your yard, subdivision, division, or railroad, Having workd in two different divisions and in and out of about four different divisions of a major class 1 railroad, as well as working interchange jobs with three class 2 and one class 1 railroads; I gotta tell you, the way you do it ain't the only way. I see so many responses here that would seem like the gospel truth if I didn't know better. Working on the lollipop sub in the candyland division of gumdrop railroad might work for you, but you might be unemployed where I work.
Now, I agree that when someone asks a goofball question about why we have to blow the horn so long or, goes on and on,(and on and on and on...)about how great the fallen flag was it gets old quick. It doesn't take long to figure out who on here is 13 years old or is 35 years old and still sleeps in the basement at mom's house.
I try to take everything with a grain of salt and hope that the questioner gets a pretty good idea of what they were asking and doesn't take ANYTHING away from here as 'that is just the way that it is'.
Just my two cents.
zugmann Did anyone ever ask you to do field research for them? Don't know the answer? Then don't reply. Why make a soap opera out of it?
Did anyone ever ask you to do field research for them? Don't know the answer? Then don't reply. Why make a soap opera out of it?
JayPotter I have a feeling that people who ask questions on railfan forums generally fall within one of two broad categories, (1) those who want nothing more than information and (2) whose who probably do want some information but who primarily want ongoing interaction with other railfans and/or railroaders.
I have a feeling that people who ask questions on railfan forums generally fall within one of two broad categories, (1) those who want nothing more than information and (2) whose who probably do want some information but who primarily want ongoing interaction with other railfans and/or railroaders.
That's probably as true as anything. It is an internet phenomenon for sure. Nothing negative about either motive. Hopefully they get what they need. There might be more productive approaches from the "informational" standpoint, especially given the examples set by some. It's just "different" here for some reason and whether this is typical, or my other limited experiences are more typical, I do not know.
-- Bagehot
edblysardAnd you, it seems, are nothing but a troll, looking to pick a fight and browbeat others in to agreeing with you, those that don't you simply insult.
Wow. Say nothing further. Illuminating to say the least.
But, calm down. I don't know who you are, or who you think you are, and I'm not here to argue with you about it. Nobody said you weren't "entitled" to your opinion and nobody's out to get you. I just happen to disagree with the notion that a particular selection of skillsets, or chapped lips, has anything to do with managing a business, including a railroad business for the explicit reason that railroads are first, last and always, a "business". I also disagree with the notion that it is appropriate to disparage those other skillsets. And those aren't even your notions, at least "originally". They represent an old cancer in the rail industry of a destructive class warfare.
However, those long-disparaged "management" skills, exercised without the proper chapped lips but rather in the capable hands of various well-respected managers, have done some pretty outstanding "railroading".
If you disagree, fine, but there are some formidible reputations out there that evidence the contrary. If you agree, then what's the problem?
I agree..screw the soap opera. I ask whatever I want and try to be respectful...if you don't like my question or think it inane or silly then don't respond. No need for a long winded snooty diatribe.
I made the initial post because I didn't realize myself how much pages and forums like this are the only source many have to find this information. Maybe they are new to the field and found out about railroading and trains because of the internet totally unaware of any other source of information such as books from libraries and book stores or from historical societies and other railfans. Sources most of us take for granted. I also, perhaps unfairly and uninformed, feel that the extent of railfanning for many is to simply take an post pictures. But what I overlooked the most is that so many of us who have been fans for decades came along 1) before the internet and 2) (and more importantly) when there were still railroad people around to convey information and teach us what was going on; people who were station agents, tower operators, yardmasters and train crews who befreinded so many of us and shared their passion for thier careers. Fueling my initial statment have been curt replies that if the one posing the question wanted to read a book he would go to the library, or that being directed to a book or a railfan society or or musuem operation was too much trouble for them. I don't mind sharing what I have learned about railfanning and about railroading. But I don't like being scorned because I refuse to go through the research and provide a disertation which, I feel, is the role of the one asking the question. I'll direct one to the information but I don't want to be expected to do all the work.
Incidentally, when I made the initial post I had no idea what, if any, answers there would be. But the discussion has been most enlightening, I am glad there are so many who understood where I was coming from and opened up the discussion to so many divergent views and opinipons.
jeffhergert So I guess from now on when anyone asks a question, the answers are, in no particular order: 1. Search the Trains Forums first to see if there has been any previous discussion. 2. Use some internet seach engine to find your answer. 3. There are other forums devoted to railroads, try there. 4. Hire out on a railroad and find out for yourself. Make sure that if your question is railroad or regional specific that you hire out on the right one and in the right craft. All sarcasm aside, if you don't like a question thread, you don't have to read it. When I see a title that I don't think will interest me, I skip it. Jeff
So I guess from now on when anyone asks a question, the answers are, in no particular order:
1. Search the Trains Forums first to see if there has been any previous discussion.
2. Use some internet seach engine to find your answer.
3. There are other forums devoted to railroads, try there.
4. Hire out on a railroad and find out for yourself. Make sure that if your question is railroad or regional specific that you hire out on the right one and in the right craft.
All sarcasm aside, if you don't like a question thread, you don't have to read it. When I see a title that I don't think will interest me, I skip it.
Jeff
Mookie
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Bagehot The paradox is that, in an age when so much information is available at the touch of a keyboard, posters don't want to even bother to take a minimum amount of time to research their question first -- they want someone else to research it or answer it for them, and are so hastily posted as to be replete with mispellings and sometimes inexplicable incoherence. I do think the original poster was simply frustrated at the "zeitgeist" -- the "I am the center of the world and I want someone to answer my question for me right now" personality -- even if the generic question was, in fact, just answered yesterday had the poster been paying attention. I tend to agree with the original poster that there isn't just the lack of giving some of the questions two seconds worth of thought before posting -- and the courtesy of at least checking spelling -- there is often a stunning lack of common sense. The original post may go to the idea that some posters post away blithely thinking that there are simple answers at their fingertips in spite of the overwhelming availability of on-line literature that would, unfortunately, require some work on their part to access in order to formulate a more informed question and in some instances, even give them better answers than they might get here.
The paradox is that, in an age when so much information is available at the touch of a keyboard, posters don't want to even bother to take a minimum amount of time to research their question first -- they want someone else to research it or answer it for them, and are so hastily posted as to be replete with mispellings and sometimes inexplicable incoherence.
I do think the original poster was simply frustrated at the "zeitgeist" -- the "I am the center of the world and I want someone to answer my question for me right now" personality -- even if the generic question was, in fact, just answered yesterday had the poster been paying attention.
I tend to agree with the original poster that there isn't just the lack of giving some of the questions two seconds worth of thought before posting -- and the courtesy of at least checking spelling -- there is often a stunning lack of common sense. The original post may go to the idea that some posters post away blithely thinking that there are simple answers at their fingertips in spite of the overwhelming availability of on-line literature that would, unfortunately, require some work on their part to access in order to formulate a more informed question and in some instances, even give them better answers than they might get here.
I agree with your observations; and, at the risk of over-generalizing, I have a theory that might explain them to some extent.
People whom I place in the "interaction" category generally seem to give less thought to their questions than do the people whom I place in the "information" category.
This doesn't mean that I discount your I-am-the-center-of-the-world theory. I think that theory also explains some of what we're seeing.
I try to focus on the interaction-versus-information theory because it makes me less frustrated than the I-am-the-center-of-the-world theory.
In his first post, Henry6 says he cringes when he hears a railfan ask how an engineer knows how to run with a double header. He seems to believe that such a question implies that the questioner is ignorant of the fact that operating with a double header takes skill, judgment, and coordination that must be learned by much experience; and therefore, the person being asked would be offended by apparent fact that the question fails to recognize that long won achievement in knowledge. I suppose the person being asked could be offended by that rather odd way of looking at it, but I’m guessing that 999 out of 1000 railroaders would welcome the question.
It is a very insightful and interesting question. The answer could probably fill a book. If I were an engineer or otherwise knew the answer, and was participating in a forum at my leisure, I would welcome such a question. And if my being asked the question made somebody cringe, I would want to know why.
The question in question was on the Classic Trains forum a couple months ago. Here it is: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/131519.aspx
We all know the Jitney drivers run the railroad...
Go ahead and ask any question you have. Sure you can search google or read railfan magazines, but a lot of those "facts" are questionable at best. There was a guy that was convinced that the B in a locomotive's model designation was for "bathroom". Yeah.
As I mentioned, setting a criteria for everyone's skillsets by one particular person, who apparently doesn't like his supervisor, and judges quite critically anyone who doesn't have his particular skillsets, is not just unjustifiably arrogant, but plainly out of touch with railroading as an industry. And, I do think it is needlessly offensive to have some odd need to denigrate the skillsets of others -- especially those who actually did "work their way up" -- in order to elevate the relevance of your own. I just don't see the point of doing it.
Wow,
Not setting any criteria for any one, although you seem to be.
By the way, I like my Superintendent, he's a real fun guy, I simply believe he is in over his head, and lacks the real world experience to instruct others on how to do their job.
People with skill" at "running" railroads do, in fact, require different skillsets than having chapped lips.
I agreed with you, what I wrote was that having both the hands on learned skills and the school taught management skills complimented each other, and that having only the school learned skill set of management by itself left the person not prepared to do the best job.
And in your post, why you might think that "lining a switch, pulling a pin, tying a handbrake or setting up dynamic brakes" represents a "bottom" to work your way up from would, I am sure, irritate that poster no end. But it is interesting that you see it that way. I don't. They represent an important skillset. I disagree that they necessarily have usefulness in "running" a railroad, and with the typical "labor" attitude that all the supervisors are idiots while all the geniuses somehow remain at the "bottom" -- wherever that is.
Now, about altering post...I never implied that lining switches or pulling pins represents the bottom, but you just did...in fact, I never mentioned a "bottom" to start from.
I happen to think that each job, from clerk, to pin puller to car knocker to trainmaster is as important as any other job on the railroad, if we all do our job correctly, each one integrates with the other and we are successful at moving trains.
I never wrote that "all supervisors are idiots", again you just did...
I happen to admire several of the people I have worked for over the years, some simply more than others.
And no, some of the geniuses work their way to the top, some slide in from out side the old school promotion chain, and some even manage to like being "laborers" and choose to remain right where they are.
One's personal wealth, appearance or job position has zero bearing on their intelligence.
I think you altered my point. I did not suggest that there was no merit to "working the way up." Where else would you start?
My objection was to the specific comment that only if you "worked your way up" from the poster's own preferred skill sets would he have any confidence in who was "running the railroad" even though he apparently has no other personal skill sets to offer as a standard of the comparison to the skill sets of other railroaders he so casually derides.
Speaking of altering someone's point, no where did I write that the "only" way was to work yourself up...Hummm, so I guess you are as guilty as anyone of altering others points or intentionally misrepresenting what is written in order to make it fit your needs.
And I was not deriding anyone, although you seem to take pleasure in doing so...I guess having double standards is ok, so long as you're the one that gets to pick and choose who has to follow what standard.
Funny, your writing and attitude bear a strong resemblance to another poster, who "left" this forum a while ago...simply because he only came here to pick fights.
And by the way, my preferred "skill sets" include quite a bit more that railroading...it is simply that I enjoy my current job to no end.
I railroad because I choose to, not because I have to.
And you, it seems, are nothing but a troll, looking to pick a fight and browbeat others in to agreeing with you, those that don't you simply insult.
So, seeing as how you know what is required to run a railroad, how about your bona fides?
What railroads have you run?...stuff like that.
23 17 46 11
JayPotter I expect that most people who have worked do understand the concept of studying and on-the-job training and realize that this concept applies to railroading.
I expect that most people who have worked do understand the concept of studying and on-the-job training and realize that this concept applies to railroading.
The remainder of your comment is probably a better description than my view which is unduly cynical on my part. What I do see in the initial post is a frustration that I think increasingly -- and maybe inevitably -- burdens the normally intelligent or curious reader in the age of "instant gratification" which sometimes appears to be the driver behind some postings. The paradox is that, in an age when so much information is available at the touch of a keyboard, posters don't want to even bother to take a minimum amount of time to research their question first -- they want someone else to research it or answer it for them, and are so hastily posted as to be replete with mispellings and sometimes inexplicable incoherence.
And the fact that many of these postings come from adults is neither confidence-inspiring nor a particularly good example for younger railfans who might be interested in the industry in terms of both how to approach legitimate questions and how to responsibly approach knowledgeable people for responsible answers.
An older forum like this no doubt has nearly endless threads on the same kinds of questions, but rarely do posters take advantage of the simple search function. I don't know about this one because I can't seem to bring up anything older than June, 2008 and I don't know if that's just me, or the forum search archive. Maybe I just haven't learned to push the right button yet. But usually, like Google, that's a good place to start.
I do admire the time that some folks take to answer those questions, although sometimes I wonder if they actually do work for a living. I sure don't have that kind of time. I do think the original poster was simply frustrated at the "zeitgeist" -- the "I am the center of the world and I want someone to answer my question for me right now" personality -- even if the generic question was, in fact, just answered yesterday had the poster been paying attention. And, an automatic answer exists if the poster had made the assumption that time and experience naturally provides sometimes intangible answers to questions about function in railroading as in anything else.
"How do you know how much tonnage to put on a train?" is a generic question of the type. I honestly don't know whether it is a good question or a bad question. It certainly is a good question if you are starting from scratch, but I also do know that, on a NASA site that I enjoy reading, if someone posted a question like "how do they know how much fuel to put in the rocket," they would be seen as trolling. There, even the kids, often especially the kids, but a general cross-section of intelligent amateurs interested in the engineering aspects, come armed with well-thought out questions and sometimes put even the "insiders" on the spot. Coming here, from there, I tend to agree with the original poster that there isn't just the lack of giving some of the questions two seconds worth of thought before posting -- and the courtesy of at least checking spelling -- there is often a stunning lack of common sense. Yes, this is a real industry with a high degree of engineering -- and I mean that in the broadest systems' sense -- a long history of protocol development distilled into rule books, and an enormous reservoir of experience that is brought to bear on what used to be the simple expedient of getting a train down the track.
I would guess, today, that a typical "decision" involving a train or track function involves three times as much information to be assessed and processed as the same decision made in, say, 1975. And in 1975, that decision probably required three times as much information and input as 1935. I am probably being conservative. And now, on internet forums, someone pops up "tell me how ...' expecting, in all apparent innocence, an answer in thirty words or less.
Tonnage charts were made for a generation(s) of users that often hadn't even graduated from high school and were working for the railroad because their Uncle Bob did and got them the job. Today's apparently simple procedure demands not just much higher skill and often education levels generally, but mathematical modeling designed to extract the last penny of unnecessary cost out of a given function. The original post may go to the idea that some posters post away blithely thinking that there are simple answers at their fingertips in spite of the overwhelming availability of on-line literature that would, unfortunately, require some work on their part to access in order to formulate a more informed question and in some instances, even give them better answers than they might get here.
I doubt however that anyone is going to be able to command the ocean tide to recede on that point. It's how the adults are posting, the kids are learning from it, and certainly modern internet forums enable the behavior. Good or bad? It is something that seems to be more prevalent here than elsewhere. I don't have any idea whether some of the "personalities" here have pushed it in that direction, or its the nature of railfans in general. I have no outside experience on that count and can offer no opinion. But I can say that it is "different" than what I see on other technically oriented sites that cater to similar amateur interest in technical undertakings.
I do think the old-fashioned idea that "it's other people's time that you are taking" is a dead concept. Getting into a knot about it does nothing but only detract from the other remaining pleasures of life because the people who post in that fashion are rarely the kind of people susceptible to suggestions that they do more work.
Now that I have wasted half the morning breaking all my own rules, I am going to the office and get some real work done. Have a good day.
henry6 Am I the only one amazed at the inability of today's railfans to grasp the fact that doing railroad jobs take skill and know how? Time and time again on these and other railfan pages there are questions and statements about "how do they know how to..." when it comes to running a train or doing other railroad jobs. How does anyone know how to do a job? Study, learn, practice, repeat with sincere dedication for doing it right all the time. It is so basic to work, to jobs, to life, that I am amazed at how often it is not understood. Doesn't anyone today know that when taking on a job you learn the basics and earn the rest by doing?
Am I the only one amazed at the inability of today's railfans to grasp the fact that doing railroad jobs take skill and know how?
Time and time again on these and other railfan pages there are questions and statements about "how do they know how to..." when it comes to running a train or doing other railroad jobs.
How does anyone know how to do a job? Study, learn, practice, repeat with sincere dedication for doing it right all the time. It is so basic to work, to jobs, to life, that I am amazed at how often it is not understood.
Doesn't anyone today know that when taking on a job you learn the basics and earn the rest by doing?
With regard to the "how do they know how" questions, I suspect -- but, since I don't know the specific questions at issue, I could be wrong -- that the people asking the questions were seeking specific, rather than conceptual, information. For example, if I were to ask how railroaders know how many locomotives or what types of locomotives should be assigned to a given type of train, I wouldn't be implying that no knowledge or skills were involved in making that determination. I would be asking for some insight into the kind of information that the (presumably knowledgeable and skilled) railroaders would use when making that determination. In other words, do they consider tonnage ratings, horsepower-per-ton, or additional factors?
Again, I have no way of knowing why specific people ask specific questions. However I have a feeling that at least most of the people asking the questions at issue here weren't implying that railroaders were not knowledgeable and skilled. I suspect that they took knowledge and skills as "givens" and that they were really asking for the specific information to which the railroaders applied their knowledge and skills.
zugmann I brought the point up because the generic term manager was being thrown around earlier. I consider everything from TM on up to be a manager. In fact, the TMs have a very vital part of "running the railroad".
I brought the point up because the generic term manager was being thrown around earlier. I consider everything from TM on up to be a manager. In fact, the TMs have a very vital part of "running the railroad".
Have it your way. Everyone "runs" the railroad. No complaints then as to how it turns out.
zugmannWe have managers that close smaller yards and expect a local crew to be able to serve 4-6 industries 50-100 miles away every day. Or they eliminate a brakeman from a job, and now it takes 2 crews and 4 people to work the same train it used to take 3 people.
I have never seen pay grade create geniuses. But, that's my point: the idea that anybody can look down their noses or up their noses at anyone else in the rail industry is an idea that deserved a death long ago. The generic Labor/Management "Class Warfare" that afflicted railroading for so long never did the industry any good. It damaged the industry immeasurably. But it's still out there. And I objected to its expression on this thread.
And don't get me going on small yards: our company lost a third of its fluidity on a major line when the "new guys" thought the line had too many sidings and small yards. "How come the trains are taking longer?" I don't know if the T&E crews had the answer or not, but the answer was sure obvious to the dispatchers.
And with that, a good night.
selector After all this time, and some nifty commentary, I'm still not sure I appreciate the premise stated at the outset...presumably set off by a series of inane, insensitive, obtuse, naive, or simply stupid questioners.
After all this time, and some nifty commentary, I'm still not sure I appreciate the premise stated at the outset...presumably set off by a series of inane, insensitive, obtuse, naive, or simply stupid questioners.
I read the original post as an analogy to grade school. Teachers always taught there is no such thing as a "dumb" question, to get the shy kid in back to feel free to ask. But the shy kid in the back row always got squashed anyway by the kid -- and there was always one -- in the front row who used the idea to get attention and hog the spotlight by always asking questions and asking every question under the sun ... without ever achieving any noticeable improvement in his knowledge base; because of course that wasn't the point in the first place.
I do see the same people over and over here asking a lot of questions that a quick Google search could 1) give them a more thorough answer, and 2) prepare them to occupy other people's time with a more useful and more informed question.
I guess that was the problem expressed: don't use writing as an excuse for not thinking, "just because it's there."
That's how I interpreted it. Right or wrong, that's another question that is probably a waste of time to try and answer. Each to his own.
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