Graffiti is telling us something...

[zugmann]

Broken windows is easy as the windows don't move thousands of miles.  I do not know if the theory can work in such a distance.  Plus the cars aren't usually owned by the railroad, and I doubt First Union (or any other leaser or private company) would pay a bill for a railroad removing graffiti.

[Erie Lackawanna]

True - the railroads could care less - and I don't blame them.

The issue for me is the broken window theory.  If you leave a window broken, people will break the other windows as they pass by.

I'm not honestly saying I have any sort of workable solution to this.  I'm just saying it perpetuates itself because it's not removed.

[zugmann]

As long as the car can carry revenue and all needed markings and safety devices are in place, I really think the railroads could care less.  It is a fact of life - just like advertising on every square inch of the country.

I've seen some pretty neat stuff out there.  I could getr upset - but life is too short to worry about covered hoppers.  

[Modelcar]

.....Believe we need a methiod to punish the perpetraters instead putting it on the victims.

[tree68]

Many communities have passed very stringent graffiti laws, mostly to combat gang graffiti. For example, in my county you can be cited if you do not remove graffiti from your property within 24 hours. Just out of curiousity, does anyone know how/if the railroads are subject to any of these types of laws?

Certainly an incentive to reduce dwell times - just move the car out of there.  Doesn't answer the question of cars arriving with grafitti already on them, though...

[CSXDixieLine]

Many communities have passed very stringent graffiti laws, mostly to combat gang graffiti. For example, in my county you can be cited if you do not remove graffiti from your property within 24 hours. Just out of curiousity, does anyone know how/if the railroads are subject to any of these types of laws?

[Anonymous]

An IMRL conductor told me a story a long time ago (I think it would've been '97) about how he worked a yard in East St. Louis before he hired on with I&M Rail Link.  He said a couple carmen reported some kids were spray-painting cars in one end of the yard and they caught them (I assume it was the railroad police/security).  He said one of the morons tried to run, but his baggy pants tripped him up and when they wrestled him down his pants were down to his knees, underwear too.

As he related the story to me, the security guys administered their own sentence for his crime:  They took the two cans he had on him and spray-painted his butt.

[Lord Atmo]

Just about the WORST grafitti job I ever saw was on an SP SD40T-2.The entire engine had been painted yellow,with the words "UNION PACIFIC" on the side.This looked  quite proffesional,so must have taken quite a while to paint.Where was security?

Seems to be common. That was done to every single CNW unit i have ever seen too.

Actually graffiti is on almost all rolling stock around here. The worst I've seen was on a CNW malt hopper. Someone put "SUX" under the big black "CNW" on the side. I've seen it on at least 3 too. Can't you MILW heads keep your opinions to yourselves?

 

[fluff]

Where do they get their paint?  Probably the same place you do, except you pay for yours before you take it out of the store....

exactly....these inbreds also get free healthcare, dont have to work, and live off the taxpayers. we have a great government!!!

[espeefoamer]

Just about the WORST grafitti job I ever saw was on an SP SD40T-2.The entire engine had been painted yellow,with the words "UNION PACIFIC" on the side.This looked  quite proffesional,so must have taken quite a while to paint.Where was security?

[joegreen]

JoeGreen,

 

You seem to know a lot about this topic.

Could you please post a photo of you hands so we can check them for overspray?

 

I havnt heard much about overspray since the invention of gloves ;)

[SW 1200]

JoeGreen,

 

You seem to know a lot about this topic.

Could you please post a photo of your hands so we can check them for overspray?

 

[joegreen]

Where do they get their paint?  Probably the same place you do, except you pay for yours before you take it out of the store....

 

They rack paint from the mom and pop stores because of little security. They buy from the big stores like walmart if they have to because of security cameras.

Otherwise the most of the time they buy graffiti paint which isnt really available to the general public

www.store-montana.com

www.mtncolors.com

www.molotow.com

[DanLW]

I wonder what a full graffiti cleanup program would cost us?

I mean, the railroads would have to hire a ton of new people and purchase a lot of new equipment for these cleanup shops.  Not to mention relabeling the cars with all the required information.  If they did that, they wouldn't just absorb the costs.  Likely they would increase the amount of money they charge to ship stuff.  And if the suppliers have to pay more, they're going to have to increase the price of their product.  And if they increase the price of their product, the store will have to charge more.

In the end, it may only cost us consumers a few cents for each item we purchase.  But with costs already going up across the board because of our bad energy policies, every cent counts.

[J. Edgar]

....Don't know the rail miles of count now but it never was even one million.  It's now counted in hundred thousands of miles or less.

 peak milage in the US was around a quarter million just before WW1 IIRC....route miles...not track miles

[tree68]

Where do they get their paint?  Probably the same place you do, except you pay for yours before you take it out of the store....

[vsmith]

...but the status quo is an open invitation to anyone who wants to cause major havoc...

Its already happened out here, where a BNSF train was derailed and it turned out it was some little punka$$ who had broke the lock on a switch, waited and thru it as the train went by, he was GD lucky he wasnt crushed, but the train was going slow so the wreckage was limited. Needless to say the little punka$$ will have lots of time to contemplate his moronity rotting in prison.

But its sadly not hard at all to cause complete mayhem if your intent on doing so, the French Resistance caused tremendous headaches for the Nazies during the occupation by doing so with the railroads.

[Erie Lackawanna]

I went to the AAR site to get the real info (figures are as of 2006) --

140,490 miles of track in the USA.

1,346,507 freight cars in service in the USA.

 

[Modelcar]

....Don't know the rail miles of count now but it never was even one million.  It's now counted in hundred thousands of miles or less.

[Erie Lackawanna]

Well, I happen to think 6,000 cars is a lot to keep clean.  It's all about resources.  I have no arguement with the fact that railroads don't have the resources... and I never said that they did.

I stated, and I stand by this statment, that the solution (or best medicine) is to remove and repaint quickly.

Does that mean it can be done?  Anything can be done... it might be cost prohibitive, but that doesn't change the fact that it would work if it was afordable.

I know this, 30 years ago everyone in New York was saying nothing could be done about the subway graffiti.  Sure glad some folks decided not to listen to them.

[BaltACD]

How many cars does the subway own? how many miles of track do they cover? Not very much. Same goes for the Metra, Metrolink, or CTA. Most city passenger lines can keep trains clean just because they dont have alot to cover so its easy to get clean. Freight railroads however......millions of miles of track.....hundreds of thousands of rolling stock and engines. Not so easy to cover. Especially when the general public isnt as involved with freight railroads as city transportation

Over 6,000 cars and at least 800 miles of track.  Is that really "not very much?"

Not only is it 'not very much' but each of the cars passes through a service facility daily where action can be taken immediately. 

Freight cars only go to a service facility when they have a actual mechanical defect or when their braking system is due for it's statutory retesting, and with that being said those service facilities do not have the ability to repaint cars.

[Ted Marshall]

Too much time spent worrying about those potential terrorists photographers getting too close to the property.

Those in authority are far more concerned about keeping the population afraid of their own shadows (which permits them to pass laws they choose and then call it a matter of 'security'), and passing "feel-safe" legislation (airport "security'), instead of actually taking steps to reduce the likelyhood of something bad happening.

I agree Jim. Way too much money poured into and resources wasted putting on a front in order to soothe our minds. Way too little concern with the real threats. Bulk HAZMAT on rail is a potential WMD if it falls into the wrong hands. More attention must be paid to places where bulk HAZMAT is unloaded and stored NOT just where it's loaded.

I think that if you get caught doing ANYTHING to a railcar that has a HAZMAT placard on it or any adjoining car they should throw the book at you and treat you as a potential terrorist. That may curb the practice but enforcement is key. The way I see it local authorities need to take this threat seriously and not pass the buck to the railroads.

When I get approached by the R.R. cops, which is not very often, I remind them that I am armed with a cell phone ready to report anything suspicious I may see like say...someone tampering with a tank car. They've told me good...there's only two or three of us for 300 miles and we can't be everywhere. I've even gotten some of their cell phone numbers. The local cops (city, county) I talked with usually tell me that there's very little time in their daily patrols to worry about what's going on on the railroad. I can't even recall the number of times I've witnessed traspassers within eyeshot of municipal officers and nothing being done about it.

I suppose the problem with graffiti down here doesn't even come close to other places to the north but it does exist. As you know I photograph rail cars and have found graffiti done on cars since I've been there last so I know where and when it was done. I just haven't caught anyone doing it which goes to show how elusive these little weasels are.

[SW 1200]

Joe Green,

 Yeah, we can agree to disagree.  It's cool.

Wait, you're not an ex Pittsburgh Steeler are you?

 If you are, I take my original comment back.

 

TonyM.

[selector]

I have mixed feelings about the subject, but I tend to feel negative about the act.  In some ways it is a harmless form of expression, but it is more than that.  It is a defacement for which permission was not given.  Ethically, if the owner of a surface or item on which the surface is important for corporate purposes (image) would not in principle consent if asked for permission to do the defacing, then the act is trespass.  In that respect, it shows a lack of respect for property.  I would not want it done to myself, my children, my house, my car, and so forth...and fortunately these artists don't take it to that extreme.  But their act is almost always covert, which tells me something about the nature of the act and about the nature of those who commit it.   I'm afraid, as I said, my view isn't very positive.

[joegreen]

Yes, some of the graffiti is artistic but the "artists" are criminals who deface property that does not belong to them.  Although I enjoy the arts and painting, I think the graffiti thing has gotten out of hand.  And although it is difficult to keep people from doing it, I would never condone it.  I think those who do it are losers. 

 

a signature on one of the posts:

"graffiti--a way of life"

My take:

"graffiti--get a life"

 

TonyM

yeah yeah yeah

"your" take exactly. not mine

[joegreen]

Joe,

There aren't a couple million miles of track as far as I can tell?  Internet search says it's under 150,000 miles. 

How many engines does the UP have?  It has to be less than 10,000 based on their numbering.

I agree with your point about passengers seeing the old damage and not the new.  But I don't agree that that railroads can't clean it up too.

Charles

Add all the engines of every freight railroad, freight cars of every freight railroad and track miles of every freight railroad in North America which would include Canada and Mexico which as we know does handle US freight cars. freight cars and engines have to add up to at least a hundred thousand. Miles i have no clue really now. Im basing that off of what a few other people told me but now i dont think they are that smart anyway. This being i dont really want to argue about that issue anymore

I dont really know what to say other than freight railroads must care about graffiti right? They arent making a great attempt to clean it up. Though i have to see it would be a massive cleanup if they did try. Like a miracle. To most railfans yes something must be done but i cant remember the last time a frieght railroad came out publicly and announced that something must be done immediately to stop this. The subway did and it turned out well for them.....

Im done talkin, i dont want to turn this thread into a huge flame ware and most likely it would be sparked be me. Plus i ran out of ideas

[SW 1200]

Yes, some of the graffiti is artistic but the "artists" are criminals who deface property that does not belong to them.  Although I enjoy the arts and painting, I think the graffiti thing has gotten out of hand.  And although it is difficult to keep people from doing it, I would never condone it.  I think those who do it are losers. 

 

a signature on one of the posts:

"graffiti--a way of life"

My take:

"graffiti--get a life"

 

TonyM

[Erie Lackawanna]

Joe,

There aren't a couple million miles of track as far as I can tell?  Internet search says it's under 150,000 miles. 

How many engines does the UP have?  It has to be less than 10,000 based on their numbering.

I agree with your point about passengers seeing the old damage and not the new.  But I don't agree that that railroads can't clean it up too.

Charles

[joegreen]

How many cars does the subway own? how many miles of track do they cover? Not very much. Same goes for the Metra, Metrolink, or CTA. Most city passenger lines can keep trains clean just because they dont have alot to cover so its easy to get clean. Freight railroads however......millions of miles of track.....hundreds of thousands of rolling stock and engines. Not so easy to cover. Especially when the general public isnt as involved with freight railroads as city transportation

Over 6,000 cars and at least 800 miles of track (off the top of my head).  Is that really "not very much.

 

Yes it is, again i like to point out #1 Freight RRs have a couple million miles of track on top of hundreds of thousands of equipment #2 and most importantly the general public doesnt spend most of their time around or riding freights. The problem with the subway was graffiti was not only on the outside but it was everywhere on the inside where the public has to "look" at it every waking second while they ride it. The city had to do somethin with all the compaints they were getting. Actually we can thank the New York subway for the way the freight railroads are today. Because of their cleanin all the trains constantly the artists had to go somewhere....to the freights they went. I got a book on the whole matter from the perspective of the artist. Very interesting.

[Anonymous]

I see some that's nicely done but most of it is just chicken scratch. I don't condone graffiti but I have to admit I have seen some true works of art. You have to have skill and imagination to create the elaberate murals.

Graffiti will always be around, you will never stop it completely. The taggers that do it know where to go to stay out of site and when to strike. Some taggers are just artists who have talent but use it in the wrong manner. The others that do it are gang members, so anyone thinking of painting over or crossing out their work better be careful.