Everyone is missing the obvious in the Metrolink wreck.

[ValleyX]

Then there was the infamous Ohio wreck back in the 70's I believe, where everybody was back in the B unit playing cards!

No, training, education, dedication, and intellegent oversight are the only things before and after a so called failsafe computer, or other safety stop device.

Infamous? Pray tell us more, I don't recall this.

Today, you don't have enough crewmembers for a decent game.

[selector]

Mark...shame on you...taking candy from "kids" like him. 

[marknewton]

The words ALONG and ON do not mean the same thing.. YES...I walk ALONG railroads...since when is that trespassing? ALONG can mean 50 feet away or even a few hundred feet away...no? Most trains around here run ON the tracks..

"The other day I pulled a spike on a mainline..I see busted ties...I check things out first hand..."

You pulled a spike, and can see busted ties from 50 feet away, or even a few hundred feet away?

You're in the wrong game, in that case. You should sign up as a superhero.

Mark.

[marknewton]

So what does a solo engineer need to keep his attention level and quality of work at its highest level?  Nothing that distracts from his concentration, nothing loud enough to cover up sounds that need to be heard nor devices that needs adjusting or anyother input from the individual.  So what can anybody suggest from here? Is there a practical soulution?

Speaking ONLY for myself, I like to have the radio on, or a CD playing. I keep the volume low, and listen mainly to ABC Classic or one of the community broadcasters who play acoustic country, folk etc. Same for when I'm playing CDs. Much as I love rock&roll, I don't find it suitable for work.

Now before a hundred North American trainmen all jump in and start lecturing me about "the rule book", and personal electronic devices being prohibited while in the cab, RailCorp rules AREN'T the same as yours.

Let me repeat that, our rules DON'T prohibit carrying or using such items.

Drivers are permitted to carry mobile phones, personal radios or CD/mp3 players with them while running, subject to rules governing their use. Our newer rollingstock, the Millennium and Oscar EMUs, and the Endeavour and Hunter diesel railcars, all have radio/CD players fitted in the cab as part of the comms equipment. There is a volume limiter, and the sound is automatically muted if the train radio, crew intercom or PEI is activated.

Endeavours, Xplorers and XPT power cars also have a satellite phone fitted in the cab.

Our train guards (conductors) are issued with a mobile phone, which they are required to carry with them and have switched on at all times when working their train. As they don't currently have access to the train radio, this enables them to have contact with RMC, TCAC and the transit police at all times.

I tend to listen to music mostly when I'm on PMs, as these jobs are longer than AM shifts, and finish in the early hours of the morning. I do find it helps me stay awake, and focused, but that's just me. Other blokes I work with don't like any music at all, and a few seem to enjoy stuff that I wouldn't listen to if you paid me. But the consensus in my depot is that having something playing softly in the background does help.

When I was on freight, modern locos such as the NRs also had phones and radio/CD players, and similar rules and procedures applied to their use. The only problem I ever had with them was when if my mate and I had wildly differing tastes in music!

All the best,

Mark.

[Ulrich]

The words ALONG and ON do not mean the same thing.. YES...I walk ALONG railroads...since when is that trespassing? ALONG can mean 50 feet away or even a few hundred feet away...no? Most trains around here run ON the tracks..

 

 

 

[marknewton]

Mark...did you read my posts? Why would I get run down by an inatttentive crew?

Yes, I read your posts - in particular the one in the now-locked "trespassers" thread where you wrote:

"I freely walk along railroad tracks where I own stock in the railroad that owns the track. I own stock..I own a piece of the pie and I reserve the right to walk along it ...".

That's why.

Mark.

[henry6]

Then there was the infamous Ohio wreck back in the 70's I believe, where everybody was back in the B unit playing cards!

No. Training, education, dedication, and intellegent oversight are the only things before and after a so called failsafe computer, or other safety stop device.

[henry6]

  

Ah, yes, the birth of Muzak.

 

Did I say that outloud?  But yes, Muzak based their marketing on those concepts.  It does get pretty involved so I won't, and can't, go into it here. There are also white noise, black noise, etc. which some say is better than music, but that is only for masking ambient noises and not provide anything else.  Music with lyrics tend to distract while instrumental is more subliminal in effect.  Classical music is not a good general environmental music because of it often being in minor keys and has very low and very high volumed passages that will first lull you off and then startle you.  So, I am not really suggesting Muzak, or necessarily other music, in the cab of a locomotive or cab car.  But, ask if there is anything anyone else could suggest beyond the safety devices available or having a second person in the cab, too?

[zardoz]

The concept of attention is important.  Much research has been done on attention, concentration, and effeciency.  Early (WWI I believe) research showed sentries would be come bored and lose concentration in total silence.  A noise would increase attention but could also be distracting.  The introduction of music, believe it or not, was found to be a device (for lack of a better term at the moment) that kept them alert and efficient.  Thorugh the years it was found that different tempo's, volume, rhythm's, orchestration, familiarity of music, etc., could actually control attention and work quality. 

Ah, yes, the birth of Muzak.

[Road Foreman]

I don't think having a second person in the cab to act as a second pair of eyes would make things safer.  Wasn't there an accident in Chicago like a year ago where an Amtrak train rear ended a NS freight train even though there were 3 people in the cab? I believe the engineer was an engineer-in-training, the other two people were the instructors and all of them misread a signal telling them to stop?  Perhaps someone from Chicagoland can verify this.

There were only two people in the cab of that locomotive and they were both qualified engineers. One of the engineers was a relief engineer that should have been running the train and the engineer at the controls should have been back in the body of they train. This incident was caused by the engineer at the controls miss calling the signal at CP Ingelwood MP 515.8. He called out a slow approach signal but the signal was acctually a restricting signal (you cannot get a slow approach at CP Ingelwood). The other engineer failed to take action to try and prevent the accident..

In the cass of the MetroLink accident, it doesn't mater if there is one person in the cab or 5 people in the cab. This incident was caused by shear stupidity. Why the heck was he texting while he was operating.

Amtrak Road Foreman of Engines 

[henry6]

This concept of supervision is intrigueing if only for the times we do accept it.  Any sport team would not survive a game without at least a coach, if not a coach and staff, watching and suggesting what each player must do and how the entire game is played out.  I mean we've got professional ball players here who know what their position is, know the rules, and know how to play the game.  But instructions come in from the sidelines, the bench, or the dugout.  Other businesses have supervisory personnel overseeing operations and people.  There are some jobs, yes, where you can't look over the shoulder and coach or direct.  And railroading is a mix of both.  Micro management is often overkill for many situations but neglecting to manage is just as defeating, especially for morale.  What you have to have is a well educated and trained staff aboard a train that is capable and understanding to take direction from the ground but also be trusted to do what is safe and effecient at any given time without supervision: it is a team of all involved.  Any additional help from any device from air brakes to wayside signals to radio communications to train control and traffic control is welcomed.  But again, crews and management all have to be on the same page and work together.  Unmentioned, but implied, is that they all have to trust the system, each other, and themselves to make it work.

The concept of attention is important.  Much research has been done on attention, concentration, and effeciency.  Early (WWI I believe) research showed sentries would be come bored and lose concentration in total silence.  A noise would increase attention but could also be distracting.  The introduction of music, believe it or not, was found to be a device (for lack of a better term at the moment) that kept them alert and efficient.  Thorugh the years it was found that different tempo's, volume, rhythm's, orchestration, familiarity of music, etc., could actually control attention and work quality. 

So what does a solo engineer need to keep his attention level and quality of work at its highest level?  Nothing that distracts from his concentration, nothing loud enough to cover up sounds that need to be heard nor devices that needs adjusting or anyother input from the individual.  So what can anybody suggest from here? Is there a practical soulution?

The one worst job in railroading I would assume is to be a motorman in a subway. Dark, gloomy with bursts of light at stations, for long periods of time...for many perhaps thier full work day...cramped into a space barely big enough to turn in, and by yourself.  I admire them for what they do, but I don't want their job!

[Ulrich]

Mark...did you read my posts? Why would I get run down by an inatttentive crew?

[marknewton]

Hey Ulrich, 

I think the stakes are much higher when a train engineer screws up than when a single truck driver or crane operator makes a mistake.  Your knee jerk reaction that if engineers need a second pair of eyes to help do their job then everyone else will be entitled to the same "budy-team" system is a non-sequitur. 

PS:  A non-sequitur is an inference that does not follow from the premises. 

No knee jerk reaction...just commenting on how some folks can't do their jobs without supervision...I'm not singling out engineers or conductors...it is a broad commentary on most people who function at 30% interest, alertness, and ability...

Are you worried that one day when you're out trespassing on railroad property, you might get run down and killed by an inattentive crew?

Mark.

[Ulrich]

Hey Ulrich, 

I think the stakes are much higher when a train engineer screws up than when a single truck driver or crane operator makes a mistake.  Your knee jerk reaction that if engineers need a second pair of eyes to help do their job then everyone else will be entitled to the same "budy-team" system is a non-sequitur. 

PS:  A non-sequitur is an inference that does not follow from the premises. 

No knee jerk reaction...just commenting on how some folks can't do their jobs without supervision...I'm not singling out engineers or conductors...it is a broad commentary on most people who function at 30% interest, alertness, and ability. Yes..you guys have important jobs...and all the more reason to hire people who can do them properly...people who can be counted on to do the job right every time without error. Is that asking for too much? Apparently so. BTW..I do know what a non sequitur is...thanks.

[zardoz]

 So either we are at cross-purposes, or you agree with the OP's claim that "There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person on a busy rail line especially in an urban area", which in my view is utter BS.

So then we agree on most points. 

Regarding the above quote, I do not agree with it, nor do I totally disagree with it.  There have been times when racing at 70mph through a suburban village with a crossing every city block, trying to time my train so I make a good meet at the next station with a train in the opposite direction,  other trains trying to contact me to arrange other meets, watching out for rock-throwers and gate-runners, in the darkness of winter, looking for signals lost in the glare of city lights, dealing with ATS or ATC, that I would appreciate another set of eyes and ears.  However, they are not necessary 99% of the time.

[marknewton]

So now we have an idea of the operating conditions you work with.  I would bet that if railroaders from around the world would answer the very same questions, each one would reply with different answers to some or all of the questions.

The guy running coal and grain trains up and over Palmer Lake in Colorado has an entirely different set of circumstances to deal with than the guy running an IM train over the Kansas plains.

Just as the guys in Canada have their own operational headaches to deal with, you have your own unique situations to manage.

I'm not familiar with the area where the Metrolink train crashed, but I would bet that his operational situation is different than that of my suburban territory, as well as different from that of the suburban trains in New York.  Or Tokyo. Or __________(fill in the blank of any railroad location).

Each engineer has their own set of operatioal parameters, as well as their own definition of how to operate is said area.  None of us are any better than anyone else.  We each do what we must to get over the road the easiest and (usually) safest way possible.

None of which I dispute. I've repeatedly stated that each case differs, and should be judged on its individual circumstances. Nor do I believe my operation is superior. So either we are at cross-purposes, or you agree with the OP's claim that "There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person on a busy rail line especially in an urban area", which in my view is utter BS.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

"Perhaps it's just North American traincrew who aren't up to the challenge?"

Perhaps you should come to Canada and show the the crews how to be "up to the challenge". But first put in some quality time actually running trains up here, since we surely don't need another cocksure manager spouting off how it should be done.

I'm not a manager, never have been, never will be. I've spent some of my career fixing trains, the remainder running them. As for quality time spent running trains, you're in no position to criticise. How many hours footplate time did you rack up when you were a signal mechanic? Or did you hope I wouldn't notice what you did for a living??? I certainly noticed how you avoided answering the question I put earlier about your operating experience.

I will not go into how extraordinarily diverse the working, weather, infrastructure, and track conditions are in Canada.

Very diverse, I'm sure, but it's irrelevant to your claim about the driver's workload in multiple track urban areas...

I guarantee after spending 10, even 5 years with the 'New CN', that high and mighty attitude of yours will either change or you will quit, if not fired first.

I've got 33 years service with the same high and mighty attitude. Its served me well so far.

Yes come on up to Canada. What's another foreign surly braggart.

What's another wannabe engineman who presumes to speak with authority about something he has never experienced?

Mark.

[zardoz]

There are many mitigating and agravating conditions that would preclude either of the above blanket statements.

Yes, I would tend to agree with you. I simply objected to the sweeping generalisation made by the OP.

Are the trains just cruising through town, or are they making a station stop?

Depends on the diagram, you can get a high-wheeler, skip stopper or a deep sea job - all stations.

Are the trains going fast or slow?

Again, depends. Our maximum permitted speed is 115kmh, and there are plenty of places where we do that easily, other locations you're down to 40 or 50 due to sharp curves.

Are you running a 15K ton 9000' train, or a 3-car suburban train?

Maximum length for us is a ten-car double-deck interurban, approximately 550 tons, 230 metres.

Are there any significant grades to deal with?

Yes. Sydney is surrounded by mountains, every direction is uphill. Ruling grade on the Illawarra is 1 in 33, 1 in 30 on the west and north.

Are there signals that blend in with traffic lights?

Yes, many locations have this problem.

Are there multiple crossings with good/poor protection?

Not as many as when I first started on the job, but there are still a fair number once you get away from town. All now have boom gates and F-type crossing lights, but I still don't like them...

All the best,

Mark.

So now we have an idea of the operating conditions you work with.  I would bet that if railroaders from around the world would answer the very same questions, each one would reply with different answers to some or all of the questions.

The guy running coal and grain trains up and over Palmer Lake in Colorado has an entirely different set of circumstances to deal with than the guy running an IM train over the Kansas plains.

Just as the guys in Canada have their own operational headaches to deal with, you have your own unique situations to manage.

I'm not familiar with the area where the Metrolink train crashed, but I would bet that his operational situation is different than that of my suburban territory, as well as different from that of the suburban trains in New York.  Or Tokyo. Or __________(fill in the blank of any railroad location).

Each engineer has their own set of operatioal parameters, as well as their own definition of how to operate is said area.  None of us are any better than anyone else.  We each do what we must to get over the road the easiest and (usually) safest way possible.

[CliqueofOne]

"Perhaps it's just North American traincrew who aren't up to the challenge?"

Perhaps you should come to Canada and show the the crews how to be "up to the challenge". But first put in some quality time actually running trains up here, since we surely don't need another cocksure manager spouting off how it should be done. I will not go into how extraordinarily diverse the working, weather, infrastructure, and track conditions are in Canada. I guarantee after spending 10, even 5 years with the 'New CN', that high and mighty attitude of yours will either change or you will quit, if not fired first.

Yes come on up to Canada. What's another foreign surly braggart.

[marknewton]

There are many mitigating and agravating conditions that would preclude either of the above blanket statements.

Yes, I would tend to agree with you. I simply objected to the sweeping generalisation made by the OP.

Are the trains just cruising through town, or are they making a station stop?

Depends on the diagram, you can get a high-wheeler, skip stopper or a deep sea job - all stations.

Are the trains going fast or slow?

Again, depends. Our maximum permitted speed is 115kmh, and there are plenty of places where we do that easily, other locations you're down to 40 or 50 due to sharp curves.

Are you running a 15K ton 9000' train, or a 3-car suburban train?

Maximum length for us is a ten-car double-deck interurban, approximately 550 tons, 230 metres.

Are there any significant grades to deal with?

Yes. Sydney is surrounded by mountains, every direction is uphill. Ruling grade on the Illawarra is 1 in 33, 1 in 30 on the west and north.

Are there signals that blend in with traffic lights?

Yes, many locations have this problem.

Are there multiple crossings with good/poor protection?

Not as many as when I first started on the job, but there are still a fair number once you get away from town. All now have boom gates and F-type crossing lights, but I still don't like them...

All the best,

Mark.

[zardoz]

There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person on a busy rail line especially in an urban area. Multi track mixed with single track aggravates the situation.

That's an opinion which is at odds with reality. There are any number of urban railways I could cite that are far busier than those in North America, and which have anything up to 12 separate tracks, and yet they operate quite safely and happily with just one bloke up the front. My own railway has a lengthy stretch of electrified line which is six tracks, right through the middle of the city, and as busy as all get out in the am and pm peaks. Running there requires concentration, but saying "There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person" is incorrect, and insulting.

Mark.

There are many mitigating and agravating conditions that would preclude either of the above blanket statements.

Are the trains just cruising through town, or are they making a station stop?
Are the trains going fast or slow?
Are you running a 15K ton 9000' train, or a 3-car suburban train?
Are there any significant grades to deal with?
Are there signals that blend in with traffic lights?
Are there multiple crossings with good/poor protection?
Are there other trains in the vicinity?
Does the engineer have to monitor pedestrians and passengers as well as autos?
What are the weather conditions?
How good is visibility?
Is it night or day?
etc, etc.

My point is that just because an area is busy or not should not be the only criteria used to decide if an engineer's ability is overtaxed.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Would Metrolink even be in existence if it had to cover the added expense of an extra crewman on all of its trains?  What people say they want (more safety) and what they are willing to pay for (the carrier should eat the added costs) are usually two different things.

[zardoz]

 You hit the nail right on the head, employee cutbacks are a major problem when it comes to public safety! If there was a second engineer 26 people WOULD still be alive today as he/she would have been there to see the signals and stop the train.

Conjecture.

 

Now, if you had wrote, "If there was a second engineer 26 people WOULD MORE LIKELY still be alive...."

I do agree that employee cutbacks put safety at risk, not only in the railroad industry, but in many industries (trucking, airlines, etc).

[marknewton]

There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person on a busy rail line especially in an urban area. Multi track mixed with single track aggravates the situation.

That's an opinion which is at odds with reality. There are any number of urban railways I could cite that are far busier than those in North America, and which have anything up to 12 separate tracks, and yet they operate quite safely and happily with just one bloke up the front. My own railway has a lengthy stretch of electrified line which is six tracks, right through the middle of the city, and as busy as all get out in the am and pm peaks. Running there requires concentration, but saying "There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person" is incorrect, and insulting.

Mark.

To suggest that what works in Australia, must by all means work in North America is also incorrect and insulting.

Is it? One-man operation works quite well on busy multi-track urban railways all over the world, not just Australia. And I'm talking about operations that dwarf anything found in the US and Canada. Perhaps it's just North American traincrew who aren't up to the challenge?

As a Canadian who spent 37 years on the Canadian National Railways, I witnessed and experienced enough to have a solid foundation to base my opinion on.

Of those 37 years, how many were as traincrew? Your opinion is not based on as solid foundation as you'd like to think.

Thus I stand firmly behind my opinion and I refuse to get into a pissing contest with anyone who insults my opinion. I had enough of that childish and simplistic garbage from management on CN and now that I'm retired, I find that life is really too short to waste my time getting all bent out of shape over it.

Good for you. You stated an opinion which is demonstrably wrong, and now you're going to spit the dummy because I pointed that out. I bet you and the management got on real well! ;-)

Cheers,

Mark.

[CliqueofOne]

There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person on a busy rail line especially in an urban area. Multi track mixed with single track aggravates the situation.

That's an opinion which is at odds with reality. There are any number of urban railways I could cite that are far busier than those in North America, and which have anything up to 12 separate tracks, and yet they operate quite safely and happily with just one bloke up the front. My own railway has a lengthy stretch of electrified line which is six tracks, right through the middle of the city, and as busy as all get out in the am and pm peaks. Running there requires concentration, but saying "There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person" is incorrect, and insulting.

Mark.

To suggest that what works in Australia, must by all means work in North America is also incorrect and insulting. As a Canadian who spent 37 years on the Canadian National Railways, I witnessed and experienced enough to have a solid foundation to base my opinion on. Thus I stand firmly behind my opinion and I refuse to get into a pissing contest with anyone who insults my opinion. I had enough of that childish and simplistic garbage from management on CN and now that I'm retired, I find that life is really too short to waste my time getting all bent out of shape over it.

[marknewton]

1.  Actually I am a frieght train conductor who works in Commuter train territory, so I do know what kinds of things Commutrer train crews confront.

Not the same thing at all. We share our line with freight trains day and night, but I wouldn't presume to know what their crews are up against - their situation is quite different.

2.  The rule book says that both members of a train crew are responsible for the safe opperation of their train.  The rule book also states that each crew member has the responsibility to remind their co-workers to follow the rules, including the one that states that employees must be alert and atentive while on the job.  Clearly Mark, if you have had trouble with inatentive crewmembers it is your fault for not correcting that situation. 

Spare me the lecture - we don't have a "rule book", we have a number of separate documents such as the TOM, OMET, NWP, etc. There's nothing in any of ours like the one you've quoted.

The fact is, there's a world of difference between what the "rule book" says, and what actually happens on the road, which you would acknowledge if you were being completely honest. Even the "100%ers" slip up sometimes.

Mark.

[CN9625]

 You hit the nail right on the head, employee cutbacks are a major problem when it comes to public safety! If there was a second engineer 26 people WOULD still be alive today as he/she would have been there to see the signals and stop the train.

[marknewton]

There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person on a busy rail line especially in an urban area. Multi track mixed with single track aggravates the situation.

That's an opinion which is at odds with reality. There are any number of urban railways I could cite that are far busier than those in North America, and which have anything up to 12 separate tracks, and yet they operate quite safely and happily with just one bloke up the front. My own railway has a lengthy stretch of electrified line which is six tracks, right through the middle of the city, and as busy as all get out in the am and pm peaks. Running there requires concentration, but saying "There's just way too much going on in the head end for just one person" is incorrect, and insulting.

Mark.

[css2004]

Apparently you're not doing your job completely.  It is your responsibility to remind the conductor to perform his duties, by the rules.  I would never trust my life with the engineer, not that I don't trust him, but that we are human.  There have been countless times, where both the Engineer and I  have had to remind the other of something coming up.  Situations occur all the time and because of the diligence of both crew members in the cab, most are averted.  You might get irritated because your conductor's a chatter box, but he may be keeping you awake during the late night run to nowhere.  You should really thank him for it.

[zardoz]

 1.  Actually I am a frieght train conductor who works in Commuter train territory, so I do know what kinds of things Commutrer train crews confront.

That almost qualifies you to comment on what the suburban crews have to deal with.

Almost.