PEOPLE WITH SKILL

[henry6]

Am I the only one amazed at the inability of today's railfans to grasp the fact that doing railroad jobs take skill and know how?  That it's not like operating a Lionel set around the Christmas tree or pushing a button and letting a computer run an HO layout?  Time and time again on these and other railfan pages there are questions and statements about "how do they know how to..." when it comes to running a train or doing other railroad jobs.  Yes, today's railroaders may not need the same skills as yesterday's, but they certainly are not that far removed from having to know the job(s) at hand and learn some of the same skills an engineer or conductor did 25, 50, 100 years ago.  How does anyone know how to do a job?  Study, learn, practice, repeat with sincere dedication for doing it right all the time.  It is so basic to work, to jobs, to life, that I am amazed at how often it is not understood.  Or is it just me?  I cringe when I see  questions like how did or does an engineer know how fast to run, how to run in tandem or as double header, etc., etc. I am not singleing any one person out because there are many out there asking the same kinds of questions. Doesn't anyone today know that when taking on a job you learn the basics and earn the rest by doing?  Or have we as railfans failed to communicate with the right tools to the newer railfans what has transpired up to now?

[tree68]

Give them credit for asking - it's our opportunity to educate them.   I'm a rules qualified conductor on a tourist line, but there's a lot more to railroading than that.  I've learned a lot on these forums, too.

[Anonymous]

henry6

Am I the only one amazed at the inability of today's railfans to grasp the fact that doing railroad jobs take skill and know how? 

 

When someone asks how a railroader performs his or her job, I don’t interpret those kind of questions to mean that the questioner fails to grasp that skills need to be learned in order for railroaders to do their job.  I see the questions as merely asking for a detailed description of the skill.  It seems constructive to me. 

[The Butler]

henry6

Doesn't anyone today know that when taking on a job you learn the basics and earn the rest by doing? 

Unfortunately, no, many of those who I've met and dealt with who have graduated from high school from the late eighties on believe every thing they should know about the job they are starting should be and is taught in the training class/manual.  This seems common in the physical labor jobs like railroading or construction trades. It's just my experience.

[Ulrich]

You "cringe" at a simple question? Maybe ask me how to start and run an 18 million dollar (annual sales) transportation business...I can tell you that from experience.

 I've never worked for a railroad and I've never run a locomotive...hence the "simple" question. Nonetheless...I have a keen interest in transportation which has provided me with enjoyment over the years...I work in transportation...and despite (or rather probably BECAUSE of) alot of simple questions I sign my own substantial paycheck every week.

 Have fun...enjoy yourself...

(Edited by selector)

[Murphy Siding]

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[henry6]

So far The Butler understands more about where I am coming from and what I mean than the rest. 

(Edited by selector)

I don't mind newcomers to the fraternity asking questions and do encourage it.  But there are several factors that concern me.  One is that too often people are quick to use the internet for instant gratification: don't want to or don't have to research, read a book or magazine, or go to the real sources for the answers.  Two, despite the existance and efforts of railroad societies and other railfan groups, the existance of libraries with thousands of titles in the catagory, despite the large number of periodicals on the subject, there is no working path linking these sources to those seeking the wealth of information available.  As for forums like this, yes, it should be a source and a start, but only a start, in search of informaiton.  Too often those seeking information will go no further than what is said here for whatever reason.  And third, as The Butler enforced, is the shallowness and lack of dedication or whatever you want to call it, as new people take on new roles not undersanding of what the job at hand really is or having a belief it is just like a computer game punching a few keys and moving a mouse and the machine does the rest.

If I am insane it is because I am a railfan.  Er, make that a foamer?

[Ulrich]

You're wound up way too tight... relax...have fun...They're only questions. You might be amazed at how much can be accomplished by asking simple questions... nothing I do involves complex number theory. I've done very well for myself by asking such questions as "where do you ship?" or "can that ship on a flatbed?"... or..."how can I make money with this?"...Don't underestimate the value of simple questions...

[tree68]

You know - one of the most popular and longest running threads for quite a while was Nora's "Stupid Question Thread."  Yep - full of questions, and answers.  Among other things, it got Nora interested in trying to become a conductor (she didn't, but last I knew she was working for NS).

Something that annoys some folks sometimes is the asking of a question that's been discussed at some length (and occasionally with some emotion) in the recent past.  Can't fault the new folks since they weren't on the forums at the time, and the search can be a finicky beast.  Generally someone digs out a link to the old thread and that's that.  Ain't no thing...

It becomes apparent very often that there are many different ways that things are done.  A simple question turns into a complicated answer.   

Live and learn!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The only stupid questions are the ones that you don't ask.

[Railway Man]

henry6

Am I the only one amazed at the inability of today's railfans to grasp the fact that doing railroad jobs take skill and know how?  That it's not like operating a Lionel set around the Christmas tree or pushing a button and letting a computer run an HO layout?  Time and time again on these and other railfan pages there are questions and statements about "how do they know how to..." when it comes to running a train or doing other railroad jobs.  Yes, today's railroaders may not need the same skills as yesterday's, but they certainly are not that far removed from having to know the job(s) at hand and learn some of the same skills an engineer or conductor did 25, 50, 100 years ago.  How does anyone know how to do a job?  Study, learn, practice, repeat with sincere dedication for doing it right all the time.  It is so basic to work, to jobs, to life, that I am amazed at how often it is not understood.  Or is it just me?  I cringe when I see  questions like how did or does an engineer know how fast to run, how to run in tandem or as double header, etc., etc. I am not singleing any one person out because there are many out there asking the same kinds of questions. Doesn't anyone today know that when taking on a job you learn the basics and earn the rest by doing?  Or have we as railfans failed to communicate with the right tools to the newer railfans what has transpired up to now?

 

I am not amazed.  How would they know?  Eighty years ago when 1 in every 28 men of working age worked for a railroad, many boys grew up either with a railroader in their extended family, or a friend at school whose father was a railroader, and were exposed to railroading at a highly detailed level from a young age.

I give them props for asking the questions.

RWM

[ChuckCobleigh]

The Butler

henry6

Doesn't anyone today know that when taking on a job you learn the basics and earn the rest by doing? 

Unfortunately, no, many of those who I've met and dealt with who have graduated from high school from the late eighties on believe every thing they should know about the job they are starting should be and is taught in the training class/manual.  This seems common in the physical labor jobs like railroading or construction trades. It's just my experience.

Well, you could say that about college graduates and post-graduates in many fields as well. As an over-experienced engineer (EE) before I retired, I was amused at the general lack of knowledge exhibited by the new-meat kids out of school Kind of like a new Navy Ensign, we would put them under the wings of a senior tech in the lab for a while, then put them into a team with a good leader and hope that they learned some actual knowledge in the process. After I retired, I ran into a recently retired physician who had pretty much the same impression of newly-minted MDs. I suspect that there are many areas like that.

As it is, the only people who appreciate what one gets from experience are those with experience.

[oltmannd]

ChuckCobleigh

The Butler

henry6

Doesn't anyone today know that when taking on a job you learn the basics and earn the rest by doing? 

Unfortunately, no, many of those who I've met and dealt with who have graduated from high school from the late eighties on believe every thing they should know about the job they are starting should be and is taught in the training class/manual.  This seems common in the physical labor jobs like railroading or construction trades. It's just my experience.

Well, you could say that about college graduates and post-graduates in many fields as well. As an over-experienced engineer (EE) before I retired, I was amused at the general lack of knowledge exhibited by the new-meat kids out of school Kind of like a new Navy Ensign, we would put them under the wings of a senior tech in the lab for a while, then put them into a team with a good leader and hope that they learned some actual knowledge in the process. After I retired, I ran into a recently retired physician who had pretty much the same impression of newly-minted MDs. I suspect that there are many areas like that.

As it is, the only people who appreciate what one gets from experience are those with experience.

I learned TONS by asking questions, once I figured out who knew what and who was interested in talking to me.  Fortunately, I found many good people along the way.  I am still learning from folks here who know lots and like to share.

So, ask away!  I'm more willing to share facts (and opinions!).  At least some of it is payback for those who've taught (and are teaching) me along the way.

[videomaker]

The Butler

henry6

Doesn't anyone today know that when taking on a job you learn the basics and earn the rest by doing? 

Unfortunately, no, many of those who I've met and dealt with who have graduated from high school from the late eighties on believe every thing they should know about the job they are starting should be and is taught in the training class/manual.  This seems common in the physical labor jobs like railroading or construction trades. It's just my experience.

 I have to agree with you Butler,Thats the way it seems to me every time I ask someone something about my car ,my home reairs, for directions..It dont matter,If they werent taught it from a book,they dont have a clue what your talking about...But I do understand that they have to ask questions to learn..

[Ulrich]

Sometimes just asking the question can provide surprising answers. For example last month a customer of mine asked me to quote a  freight rate on a truckload of plastic pellets (for production purposes) being shipped weekly from Albany, NY to Dallas, TX.. He was  tendering the load out to several suppliers to get the lowest rate. I asked the question nobody else did: "Why do you buy your pellets from a supplier in Albany? To make a long story short...I found him a supplier in TX...I got the business AND I saved my customer 65% in freight cost... 

[selector]

I think we are talking about biases in memory and in hindsight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

 It's the old, "In my day, we had to push our car the whole way to church!" kind of thinking that is fraught with memory errors.  We, later in life, have a lot more experience and widsom making much of our learning taken for granted.  I am continually amazed at how naive and seemingly obtuse my three adult daughters can be, but I chide myself when I feel that way by accepting that I am their father, and was no better when their ages.

-Crandell

[vsmith]

Consider that many in todays generations were literally raised on the computer, its too easy for many of them to literally think you just push a button on a computer to do things, video games do not help, flying programs, driving programs, and programs like Trainz give the impression that its not much different in the real world. The fact that there often some very heavy lifting involved often comes a quite a surprise to some people. Consider a reporter who went up in a Blue Angels fighter, he said he loved roller coasters and playing AirCombat or someother video flight simulator club that was real popular in Malls a few years ago, and that he was eager and ready to get up there and was well prepared and ready for anything.

Well up they went, and the pilot went vertical and then into a high G turn...now 2Gs on a roller coaster is one thing, a 5G roll out on a flight simulator another, and 5Gs in an F-18 is something completely different...in about 30 seconds the guy went blue from the oxygen suddenly finding itself in his feet, then green from his stomach entering his brain cavity, then yellow as he shot his ham and eggs breakfast all over the inside of his canopy. Real life experience was something he thought he knew what to expect, turns out he didnt have a clue. Same for work like RRs, airlines, trucking, the skill and experience levels are very different from whats taught in school, its mostly something that cannot be taught, only learned by those actually doing it.

So basic questions dont surprise me, I've also asked a few simply because I didnt know the answer, I'm not in the business and could find an answer from any of my usual sources (books, mags, internet searchs etc) so I ask here and hope someone knows the skinny on it. So asking Q's of those with real life experience is a great source for people like me who may not know but want to understand. We can learn from something no one can read about or play on a video game to learn.

Now for some real PHUN, try explaining to some young kid how it was all done back in the old times, before modern electronics! When train orders were telegraphed, back when locomotives were driven by feel more than anything else, when an engineer figured out his speed literally by timing telegraph poles or other markers, when speed and brakes were signaled by whistle blows and some poor som'batch had to go out onto the roofs of the cars and manually crank or release the brake wheels whether it was raining, snowing or blowing a Hurricane! I've learned alot right here about this era, like dumping the fire, cutting sod from a nearby feild, laying it over the grates and crawling into the firebox to plug a leak in the crown sheet wall with a hammer and a wooden shaving driven into it! Whudathunkit! Dont try that today with OSHA!

[Ulrich]

Mark Twain wrote: "When I was 15 I was surprised at how little my father knew...by the time I  was 20 I was surprised at how much he'd learned in only 5 years!" Wisdom indeed...

 

 

[edblysard]

 

I think I see where your question comes from...

In our last training class...we had several new hires, most young, under 25 of age, who were shocked to learn they were really required to climb up on that nasty tank car of tallow, covered in mosquitoes and flies, and tie a hand brake.

Their entire concept of railroading was the belief that all they were required to do was ride in the left hand seat and wave at the girls at the crossings.

One of these kids Dad worked out here his entire life, and was terribly embarrassed by his kid's attitude.

Once they realized that, yup, if your dumb enough to stick your foot on the rail, odds are a railcar will crush you boot, foot and toes down to about 1/16" thick...and yes, if your hand is in the way, the knuckle and coupler will remove it quite quickly...then most of them give it up after a year, often sooner.

The concept of skilled manual labor is no longer present in our society, mainly because the new industrial age, with robotic and electronic assembly and manufacturing has done away with it in every day life.

I grew up watching a mason laying brick, carpenters framing houses, wrench turners building cars from the frame up...most folks today would not recognize a carpenter from a finish or trim guy, nor do they see any difference in an engineer and a conductor.

It would surprise them to know how really different our two jobs are.

When was the last time you actually watched someone build something?

For today's younger folks, with instant communication, fast food, (literally waiting at the window as fast as they can pull up to it,)

Cheap, almost throw away automobiles, and being trained for jobs that don't require a ground up knowledge, the idea that any skill besides talking and typing is useless, well that's today's norm.

When I was a kid, you were expected to start at the bottom, and work your way up...today, you start in the middle and pretty much stay there.

 

Sadly, there are guys running todays railroads who never lined a switch, pulled a pin, tied a hand brake, or set up the dynamic brakes on a locomotive...never sweated so bad their lips chapped and never felt the rush of being in control of all of the train.

  

[ChuckCobleigh]

edblysard

 

In our last training class...we had several new hires, most young, under 25 of age, who were shocked to learn they were really required to climb up on that nasty tank car of tallow, covered in mosquitoes and flies, and tie a hand brake.

Ed, I think I could have handled that tallow car as a young man, but I'm not so sure about a corn syrup car and a bunch of bees! (Yeah, I know that was a thread a few years ago, but I still think about it.)

It's funny, though, now that you mention about "watch someone build something" that I note a lot of engineers (EE and otherwise that I worked with) go home and engage in things like woodworking or similar hobbies so that they can build something. Something about sitting at a computer workstation or in a conference room that just doesn't fill that need to create, I guess.

[CSXDixieLine]

As a non-railroader, when I ask a question about railroading, I am asking because I don't know the answer, would like to know more about something, and would like to find out from the people that really do the work every day. No alterior motives or smart a## intentions. Jamie

[edblysard]

Nothing wrong with that....I think the original post was not so much aimed at the casual questions being asked, but the fact that a lot of folks never grasp that this is a learned skill that requires a few years to pick up, and that it isnt as easy as it looks.

That and the fact that every train requires many, many people doing their job right, the first time, just to get it over the road and to your town.

Those skills can be taught, but the flip side is you have to have people who want to learn, and that takes time, years sometimes.

I can teach anyone how to pull pins and kick cars in one afternoon...but it will take them 2, maybe 3 years to learn how to switch cars correctly, safely, and efficently.

And just about every train you see was switched up somewhere by someone like me...and a carman inspected it, and a car knocker repaired it, and a bunch of MOW guys tamped the ties, and a clerk wrote the waybill, and....you get the point.

There are so many more skills needed to move a single train than simply waving from the window at crossings....and no one ever thinks about those skills or the folks who master them.

[samfp1943]

AMEN, Paul!

The true value IMO of this forum is the ability of anyone interested in the subjects of railroading to ask questions. Then to have a knowledgeable professional give a response; not to mention comments of their annecdotal experiences. Its strength is the variety of individuals stopping by to share their own experience and questions.

[RRKen]

Of today's hires, there is a kind of arrogance in so many cases.   An old head who had a student brakeman finally had it with his constant reply of "I know".   He finally reared back and told him in no uncertain terms, "you don't ******* know, that is why you are the student, and I am the foreman."  "If you want to make it out here, you had better get your head *** ** **** *** and listen for a change!"  That man is still lost.  

 Sure ask questions.  Out here, the consequences are very high.  Cop an attitude, and you become a target for every manager in the system.   You can run, but your reputation will follow you just as fast.  

With the economy, there have been a lot of cuts.  Those who thought Railroading is a cushy job riding trains from point A to B, now have to work for a living in a yard.  Or not have a job at all.   This is a real culture shock for them.    Most don't have a clue how to mark a switch list, much less read it.  

A wise man in Chicago once remarked, Railroading has it's own reality, separate from the rest of todays world.  

[zardoz]

vsmith

.....how it was all done back in the old times, before modern electronics! When train orders were telegraphed, back when locomotives were driven by feel more than anything else, when an engineer figured out his speed literally by timing telegraph poles or other markers, when speed and brakes were signaled by whistle blows....

Ah, yes--the "good old days".

I remember how luxurious it felt to have a locomotive with a functioning radio.....or even merely a functioning locomotive....

[Bagehot]

edblysard

Sadly, there are guys running todays railroads who never lined a switch, pulled a pin, tied a hand brake, or set up the dynamic brakes on a locomotive...

Nothing"sadly" about it. It's a good thing.

I'm not sure why it's necessary on these threads to denigrate the skill sets necessary to actually run the business and make the jobs.

Hard to envision E.H. Harriman, Jim Hill or Matt Rose lining switches instead of doing their important jobs: exercising their particular extraordinary skillsets which were and are, in fact, few and far between.

-Bagehot

[CSXrules4eva]

edblysard

Nothing wrong with that....I think the original post was not so much aimed at the casual questions being asked, but the fact that a lot of folks never grasp that this is a learned skill that requires a few years to pick up, and that it isnt as easy as it looks.

That and the fact that every train requires many, many people doing their job right, the first time, just to get it over the road and to your town.

Those skills can be taught, but the flip side is you have to have people who want to learn, and that takes time, years sometimes.

I can teach anyone how to pull pins and kick cars in one afternoon...but it will take them 2, maybe 3 years to learn how to switch cars correctly, safely, and efficently.

And just about every train you see was switched up somewhere by someone like me...and a carman inspected it, and a car knocker repaired it, and a bunch of MOW guys tamped the ties, and a clerk wrote the waybill, and....you get the point.

There are so many more skills needed to move a single train than simply waving from the window at crossings....and no one ever thinks about those skills or the folks who master them.

Ed I understand what you are talking about. I was 21 years old when I hired out w/ CSX last year, I honestly semi knew what to expect and then I didn't. Railroading is truely an art, and as you said it comes with time and experience. I had three months of training on the ground working with different crews learning all the assigned routes and the different jobs. After that, CSX marked me up, I was out on my own as a conductor now. Sometimes if I was lucky I would get called as a switchman on a job I wasn't that familiar with.  My first time by myself I was beyond nervous... But, I will have to say that I learned more marked up than I did when I was training. I'm still learning things and little tricks about railroading. I have been marked up for 1 1/2 years now. Just recently I went through an RCO class and, am now RCO qualified, and that takes even more skill; because now you have to take on all the responsibilities of the engineer along with your conductor responsibilities. It is really nerve recking at times. Espeacually when you get called for a one man RCO job. Just when I got through some of my nervousness of being on my own as a conductor, now I have to worry about being on my own as an RCO qualified conductor. I really and truely am thankful for all those "ole heads"out there on my railroad that have helped me and who are continuing to help me out there working on the railroad. But, all in all I really do enjoy railroading; heck I'm a railfan I have to lol

[The Butler]

henry6

...questions and statements about "how do they know how to..." when it comes to running a train or doing other railroad jobs.

That is the line that caught my attention.  I have a younger brother whose favorite line is, "No one taught me how to do _____ ."  Observation, asking of questions, trial and error, and looking up the information are just some of the ways on "how do they know how to..."  I am an asker of questions, some times basic ones. 

[zugmann]

Depends on what level of management.  Sure the top brass do not need the basic skills, but the lower level trainmasters (the ones directly in charge of those doing the work) should.  I've worked under both kinds, and I always would rather work under those that actually did and can truly understand the work at hand.  The ones that never did the work are a real joke out here (and will be taken advantage of).

Bagehot

Nothing"sadly" about it. It's a good thing.

I'm not sure why it's necessary on these threads to denigrate the skill sets necessary to actually run the business and make the jobs.

Hard to envision E.H. Harriman, Jim Hill or Matt Rose lining switches instead of doing their important jobs: exercising their particular extraordinary skillsets which were and are, in fact, few and far between.

-Bagehot

 

[Ulrich]

Even in this day and age you've got top brass who worked their way up. Look at E Hunter Harrison of CN for example..started out with the Frisco and worked his way up. Going back a few years you've got Buck Crump (CPR), and Al Perlman (WP, DRGW, NYC) and probably quite a few more.  JJ Hill, mentioned above, is probably the best example of someone who understood the biz from the ground up.