The media are reporting that the Metrolink engineer missed a signal that caused the collision. I thought there were at least two people in the cab watching things... and that there were over-rides in place that would stop the train in the event that the engineer missed a signal.
I know that the media are premature in blaming the engineer when no investigation has yet be undertaken...
According to the NTSB investigation and testimony from a couple of teenagers, the engineer appears to have been text messaging them with his cell phone and possibly wasn't even watching for the signal.
Commuter lines usually have only the engineer in the cab because the conductor is back in the coaches collecting tickets.
Its prety easy to miss a signal. The every day reppitition that train drivers/train engineers go through is a facotor. Sun can be a cause as can fatigue or disstraction. Assumption can be a cause, drivers/engineers can and have assumed that a signal is showing a proceed aspect becuase it """normaly always does when i come through this place"""
Im not sure what safety systems you have in place but up until a few years ago, we only had AWS (automatic warning system) here in the UK. This warns of a danger signal asspect, the driver has to cancel the visual and audible warning in the cab within 3 seconds to cancel it or the brakes are applied automaticly. This was OK but the driver could still blow the red light even affter cancelling the warning. We had some real bad wrecks over the years until TPWS (train protection warning system) came in around 8 years ago but at huge cost.
This system makes it alsmost pysicly impossible for a train to pass a red. I was talking to a guy a few hours ago about how many hundreds of thousands of miles of trackage you guys have over there in the U.S. Who would fund the massive costs involved in funding a TPWS based system for what is assentialy a freight based rail system?? And theres the rub, we have an assentialy passenger based system where passenger trains are first and freight second whereas you guys are the opposite! I supose a system could be fitted where there are a lot of passenger trains but where do you draw the line?
Most Commuter Trains (and Amtrak) in the US have just one man in the Cab, the Engineer. As Boston uses the same sub-contractor to run there trains, I would think Metrolink would work the same way (correct me if I'm wrong).
The Conductor is back in the Passenger Cars with Assistance Conductors (formally called Trainmen) for every 2 or 3 cars. In most cases, Engineers belong to the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Conductors to the United Transportaion Union.
Freight Trains will have at least two men in the Cab, Engineer and Conductor. The "Crew Cab" makes up for lack of a caboose. They even have a third seat for a Brakeman, Check Engineer, or Guest. (FRA, NTSB, Union, Management)
Passenger and most freight locomotives have an "Alerter". If the Engineer has not adjusted the Throttle or Brake for about 20 seconds, an alarm and flashing light goes off. If he has not moved a control or hit the Alerter Reset button (or wand) in 10 more seconds, the normal breaking is applied to a full stop. Most cases, diesel to idle, Reverser to Reverse then Forward, then he can again accelerate to track speed. The dreaded "Penalty Stop".
In areas that have Automatic Track Control, passing a red signal trips an inductor and forces a Penalty Stop. Acceeding track speed by about 5mph creates a Penalty Stop.
Maybe the west coast can learn from the northeast, spend your money on safety.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
You can't rely on google earth. One photograph from a satellite could be a year old, while the one right beside it could be 10 years old.
Just because google says its not there, doesn't mean its true. Wait for someone who knows the area to comment. And even if the DS gave both trains permission to be in the same block, at least one would have to be doing restricted speed.
Either way, someones getting fired.
In most places there is nothing that will prevent a train from blowing a red if the crew misses a signal or the crew is incapacitated. There certainly isn't on the railroads here in Canada.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
Ulrich wrote:I thought ... that there were over-rides in place that would stop the train in the event that the engineer missed a signal.
Usually not, in the US. Apparently in this case it set off an alarm in the dispatcher's office, but there was nothing to brake the train.
simple awnser to this one.. not paying attention to where he was at in relation to where the next signal was...
csx engineer
Just read these two webpages and see how much trust and faith you place in our current signal systems.
I fear that FALSE CLEAR signals has been declared strictly "OFF LIMITS" by railroad management. We so very very BADLY need to focus in on this very CENTRAL and KEY issue of this horrible crash.
There certainly have been a LOT of DOCUMENTED issues----problems with our signaling systems. This web page covers documented issues FRA from `1995 to 2004.
THere are more than 40 Issue Categories on this page (Yes 40 - Truly AMAZING and SHOCKING )
http://www.ironwoodtech.com/researchcenter/falseproceeds/falseproceeds.htm This next NTSB page focuses on Phantom Signal indications from a January 18, 2006 Crash on the NS in Alabama. If you study this page you can see how easy it is to MISREAD some signals at certain times of the day or year: (PDF Document here) : http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/RAB0703.pdf
-- Daniel
daniel3197 wrote: you can see how easy it is to MISREAD some signals at certain times of the day or year
In this case the track is north-south and sun azimuth was 250.5 degrees-- so sounds unlikely.
(I'm too lazy to do the calculations for the NS collision, but probably the sun was shining directly on the signal?)
I don't see many RR signals set up like traffic signals. They all seem to be a single light, showing different colours. (spotlight signals maybe?)
Just a thought, but traffic signals for automobiles are designed in the standard position, so someone colourblind can still see the "aspect" if you will. Would having a system like this on the RR make it easier to see in the bright light?
Generally speaking, and from what I've experienced, a missed signal is usually the result of inattentiveness. If the passenger train was taking the siding to meet the UP train (as is my understanding), the crew of the pasenger train would likely have encountered some sort of restricting signal going into the siding, telling them to be prepared to stop at the next home signal (not that taking a siding wouldn't be a big enough clue that you were going to be stopping ;^) ).
Karl
CSX Train Dispatcher
DMUinCT wrote: Most Commuter Trains (and Amtrak) in the US have just one man in the Cab, the Engineer. As Boston uses the same sub-contractor to run there trains, I would think Metrolink would work the same way (correct me if I'm wrong). The Conductor is back in the Passenger Cars with Assistance Conductors (formally called Trainmen) for every 2 or 3 cars. In most cases, Engineers belong to the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Conductors to the United Transportaion Union.
I've ridden one train (MBTA train from Fitchburg to Boston North Station) which had, to my knowledge, only 3 passengers: me and two friends of mine. Pretty much all the crew (engineer and two conductors/assistant conductors were riding in the (leading) cab car. There may have been more assistants in the remainder of the train, but I'm not sure, as one of the crew members in the cab car went out to the vestuable to talk to a passenger on the platform.
That wouldn't be true on a train with more passengers, like the one in LA, obviously. I don't know about when the loco is leading either.
Nagrom1 wrote: Just a thought, but traffic signals for automobiles are designed in the standard position, so someone colourblind can still see the "aspect" if you will. Would having a system like this on the RR make it easier to see in the bright light?
From a distance or at night you wouldn't be able to tell the relative position on the head so it wouldn't make much difference. The key is you have to do something about the signal when you see it.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
daniel3197 wrote: Just read these two webpages and see how much trust and faith you place in our current signal systems. I fear that FALSE CLEAR signals has been declared strictly "OFF LIMITS" by railroad management. We so very very BADLY need to focus in on this very CENTRAL and KEY issue of this horrible crash. There certainly have been a LOT of DOCUMENTED issues----problems with our signaling systems. This web page covers documented issues FRA from `1995 to 2004.THere are more than 40 Issue Categories on this page (Yes 40 - Truly AMAZING and SHOCKING )http://www.ironwoodtech.com/researchcenter/falseproceeds/falseproceeds.htm This next NTSB page focuses on Phantom Signal indications from a January 18, 2006 Crash on the NS in Alabama. If you study this page you can see how easy it is to MISREAD some signals at certain times of the day or year: (PDF Document here) : http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/RAB0703.pdf -- Daniel
Nothing shocking about your first one, there may be 40 categories but many have only a single entry. Also note that all of them could be verified after the fact. By now the NTSB will have checked the signal functioning and signal sighting, they haven't found anything out of order. Also there are many different signal systems represented in that database including the advanced one used by Amtrak on the NEC.
Your second citation concerns a situation where the sunlight could cause a signal to be misread, that is always a potential problem and is the reason that many signals have large hoods. But with the facing of the signal at CP Toponaga, the time of day, and the direction the passenger train was moving it is very unlikely to be the problem in this case. The NTSB will take a locomotive of the same model at the same time of day and if at all possible under similar sky conditions and look at the visibility of that signal. I am sure if you could have gotten near the location either on Sunday or today you would have seen a Metrolink F59PH moving towards that signal at about 4:23pm.
A more likely problem would be something happening to distract the Engineer.
A key indicator will be when the Radio Recording is played back, did the Metrolink Engineer call out, and the Conductor acknowledge the signal at Lassen Street as being at Approach. If they did that, then did the Conductor remind the Engineer when he gave him a highball from the Chatsworth Station stop that the last signal was at Approach.
EJE818 wrote:I wonder if there are going to be changes to the operating modes because of this, like mandating new rules that require two people in the cab of a commuter train. If there were two people in the cab this probably wouldn't have happened.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
dehusman wrote: Nagrom1 wrote: Just a thought, but traffic signals for automobiles are designed in the standard position, so someone colourblind can still see the "aspect" if you will. Would having a system like this on the RR make it easier to see in the bright light?From a distance or at night you wouldn't be able to tell the relative position on the head so it wouldn't make much difference. The key is you have to do something about the signal when you see it. Dave H.
Most new signal installations have multiple lights on a single head. In bright direct sunlight you can't always tell which light of a multi aspect signal is lit. (I'm talking about signal heads that have separate green, yellow, red lights per head instead of a single light (searchlight type) that changes color.)
I was stopped at an absolute located on a signal bridge at Council Bluffs one late afternoon. When the dispatcher asked if we had started to move, I had to ask him to talk me by it because it was impossible to tell what it was displaying with the sun shining on it. All the lights looked the same.
Another time, we came down on a signal that I expected to be (at the time) a stop and proceed. I knew we were following a train. We came around a curve and when I first saw the signal (about a half mile ahead), I called out "approach" to the conductor. He saw it, called approach, wrote it down on his conductor's report and called it over the radio.
Since I was expecting a red one, I had us down to about 8 mph coming around the curve. I let our speed pickup to about 15 mph when about 5 cars from it, the signal looked different. The color of the light had changed from a yellow color to more of a white color. I knew this signal couldn't display a lunar. That's when I also noticed it was the bottom light that was lit, the one that should have had a red lens. As I applied a full service brake application, I saw a red tinge from a shard of what had been the red lens has we rolled by it to a stop.
We reported it to the dispatcher and that we had gotten by it. He told us he would report the damaged signal to the signal department and to procede at restricted speed to the next signal. We had moved about a quarter mile when he called back and told us to stop. About 5 minutes later he told us to again procede. I never heard anything more about it.
Jeff
"The sun was in my eyes" is not a valid excuse. Nor is not seeing the signal head at all. Train crews are charged with knowing their territory including the location of every signal, and if you don't see the signal because it was knocked over a few minutes earlier by a runaway garbage truck, you are responsible for treating that signal as displaying its most restrictive aspect. If the sun is shining in your eyes on the signal and there is any chance that you might misinterpret the aspect of the signal, you are required by rule to treat that signal as displaying its most restrictive aspect.
Only in the case of a false-clear or in the case where a searchlight can display a lunar or red, and the lens is gone (as Jeff describes above) so it "displays lunar", is there any forgiveness. This is one reason why searchlight signals are being phased out.
When in doubt, you stop your train. Guessing is not a substitute for the safe course. No one who works for a railroad would do that.
RWM
Jeff, your account of the broken red lens brings to mind an interesting (and disturbing) possibility: vandalism. In the Chatsworth Metrolink accident, could the signal be disabled or tampered with in such a way that a malfunction would NOT register in the Pomona dispatch center?
--Jon
In the old steam days negineers would miss a signal by looking straight at it and seeing breen when in fact it would be red. He had attended the fire his fireman had messed up and paused to look at signals, straring at the orange fire made a green dot in his eye and breifly looking right at the signal would be it. This type of story seems to existin most countrys , and occasionaly but rarely result in a bad accident.
Of course this shouldn't be the case today.
zardoz wrote:All this talk of mis-read signals causes me to wonder if misreading of signals would be reduced if the railroads went back to using semaphore indications? Not easy to misread those.
Or CPLs!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
....I suppose we have to assume signals that must be read by humans...will not be 100% since we all can commit errors.
Quentin
tree68 wrote: zardoz wrote:All this talk of mis-read signals causes me to wonder if misreading of signals would be reduced if the railroads went back to using semaphore indications? Not easy to misread those.Or CPLs!
Sorry, CPL? It;s pretty clear that it;s not open though...
-Morgan
Flashwave wrote: tree68 wrote: zardoz wrote:All this talk of mis-read signals causes me to wonder if misreading of signals would be reduced if the railroads went back to using semaphore indications? Not easy to misread those.Or CPLs!Sorry, CPL? It's pretty clear that it's not open though...
Color Position Light
The one in the picture is former B&O at Deshler, OH.
As shown, the signal displays stop. Diagonal lamps in yellow would indicate approach, and greens in a vertical line would be clear. Plus all the usual variations (and there were plenty). Gives you two ways to read the signal.
IIRC, Pennsy used the same thing, but they didn't use the colors, only white or a variation thereof.
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