Given the general nature of broadcast radio at the time (as already discussed here), it might be interesting to pass some time scouting the dial for something you wanted to listen to. And if you find it, maybe you'd pick up that book, or knitting, or just watch the passing scenery. With accompaniment.
Or maybe even a ball game!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 wrote:Given the general nature of broadcast radio at the time (as already discussed here), it might be interesting to pass some time scouting the dial for something you wanted to listen to. And if you find it, maybe you'd pick up that book, or knitting, or just watch the passing scenery. With accompaniment. Or maybe even a ball game!
I remain unconvinced that AM radio reception, even if good at the start, would stay that way for very long on a speeding train in 1937. Any decent performance would more likely be the exception rather than the rule. Anything with vacuum tube technology required constant maintenance, and I am certain radio sets on a jostling train broke down frequently.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
alphas wrote:Some of the reponders to this are forgetting the many comedy and variety shows on the radio in the days before TV. I suspect these got at least as many listeners as the music stations on any train. And the AM reception, especially at night, was better in those days, especially since most of the small town stations only broadcast from sunrise to sunset.
What intriques me is that if on early trains the availability of radios, AM or FM, were so popular, why weren't they offered in the 1960's? By that time, I'm not aware of any first-class passenger train that offered that extra.
....My judgement on AM radios of the era we're discussing comes from the radios mostly in my home.
Not sure I agree with the thought that any radio with vacuum tube technology required constant maintenance....I simply don't remember it that way.
Now at the beginning of the TV era....In our case {In western Pennsylvania}, our first TV sets...{first one, Air King brand...summer of 1948}, seemed to be more sensitive to using up tubes....Too much heat...?? I don't know....Amp. tubes working too hard and heat...again I don't know, but seemed I was {quite often}, bringing home the tube checker from work....
But simply do not remember that having to be done with the tube radios in the late 30's, etc....Sure must have been some, but don't remember our radio at home being out of service so often for such a reason.
PS: I did forget to comment of such comedy and variety shows early on in radio as mentioned above.
Quentin
Modelcar wrote:....My judgement on AM radios of the era we're discussing comes from the radios mostly in my home.Not sure I agree with the thought that any radio with vacuum tube technology required constant maintenance....I simply don't remember it that way.Now at the beginning of the TV era....In our case {In western Pennsylvania}, our first TV sets...{first one, Air King brand...summer of 1948}, seemed to be more sensitive to using up tubes....Too much heat...?? I don't know....Amp. tubes working too hard and heat...again I don't know, but seemed I was {quite often}, bringing home the tube checker from work....But simply do not remember that having to be done with the tube radios in the late 30's, etc....Sure must have been some, but don't remember our radio at home being out of service so often for such a reason.
....Sounds like me recently {with another product}. Just a few years before the onslought of digital cameras took off I had spent a few dollars {for me}, on a pretty good Canon EOS film camera.
Good camera, but Bad timing.
rjemery wrote: tree68 wrote:Given the general nature of broadcast radio at the time (as already discussed here), it might be interesting to pass some time scouting the dial for something you wanted to listen to. And if you find it, maybe you'd pick up that book, or knitting, or just watch the passing scenery. With accompaniment. Or maybe even a ball game!I remain unconvinced that AM radio reception, even if good at the start, would stay that way for very long on a speeding train in 1937. Any decent performance would more likely be the exception rather than the rule. Anything with vacuum tube technology required constant maintenance, and I am certain radio sets on a jostling train broke down frequently.
Tube type radios for me have been very durable. An example was the Johnson Viking transmitter I had for the car. In the 5 years I used it, never had to replace a tube. And since it was Chrystal controlled, there was never much drift. The Jeep of course was far more violent on a tube type than your standard sleeper, even from the 1930's.
VFO drift depended upon the design of the radio and stations on adjacent frequencies. Most folks fine tuned by ear, not using the dial display. Usually once a receiver was warmed up, the drifting should have become less noticeable. It was very common to fine tune from time to time, that was the level of technology back then. There was no expectation of solid state FM quality from the users. Normal VFO drift because of temperature was about 500hz (again based upon my old Hallicrafters S-85).
Going back to expectations again. As someone related here, the form of entertainment, and keeping up with the events of the world was by radio. Just as the TV and DVD is the base point of home entertainment today (also the computer), the technology rules the expectations we have. What took waiting til the top of the hour in the 1930's for weather as an example, we now click an icon on our desktop and get instant information. The mass distribution of music back then was radio. Now we have I-Pods, CD's which are all portable.
I can assure you, the AM band was far different than what we have today. The expectations of the quality and fidelity is worlds apart from the digital age we are in right now. I assume you have all heard a recording of Orson Wells' "War of the Worlds", or of the Hindenburg disaster. Most available now a days have been digitally remastered, so they do not reflect the actual conditions. But those were perfect examples of the technology back then. They put up with a lot more tinkering than people today.
My personal experiences and observations do not match yours, but nevertheless, I wouldn't call my overall acquaintenace with this area and time to be exhaustive. It does bring back memories, but I am hardly the one to ever want to return to a bygone technological era.
I am surprised things then worked as well as they did, but I clearly prefer the personal empowerment and communication options available presently. I often speculate what the next ten or twenty years will bring, and as those years approach, I find that my predictions were vastly underestimated.
About the only thing constant is the monetary outlay for the new wizardry.
I can assure you that long distance rail travelers appreciated the AM radio service in the 30's. Conditions were different then and so were expectations. Radio was new, popular, and the major communications and entertainment medium. The frequency band used by AM radios had about 2% - 5% the total number of uses that it has today, so interference by multiple users was far far less of a problem. The modulation swing of the FM carrier under audio was also less limited, and if a radio drifted off exact tuning, thus quality did not deteriorate as fast. Indeed one could listen to just the side band with adequate intelligibility and reasonably decent music quality.
It was something like the railroad providing magazines and newspapers in the lounge cars. Anyone else remember that?
daveklepper wrote:I can assure you that long distance rail travelers appreciated the AM radio service in the 30's. Conditions were different then and so were expectations. Radio was new, popular, and the major communications and entertainment medium.
I presume either you enjoyed the experience personally or knew of someone who did. That was the depression era, and if one could afford it, that was the way to travel to overnight destinations.
I sure don't. I began using the trains in the early 1960's. Service on the PRR B'way Ltd was the pits. Took it once and never again. The NYC's 20th Century Ltd was far better but off route for my travels.
The Super Chief and San Francisco Chief were excellent in every respect, and I rode the Sante Fe while opting to fly anywhere and everywhere else outside Santa Fe's territory. I tried to take the D&RGW's Royal Gorge when the opportunity presented itself on one occasion, but for some reason that I can not recall, it was not operating that Saturday in June, 1963.
Radio available for passengers 70 or 80 years ago was more than the equivilent of inflight movies and wi-fi today.
Making radio available made marketing sense. Have you ever noticed the railroad publicity photos from the 1920's showing a flapper in an observation car fascinated with an Atwater Kent receiver?
I remember a long dead friend telling of heading west on a zephyr in the 1960's. It was a Sunday. The bartender had the Cubs tuned in on WGN. Once the train entered Iowa, at least the Cubs were still there after the liquor had been locked down.
Victrola1 wrote:... Have you ever noticed the railroad publicity photos from the 1920's showing a flapper in an observation car fascinated with an Atwater Kent receiver?
Never saw one, but I will look out for it in any subsequent reading. Until you mentioned it, I never knew of Atwater Kent radios. There is a short article on Atwater Kent on WikiPedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atwater_kent. Circa 1950, the most prominent vendors I remember are RCA, Philco and Zenith.
Never had the pleasure of riding any Zephyr. On all the trains I did ride in the 1960's, there was never a radio that I knew about. Just as well. I truly enjoyed the quiet atmosphere. I wish Amtrak trains were as quiet.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
....BaltACD:
How true. Our first TV {at my home}, in 1948 was a 10" Air King model and it was the first set in a residence in our little home town. Installed a 54' tower with a double stacked all channel antenna with 300' of twin 300 ohm line back to the house. This was the era of the famous Joe Lewis boxing matches....Neighbors filled the living room and stood on the porch and watched thru the front window.
Signal was quite snowy but could be seen....it was an amazement we got any signal at all under the above conditions. Signal was from WDTV Pgh., Pa. about 70 miles away and a mountain between us. But the excitement was there just to be able to see television. We even had a magnifier on the TV making the picture about 17" up from the 10" pic it actually was.
Modelcar Like you we had the first TV in the neighborhood and every afternoon when my father came home from work we had at least thirty kids sitting in our living room watching Howdy Doody. The TV was a Zenith with a 10" screen like yours but in this huge cabinet. For some reason my dad kept that TV and about thirty years ago he went into a Zenith dealer in Auburn, WA to buy a new set and got to talking to the dealer about that old Zenith he had. The dealer said if the cabinet was still in good shape and the picture tube checked out OK he could pick out any new color set he wanted.
The dealer delivered the new set the next day and picked up the old one after checking it and finding it still worked he took it back to his store and put it in the front window and left it turned on night and day and sold more TV's with that old Zenith than any other advertising he ever tried. I was back there about ten years ago and the dealer is no longer there and the dealership has been replaced with a car dealership.
Remember traveling on the Florida Special from NY to Miami when they had a fashion show and TV in the full lenght dining cars they used for Recreation cars. Also remember the early days of the Amtrak Superliners when on the lower level of the Lounge cars they had a piano that some yougsters were always pounding on. Did not take Amtrak to long to get rid of the piano's much to the enjoyment of the majority of passengers.
Al - in Stockton
.....passengerfan:
Chances are with your families "old" Zenith TV....that the total picture tube face was exposed showing a "round" TV pic. Zenith did that early on as opposed to other manufactures "masking" the round tube to produse a rectangle size picture.
Keep in mind they often had pretty good aerials on the cars, I know the heavyweight Empire Builder observation/lounge car had a roof aerial kinda like those found on 1950's Pennsy cabooses and engines.
One other wacky thing about radio back then was that radio can go high up and sort of bounce off the atmosphere and come down again to be received...I remember reading that in the 1930's when Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys were broadcasting from Tulsa OK their program had a huge following in Wisconsin - the signal 'bounced' just right and the cheeseheads could get the signal crystal clear, better than many people closer to Tulsa could get it.
...Believe that's called "skip".
RRKen wrote: larsend wrote: What limits reception on the AM Radio Band is the noise (lightning, thunder static, and other radio stations you do not want to hear.)Back in the 1930s there were fewer AM Radio Stations on the air, hence less interference from undesired radio stations. In fact the FCC designated several Radio Stations as "Clear Channel Stations." Most of these Clear Channel Stations , especially those in the Midwest, were able to be heard all over the Contental USA.Today, the FCC has allowed other stations to broadcast on the Clear Channel frequencies, destroying their coverage.Listening to the AM radio band in the 1930s was much more enjoyable than it is now.It is more of a challange today thanks to the FCC. But even in the late 60's to late 70's, it was fun to sit and tune around. At one time in my youth, I logged a station on every frequency in the AM band. Certain frequencies were difficult such as the "graveyard" frequency of 1230 khz. WGN radio in Chicago had/has listeners in New Zealand and all over the world. So it is not at all a stretch to imagine the coverage back in the 30's.
larsend wrote: What limits reception on the AM Radio Band is the noise (lightning, thunder static, and other radio stations you do not want to hear.)Back in the 1930s there were fewer AM Radio Stations on the air, hence less interference from undesired radio stations. In fact the FCC designated several Radio Stations as "Clear Channel Stations." Most of these Clear Channel Stations , especially those in the Midwest, were able to be heard all over the Contental USA.Today, the FCC has allowed other stations to broadcast on the Clear Channel frequencies, destroying their coverage.Listening to the AM radio band in the 1930s was much more enjoyable than it is now.
What limits reception on the AM Radio Band is the noise (lightning, thunder static, and other radio stations you do not want to hear.)
Back in the 1930s there were fewer AM Radio Stations on the air, hence less interference from undesired radio stations. In fact the FCC designated several Radio Stations as "Clear Channel Stations." Most of these Clear Channel Stations , especially those in the Midwest, were able to be heard all over the Contental USA.
Today, the FCC has allowed other stations to broadcast on the Clear Channel frequencies, destroying their coverage.
Listening to the AM radio band in the 1930s was much more enjoyable than it is now.
It is more of a challange today thanks to the FCC. But even in the late 60's to late 70's, it was fun to sit and tune around. At one time in my youth, I logged a station on every frequency in the AM band. Certain frequencies were difficult such as the "graveyard" frequency of 1230 khz.
WGN radio in Chicago had/has listeners in New Zealand and all over the world. So it is not at all a stretch to imagine the coverage back in the 30's.
While the FCC has allowed a few stations to broadcast on Clear Channels licensed to the 50KW blowtorches, they are in remote areas that cannot interfere with the main station's signal. Today's AM signals have to compete with almost infinitesimal amounts of interference -- neon on flourescent lights, small motors, and yes -- even wireless computers and telephones.
Chicago has FOUR 24-hour 50,000-watt omnidirectional clear channels: WSCR (670), WGN (720), WBBM (780) and WLS (890). WMVP (1000) is omnidirectional during daylight and dead east between sunset and sunup. 50KW is the max for any U.S. station.
The first four have a single tall antenna mast because they don't need to adjust their signal pattern. WMVP broadcasts during daylight using one of its four masts. To direct the signal after dark the other three are utilized -- they shape the signal pattern by adjusting the power in the various towers.
Also keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna, which is in-ground and radiates outwards from the antenna mast. Remote areas that have a high iron content in the bedrock typically do not offer good AM reception. FM, other other hand, does not require a ground plane -- just an antenna on top of a tall mast or building.
It is possible that the rails (which are grounded) may have helped with radio reception.
WSCR 670's signal is can be heard in 38 states and 4 Canadian provinces, after sunset in the fringe areas.
Here's a site to look up and U.S. radio station and its coverage map:
RADIO LOCATOR
Here are today's clear channels:
540 CBK Regina, Saskatchewan 540 CBT Grand Falls, Newfoundland and Labrador 540 XEWA San Luis Potosí, San Luis Potosí 640 CBN St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador 640 KFI Los Angeles, California 650 WSM Nashville, Tennessee 660 WFAN New York, New York 670 WSCR Chicago, Illinois 680 KNBR San Francisco, California 690 CINF Montreal, Quebec 690 XETRA Tijuana, Baja California 700 WLW Cincinnati, Ohio 710 KIRO Seattle, Washington 710 WOR New York, New York 720 WGN Chicago, Illinois 730 CKAC Montreal, Quebec 730 XEX Mexico City, D.F. 740 CHWO Toronto, Ontario 750 WSB Atlanta, Georgia 760 WJR Detroit, Michigan 770 WABC New York, New York 780 WBBM Chicago, Illinois 800 XEROK Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua 810 KGO San Francisco, California 810 WGY Schenectady, New York 820 WBAP Fort Worth, Texas 830 WCCO Minneapolis, Minnesota 840 WHAS Louisville, Kentucky 850 KOA Denver, Colorado 860 CJBC Toronto, Ontario 870 WWL New Orleans, Louisiana 880 WCBS New York, New York 890 WLS Chicago, Illinois 900 XEW Mexico City, D.F. 940 CINW Montreal, Quebec 940 XEQ Mexico City, D.F. 990 CBW Winnipeg, Manitoba 990 CBY Corner Brook, Newfoundland and Labrador 1000 KOMO Seattle, Washington 1000 WMVP Chicago, Illinois 1010 CBR Calgary, Alberta 1010 CFRB Toronto, Ontario 1020 KDKA Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 1030 WBZ Boston, Massachusetts 1040 WHO Des Moines, Iowa 1050 XEG Monterrey, Nuevo León 1060 KYW Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 1060 XEEP Mexico City, D.F. 1070 defunct[2] Moncton, New Brunswick 1070 KNX Los Angeles, California 1080 WTIC Hartford, Connecticut 1080 KRLD Dallas, Texas 1090 KAAY Little Rock, Arkansas 1090 WBAL Baltimore, Maryland 1100 WTAM Cleveland, Ohio 1110 KFAB Omaha, Nebraska 1110 WBT Charlotte, North Carolina 1120 KMOX St. Louis, Missouri 1130 CKWX Vancouver, British Columbia 1130 KWKH Shreveport, Louisiana 1130 WBBR New York, New York 1140 WRVA Richmond, Virginia 1140 XEMR Monterrey, Nuevo León 1160 KSL Salt Lake City, Utah 1170 KFAQ Tulsa, Oklahoma 1170 WWVA Wheeling, West Virginia 1180 WHAM Rochester, New York 1190 KEX Portland, Oregon 1190 WOWO[3] Fort Wayne, Indiana 1190 XEWK Guadalajara, Jalisco 1200 WOAI San Antonio, Texas 1210 WPHT Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 1220 XEB Mexico City, D.F. 1500 KSTP Saint Paul, Minnesota 1500 WWWT Washington, D.C. 1510 KGA[4] Spokane, Washington 1510 WLAC Nashville, Tennessee 1520 KOKC Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 1520 WWKB Buffalo, New York 1530 KFBK Sacramento, California 1530 WCKY Cincinnati, Ohio 1540 KXEL Waterloo, Iowa 1540 ZNS-1 Nassau, Bahamas 1550 CBE Windsor, Ontario 1550 XERUV Xalapa, Veracruz 1560 KNZR[5] Bakersfield, California 1560 WQEW New York, New York 1570 XERF Ciudad Acuña, Coahuila 1580 CKDO [6] Oshawa, Ontario
The quality of the AM electronics in today's radios is fine for listening to what AM has turned into -- mostly talk.
However, it is possible to buy a high-quality AM radio with an ultra-sensitive digital tuner and not have to sell the kids. This one from C. Crane Co. is the finest affordable radio with a precision AM tuner I've ever seen -- you can adjust it to stop on 9 "point" frequencies between licensed frequencies -- as in 720, 720.0, 720.2, etc. It not only has a great antenna but C.Crane also sells exterior antennas that plug into its antenna jack.
C.CRANE Co.
.....That even looks like a quality radio.
And I haven't seen a clear channel list for a very long time. Decades ago, I remember trying to get Pgh. and Boston was tricky due to their close location on the dial.
As a central Pennsylvania teenager in the later 1950's I remember listing to the night LSU football games broadcast on a 50K Lousianna radio station. I also remember listing to the Waterloo, Iowa station at night. WLS from Chicago came through fine in the daytime-but not so good at night. While in the Army in Arizona the OK City one came through at night on a transistor radio like it was broadcasting from nearby Tuscon. I have no clue if any of that is still possible anymore.
alphas wrote: As a central Pennsylvania teenager in the later 1950's I remember listing to the night LSU football games broadcast on a 50K Lousianna radio station. I also remember listing to the Waterloo, Iowa station at night. WLS from Chicago came through fine in the daytime-but not so good at night. While in the Army in Arizona the OK City one came through at night on a transistor radio like it was broadcasting from nearby Tuscon. I have no clue if any of that is still possible anymore.
The differences today probably deal more with the plethora of local radio station using up the AM Radio band and the relatively few people that listen to AM Radio for anything much more than background noise. In our youth's we listened to the radio to hear what was being broadcast....today, for the most part, when we have AM radio on it is just to have noise to break up the overwhelming sound of quiet.
A local 5K watt sports talk radio station received a call from Australia one morning from what was alleged to be a listener there, that was following the then current discussion and decided to comment. Whether the caller was truly half a world away, only the radio station and it's phone records know.
Poppa_Zit wrote:Also keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna, which is in-ground and radiates outwards from the antenna mast. Remote areas that have a high iron content in the bedrock typically do not offer good AM reception. FM, other other hand, does not require a ground plane -- just an antenna on top of a tall mast or building.
To be more correct, the AM transmitters are designed to send out a surface wave which more or less follows the contors of the earth. The surface wave propagates best when going over high conductivity soils (e.g. well fertilized farmland) and even better over sea water. For the most part the surface wave peters out after about 70 to 100 miles or so, depending on frequency and ground conditions.
During the daytime hours, the D layer of the ionosphere presents too much loss to allow the sky wave to propagate by reflection (actually refraction) off the higher levels of the ionosphere (E or F layers). At night, the D layer goes away and allows for propagation up to halfway around the world.
erikem wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: Also keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna, which is in-ground and radiates outwards from the antenna mast. Remote areas that have a high iron content in the bedrock typically do not offer good AM reception. FM, other other hand, does not require a ground plane -- just an antenna on top of a tall mast or building.To be more correct, the AM transmitters are designed to send out a surface wave which more or less follows the contors of the earth. The surface wave propagates best when going over high conductivity soils (e.g. well fertilized farmland) and even better over sea water. For the most part the surface wave peters out after about 70 to 100 miles or so, depending on frequency and ground conditions.During the daytime hours, the D layer of the ionosphere presents too much loss to allow the sky wave to propagate by reflection (actually refraction) off the higher levels of the ionosphere (E or F layers). At night, the D layer goes away and allows for propagation up to halfway around the world.
Poppa_Zit wrote: Also keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna, which is in-ground and radiates outwards from the antenna mast. Remote areas that have a high iron content in the bedrock typically do not offer good AM reception. FM, other other hand, does not require a ground plane -- just an antenna on top of a tall mast or building.
erikem, however you care to slice it, what I was talking about was not how it sends out a signal -- but the physical apparatus itself. Here's what I wrote, the key word being "also":
'keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna"
Part of the FCC required transmitting apparatus at a commercial AM transmitter site is the ground plane, buried cable radials -- usually 20 each, 100-foot long ground radials of 8 AWG bare tinned copper wire. The ground plane is arranged in a circular pattern out from the antenna mast -- buried at an approximate depth of 18 inches below existing surface. At the center, the 20 radials are joined together. The end of each ground plane radial is equipped with a 4 foot ground rod mechanically and electrically attached to the wire. The ground rods are driven into the soil to ensure a maximum grounding of the system.
This is why most commercial AM transmitters are built on sites with some open land around the antenna(e) -- as I said, not needed in FM setups, which can be mounted on masts or tall buildings, like the Sears Tower in Chicago.
When I was stationed in Mo. in the early 60's, I used to listen to WLS out of Chicago at night. Came in clear as a bell. Who'll ever forget Dick Biondi ?
Dick
Texas Chief
I seem to recall self-service tube testers (with inventory below?) in hardware or variety stores back in the 50's. Anyone else?
As a kid in Reading PA, I was properly steeped in the lore and legends of my Dad's (he grew up in Highland Park) Detroit Tigers. Summer was our busy season and we'd often work into the night listening to the games worked by Ernie Harwell on WJR. We'd do the same in the Safari coming back from delivery/sales trips. Ernie seemed like an uncle to me. Great WJR signal then.
If WOR's ("I am not reminiscing!!!) Jean Sheperd was on a roll, we'd bounce between Jean and Ernie.
Doubt there was music on Western Star when I rode it coming back from Vietnam ca. 1969. People's tastes had become too diverse.
R. Flix
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
You were probably listening to WLW from New Orleans or KWKH from Shreveport. Both were 50kw clear channel stations that could be heard all over the US at night when the weather didn't interfere with their transmissions.
Mark
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