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Everyone is missing the obvious in the Metrolink wreck.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, September 18, 2008 10:07 AM

 SRen wrote:
Why hasn't anyone pointed out the fact that having passenger train engineers working alone in a locomotive cab is a recipe for disaster? 

There's a reason why many states ban teens from driving with other teens in the car - they aren't paying attention to the road.

Who's to say that the two people in the cab might not get into a spirited discussion of sports, politics, what-have-you?  Are they paying attention to the road?  Not if they're trying to make their point!

There's a reason why airport shuttle trains don't have collisions.  None of those that I've seen can - they either run alone or on separate tracks.  The one I've seen that had two trains running on a shared track ran on the same drive cable.  Only a broken cable could possibly allow them to be in the same place at the same time. 

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Posted by selector on Thursday, September 18, 2008 9:33 AM
It would take many empirically tested trials with volunteers on purely robotic trains (no humans aboard) to see if the human factor could be safely withdrawn from the management of the train.  Later, it would take volunteers commuting in pilotless trains (for want of a better term that I can think of at the moment) for years to see if their counterparts on trains still piloted by humans fared worse or better under the same conditions.
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Posted by ndbprr on Thursday, September 18, 2008 9:27 AM
I agree that two people is not the answer because ALL people are fallable as has been stated here in several replies.  Computer technology and GPS can be far more accurate and shut down a system if there is an error.  There are planes flying that basically land themselves but it isn't heralded because people have a misconception and have seen too much from Hollywood who thrives on reporting wrong information to sell movies.  I ride several airport train shuttles that have no one on them yet they do not crash into each other. Give me the techie solution every time. Reports are the engineer was not the upstanding individual he was being made out to be and had a very troubled past.  In my opinion do not rule out an act of suicide just yet as he never even attempted to stop.  It is a plausible reason that needs to be considered along with all the evidence.
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Posted by marknewton on Thursday, September 18, 2008 8:01 AM
 SRen wrote:

Why hasn't anyone pointed out the fact that having passenger train engineers working alone in a locomotive cab is a recipe for disaster?  I know from personal experience that having a second person in a locomotive cab can prevent accidents, as a frieght train conductor I have intervened on several occasions to prevent an engineer from making a mistake. 


And I know from personal experience that having others in the cab can be more of a hindrance than a help.
I was working a train once with three driver trainees and an instructor up the front with me, and we all missed a particular signal...

So I don't think that one-man operation is automatically a recipe for disaster, each situation needs to be considered on its merits. Our suburban and interurban EMUs are all equipped with deadman and task-based vigilance control, so for us having a second person in the cab would offer no real benefit.

Cheers,

Mark.
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Posted by MerrilyWeRollAlong on Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:33 AM

I don't think having a second person in the cab to act as a second pair of eyes would make things safer.  Wasn't there an accident in Chicago like a year ago where an Amtrak train rear ended a NS freight train even though there were 3 people in the cab? I believe the engineer was an engineer-in-training, the other two people were the instructors and all of them misread a signal telling them to stop?  Perhaps someone from Chicagoland can verify this.

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Posted by sgtbean1 on Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:13 AM
 SRen wrote:

Why hasn't anyone pointed out the fact that having passenger train engineers working alone in a locomotive cab is a recipe for disaster?

Well, I'm not sure if that is true.

In the EU, most trains - freight or passenger - only have the engineer in the cab. Freights normally don't even have a conductor. Yet very few accidents happen that can be traced back to grave human error preventable by adding an extra crew member.

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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:12 AM

If more eyes are better, how come there are so many freight crashes ???
even with 3 pair of eyes in cab  these people manage to rear end or head end other freights often at restricted speed.

I do work alone and feel anyone in cab is a distraction, be it a student, roadforeman, conductor , or fellow engineer, you find them either sleeping, reading, yapping on a phone, or keeping useless conversation about things not concerning safe operation of train.

 just my $0.02

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:03 AM
 SRen wrote:

Why hasn't anyone pointed out the fact that having passenger train engineers working alone in a locomotive cab is a recipe for disaster?  I know from personal experience that having a second person in a locomotive cab can prevent accidents, as a frieght train conductor I have intervened on several occasions to prevent an engineer from making a mistake. 

Now I am not refering to "dumping the air" intervention here, just reminding an engineer that he should be operating at restricted speed or that he should be preparing to stop at the next signal are things that I occasionally have to do in the course of my duties.  Have there been occasions were I felt that I may have just prevented an accident?  YES!!!

Before the Feds start insisting on mandating Positive Train Seperation technology maybe Amtrak and the commuter agencies should consider putting a second employee back into locomotive cabs.  After all, Commercial Airliners fly with both a Pilot and Co-Pilot in the cockpit, why should passenger trains be any different? 

 

It certainly has been overlooked in all media coverage of this wreck.  And it should be carefully examined.  However, it will be pointed out that on many rapid transit systems, and on lines where there are MU (electric multiple unit) trains the engineer/moterman has been the sole crew member at the head end and there has been a remarkable safety record. It should be noted that either positive train control or "fail safe" trippers are already a part of most of these systesm, too. Better and more intense training --especially in the area of safety-- and more dedication (job, work, safety) on the part of employees will also go a long way; i.e. career choices not picking jobs for pay scale and benefits.

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Posted by zardoz on Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:33 AM
 SRen wrote:

Why hasn't anyone pointed out the fact that having passenger train engineers working alone in a locomotive cab is a recipe for disaster?  I know from personal experience that having a second person in a locomotive cab can prevent accidents, as a frieght train conductor I have intervened on several occasions to prevent an engineer from making a mistake

No doubt that is true; however, I've lost count as to how many times I've had to wake up the conductor so he could go perform his duties.

 SRen wrote:

....Have there been occasions were I felt that I may have just prevented an accident?  YES!!!

See above.

 SRen wrote:

....After all, Commercial Airliners fly with both a Pilot and Co-Pilot in the cockpit, why should passenger trains be any different? 

Well, for one, if the engineer gets sick, he can stop his train just about anywhere he's not blocking a crossing and wait for a replacement--not quite so easy at 35,000'.

Additionally, I disagree that having two persons in the cab is the answer.  I've had many occasions where the constant chatter from a motormouth was so distracting it was difficult to concentrate.  And for the short runs of passenger service, cab monotony should not be that much of an issue--it's not like they're running at 3am after being on duty for 10 hours after getting called out on your rest.

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Posted by RABEL on Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:30 AM
I've always felt the reduction of Train crews were an accident waiting to happen.
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Posted by videomaker on Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:12 AM
 I agree with you ,but the last Amtrak train(Tx.eagle) I saw stop in Ft Worth ,Tx. had 2 men in the engine...
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Everyone is missing the obvious in the Metrolink wreck.
Posted by SRen on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:22 PM

Why hasn't anyone pointed out the fact that having passenger train engineers working alone in a locomotive cab is a recipe for disaster?  I know from personal experience that having a second person in a locomotive cab can prevent accidents, as a frieght train conductor I have intervened on several occasions to prevent an engineer from making a mistake. 

Now I am not refering to "dumping the air" intervention here, just reminding an engineer that he should be operating at restricted speed or that he should be preparing to stop at the next signal are things that I occasionally have to do in the course of my duties.  Have there been occasions were I felt that I may have just prevented an accident?  YES!!!

Before the Feds start insisting on mandating Positive Train Seperation technology maybe Amtrak and the commuter agencies should consider putting a second employee back into locomotive cabs.  After all, Commercial Airliners fly with both a Pilot and Co-Pilot in the cockpit, why should passenger trains be any different? 

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