Who thinks Genesis #8 is totalled

[METRO]

If GE isnt producing these engines anymore ( p42 ) than where will amtrak go when there is a need for new engines.... MPI maybe?

GE has designs for an Evolution-Series passenger engine (it looks kind of like a cross between a  Genesis body and the nose of a Shinkansen 300.)  Those could theoretically be the replacements for the P42, but remember also that ther were a lot of the Genesis engines produced, it will be a while (baring some horrible defect that has yet to surface) before those engines are done with their service life.

Cheers!

~METRO 

[Nataraj]

If GE isnt producing these engines anymore ( p42 ) than where will amtrak go when there is a need for new engines.... MPI maybe?

[METRO]

IMHO, if Amtrak has stored units, then why repair #8?  It's not like we're talking about a Class 1 freight operation here with a diverse set of engines.  Amtrak runs P40s and P42s, and I may be wrong here but wouldn't one be just as good as any other?  Granted the 800-series engines that were mentioned to be in storage are P40s not P42s like #8, but seriously, why not just re-activate a stored engine to replace a wrecked one when the oppertunity presents itself so well?

Cheers!

~METRO 

[Modelcar]

.....DMU:  Those are good revealing photos.  Looks to me like the body construction held up very well {to protect the crew}, but just the same I also believe the unit most likely has major damage inside.  Of course the front truck is sheered off and slammed back.  The rippling in the structure's metal sides indicates much force was transmitted back thru it.  If that slight protruding at the bottom of the body is the fuel tank....it looks to me to also have held up very well....At least I don't see evidence of a major leak.

Still think it will serve as a parts scrounge unit and will have to be replaced if that is needed and possible.

[jeaton]

I would have to say that #8's condition demonstrates some very good design work to mitigate injury to the crew in a collision. 

Back in the 1970's an IC unit coal train ran into the back an auto transfer job.  Most likely different speeds involved but in that case, the engine on the coal train did not ride up over the flat car carrying the auto rack.  The floor of the car sheared off everything from the floor of the locomotive.  When the engine was pulled out there was literally nothing left but the trucks and the floor.

 

[sfrailfan]

lol!!! Love it!

They'll fix it & lease it to NJ Transit.

[ndbprr]

I think if you look carefully at the bottom picture you will see ripling in the carbody nearly as far back as the vents at the top go and it could be farther so the  carbody is twisted or racked pretty good.  Everything under the engine has been cleaned off as the front truck is in contact with the back truck. Why beat this to death? Somebody at Amtrak, GE or the insurance company will determine what is cheapest and that will be done.  Time will tell and no amount of railfan opinion or speculation will influence anything about that decision.  

[oltmannd]

  Closer look, what do you think ?  Amtrak Photos

It's those 45 degree wrinkles across the Amtrak logo in the bottom picture that have me worried about the overall structure being bent.

[Anonymous]

Look! the front truck is under the number 8 on the rear of the loco!

What happened to the Yukon & White Pass loco? 

[DMUinCT]

  Closer look, what do you think ?  Amtrak Photos

[Modelcar]

...Yes, all those suggestions seem like good info to have for future designs.

[ndbprr]

There is a tremendous amount that can be learned by examining the engine in regard to future safety.  Items like:

1. Were there and devices that could be placed better to prevent injury?

2. Did the monocoque break the way it was designed?

3. Do areas need to be strengthened or weakened to allow that?

4. Did anything come loose in the carbody that would have crushed or injured someone?

5. Was anything punctured that could have chemically harmed the crew?

6. Was the black box in the best retrievable location?

7. And more.

[Dakguy201]

In Amtrak's position, I would not see the need for "comprehensive" insurance.  If anything, I have too many locomotives, and most of them are of an age that they are scarcely worth much more than their scrap value.  As for cars, there is also the age problem; plus the fact that even if I have funds onhand, I cannot order a replacement for a destroyed Superliner-- nobody is likely to start a production line to produce just one or even a few units.

As for taking #8 apart to look for something --  all the things we know about the crash point to either a signal failure or a failure to obey the signal.  Unless someone wants to know the details of how #8's structure reacted to the crash, there is nothing to be learned from the engine itself.

 

[eolafan]

If AMTRAK is to continue to exist, then they need to invest in a series of Locomotives from Motive-Power, Inc., a division of WABTEC.

Andrew

Those locomotives are awfully heavy and not generally suited for long distances or high speed. 

Although I can't speak for the long distance question as it relates to the MP units (may simply be a question of fuel capacity), but as Amtrak trains (outside of the NEC and some very limited other areas) are limited to 79 mph, the MP units would have no problem at all with those speeds as they do 70 per all the time on Metra on the BNSF.

[Chris30]

I thought that I heard the NTSB might start taking the engine apart as part of their investigation. Anybody have any more info on that?

CC

[Modelcar]

....I of course have no info on Amtrak equipment insurance.  My thoughts though, would be for a government quasi operation, there is no comprehensive insurance on equipment.  Self insured, if one cares to call it that, would be my thoughts.

At this point with so many different ideas of how it might be handled...I'd say it will serve as a parts scavenge unit.  With a body that serves as it's frame....{monocoque}, and major damage to it....I'd think it to be almost non-repairable...at a cost affordable.

[Anonymous]

Does Amtrak even own the unit?  Or, is it owned by GE financing or similar and Amtrak has a 15 year capital lease on it?  If so, then the "owner" has a say in it's disposition....

I am sure even if they did not own it GE or anyone else would say to repair it . And even if it was repaired , which would probably cost more than it is worth anyways , would the unit have minor problems down the road , anything from electrical to having the windows whistle or leak air . And these control stands are computerized . I am willing to bet money the think will get scrapped . I am sure it was insured on some measure .

[oltmannd]

Does Amtrak even own the unit?  Or, is it owned by GE financing or similar and Amtrak has a 15 year capital lease on it?  If so, then the "owner" has a say in it's disposition....

[Anonymous]

I don't think Amtrak is going to waste the time or money repairing the thing . It will probably get scrapped and I am sure Amtrak has enough locomotives in their fleet that they don't need to repair it or buy another one to replace it . The idea of fixing it would not make sense or even buying one , that would be stupid IMO . If I went out and and got in a car accident why would I want to get the car fixed ? Especially if it was totalled or close to being totalled . That is why people have car insurance and I am sure Amtrak has some sort of insurance to cover the loss of this particular unit .

[beaulieu]

The cheapest route for Amtrak if they are short would be to rebuild one of the Genesis I locomotives (8xx series) there are a lot of these stored. What I expect to happen is that after the lawsuits are settled, is that #8 will be scrapped. Amtrak currently has enough locomotives in its fleet, they just will be less able to let them sit waiting for maintenance, and will have to do repairs more promptly.

[oltmannd]

Two issues here:

  1.  From what I have seen in this thread and what I know about how insuracne pays off in collisions.  As stated above, if the cost of repair is greater than the currenet value of the unit it will be scrapped and Amtrack will get paid current value.  Otherwise it will be fixed.

  2. It might be possible to get a new body and put the guts os #8 in it.  Add any necessary parts too badly damaged in the accident and save a lot of money.

  Any thoughrs on this?

Getting a new body would be the tough part....  There aren't any spares lying around and GE hasn't had an order for any in years.  Building a single new one would be a rather expensive proposition and fitting it out with salvaged components wouldn't be cheap either.  Lots of wiring, plumbing, etc.

Since Amtrak appears to have plenty of locos on the roster, it might be more economical to go the scrap/salvage route.

 

[oltmannd]

If AMTRAK is to continue to exist, then they need to invest in a series of Locomotives from Motive-Power, Inc., a division of WABTEC.

Andrew

Those locomotives are awfully heavy and not generally suited for long distances or high speed. 

[Andrew Falconer]

If AMTRAK is to continue to exist, then they need to invest in a series of Locomotives from Motive-Power, Inc., a division of WABTEC.

Andrew

[eolafan]

Here's what #8 will look like when it comes out of the body shop that repairs the Carmax wrecks.

[strikefour]

Hey, maybe we'll see #8 on a Carmax lot somewhere soon?

It will likely be in the lot sitting along side a few red DEI Bud #8 cars.

I read trains magazine a couple years that somewhere bewteen damage equals 60%-70% of cost of locomotive, it's considered totalled. But then, passenger locomotives aren't built as often freight, so it might be saved.

[eolafan]

Hey, maybe we'll see #8 on a Carmax lot somewhere soon?

[ndbprr]

Have you seen the sudden stop that train made?  I wouldn't count on anything being the way it was built inside.  In addition the engine bed may have warped severely and cracked the block or internal parts could have destroyed themselves and the rest of the engine.  running at that angle if it did so probably prevented the upper cylinders from getting any lubrication and it may have seized eventually.  Everything posted here is either speculation or conjecture and I am pretty sure Amtrak will do what is economically the best choice.  It will probably be held captive until the NTSB is done their field data collection any way.  so it may be stored for close to a year before any decision is made.

[SchemerBob]

  2. It might be possible to get a new body and put the guts os #8 in it.  Add any necessary parts too badly damaged in the accident and save a lot of money.

I would think this would be the option for #8. From what has been stated earlier some equipment has been jostled about inside the frame, but no word on whether the equipment itself is damaged. A little bit I suppose, but not enough to be junked I wouldn't think. I would think the engine & other components in the locomotive would be built to withstand stuff like this, much less come unfastened and launch forward.

[caldreamer]

Two issues here:

  1.  From what I have seen in this thread and what I know about how insuracne pays off in collisions.  As stated above, if the cost of repair is greater than the currenet value of the unit it will be scrapped and Amtrack will get paid current value.  Otherwise it will be fixed.

  2. It might be possible to get a new body and put the guts os #8 in it.  Add any necessary parts too badly damaged in the accident and save a lot of money.

  Any thoughrs on this?