MP173 wrote: Looking back, the SP's lack of desire to purchase the CEI has to be one of the biggest long term acts of omission in the modern day history of railroading.ed
Looking back, the SP's lack of desire to purchase the CEI has to be one of the biggest long term acts of omission in the modern day history of railroading.
ed
Hi Ed,
When the bridge at Thebes was completed in 1905 the Cotton Belt expressed an interest in acquiring the C&EI but couldn't convince the management of its parent SP to go along with that idea. The threat of this prompted the Frisco to gain control of the C&EI which lasted until the Frisco declared bankruptcy in 1913. The C&EI itself went into bankruptcy in 1922 which forced it to sell its line between Lacrosse and Brazil, IN which was the former Chicago & Indiana Coal RR. The Coal Road line ran almost parrallel to the C&EI and connected with it at Goodland near Momence. When divested by the C&EI it became the Chicago Attica & Southern. The CA&S was never profitable but lingered on until it was totally abandoned in 1946. IIRC it was the largest single railroad abandonment in the US up to that time. In the early 1950's I remember seeing the remains of a fairly large round house along the C&EI around Goodland which I believe had been the CA&S engine terminal and shops.
I'll add another bit of C&EI trivia. A couple of years ago when looking at an online roster of EJ&E steamers I noticed that several of their Mikados were shown as being "equipped with Miller Train Control for use on the C&EI". I'd never heard of this so I did some searching and found out the Miller system was a form of Automatic Train Stop patented in 1929 that employed lineside inductors and receivers mounted on the engines. The pioneer installation of Miller Train Control was on the C&EI main between Chicago and Danville.
Mark
From 1902-1946, the Southern Railway and the L&N were the majority owners of the Monon (the Official Name at the time was the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville Railway). However, the Monon went bankrupt in 1933, and stayed in receivership/bankruptcy until 1946. At this point, the equity (stock) that the Southern and L&N owned was wiped out when the Monon reorganized. The Monon was independent again from 1946 until 1971 (when the L&N purchased them).
Curiously, my limited knowledge of the C&EI comes from my readings on the Monon, but an interesting line in any case.
Brian
I new and worked with several ex-C&EI people on the Illinois Central. Additionally, my uncle Bob Eaton, now deceased, worked for the C&EI in the Freight Traffic Department from the late 1940's up to about to the time of the MOP merger. Needless to say I knew of the Railroad, where it ran and something of its freight market, but not very much of the details and its history.
The C&EI Historical Society has a brief history of the railroad at http://www.ceihs.org/historians_frameset.html
In the mid 80's, Old Ben Mine 21 near Benton, IL was shipping some coal on the ex-C&EI, then MOP of branch that ran from near Mt Vernon down the west side of Rend Lake. Mine 21 was mined out around 1990 and it appears from the Google images that the branch has been abandoned.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
When the Thebes bridge was completed by SIMBCO the Cotton Belt was controlled by the Gould Family. Jay Gould's son Edwin was President of the Cotton Belt from 1898-1912 and then Chairman from 1912-1925. After he retired control of the Cotton Belt went to Rock Island for a few short months, then to KCS in October 1925. The KCS sold out to a company called New York Investors, Inc in 1929 and the Espee bought a controlling stock interest in 1930.
See Extra 2200 South Issue #79 has a complete C&EI roster of diesels, motor cars and steam locomotives.
KCSfan wrote: When the bridge at Thebes was completed in 1905 the Cotton Belt expressed an interest in acquiring the C&EI but couldn't convince the management of its parent SP to go along with that idea. The threat of this prompted the Frisco to gain control of the C&EI which lasted until the Frisco declared bankruptcy in 1913. The C&EI itself went into bankruptcy in 1922 which forced it to sell its line between Lacrosse and Brazil, IN which was the former Chicago & Indiana Coal RR. The Coal Road line ran almost parrallel to the C&EI and connected with it at Goodland near Momence. When divested by the C&EI it became the Chicago Attica & Southern. The CA&S was never profitable but lingered on until it was totally abandoned in 1946. IIRC it was the largest single railroad abandonment in the US up to that time. In the early 1950's I remember seeing the remains of a fairly large round house along the C&EI around Goodland which I believe had been the CA&S engine terminal and shops.I'll add another bit of C&EI trivia. A couple of years ago when looking at an online roster of EJ&E steamers I noticed that several of their Mikados were shown as being "equipped with Miller Train Control for use on the C&EI". I'd never heard of this so I did some searching and found out the Miller system was a form of Automatic Train Stop patented in 1929 that employed lineside inductors and receivers mounted on the engines. The pioneer installation of Miller Train Control was on the C&EI main between Chicago and Danville.Mark
Because the Van Sweringen Brothers formed the Alleghany Corporation. That corporation controlled both roads.
CShaveRR wrote: C&EI was the Pere Marquette's largest interchange partner in the Chicago area (circa 1945). Anyone know why?
C&EI was the Pere Marquette's largest interchange partner in the Chicago area (circa 1945). Anyone know why?
SSW9389 wrote: When the Thebes bridge was completed by SIMBCO the Cotton Belt was controlled by the Gould Family. Jay Gould's son Edwin was President of the Cotton Belt from 1898-1912 and then Chairman from 1912-1925. After he retired control of the Cotton Belt went to Rock Island for a few short months, then to KCS in October 1925. The KCS sold out to a company called New York Investors, Inc in 1929 and the Espee bought a controlling stock interest in 1930. See Extra 2200 South Issue #79 has a complete C&EI roster of diesels, motor cars and steam locomotives. I thought the SP gained control of the Cotton Belt much earlier and should have researched its ownership before opening my mouth (not the first time I've made that mistake). Didn't the Goulds also control the MP and T&P at that time so perhaps it was because of these interests that the acquisition of the C&EI by the SSW was nixed?Mark
I thought the SP gained control of the Cotton Belt much earlier and should have researched its ownership before opening my mouth (not the first time I've made that mistake). Didn't the Goulds also control the MP and T&P at that time so perhaps it was because of these interests that the acquisition of the C&EI by the SSW was nixed?Mark
I thought the SP gained control of the Cotton Belt much earlier and should have researched its ownership before opening my mouth (not the first time I've made that mistake). Didn't the Goulds also control the MP and T&P at that time so perhaps it was because of these interests that the acquisition of the C&EI by the SSW was nixed?
SSW9389 wrote: When the Thebes bridge was completed by SIMBCO the Cotton Belt was controlled by the Gould Family. Jay Gould's son Edwin was President of the Cotton Belt from 1898-1912 and then Chairman from 1912-1925. After he retired control of the Cotton Belt went to Rock Island for a few short months, then to KCS in October 1925. The KCS sold out to a company called New York Investors, Inc in 1929 and the Espee bought a controlling stock interest in 1930. See Extra 2200 South Issue #79 has a complete C&EI roster of diesels, motor cars and steam locomotives. KCSfan wrote: When the bridge at Thebes was completed in 1905 the Cotton Belt expressed an interest in acquiring the C&EI but couldn't convince the management of its parent SP to go along with that idea. The threat of this prompted the Frisco to gain control of the C&EI which lasted until the Frisco declared bankruptcy in 1913. The C&EI itself went into bankruptcy in 1922 which forced it to sell its line between Lacrosse and Brazil, IN which was the former Chicago & Indiana Coal RR. The Coal Road line ran almost parrallel to the C&EI and connected with it at Goodland near Momence. When divested by the C&EI it became the Chicago Attica & Southern. The CA&S was never profitable but lingered on until it was totally abandoned in 1946. IIRC it was the largest single railroad abandonment in the US up to that time. In the early 1950's I remember seeing the remains of a fairly large round house along the C&EI around Goodland which I believe had been the CA&S engine terminal and shops.I'll add another bit of C&EI trivia. A couple of years ago when looking at an online roster of EJ&E steamers I noticed that several of their Mikados were shown as being "equipped with Miller Train Control for use on the C&EI". I'd never heard of this so I did some searching and found out the Miller system was a form of Automatic Train Stop patented in 1929 that employed lineside inductors and receivers mounted on the engines. The pioneer installation of Miller Train Control was on the C&EI main between Chicago and Danville.Mark
Ed,
Just as an aside, the CE&I is very important to both you and I for very similar reasons. Its merger robed us of our IC lines through our towns. When Mopac got the CE&I, it substantially diminished the IC's Chicago-St. Louis traffic--probably contributing to the abandonment of the Springfield - St. Louis line. When the L&N got the other branc of the CE&I, it dried up IC's Evansville bridge traffic, leading the the loss of your line.
Gabe
rrboomer wrote:C&EI was part of the Van Sweringen empire?
Yes, I wasn't aware of that either so I looked it up. Besides the C&O, Erie, Nickel Plate, W&LE and PM, they also had the Missouri Pacific. During 1928 they added the C&EI, no doubt to connect MP with the rest of their lines.
I've some info on the what's left of the C&EI today. The Danville depot and the Bismark Station have been moved to Kennekuck park and restored as museums [haven't been by them yet] and the station in Westville [Danville/Tuscola track] is still in place also a museum along with a caboose.
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/41134/ppuser/4309
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/41128/ppuser/4309
The tracks from there to Danville are gone, but from the Cairo line to Tuscola [UP] are still use, I think.
The tracks from Danville to Evansville are still in use and they're wanting to rebuild a coal spur at Cayuga into the power plant, to supply a new coal gasification plant.
If I remember right they use, used Union station in Terre Haute. The building is gone, but some of the stonework was saved and can be found here.
http://www.haleytower.org/
The Alice yard in Terre Haute is still in use. I think it's where CSX changes crews on UP coal drags with INRR.
The yard in Villa Grove is still in use, though not as big as I remember from the 60's. The roundhouse and a few other building are still standing [or they were 3 months ago] and most could be restored.
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/51336/ppuser/4309
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/51346/ppuser/4309
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/51332/ppuser/4309
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/51329/ppuser/4309
That's about all I know of the C&EI, I sure have enjoyed all the info posted about them here, thanks guys
inch
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/4309
Ok, now for current day operations on the south end...
There appear to be two routes from the original CEI line over to the MoPac river line, one diverging at Mt. Vernon and one at Benton. Which line see the regular movement of the freights? or do both lines handle the freights?
Second, how does the PRB coal move in this area? At one time there was UP coal trains moving on the IC line from St. Louis southeast. I assume these went to Padacah, or somewhere close, for transloading onto barges. Is that still the routing? or do they utilize their own lines?
Is there any coal originating from any of the Southern Illinois mines on the UP? Doesnt the BNSF still originate a little coal down there on their line to Southern Illinois, or is that mainly PRB coal for transloading heading south?
MP173 wrote: There appear to be two routes from the original CEI line over to the MoPac river line, one diverging at Mt. Vernon and one at Benton. Which line see the regular movement of the freights? or do both lines handle the freights?
Ed, UP's CTC Chicago Sub between Dolton and Gorham includes the ex C&EI to Benton and then the ex MP to Gorham, on the River line (Chester Sub), and handles the tonnage. The Mount Vernon-Chester line, the Pickneyville Sub, is shown as dark territory in UP's 1986 ETT. It is about 20 miles longer than going through Benton.
The latest I could find on Illinois Coal production and rail shipments is for 2005. For that year, the UP handled only about 670,000 tons of Illinois coal from 5 mines. Three of the mines are at ex-C&EI points in Jackson and Perry Counties and accounted for about 109 thousand tons. Black Beauty Coal's Gateway mine is on the UP 5 miles south of Coulterville, IL. I'll need you Illinois guys to identify the predecessor owner of that line. As late as 2003 that mine had produced 2.5 million tons, but there was a change of ownership in 2004 with the big drop in production.
Monterey Mine #1 is in Macoupin County off the ex-GM&O Chicago-St Louis Line and is also served by the NS. In 2004 NS got 2.4 million tons out of that mine, while the UP only got 76 thousand. Makes sense as a westward haul on the UP is sort of taking coal to Newcastle.
In 2004, shipments of Illinois Coal by rail totaled 17.16 million tons. CN had 46% of the total, NS-24% and CSX 19%, the balance hauled by BNSF and UP.
Needless to say the UP and BNSF are probably hauling big tonnages of PRB coal the major river terminals at Metropolis, IL on the Ohio (BN) and Grand Rivers, KY on the Tennessee (P&L).
Jeaton:Thanks for the info. I used Google Earth and found what appears to be a mine loadout (loop track) a few miles southwest of Coulterville. That line is the old Missouri - Illinois line which ran from Salem (later Centralia) to the Mississippi River. It was owned by the Missouri Pacific.
At 2.5 million tons, that would equate to about 150 loaded unit trains per year, a pretty good amount of coal but, as you state, that was 2003.
Ed
Thanks. After so many years, I had forgotten about the M-I. I really need to acquire a mid 60's railway guide so I can refresh my memory.
Jay
I grew up accros the crick from the 2.4 million mine. Although the tonage is impressive, the length of the haul is not--it is hauled to a power plant in Coffeen about 40 miles away as the crow flies . . .
Rumor is, Coffeen will not be getting PRB coal, and they will be shutting that line and mine down.
Jeaton:I would suggest a mid 50's OG rather than 60's. Considerably more passenger schedules and the merger movement hadnt started yet.
Ebay always has some on sale.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
It had a direct route from Chicago to the L&N in Evansville. Probably the quickest route to the Ohio River.
To clarify- Monterrey Mine is not directly on the ex-GM&O. The mine is actually located on a segment of the former Illinois Terminal main line which connects to the ex-CNW South Pekin Sub at Monterrey Jct.- which is just north of Gillespie. Along the mine spur- the track passes the former Loveless IT substation- which the last time I had passed was still standing.
At Monterrey Jct. the CNW line to the south is now owned by the NS (as stated) and to the north is in up to Girard under UP ownership where it eventually connects to the ex-GM&O main line via a new connector track put in in 2000. Aside from the Coffeen coal trains loaded by the NS (and predecessor CNW), the CNW used to load coal trains for Cedar Rapids and the IT once loaded unit trains for Machens, MO in conjunction with the BN.
Gabe- to answer your rumor- the power plant at Coffeen has been getting PRB coal in addition to the Monterrey coal for years. The UP has run PRB unit trains to the NS at St. Louis bound for Coffeen- loaded out of Antelope Mine in WY. Symbol for these trains is CATCF and is loaded in CAEG hoppers (Coffeen and Western marks!). Monterrey Mine coal loaded out by the UP now occasionally goes to Cedar Falls on the IANR- symbol for those trains is CMMCI- it uses UP system cars. I'm not sure what you mean when you say Coffeen is shutting down- since that's the generating station and not the mine. If you mean Monterrey- it's been an off an on rumor for the last 20 years that the mine would shut down due to the sulfur content of the coal mined there- yet it still mines away. Unlike alot of the other mines in Southern Illinois that couldn't compete with the low-sulfur PRB coal- Monterrey seems to have somehow stayed afloat.
Seeing the Monterrey coal train arrive and do it's runaround dance in Edwardsville was a daily ritual for me- and even though the routing has changed I still try to keep up with the operations of the trains on the NS/BNSF route now.
nordique72 wrote: To clarify- Monterrey Mine is not directly on the ex-GM&O. The mine is actually located on a segment of the former Illinois Terminal main line which connects to the ex-CNW South Pekin Sub at Monterrey Jct.- which is just north of Gillespie. Along the mine spur- the track passes the former Loveless IT substation- which the last time I had passed was still standing. At Monterrey Jct. the CNW line to the south is now owned by the NS (as stated) and to the north is in up to Girard under UP ownership where it eventually connects to the ex-GM&O main line via a new connector track put in in 2000. Aside from the Coffeen coal trains loaded by the NS (and predecessor CNW), the CNW used to load coal trains for Cedar Rapids and the IT once loaded unit trains for Machens, MO in conjunction with the BN.Gabe- to answer your rumor- the power plant at Coffeen has been getting PRB coal in addition to the Monterrey coal for years. The UP has run PRB unit trains to the NS at St. Louis bound for Coffeen- loaded out of Antelope Mine in WY. Symbol for these trains is CATCF and is loaded in CAEG hoppers (Coffeen and Western marks!). Monterrey Mine coal loaded out by the UP now occasionally goes to Cedar Falls on the IANR- symbol for those trains is CMMCI- it uses UP system cars. I'm not sure what you mean when you say Coffeen is shutting down- since that's the generating station and not the mine. If you mean Monterrey- it's been an off an on rumor for the last 20 years that the mine would shut down due to the sulfur content of the coal mined there- yet it still mines away. Unlike alot of the other mines in Southern Illinois that couldn't compete with the low-sulfur PRB coal- Monterrey seems to have somehow stayed afloat. Seeing the Monterrey coal train arrive and do it's runaround dance in Edwardsville was a daily ritual for me- and even though the routing has changed I still try to keep up with the operations of the trains on the NS/BNSF route now.
I did mean Monterrey, as you are correct about Coffeen running strong. However, I just heard from my father, who still lives in the area, Monterrey is being sold and if they can't sell it by January 1, it is being shut down.
I went to college in Edwardsville, I have been delayed by that train stopping on the tracks more than once. Gabe
Well, it looks like the sale of the Monterrey Mine fell through this week and Exxon will be closing the mine. That is disappointing since that sale had been in the works for so long and seemed like a sure thing at the time to keep it open. Perhaps since Exxon Mobil is getting out of the coal business they will find a new buyer who will take the chance at reopening it sometime down the road- much like what happened up at Crown III by Farmersville on the old IC.
In regards to C&EI content before I get too off topic- I remember as kid there was a highway overpass near Findlay Jct, IL that had the C&EI herald and name spelled out on it. Anyone know if it is still there (or legible?)
What is the routing now for the Coffeen coal trains from Monterray? Do they still go to Edwardsville and then up the old NKP line?
MP173 wrote: What is the routing now for the Coffeen coal trains from Monterray? Do they still go to Edwardsville and then up the old NKP line?ed
(1) I gather from another thread that you are headed downstate. I wish you would let me know to meet if at all possible. But, of course, I understand if you are too busy.
(2) To answer your question, No. Sadly, and seemingly incredibly, there are no Train tracks in Edwardsville proper any longer. They abandoned botht he Nickle Platte and the CNW line. The Route now is, NS goes over the old IT for about a mile and a half, onto the old CNW line South to Stauton, then they head back north on the NS Wabash main to Litchfield, then they head South on the old CB&Q BNSF to Sorento, then head east on the old Nickle Platte on the NS. In coming up with this new "Superior Route," they abandoned the CNW from Stautoon to Granite City and the Nickle Plate from Sorento to Granite City. Sad days . . .
Gabe:No downstate trips planned at this time....my reference to Muncie is more of the "next time" trip, as my son is just about done with the semester and I certainly wouldnt want to interrupt his academic or social life!
I will be heading down to Bloomington, Noblesville, Mt. Vernon, and Lafayette after February 1st for AAU hoops. Also, might be down over the holidays to Indy. Will let you know. Hope everything is well.
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