CShaveRR wrote: U33B, you just have to broaden your circle of friends--this Forum is a good place to start! It's so hard, with strange work schedules, etc., to organize a trip on a "club" basis. But if you wanted to ask the Forum about a trip somewhere on a given date, you might get a few "takers" who would be willing to meet somewhere. My most recent trip to Blue Island and Dolton was with CopCarSS and a cousin of his.
U33B, you just have to broaden your circle of friends--this Forum is a good place to start! It's so hard, with strange work schedules, etc., to organize a trip on a "club" basis. But if you wanted to ask the Forum about a trip somewhere on a given date, you might get a few "takers" who would be willing to meet somewhere. My most recent trip to Blue Island and Dolton was with CopCarSS and a cousin of his.
U33B-I live just down the tracks from you in FRG and would love to meet up with other railfans. I've yet to meet up with Carl and Jim at Eola yard due to schedules but it would definitely be nice to meet some others personally. Keep me in the loop.
As for Dolton, it is gritty and blue collar but it can and has been a dangerous place. There was a cop killed in that area not long ago while sitting in his car. It was still shocking to the locals but it is safe to say the area doesn't seem to be improving as much as one would hope. I'd agree that it is likely safer than Dearing. Personally, there are other locations I enjoy much more anyway. Franklin Park area comes to mind.
Mike
Only a few times, as I don't go railfanning much at all.
The first time was when I was in Ayer, MA with two friends. Nothing happened, but we stayed together anyway. It was daytime, but I was a little nervous when the sun neared the horizon while we were waiting for our train back.
The other time couldn't really be called railfanning, but I was driving with my father in Worcester to the train club, and we saw the Providence and Worcester yard job switching, so we pulled into an empty parking lot to watch. The brakeman looked around and said something to the engineer on his radio, so I realized it wasn't exactly a safe neighborhood, so we left.
Although, other than those two times and a few others, I haven't really gone on any other railfanning trips.
One more personal safety rule to keep in mind is to stay off mass transit for the hour or two when school lets out.
Although I wouldn't railfan a dangerous area on mass transit, when travelling I do railfan via bus, subway, train when I can... and I have found that even in marginal areas that many consider safe, being on a bus or subway when the high schools let out... it can get bad.
Falls Valley RR wrote: Sorta. There is a sex trade business on the east side of the river that can get dangerous late at night along towards Granite City.East St. Louis has little to nothing left except the interstate and that is all there is.Most of the time I stayed at Gateway or Effingham or similar locations and then entered St. Louis early in the morning. Kinda hard for a panhandler to walk 15-50 miles to knock on my door and ask for money.
Sorta. There is a sex trade business on the east side of the river that can get dangerous late at night along towards Granite City.
East St. Louis has little to nothing left except the interstate and that is all there is.
Most of the time I stayed at Gateway or Effingham or similar locations and then entered St. Louis early in the morning. Kinda hard for a panhandler to walk 15-50 miles to knock on my door and ask for money.
We moved from there (Swansea) in 2001. I have heard since then that Brooklyn has been all but shut down. There was a lot of interesting railroading spots in that area. I just went early to avoid trouble.
If memory serves there is a railyard that has sunk into the mud on the east bank. It is a great yard in size and all of it is kaput.
You think they at least will recycle the steel rails.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
garyla wrote: One of the busiest spots for rail traffic in the Western U.S. has to be Colton, Calif., where the UP Sunset Route crosses the BNSF Transcon main (with plenty of Overland Route-bound UP trains thrown in). Not the worst I've ever seen, but I don't feel like hanging around there alone. Not really a railfanning spot anyway, but San Bernardino's Duffy St. neighborhood (where the gigantic SP derailment occured in the 1980s and some homesites remain un-rebuilt) is an interesting place for a look-see, but I don't even stop the car.
One of the busiest spots for rail traffic in the Western U.S. has to be Colton, Calif., where the UP Sunset Route crosses the BNSF Transcon main (with plenty of Overland Route-bound UP trains thrown in). Not the worst I've ever seen, but I don't feel like hanging around there alone.
Not really a railfanning spot anyway, but San Bernardino's Duffy St. neighborhood (where the gigantic SP derailment occured in the 1980s and some homesites remain un-rebuilt) is an interesting place for a look-see, but I don't even stop the car.
Hi Gary,
The Duffy Street locale is in a neighborhood known locally as Muscoy. You are wise not stopping as this has traditionally always been a rough neighborhood.
Better to trainspot a little further up the grade towards CP Dike (the wash area) or more towards Cajon. Devore Road near Glen Helen Regional Park is a good spot for main line action with easy access from either I-15 or I-215.
techguy57 wrote: I'd second the Blue Island/Dolton area as being one I'd be wary of Mike
I'd second the Blue Island/Dolton area as being one I'd be wary of
Dolton and Blue Island, while gritty and blue collar in nature, are truley not bad neighborhoods. All of the aforementioned guidelines definatly apply here, but they are not too rough. Englewood, and portions of East Chicago and perhaps sections of Dearing would be best to avoid though.
~Kevin
**Opens a bag...
Here we go.
Several packs of menthol cigerettes, Several of regulars and one hundreds...
A few dollar bills and a stack of coins. (More later)
Clothes that are nuetral and not a gang color. Learn about Crips, bloods, Vice Lords, latin kings and MS13. Learn thier grafitti and stay clear of those turf areas.
When on foot, dont allow anyone to corner you, stay 6 feet distance and NEVER run in fear. Stand your ground. Display strength and clear mind. Be a lion. You might be very afraid inside your gut but as long as you are functioning (Dont let that voice shake...) you will be ok.
The encounter usually starts "You got a light? (Smoke? Dollar etc) Keep this material in a front pocket.
By the time that person approaches you; usually they have already evaluated you for attack or defense or other personal gain and made thier decision already how the encounter is going to play out... peacefully or with violence. YOU decide how it's going to go down by your actions, body language etc. Be a Lion. Lions are not prey and they are much harder targets than the weak ones.
Im sorry if this is rather rough and not polite or other high class consideration. That street or corner is just the same as the african jungle. You or them. Anything goes.
In really bad areas, the police will see you as a problem about to happen and frankly dont want it. One clue is they will be two to a crusier and have the 1300 deployed between them up front ready to use.
Take care of thier want and then walk off wishing them a good day but using your hand in a sort of a sweep with the palm out and half down making clear that you dont wish further converstation.
That is how some of these people trap you with converstation that suddenly deteriotes into several issues at once and try to confuse you. So My defense is no words, no problem.
While trucking I used to hire certain people who work that street to keep the rig clear of spray paint grafitti from the local artists for a while. Anyone getting on my catwalk between cab and trailer is considered hostile and I find a turn street and knock em off with a hard jack turn. I dont stop for directions, I dont ask directions and always have a alternate route out.
As far as I know I aint killed anyone or gotten too bad hurt. But certanily knives, meathooks and other implements are involved from time to time.
Oh the coins? They get smashed into the face of the attacker as a opening move to fight. Usually the others will stop for a second to gather up the half dollars. They cannot resist it and give you an opening to finish the defense or get clear.
Ive gotten old, slow and unfit and that is a very good reason to stay out of bad areas these days. The younger ones are quite quicksilver of mind, nerves and lethal in attack on that street. All the wonderful creations of laws, morals or other human considerations are absolutely worthless at that time.
Having said this, I must tell to you that there live people who are good and are sort of Angels or defenders in certian neighborhoods, even in the worst of places you may find a few who will in thier own way take care of you so you can just leave quickly and not bother that area no more. Because you are considered a target, liability and a problem that disrupts the normal flow in the night or day.
The best people I have seen are those who are working in the day time or on the market dock at night earning a wage for living. Those are the ones you want to be around as long there is no problem.
Jail is quite the training ground and usually they come out of that jail hardened further and better and go down to the markets sometimes to start up from the bottom and working up if they want a place of their own and a family. The rest are simply there until they get rearrested and back to jail.
The rest are lost and will not enjoy a good position off that street. They will die there at some point from one of the common infections, STD's drugs etc.
If you have a city block full of homes, complete family units with mom and pop along with a good coordinated network in all the homes. Generally it will be difficult for the bad elements to move in. But as these people die off, move out or otherwise cease to care about their "Block" the bad elements move in and take hold just like a weed.
Eventually only those without money, car or any resources are trapped there to be preyed on by the weeds. Then it is all used up and the weeds take over the next block and so on.
Yes...I was in beautiful Charleston, SC on business last year. I parked my rental car along side the NS tracks in what looked like a poor neighbourhood. Getting ready to do some train watching, I was approached by a rather unsavory looking character who asked me if I was buying or selling. Recognizing a potential problem I kicked him in the family jewels as hard as I could and took off running. That's when I knew I was set up...suddenly five or six loafers were hot on my tail, and I made it to my vehicle in the nick of time. Got out of there in a hurry...
But I have a question...those NS ties there in Charleston were made of metal...why?
Quentin, I do carry a tire pump (that's how I was able to keep going as long as I did!), and don't need wrenches to remove wheels or make adjustments on my bike (it takes about ten minutes for me from flat to back on the road with a new tube).
As for Chicago, I think that the everyone has covered the majority of not-so-good spots. I'd second the Blue Island/Dolton area as being one I'd be wary of, but if you go in the morning it isn't too bad. Of course I'm a hefty kinda guy so I hve a little bit of weight to throw around too. Just be cautious, and as Bill recommended travel with a buddy if you can!
I am also a lifelong resident of the Chicago area, and have been to several places a more reasonable person may not have (further proof that railfanning is a disease...). And i think Bill's advise is as good as it gets (you should sell it as a handbook...great stuff, right on the money). However, one thing that suprises me, and i may be sheltered i suppose, but i am suprised that there are so few "rail-fan clubs" with which to provide companionship and a bit of orginization to railfanning trips into the city. For myself, none of my friends are railfans, and my father has long sinse lost the desire to go out rail-fanning, so i am often on my own when i got out to these places and those that i run into are also alone, or with perhaps one other person.
Now i am not proposing gaudy tour bus arrangements or anything like that (that could worsen your situation, TARGET...) But a group to facilitate a way to "buddy up" and coordinate trips as well as promoting the hobby ingeneral. Have i missed the boat on this, or are there already this sort of thing taking place? I'd be interested to know.
Bottom line, i think that Bills advice about the "wild kingdom" senario is under-valued. Arm yourself with knowledge of the area, and a bit of confidence, the majority of trouble will pass you by for easier prey. Many of the crimes in these areas are crimes of opportunity. And lastly, and i dont wish to incite, but, dont be afraid of people who dont look like you, many of the areas in chicago deemed 'unsafe' by many of us are done so superficially without our full understanding of how certain inherent fear of those we dont 'understand' and may can play with our logic, even when we would like to think that we are color-blind and living Dr. Kings dream of understanding. And it plays both ways, i've met several people from these neighborhoods who fear comming out to where i live because of being seen as a target, not for crime, but as a target for un-due prosecution and harrassment from police... The struggle continues...
Beach Bill wrote: (snip...) Hope this helps, Bill
(snip...) Hope this helps, Bill
Really fantastic advice. Thanks for posting it. (The one about being in bad neighborhoods only very early is one I've always followed myself.)
Certainly most RR tracks are in the older part of town and things might not be good. I like photographing different short lines, and if you go seeking the Chicago Short Line or the Chicago, West Pullman & Southern (both on Chicago's South Side), it isn't always the best place to be.
I used to have the advantage of being a police officer, and did carry a concealed weapon and "Badge Americard". Identifying myself as an off-duty police officer to folks in the yard office usually allowed me to stand safely out of everyone's way without anyone getting upset. I am now retired and those benefits are no longer maintained (after 30 years of urban policing, I've seen enough to know I don't want to carry a gun any more).
With that police experience, I would offer the following suggestions if one really wants to get some of those photos in grim areas:
Hope this helps, Bill
I have railfanned many a questionable neighborhood in my day and I will say you have to be very alert, very aware and very quick. Unless you are with a group, you don't walk into these areas and hang out. You come in, get your shots, and leave.
That being said, I have only had one railfanning experience where I was in real jeopardy... and that was in one of the safest towns in America. Over 30 years ago - a friend and I biked down to the River Edge, NJ depot and rode our bikes all the way to the northern end of the platform to wait and see if the local freight came through. Well, on the northern end of the platform you are essentially on a shelf with a hill behind you that is too steep to climb, the tracks in front of you, and then another hill beyond them that is fairly steep itself.
Two large guys spot us, pick up large tree branches, and start walking towards us. We knew we were in trouble, and didn't know what to do. Finally, we both threw our bikes down the hill and jumped, rolling into the gravel. We got on our bikes, ignored our scrapes and bruises, and rode away through the parking lot. As we passed the closest we would get to the guys with the sticks, they threw them at us.
Point being... you have to be careful everywhere you go. There are knuckleheads and jerks to be found all over.
Ham Radio wrote: Railroaders often work on the "wrong side of the tracks" and the dirty little secret is that almost to a man they carry a pocket knife and a lot of the old heads pack firearms, rules be ignored....North of Dolores is the garden spot of Watts, ground zero for the two best riots in LA history. When a train goes into emergency in that neighborhood, rails stay on the head end until the railroad police show up to escort the conductor to the problem, day or night. The locals get very hostile when their street crossings get blocked.
Railroaders often work on the "wrong side of the tracks" and the dirty little secret is that almost to a man they carry a pocket knife and a lot of the old heads pack firearms, rules be ignored....North of Dolores is the garden spot of Watts, ground zero for the two best riots in LA history. When a train goes into emergency in that neighborhood, rails stay on the head end until the railroad police show up to escort the conductor to the problem, day or night. The locals get very hostile when their street crossings get blocked.
Same operating procedures were in effect back (in the 70s & 80s) when freights departed and arrived at the 40th Street yards on Chicago's near west side (Pulaski Road).
Soo 6604 wrote: There was one trip to Chicago where we took a wrong turn and ended up in a very bad neighborhood. We ended up getting pulled over and the cop asked what we were doing in this part of town. Told him that we took a wrong turn and was trying to find our way out. He ended up giving us a police escort to a better place. All i remember was that there was abandoned cars with not much on them, steel bars on all the windowd, graffitti everywhere and the ElAnother time was in Kansas City. We just knew we were in a bad neighborhood where the police station even had steel bars on the windows and door along with a church.Paul
There was one trip to Chicago where we took a wrong turn and ended up in a very bad neighborhood. We ended up getting pulled over and the cop asked what we were doing in this part of town. Told him that we took a wrong turn and was trying to find our way out. He ended up giving us a police escort to a better place. All i remember was that there was abandoned cars with not much on them, steel bars on all the windowd, graffitti everywhere and the El
Another time was in Kansas City. We just knew we were in a bad neighborhood where the police station even had steel bars on the windows and door along with a church.
Paul
Sounds like the scene from National Lampoon's Vacation movie.
toledo and fostoria have some bad spots on the way to look at trains.one time 5 cop cars pulled up to a house in fostoria and matt asked what was going on.i just said that the man was bad and hes going to timeout.
stay safe
joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
The old 16th Street SP station in Oakland. On a 14 day Amtrak pass, a high school friend and I had a layover between the Coast Starlightand the California Zephyr. We didn't want to hang around the station for hours and there wasn't a cab to be found so we went out to catch a city bus. How we found the schedule I don't recall, but we were waiting out at the bus stop and didn't know the fare. There was only one person to ask-on obviously derelict old man. But there was no on else and it was right in front of the station, in broad daylight so we drew straws (so to speak) and Brad came up short. So, with me watching for trouble, he went up and asked the guy about the bus fare, expecting the only reply to be the guy belching and throwing up a couple gallons of Ripple. Instead a very polite, apparantly well educated (and completely sober) gentleman told us the bus fare, the best connections to get across the Bay and an approximate transit time so we knew how late to stay in the city before we had to start back.
Learned then to not judge books by their covers so much.
Threre really isnt a bad part here. Nthe North side of the tracks east of M street is about as bad as it gets... And that is manly Those unlawful visitors that seem to pop up, and lots of drugs. But I dont fan that area at all, so I really don't have an issue....
We weren't fanning, but there was one time in the travels that I had with my dad while he was still a Square Dance Caller, We had to go through East Denver.... Not a big fan of that place... Good thing we had the .44 mag(exactly like Dirty Harry's) under the seat, and the CWP in the pocket just in case.
RJ
"Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling
http://sweetwater-photography.com/
Ive probably been into enough dangerous neighborhoods around the USA getting into and out of the markets that I am very happy to see nothing but birds and crickets where I am when I railfan.
Ive seen the very worst and also the very best of different peoples around the USA.
To me, it's not worth going into bad areas just for a few images. Not worth your life. Especially when that photo or video equiptment can get the vultures another few days of drugs or booze.
Also alot of the activity that was present when I was growing up has literally been buried in new condos, developments and other projects and ceased to exist.
Railroaders often work on the "wrong side of the tracks" and the dirty little secret is that almost to a man they carry a pocket knife and a lot of the old heads pack firearms, rules be ignored.
Former SP crews (now UP) operating out of Dolores (near Los Angeles and Long Beach Harbors) had to enter the Pacific Harbor Line (former Harbor Belt Line) daily. Prior to the construction of the Alameda Corridor, there was a really bad area adjacent to the old Shell refinery (between CP Farragut and Badger Bridge) that the local cops referred to as the "Third World."
The inhabitants were the living dead, homeless crack addicts of the worst sort. Stabbings and robberies were common. The cops wouldn't go in with less than six units for safety in numbers. So what would the rails do when there was work? Line switches!
The junior trainman on the crew got sent out to line the switch when it was relatively clear. On one occasion, I saw an engineer actually hold a 9mm pistol out the window to cover the brakeman performing his duties.
Train crews were relatively safe during daylight, but at night they were instructed that if they were on the ground and heard any strange noise behind them to swing around with their lantern as hard as they could, then run. Fortunately, that area got demolished but it is still rough on the waterfront real estate.
North of Dolores is the garden spot of Watts, ground zero for the two best riots in LA history. When a train goes into emergency in that neighborhood, rails stay on the head end until the railroad police show up to escort the conductor to the problem, day or night. The locals get very hostile when their street crossings get blocked.
This happened over 20 years ago, but one late summer morning, I was down in Long Beach, CA. checking things out at SP's Dolores Yard, and decided to head further down the road that parallels the yard. After viewing a huge refinery or two, and some shipping container storage yards, I passed under a bridge with lettering saying something like, "You are now entering the Harbor District." No worries just yet, as the same industrial landscape I'd been watching continued to unfold before me. It wasn't until the road I was on dead ended (or so it seemed) in a rundown neighborhood consisting of old buildings from the middle of the 20th century, and a number of derelict people either staggering around, or passed out on the ground that I began to worry. First chance I got, I turned my mom's 1973 Chevy Malibu Super Sport around and beat a hasty retreat back to Dolores Yard.
UP's North Salt Lake Yard is in a marginal neighborhood, but the residents in the area mostly keep to themselves. I've never had any trouble down there, but if I get one of those gut feelings that now's not a good time to visit the yard, I'll try again some other time.
Columbus, Ohio - the focus of most rail action is the site of the late Scioto Tower, literally in the shadow of downtown. It's the crossing of the ex-PRR Columbus-Cincinnati main, the ex NYC West Virgina line (which carries a great deal of transfer traffic), and the ex-C&O Russell-Toledo Main. While not truly "dangerous", it's smack-dab in the middle of the local homeless "camping area" - I've been solicted for a handout on about half my visits. I've considered just bringing a cooler full of Olde English 400 the next time to save everybody time and trouble.
I -used- to be a operations analyst for an LTL trucking company, and spent a LOT of time in truck terminals all over the northeastern US. Trucking companies are not known for being selective about their surroundings - and I could tell you horror stories about working at night in places like Camden and Hoboken NJ, Brooklyn, Detroit, and Washington DC. Our Detroit terminal was so bad that we had two lines of 12' chain link fence with armed K9 units patrolling the space between. With trailerloads of valuable goods (clothing, electronics, appliances, etc.) all over the place, we attracted the professionals - there was more than one occasion when I feared for my life.
....I've thought of that Carl in the recent past doing a bit of riding on our trail. Never did have trouble though, but then I've not done a fraction of the miles Carl talks about.
Do you carry any bike wrenches with you Carl....How about a small tire pump, etc.....
Finally last year we purchased some LED tail lights and new headlights for riding our bikes here in the neighborhood...{not that it's dangerous from people}, but if we're out and it's getting dark, bingo we have lights. And those LED units you can see for a mile and the batteries last for up to 100 hrs....! They can be set to blink in several different patterns...Neat.
I happen to have a 12 volt generator and light on my 5 speed bike but that works the same as a dynamic brake. But now I have them both anyway.
Quentin
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