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Passenger Radios On Board Burlington's 1937 Denver Zephyrs

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Posted by rjemery on Saturday, May 24, 2008 9:58 PM

 larsend wrote:
Much of what has been discussed here is correct, but a lot of it was not.

Please feel free to correct the record. 

If anybody wants to discuss any aspects of AM, FM or Television signal coverage and reception please E-Mail or PM me.  I would love to talk about it, but I think we should let Kalmbach use their Forum for Railroading.

If there were a Water Cooler or Off Topic section, I would sugest posting there.  However, there is not.  Since the original question has now been answered, I would encourage you and everyone else who wishes to pursue the technicalities of radio transmission to continue posting right here.  In its own way, it all relates to radio reception aboard late 1930's or newer long distance trains.

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Posted by larsend on Saturday, May 24, 2008 8:50 PM

Inasmuch as this is a Trains Forum, I have hesitated to prolong the discussion of the technical aspects of radio.

 

My first job as a Broadcast Engineer was helping and learning about AM directional antennas from a Consultant.  My last job, before retiring, was for a client, designing, constructing, and adjusting an AM directional antenna.  In the intervening 50 years, I was involved, not only with many AM stations, but FM and TV stations in an engineering capacity.

 

Much of what has been discussed here is correct, but a lot of it was not.

 

Getting back to the original topic, railroads promoted the installation of radios as a statement that the railroad was up to date with their use of technology for the pleasure of their customers.  Today, those offering transportation of passengers are still promoting the fact that they offer the latest in technology for the pleasure of their passengers, only now they are promoting cell phone service and WiFi, the present "State of the Art"

 

The installations of radios on trains in the 1930s, as well as the availability of WiFi today, are due to the very smart moves of the railroad, marketing departments.  The airlines are now beginning to follow the long time smart actions of the railroads.

 

If anybody wants to discuss any aspects of AM, FM or Television signal coverage and reception please E-Mail or PM me.  I would love to talk about it, but I think we should let Kalmbach use their Forum for Railroading.

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Posted by rjemery on Saturday, May 24, 2008 6:40 PM

For those interested, there are articles and discussions of AM and FM wave propagation and antennas available at http://en.wikipedia.org.

These latest responses to my original query have gone far afield, but I still consider these sidebar explorations to be relevant, if not very interesting.  Keep them coming.

 

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Posted by Poppa_Zit on Saturday, May 24, 2008 6:27 PM
 erikem wrote:

AM station transmit with vertically polarized signals in order to excite the surface wave mentioned in my previous post. FM (and TV) stations transmit horizontally polarized waves which do not require a ground plane. 

Not for you erikem, but anyone who is interested, for an illustrative purpose of the discussion as to why AM radio waves travel farther than FM (and TV, which are similar), the shape of the wave makes all the difference. I'll try to keep it fairly simple.

AM radio waves look like the top graphic, and because of the low frequency (of the peaks) are more "bendable" and can follow the curvature of the earth and therefore travel greater distances. And can bounce off the Ionosphere (which "rises" after sunsets and allows for "skip" (bounce back to earth) which helps bring in distant stations at night. But also bounce off the sides of buildings and other obstructions -- like in Downtown Chicago.

FM (and TV signals) are of a higher (number of peaks in the bottom graphic) frequency and do not bend -- so the receiver has to be within "line of sight" to the transmitting antenna -- which is most cases depending on height rolls off the curvature of the earth at about 30-40 miles. They do, as we know, penetrate walls of buildings, etc.

Hypothetically, if no other FM station was transmitting (and interfering -- aka Multipath Distortion) on the same frequency as a station say, broadcasting from Chicago, if you lived in St. Louis and had a receiving antenna maybe two miles high, you could listen to that station because that signal is up there at some altitude. That's why in some towns far from a major city people receiving non-cable TV signals have their antennas mounted on a high mast. 

Radio signals go off into space indefinitely, though. What was the movie/TV show where the crew of a spaceship many light years distance from Earth was in position in the "stream" to listen to the National League baseball playoff game from 1951 at the exact time when Bobby Thomson hit the home run that won the pennant for the NY Giants?    

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Posted by erikem on Saturday, May 24, 2008 5:12 PM
 Poppa_Zit wrote:
 erikem wrote:
 Poppa_Zit wrote:

Also keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna, which is in-ground and radiates outwards from the antenna mast. Remote areas that have a high iron content in the bedrock typically do not offer good AM reception. FM, other other hand, does not require a ground plane -- just an antenna on top of a tall mast or building.

To be more correct, the AM transmitters are designed to send out a surface wave which more or less follows the contors of the earth. The surface wave propagates best when going over high conductivity soils (e.g. well fertilized farmland) and even better over sea water. For the most part the surface wave peters out after about 70 to 100 miles or so, depending on frequency and ground conditions.

During the daytime hours, the D layer of the ionosphere presents too much loss to allow the sky wave to propagate by reflection (actually refraction) off the higher levels of the ionosphere (E or F layers). At night, the D layer goes away and allows for propagation up to halfway around the world.

erikem, however you care to slice it, what I was talking about was not how it sends out a signal -- but the physical apparatus itself. Here's what I wrote, the key word being "also":

'keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna"

Part of the FCC required transmitting apparatus at a commercial AM transmitter site is the ground plane, buried cable radials -- usually 20 each, 100-foot long ground radials of 8 AWG bare tinned copper wire. The ground plane is arranged in a circular pattern out from the antenna mast -- buried at an approximate depth of 18 inches below existing surface. At the center, the 20 radials are joined together. The end of each ground plane radial is equipped with a 4 foot ground rod mechanically and electrically attached to the wire. The ground rods are driven into the soil to ensure a maximum grounding of the system.

This is why most commercial AM transmitters are built on sites with some open land around the antenna(e) -- as I said, not needed in FM setups, which can be mounted on masts or tall buildings, like the Sears Tower in Chicago.  

Point taken, though my understanding is that the ground system is more like 120 wires each one-half wave long (~500' for 1,000 kHz). One purpose of the radial ground system is to provide a stable feedpoint impedance to the antenna, which is particularly important for a directional array (FCC regs typically call for a 30 to 40 dB null) - this from a Tab book on setting up directional broadcast arrays (my copy is at work).

AM station transmit with vertically polarized signals in order to excite the surface wave mentioned in my previous post. FM (and TV) stations transmit horizontally polarized waves which do not require a ground plane. 

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Posted by Poppa_Zit on Saturday, May 24, 2008 8:33 AM

 ButchKnouse wrote:
What would be ON frequencies like 720.2 AM?

Nothing. Just more precise tuning. Sometimes because of atmospherics, terrain, nearby buildings or weather you can improve a signal by moving slightly off-frequency. You could do that with an analog tuner, but not with a regular digital. Commercial AM signals -- compared to commercial FM -- are much "wider".

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Posted by Poppa_Zit on Saturday, May 24, 2008 8:24 AM
 rixflix wrote:

I seem to  recall self-service tube testers (with inventory below?) in hardware or variety stores back in the 50's. Anyone else?

 As a kid in Reading PA, I was properly steeped in the lore and legends of my Dad's (he grew up in Highland Park) Detroit Tigers. Summer was our busy season and we'd often work into the night listening to the games worked by Ernie Harwell on WJR. We'd do the same in the Safari coming back from delivery/sales trips. Ernie seemed like an uncle to me. Great WJR signal then.

If WOR's ("I am not reminiscing!!!) Jean Sheperd was on a roll, we'd bounce between Jean and Ernie.

Doubt there was music on Western Star when I rode it coming back from Vietnam ca. 1969. People's tastes had become too diverse.

R. Flix 

I have one of those tube testers w/inventory below in storage, bought when a local hardware store went out of business years ago. Use the tubes to repair old non-transistor radios I have restored.

And -- oh yes! -- the days of old before global cable TV, where as a youth I used to scan the AM dial from one end to the other, listening to the wonderous, crackling sound of major league baseball games being broadcast from cities faraway at night... radio, it was like a miracle that transported us kids elsewhere as we lay in our beds learning to develop and use an imagination to "see" the games in our minds.

I still have in working order the first art deco Zenith cabinet radio with push buttons and green "Magic Tuning Eye" from my folk's house.

From Chicago we could on most nights hear games from romantic-sounding places like Crosley Field in Cincy on WLW... Forbes Field in Pittsburgh on KDKA... Busch Stadium in St. Louis on KMOX... Tiger Stadium in Detroit on WJR... In today's world, listening to baseball on the radio demands no special mental skills, no imagination, because thanks to TV we know what the ballparks and the players look like... which may be why today's generations aren't as smart as we are.Laugh [(-D]

 

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They are not entitled, however, to their own facts." No we can't. Charter Member J-CASS (Jaded Cynical Ascerbic Sarcastic Skeptics) Notary Sojac & Retired Foo Fighter "Where there's foo, there's fire."
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Posted by rjemery on Saturday, May 24, 2008 7:24 AM

 aricat wrote:
... In the 1930's electric razors ... etc didn't exist.

Guess again!  From a 1937 Denver Zypher brochure:

 

 

 

 

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Posted by ButchKnouse on Saturday, May 24, 2008 6:46 AM
What would be ON frequencies like 720.2 AM?

Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.

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Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:20 AM
 alphas wrote:

As a central Pennsylvania teenager in the later 1950's I remember listing to the night LSU football games broadcast on a 50K Lousianna radio station.  I also remember listing to the Waterloo, Iowa station at night.  WLS from Chicago came through fine in the daytime-but not so good at night.   While in the Army in Arizona the OK City one came through at night on a transistor radio like it was broadcasting from nearby Tuscon.   I have no clue if any of that is still possible anymore.

You were probably listening to WLW from New Orleans or KWKH from Shreveport. Both were 50kw clear channel stations that could be heard all over the US at night when the weather didn't interfere with their transmissions.

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Posted by rixflix on Saturday, May 24, 2008 1:46 AM

I seem to  recall self-service tube testers (with inventory below?) in hardware or variety stores back in the 50's. Anyone else?

 As a kid in Reading PA, I was properly steeped in the lore and legends of my Dad's (he grew up in Highland Park) Detroit Tigers. Summer was our busy season and we'd often work into the night listening to the games worked by Ernie Harwell on WJR. We'd do the same in the Safari coming back from delivery/sales trips. Ernie seemed like an uncle to me. Great WJR signal then.

If WOR's ("I am not reminiscing!!!) Jean Sheperd was on a roll, we'd bounce between Jean and Ernie.

Doubt there was music on Western Star when I rode it coming back from Vietnam ca. 1969. People's tastes had become too diverse.

R. Flix 

rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.

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Posted by Texas Chief on Saturday, May 24, 2008 12:10 AM

When I was stationed in Mo. in the early 60's, I used to listen to WLS out of Chicago at night. Came in clear as a bell. Who'll ever forget Dick Biondi ?

Dick

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Posted by Poppa_Zit on Friday, May 23, 2008 11:33 PM
 erikem wrote:
 Poppa_Zit wrote:

Also keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna, which is in-ground and radiates outwards from the antenna mast. Remote areas that have a high iron content in the bedrock typically do not offer good AM reception. FM, other other hand, does not require a ground plane -- just an antenna on top of a tall mast or building.

To be more correct, the AM transmitters are designed to send out a surface wave which more or less follows the contors of the earth. The surface wave propagates best when going over high conductivity soils (e.g. well fertilized farmland) and even better over sea water. For the most part the surface wave peters out after about 70 to 100 miles or so, depending on frequency and ground conditions.

During the daytime hours, the D layer of the ionosphere presents too much loss to allow the sky wave to propagate by reflection (actually refraction) off the higher levels of the ionosphere (E or F layers). At night, the D layer goes away and allows for propagation up to halfway around the world.

erikem, however you care to slice it, what I was talking about was not how it sends out a signal -- but the physical apparatus itself. Here's what I wrote, the key word being "also":

'keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna"

Part of the FCC required transmitting apparatus at a commercial AM transmitter site is the ground plane, buried cable radials -- usually 20 each, 100-foot long ground radials of 8 AWG bare tinned copper wire. The ground plane is arranged in a circular pattern out from the antenna mast -- buried at an approximate depth of 18 inches below existing surface. At the center, the 20 radials are joined together. The end of each ground plane radial is equipped with a 4 foot ground rod mechanically and electrically attached to the wire. The ground rods are driven into the soil to ensure a maximum grounding of the system.

This is why most commercial AM transmitters are built on sites with some open land around the antenna(e) -- as I said, not needed in FM setups, which can be mounted on masts or tall buildings, like the Sears Tower in Chicago. 

 

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They are not entitled, however, to their own facts." No we can't. Charter Member J-CASS (Jaded Cynical Ascerbic Sarcastic Skeptics) Notary Sojac & Retired Foo Fighter "Where there's foo, there's fire."
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Posted by erikem on Friday, May 23, 2008 9:53 PM
 Poppa_Zit wrote:

Also keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna, which is in-ground and radiates outwards from the antenna mast. Remote areas that have a high iron content in the bedrock typically do not offer good AM reception. FM, other other hand, does not require a ground plane -- just an antenna on top of a tall mast or building.

To be more correct, the AM transmitters are designed to send out a surface wave which more or less follows the contors of the earth. The surface wave propagates best when going over high conductivity soils (e.g. well fertilized farmland) and even better over sea water. For the most part the surface wave peters out after about 70 to 100 miles or so, depending on frequency and ground conditions.

During the daytime hours, the D layer of the ionosphere presents too much loss to allow the sky wave to propagate by reflection (actually refraction) off the higher levels of the ionosphere (E or F layers). At night, the D layer goes away and allows for propagation up to halfway around the world.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, May 23, 2008 9:33 PM
 alphas wrote:

As a central Pennsylvania teenager in the later 1950's I remember listing to the night LSU football games broadcast on a 50K Lousianna radio station.  I also remember listing to the Waterloo, Iowa station at night.  WLS from Chicago came through fine in the daytime-but not so good at night.   While in the Army in Arizona the OK City one came through at night on a transistor radio like it was broadcasting from nearby Tuscon.   I have no clue if any of that is still possible anymore.

Skip is just as real today as it was 50 years or more ago....it is a physical phenomena.

The differences today probably deal more with the plethora of local radio station using up the AM Radio band and the relatively few people that listen to AM Radio for anything much more than background noise.  In our youth's we listened to the radio to hear what was being broadcast....today, for the most part, when we have AM radio on it is just to have noise to break up the overwhelming sound of quiet.

A local 5K watt sports talk radio station received a call from Australia one morning from what was alleged to be a listener there, that was following the then current discussion and decided to comment.  Whether the caller was truly half a world away, only the radio station and it's phone records know.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by alphas on Friday, May 23, 2008 8:40 PM

As a central Pennsylvania teenager in the later 1950's I remember listing to the night LSU football games broadcast on a 50K Lousianna radio station.  I also remember listing to the Waterloo, Iowa station at night.  WLS from Chicago came through fine in the daytime-but not so good at night.   While in the Army in Arizona the OK City one came through at night on a transistor radio like it was broadcasting from nearby Tuscon.   I have no clue if any of that is still possible anymore.

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Posted by Modelcar on Friday, May 23, 2008 7:57 PM

.....That even looks like a quality radio.

And I haven't seen a clear channel list for a very long time.  Decades ago, I remember trying to get Pgh. and Boston was tricky due to their close location on the dial.

Quentin

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Posted by Poppa_Zit on Friday, May 23, 2008 5:37 PM

The quality of the AM electronics in today's radios is fine for listening to what AM has turned into -- mostly talk.

However, it is possible to buy a high-quality AM radio with an ultra-sensitive digital tuner and not have to sell the kids. This one from C. Crane Co. is the finest affordable radio with a precision AM tuner I've ever seen -- you can adjust it to stop on 9 "point" frequencies between licensed frequencies -- as in 720, 720.0, 720.2, etc. It not only has a great antenna but C.Crane also sells exterior antennas that plug into its antenna jack.

C.CRANE Co.

  

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Posted by Poppa_Zit on Friday, May 23, 2008 5:19 PM
 RRKen wrote:
 larsend wrote:

What limits reception on the AM Radio Band is the noise (lightning, thunder static, and other radio stations you do not want to hear.)

Back in the 1930s there were fewer AM Radio Stations on the air, hence less interference from undesired radio stations.  In fact the FCC designated several Radio Stations as "Clear Channel Stations."  Most of these Clear Channel Stations , especially those in the Midwest, were able to be heard all over the Contental USA.

Today, the FCC has allowed other stations to broadcast on the Clear Channel frequencies, destroying their coverage.

Listening to the AM radio band in the 1930s was much more enjoyable than it is now.

It is more of a challange today thanks to the FCC.  But even in the late 60's to late 70's,  it was fun to sit and tune around.   At one time in my youth, I logged a station on every frequency in the AM band.   Certain frequencies were difficult such as the "graveyard" frequency of 1230 khz.  

 WGN radio in Chicago had/has listeners in New Zealand and all over the world.  So it is not at all a stretch to imagine the coverage back in the 30's.  

While the FCC has allowed a few stations to broadcast on Clear Channels licensed to the 50KW blowtorches, they are in remote areas that cannot interfere with the main station's signal. Today's AM signals have to compete with almost infinitesimal amounts of interference -- neon on flourescent lights, small motors, and yes -- even wireless computers and telephones.

Chicago has FOUR 24-hour 50,000-watt omnidirectional clear channels: WSCR (670), WGN (720), WBBM (780) and WLS (890). WMVP (1000) is omnidirectional during daylight and dead east between sunset and sunup. 50KW is the max for any U.S. station.

The first four have a single tall antenna mast because they don't need to adjust their signal pattern. WMVP broadcasts during daylight using one of its four masts. To direct the signal after dark the other three are utilized -- they shape the signal pattern by adjusting the power in the various towers.

Also keep in mind most AM transmitters also send their signal through the earth via a ground plane antenna, which is in-ground and radiates outwards from the antenna mast. Remote areas that have a high iron content in the bedrock typically do not offer good AM reception. FM, other other hand, does not require a ground plane -- just an antenna on top of a tall mast or building.

It is possible that the rails (which are grounded) may have helped with radio reception.

WSCR 670's signal is can be heard in 38 states and 4 Canadian provinces, after sunset in the fringe areas.

Here's a site to look up and U.S. radio station and its coverage map:

RADIO LOCATOR    

Here are today's clear channels:

540 CBK Regina, Saskatchewan
540 CBT Grand Falls, Newfoundland and Labrador
540 XEWA San Luis Potosí, San Luis Potosí
640 CBN St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador
640 KFI Los Angeles, California
650 WSM Nashville, Tennessee
660 WFAN New York, New York
670 WSCR Chicago, Illinois
680 KNBR San Francisco, California
690 CINF Montreal, Quebec
690 XETRA Tijuana, Baja California
700 WLW Cincinnati, Ohio
710 KIRO Seattle, Washington
710 WOR New York, New York
720 WGN Chicago, Illinois
730 CKAC Montreal, Quebec
730 XEX Mexico City, D.F.
740 CHWO Toronto, Ontario
750 WSB Atlanta, Georgia
760 WJR Detroit, Michigan
770 WABC New York, New York
780 WBBM Chicago, Illinois
800 XEROK Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua
810 KGO San Francisco, California
810 WGY Schenectady, New York
820 WBAP Fort Worth, Texas
830 WCCO Minneapolis, Minnesota
840 WHAS Louisville, Kentucky
850 KOA Denver, Colorado
860 CJBC Toronto, Ontario
870 WWL New Orleans, Louisiana
880 WCBS New York, New York
890 WLS Chicago, Illinois
900 XEW Mexico City, D.F.
940 CINW Montreal, Quebec
940 XEQ Mexico City, D.F.
990 CBW Winnipeg, Manitoba
990 CBY Corner Brook, Newfoundland and Labrador
1000 KOMO Seattle, Washington
1000 WMVP Chicago, Illinois
1010 CBR Calgary, Alberta
1010 CFRB Toronto, Ontario
1020 KDKA Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
1030 WBZ Boston, Massachusetts
1040 WHO Des Moines, Iowa
1050 XEG Monterrey, Nuevo León
1060 KYW Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
1060 XEEP Mexico City, D.F.
1070 defunct[2] Moncton, New Brunswick
1070 KNX Los Angeles, California
1080 WTIC Hartford, Connecticut
1080 KRLD Dallas, Texas
1090 KAAY Little Rock, Arkansas
1090 WBAL Baltimore, Maryland
1100 WTAM Cleveland, Ohio
1110 KFAB Omaha, Nebraska
1110 WBT Charlotte, North Carolina
1120 KMOX St. Louis, Missouri
1130 CKWX Vancouver, British Columbia
1130 KWKH Shreveport, Louisiana
1130 WBBR New York, New York
1140 WRVA Richmond, Virginia
1140 XEMR Monterrey, Nuevo León
1160 KSL Salt Lake City, Utah
1170 KFAQ Tulsa, Oklahoma
1170 WWVA Wheeling, West Virginia
1180 WHAM Rochester, New York
1190 KEX Portland, Oregon
1190 WOWO[3] Fort Wayne, Indiana
1190 XEWK Guadalajara, Jalisco
1200 WOAI San Antonio, Texas
1210 WPHT Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
1220 XEB Mexico City, D.F.
1500 KSTP Saint Paul, Minnesota
1500 WWWT Washington, D.C.
1510 KGA[4] Spokane, Washington
1510 WLAC Nashville, Tennessee
1520 KOKC Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
1520 WWKB Buffalo, New York
1530 KFBK Sacramento, California
1530 WCKY Cincinnati, Ohio
1540 KXEL Waterloo, Iowa
1540 ZNS-1 Nassau, Bahamas
1550 CBE Windsor, Ontario
1550 XERUV Xalapa, Veracruz
1560 KNZR[5] Bakersfield, California
1560 WQEW New York, New York
1570 XERF Ciudad Acuña, Coahuila
1580 CKDO [6] Oshawa, Ontario

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They are not entitled, however, to their own facts." No we can't. Charter Member J-CASS (Jaded Cynical Ascerbic Sarcastic Skeptics) Notary Sojac & Retired Foo Fighter "Where there's foo, there's fire."
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Posted by aricat on Friday, May 23, 2008 4:48 PM
  The Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited both had controlled radio reception; so did the Western Star for that matter,well into the 1960's. They also had tape recorded music. They were not on all the time and sometimes they were only available in the Vista-Domes or the lounge car. Usually the station was the most popular in the next stop the train would make. The crew and only the crew chose what radio station would be played.WBBM and WGN in Chicago;WCCO in Minneapolis, were examples. Sometimes a baseball game would be carried.Transitor radios did not work in coaches at all; nothing but static. Portable radios that ran on batteries presented the same problem. Nearly all the radios used in the 1930's required an outlet which made the radio all but impossible to use on any train.just where would you plug it in.If you think in a roomette think again. In the 1930's electric razors,hair dryers ete didn't exist.
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Posted by Modelcar on Friday, May 23, 2008 2:58 PM

...Believe that's called "skip".

Quentin

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, May 23, 2008 1:58 PM

Keep in mind they often had pretty good aerials on the cars, I know the heavyweight Empire Builder observation/lounge car had a roof aerial kinda like those found on 1950's Pennsy cabooses and engines.

One other wacky thing about radio back then was that radio can go high up and sort of bounce off the atmosphere and come down again to be received...I remember reading that in the 1930's when Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys were broadcasting from Tulsa OK their program had a huge following in Wisconsin - the signal 'bounced' just right and the cheeseheads could get the signal crystal clear, better than many people closer to Tulsa could get it.

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Posted by Modelcar on Friday, May 23, 2008 8:29 AM

.....passengerfan:

Chances are with your families "old" Zenith TV....that the total picture tube face was exposed showing a "round" TV pic.  Zenith did that early on as opposed to other manufactures "masking" the round tube to produse a rectangle size picture.

Quentin

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Posted by passengerfan on Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:26 PM

Modelcar Like you we had the first TV in the neighborhood and every afternoon when my father came home from work we had at least thirty kids sitting in our living room watching Howdy Doody. The TV was a Zenith with a 10" screen like yours but in this huge cabinet. For some reason my dad kept that TV and about thirty years ago he went into a Zenith dealer in Auburn, WA to buy a new set and got to talking to the dealer about that old Zenith he had. The dealer said if the cabinet was still in good shape and the picture tube checked out OK he could pick out any new color set he wanted.

The dealer delivered the new set the next day and picked up the old one after checking it and finding it still worked he took it back to his store and put it in the front window and left it turned on night and day and sold more TV's with that old Zenith than any other advertising he ever tried. I was back there about ten years ago and the dealer is no longer there and the dealership has been replaced with a car dealership.

Remember traveling on the Florida Special from NY to Miami when they had a fashion show and TV in the full lenght dining cars they used for Recreation cars. Also remember the early days of the Amtrak Superliners when on the lower level of the Lounge cars they had a piano that some yougsters were always pounding on. Did not take Amtrak to long to get rid of the piano's much to the enjoyment of the majority of passengers.

Al - in Stockton

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  • From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania
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Posted by Modelcar on Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:41 PM

....BaltACD:

How true.  Our first TV {at my home}, in 1948 was a 10" Air King model and it was the first set in a residence in our little home town.  Installed a 54' tower with a double stacked all channel antenna with 300' of twin 300 ohm line back to the house.  This was the era of the famous Joe Lewis boxing matches....Neighbors filled the living room and stood on the porch and watched thru the front window.

Signal was quite snowy but could be seen....it was an amazement we got any signal at all under the above  conditions.  Signal was from WDTV Pgh., Pa.  about 70 miles away and a mountain between us.  But the excitement was there just to be able to see television.  We even had a magnifier on the TV making the picture about 17" up from the 10" pic it actually was.

Quentin

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:24 PM
Radios on the Zephyr's and other trains of the day were there not so much for how well they actually received the radio signal, but to display the the train had the latest technology of the the day.  To some extent, just being able to receive a radio signal, no matter where it came from nor what it's programing was, was a technological triumph.  Just as in the early days of TV, just receiving a signal was a triumph, no matter how much 'snow' it contained.  Time and technology march on.  What was novel then, is unacceptable today.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by rjemery on Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:15 PM

 Victrola1 wrote:
... Have you ever noticed the railroad publicity photos from the 1920's showing a flapper in an observation car fascinated with an Atwater Kent receiver?

Never saw one, but I will look out for it in any subsequent reading.  Until you mentioned it, I never knew of Atwater Kent radios.  There is a short article on Atwater Kent on WikiPedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atwater_kent.  Circa 1950, the most prominent vendors I remember are RCA, Philco and Zenith.

I remember a long dead friend telling of heading west on a zephyr in the 1960's. It was a Sunday. The bartender had the Cubs tuned in on WGN. Once the train entered Iowa, at least the Cubs were still there after the liquor had been locked down.

Never had the pleasure of riding any Zephyr.  On all the trains I did ride in the 1960's, there was never a radio that I knew about.  Just as well.  I truly enjoyed the quiet atmosphere.  I wish Amtrak trains were as quiet.

RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM

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Posted by Victrola1 on Thursday, May 22, 2008 11:55 AM

Radio available for passengers 70 or 80 years ago was more than the equivilent of inflight movies and wi-fi today.

Making radio available made marketing sense. Have you ever noticed the railroad publicity photos from the 1920's showing a flapper in an observation car fascinated with an Atwater Kent receiver?

I remember a long dead friend telling of heading west on a zephyr in the 1960's. It was a Sunday. The bartender had the Cubs tuned in on WGN. Once the train entered Iowa, at least the Cubs were still there after the liquor had been locked down.

 

 

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  • From: Northern New Mexico
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Posted by rjemery on Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:15 AM

 daveklepper wrote:
I can assure you that long distance rail travelers appreciated the AM radio service in the 30's.   Conditions were different then and so were expectations.   Radio was new, popular, and the major communications and entertainment medium.

I presume either you enjoyed the experience personally or knew of someone who did.  That was the depression era, and if one could afford it, that was the way to travel to overnight destinations.

It was something like the railroad providing magazines and newspapers in the lounge cars.  Anyone else remember that?

I sure don't.  I began using the trains in the early 1960's.  Service on the PRR B'way Ltd was the pits.  Took it once and never again.  The NYC's 20th Century Ltd was far better but off route for my travels.

The Super Chief and San Francisco Chief were excellent in every respect, and I rode the Sante Fe while opting to fly anywhere and everywhere else outside Santa Fe's territory.  I tried to take the D&RGW's Royal Gorge when the opportunity presented itself on one occasion, but for some reason that I can not recall, it was not operating that Saturday in June, 1963.

RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM

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