Passenger Radios On Board Burlington's 1937 Denver Zephyrs

[rjemery]

The Burlington's Denver Zephyr's in 1937 offered desktop radios "for private use in bedrooms, compartments and drawing rooms."  I have to wonder of what value an AM radio would be on a speeding train averaging at least 60 mph.  These were overnight trains between Denver and Chicago, so any radio listening would be done at night when reception was better.  Nevertheless, at that speed, any radio station that could be received would soon be out-of-range.  Given that the train itself was constantly changing position and orientation, fine turning should have been all but impossible.

Anyone have any idea how well received or effective these radios were?  I don't believe radios were offered on any other trains of the day.

[Modelcar]

Agree, that thought of having an AM radio on a moving train does raise some questions.

But consider many clear channel 50,000wt stations were on the dial back in the 30's and 40's....KDKA....WBZA....and many more and many of these stations could be heard for hundreds and hundreds of miles. {At night}.

[KCSfan]

Of course radios were sometimes found in lounge cars and would be touted in timetables and advertisments as an example of how up to date a particular train was. As I recall in that era antennas would be mounted on the roof top and run nearly the entire length of the car.

I recall lying in my roomette berth one night in about 1960 on either the Ak-Sar-Ben or American Royal Zephyr listening through earphones to a trainsistor radio. I had to do a lot of fine tuning to get any kind of reception at all.

Mark

[Modelcar]

....Sure that was probably necessary to pick up the distant clear channels.  I remember back in the 30's at home we had an antenna {wire}, out from the house perhaps a 100' in length.   I also remember once the lightning got it and we never found an inch of it.  It blew the knobs off the radio {floor model}, across two rooms.  End of radio.  100' antenna was grounded with a brass rod deep in the ground too.

[rjemery]

Agree, that thought of having an AM radio on a moving train does raise some questions.

But consider many clear channel 50,000wt stations were on the dial back in the 30's and 40's....KDKA....WBZA....and many more and many of these stations could be heard for hundreds and hundreds of miles. {At night}.

Yes, but radios of that era that picked up distant radio stations were of the console variety, stationary, and could be finely tuned.  Even then due to atomospheric changes, radio reception often had to be kept constantly re-tuned.

A table top model on a moving train to me makes little sense.  I don't think it would have had the range.  Offering a radio may have been more a gimmick than having any actual practical value.

A train approaching Denver or especially Chicago would not be traveling at a high rate of speed.  A listener could tune in a local station and probably catch 15-20 minutes of a program before the final stop.

 

[rjemery]

Of course radios were sometimes found in lounge cars and would be touted in timetables and advertisments as an example of how up to date a particular train was. As I recall in that era antennas would be mounted on the roof top and run nearly the entire length of the car.

I didn't address antennas because I thought either with home console models or on board desktop models, that aspect would have been well covered.  I'm still skeptical about long lasting and clear reception on a moving train. 

[rjemery]

....Sure that was probably necessary to pick up the distant clear channels.  I remember back in the 30's at home we had an antenna {wire}, out from the house perhaps a 100' in length.   I also remember once the lightning got it and we never found an inch of it.  It blew the knobs off the radio {floor model}, across two rooms.  End of radio.  100' antenna was grounded with a brass rod deep in the ground too.

You may have been the victim of ground currents.  A lightning strike may have hit elsewhere nearby, but ground currents would have intercepted the wire and used it as a conduit.  

I was once caught inside a thunderstorm atop a mountain, and I know all about ground currents first hand.  I'm very lucky to be here.

[Modelcar]

....Back in about 1960 we were down in Florida....a bit north of Orlando.  Had a little portable radio AM / Short Wave Zenith model....a rather small one.  Remember at night tuning thru it to see what it would do...{it was rather new}, and picked up KDKA, Pittsburgh.  That's a good 1000 mile in distance.  Of course that was not moving...Actually believe I was laying in bed.

[larsend]

What limits reception on the AM Radio Band is the noise (lightning, thunder static, and other radio stations you do not want to hear.)

Back in the 1930s there were fewer AM Radio Stations on the air, hence less interference from undesired radio stations.  In fact the FCC designated several Radio Stations as "Clear Channel Stations."  Most of these Clear Channel Stations , especially those in the Midwest, were able to be heard all over the Contental USA.

Today, the FCC has allowed other stations to broadcast on the Clear Channel frequencies, destroying their coverage.

Listening to the AM radio band in the 1930s was much more enjoyable than it is now.

[Modelcar]

....There was an AT&T heavy double cable line {2 cables}, perhaps 3" in dia. and it passed our home about no farther away than 50'.

We always did wonder if the lightning hit might have run along that cable line and fed the power to our antenna line somehow.....

[dldance]

Even in the 1960's in Idaho I listened to KOMA (Oklahoma City) and Wolf Man Jack (Del Rio Texas - actual across the river in Mexico).  Good clear reception after dark.  A good quality AM radio would pick up clear channel stations all across the midwest and Chicago-Denver is definately midwest.

dd

[Modelcar]

....Yes, the "clear channel stations" were awarded a frequency that no one else in the lower 48 could transmit on.  I remember KDKA, PGh.,  and WBZA, Boston were very close in frequency and were a bit tricky to keep separated.

Believe De Moines, Iowa and Omaha, Neb. had clear channel stations too.   Again, {I just thought of it}, coming across the Pacific in 1954 when we were still out {from Seattle, Wa.}, hundreds of miles, I picked up De Moines on a hand held small portable....At night.

[rjemery]

....There was an AT&T heavy double cable line {2 cables}, perhaps 3" in dia. and it passed our home about no farther away than 50'.

We always did wonder if the lightning hit might have run along that cable line and fed the power to our antenna line somehow.....

Chances are a strike did hit the rod atop the nearest telephone pole, then the juice ran to the ground via the grounding wire that all utility poles should have attached.  But the action doesn't stop there.  The path electricity can take is unpredictable except for it being the path of least resistance.  If there was water on the surface, it could well have reached out from that pole.

[rjemery]

Even in the 1960's in Idaho I listened to KOMA (Oklahoma City) and Wolf Man Jack (Del Rio Texas - actual across the river in Mexico).  Good clear reception after dark.  A good quality AM radio would pick up clear channel stations all across the midwest and Chicago-Denver is definately midwest.

That station in Mexico transmitted at least at 100 KW if not 150 KW.  I'm not sure if it was operating in the late 1930's. 

While US-based commercial radio stations were limited to 50 KW (with some notable exceptions), they usually did not transmit at their full power until after dark.  Since the Denver Zephyrs were overnight trains, US stations would have been at full power.

 

[Modelcar]

....I believe I remember reading of a Mexican {or several}, stations with up to 250 KW power back in those days....

....A bit of Trivia:

As a youngster, I had a crystal set....{no power...no batteries}, and I managed {several times}, to pick up Kearney, Neb. {at night}, from western Pennsylvania....!

[rjemery]

....Yes, the "clear channel stations" were awarded a frequency that no one else in the lower 48 could transmit on.  I remember KDKA, PGh.,  and WBZA, Boston were very close in frequency and were a bit tricky to keep separated.

Believe Des Moines, Iowa and Omaha, Neb. had clear channel stations too.   Again, {I just thought of it}, coming across the Pacific in 1954 when we were still out {from Seattle, Wa.}, hundreds of miles, I picked up Des Moines on a hand held small portable....At night.

One needs to be careful here.  First, long distance radio reception may be affected by seasonal or transient atmospheric conditions.  One might receive a station from several states away for a day, a week or even a month, but then only sporadically.

Second, many advances were made in radio transmission through the decades.  Initially, transmission was usually omnidirectional from a single tower.  By the 1960's, clusters of up to five antennas could be used to focus the energy of radio waves laterally, thereby increasing the distance an equal powered station could be heard.

 

[Modelcar]

...Back several decades ago we had an AM station {can't remember it's call letters now}, and it had a cluster of antennas.....exactly how many I'm not sure...perhaps about 6 of them maybe 200 to 250' towers but it was a day time only station....and low power.

It's still here but now a completely different set up and it's now an FM station and I believe it broadcasts from several nearby towns.

[Modelcar]

....Enjoyed the conversation...better turn it back to the subject at the heading.

[rjemery]

...Back several decades ago we had an AM station {can't remember it's call letters now}, and it had a cluster of antennas.....exactly how many I'm not sure...perhaps about 6 of them maybe 200 to 250' towers but it was a day time only station....and low power.

It's still here but now a completely different set up and it's now an FM station and I believe it broadcasts from several nearby towns.

Many rural areas, especially in mountainous terrain, tend to use several low power repeater stations, usually operating on different frequencies.  A program is transmitted by either line-of-sight microwave or over a dedicated (telephone) line for broadcast to several stations at once.

[rjemery]

....Enjoyed the conversation...better turn it back to the subject at the heading.

Actually, hashing out the history, capabilities and technicalities of radio broadcasts is germane to the topic.  It all relates to how useful AM radios for passengers aboard 1937 Zephyrs would have been.

 

[Modelcar]

.......10-4  and 73's.

[RRKen]

The Burlington's Denver Zephyr's in 1937 offered desktop radios "for private use in bedrooms, compartments and drawing rooms."  I have to wonder of what value an AM radio would be on a speeding train averaging at least 60 mph.  These were overnight trains between Denver and Chicago, so any radio listening would be done at night when reception was better.  Nevertheless, at that speed, any radio station that could be received would soon be out-of-range.  Given that the train itself was constantly changing position and orientation, fine turning should have been all but impossible.

Anyone have any idea how well received or effective these radios were?  I don't believe radios were offered on any other trains of the day.

I recall using my transister in the 1960's picking up just about every kind of station in the U.S. from my bed.   Of course there is a huge difference between that, and the noisey sleeper (electrical noise).  Today, is no different that yesterday as far as AM reception.   Yes, the radios are different.  

 One of the Philco table top models I recall, model 96 was an AC powered radio, which had the antenna linked into the power cord.  (This might have been originally for local stations only)   And yes, some tube type radios had to be retuned from time to time because of internal drift.  

I am not sure the noise from the car electrical equipment could be quieted or not for long distance communication.  However at that time, most big stations were 50,000 watts.  Some at first were 500,000 watts (you should see the tubes for that transmitter!)  Add to it, there were not as many stations out there, so you had some space between stations, i.e. less noise from adjecent frequencies.    Plus these radios were less selective than what I had in the form of a Hellicrafters S-85 reciever in 1972.   However given that, you should have gotten some real long distance reception.   

 I recall playing with a tube type car radio in the late 80's, with a normal car antenna.  The result was surprising.  Driving from Chicago to Moline, IL, (120 miles) I was able to get WGN radio, 720khz with perfect clarity.   My records by the way, were a station on 800khz in 1972 from Bonaire, in the Netherlands Antilles, and a 5,000 watt daytime/500 watt night time radio station from Sikeston, Mo.   On Shortwave, it was Springbok Radio from South Africa, at 5,000 watts.   (I had to slip that in to gloat a bit)  

 So, the answer is, given a good model of radio, I have no doubt that it would work well in your compartment, even at 60 mph.  Yep, I can imagine falling asleep listening to the Big Band sounds from KOA 850 khz in Denver.  

[RRKen]

What limits reception on the AM Radio Band is the noise (lightning, thunder static, and other radio stations you do not want to hear.)

Back in the 1930s there were fewer AM Radio Stations on the air, hence less interference from undesired radio stations.  In fact the FCC designated several Radio Stations as "Clear Channel Stations."  Most of these Clear Channel Stations , especially those in the Midwest, were able to be heard all over the Contental USA.

Today, the FCC has allowed other stations to broadcast on the Clear Channel frequencies, destroying their coverage.

Listening to the AM radio band in the 1930s was much more enjoyable than it is now.

It is more of a challange today thanks to the FCC.  But even in the late 60's to late 70's,  it was fun to sit and tune around.   At one time in my youth, I logged a station on every frequency in the AM band.   Certain frequencies were difficult such as the "graveyard" frequency of 1230 khz.  

 WGN radio in Chicago had/has listeners in New Zealand and all over the world.  So it is not at all a stretch to imagine the coverage back in the 30's.  

[daveklepper]

If the small radios had a connection to a roof-top antenna, then reception would be even better than available on the very popular car radios of the time.   (Motorola perfected car radios in 1931.   David Read, who is also a railfan, audio expert, and an ex-SP and ex-AT&SF employee, including experience as a towerman, had a fine article in the magazine SOUND AND COMMUNICATIONS, several years ago on the company and the inauguration of car radios.)

[eolafan]

Up to this day one can be driving in his/her car doing 60 mph plus while traveling in just about any direction and pick up WGN radio, AM 720 in Chicago which is a 50K watt station from a distance of over 300 miles.  I have heard of folks in Kentucky and even further south picking up WGN at night and I have personally listened to the station while in Michigan's U.P. and driving, a distance of over 300 miles from Chicago. My point is that if one can accomplish this while in a car, similar reception should easily be possible on a train traveling at the same approximate speed.

[ButchKnouse]

I remember an interview with Wolfman Jack in TV Guide in the 70s. He said he once worked on a Mexican station that broadcast at 500,000 watts and could be picked up in Korea. In the 1930s a station in Cincinnati broadcast at 500,000 at could be picked up in Australia.

I live in central South Dakota, and the only rock station we could get in the daytime was KFYR, Bismarck, ND 550 AM 300 miles away. At night you could choose between WLS Chicago 890 AM, 650 miles or KOMA Oklahoma City at 1520 which was further than Chicago. I listened to WLS, but I was told that KOMA often carried ads for concerts in NORTH Dakota. Out in Rapid City, SD 900 miles from Chicago, WLS was the station of choice, so much so that Rapid's first rock station (daylight only) adopted the letters KKLS. In 1976 I got WLS on my car radio while in Denver. It was staticy, but I could understand every word.

An old timer I used to know in Miller, SD was a huge fan of the St. Louis Cardinals, because way back when he could get St. Louis crystal clear. Miller is 550 miles from Kansas City, plus whatever the distance is to St. Louis from KC.

It was amazing what you could stumble across back then. Sometimes you'd get something once and never find it again.

In 1971 my cousin came out from Chicago and whipped out this 10 band radio with 2 antennas, I asked him what he was doing and he said he was trying to get WLS. I promptly turned on my piece of junk clock radio just in time for the words "WLS, CHICAGO!!!"

The look on his face was priceless.

[csmith9474]

The Santa Fe really pushed the radio service offered for passengers in the 500 series "Pleasure Domes" on the Super Chief. The antenna ran the entire length of the dome, except for the dome itself. They also provided radio service to the hi-level cars using an antenna on the dorm/baggage cars.

[Modelcar]

For the question at hand....receiving AM radio signals adequately in a moving railroad car back in the 30's and 40's from clear channel 50 kw stations would have been very possible....and in my opinion probable.

Big band sounds from AM radios in the 30's in homes was a reality....Very much so.  Clear channel stations were a reality and I remember well {my older brother}, had that sound on a lot and it was great.  Several of our radios at home were Philco floor models and then right after the war a big new Zenith console with Phono and multiband receiver really brought out beautiful music sounds from big clear channel stations at night.

[videomaker]

  I have no idea why ANYONE (in their right mind)would want to set up all night on a train trip fine tuning an am radio ! Of all things to do while on a train ride ! UNLESS,you were a kid on your first train ride ! 

   It was an advertising gimmick to get more riders, wheather they listened to any radios or not is a matter of history we may never know..Granted some people may have listened to local stations once they got in range of Denver or Chicago just to get the lastest weather or get caught up on the  lastest news...  

[Modelcar]

.....I think we're over doing the "fine tuning" aspect of it....

And if a radio was available in a sleeper compartment....why not have some music for a while....Believe we've established it was possible to receive long distance AM clear channels and lots of music was on those stations in that era....so why not listen.