Chicago and Eastern Illinois lines thru Illinois

[MP173]

Interesting conversations have been developed lately about a number of midwest topics including the ex GMO line thru Illinois, Peoria, Kankakee (and belt line), Logansport, and a resurrection of an old CN thread.  Life is good once again on Trains Magazine forums.

A comparison was made between the two UP lines to St. Louis (Chicago), namely the GMO line and the CEI line.  I would like to expand that a bit to concentrate on the CEI line that proceeded south from Chciago and wishboned at Woodlawn Jct, one line to Evansville the other to St. Louis and Illmo, Il.

Does anyone have an idea of the traffic patterns on these lines prior to the MoPac purchase and split to L&N in the late 60's?  I really think that was one of the more important mergers in the 60's as:

1.  It worked

2.  It gave access to both MoPac and L&N to the Chicago market, thus setting a chain of mergers into play.

3.  St. Louis was suddenly bypassed on certain traffic.

Both in historical and current views, what info do you have available on this line?

Personally, I know very little about the lines.  It does seem both the CSX and UP have utilized these heavily.  CN (IC) traffic levels seem about the same as 30 years ago...no doubt as traffic is now moving on parallel lines.

Does anyone have info on the operations of the UP line?

thanks,

 

ed

[Murphy Siding]

     So that I don't have to go up to my third floor(where it's BRR!! cold now) to look this up in some railroad books, can someone please give me the background/history of the CEI?  Thanks

ps. Ed- the Trains Magazine forums are whatever we make them to be.

[carknocker1]

The CSX side is very busy , CSX has been adding long sidings to help ease conjestion through Southern Indiana , they are also building a new yard for crew changes and refueling at the old KINGS Mine north of Princeton Indiana.

[gabe]

Lest not forget, INRD ex MILW traffic on the line.

Gabe

[MP173]

Not much discussion on this topic.  It sorta confirms my initial thoughts that the C&EI didnt have nearly the following that other railroads had.  Further, there doesnt seem to be much interest or information on the current operations.

Could it be this is one of the least railfanned lines in the Midwest?

 

ed

[CopCarSS]

Was C&EI the railroad that ran the "two of a kind" road switchers that looked like an EMD attempt at an RS1 (RS1325's maybe?)? Or was that the C&IM?

[gabe]

Not much discussion on this topic.  It sorta confirms my initial thoughts that the C&EI didnt have nearly the following that other railroads had.  Further, there doesnt seem to be much interest or information on the current operations.

Could it be this is one of the least railfanned lines in the Midwest?

 

ed

I am embarrased to say that I never heard of the CE&I until about 8-9 years ago.

Gabe

[nanaimo73]

The Chicago & Eastern Illinois had 3 GP 30s which were 239, 240 and 241. These became Missouri Pacific 590 to 592 and then Louisville and Nashville 1058 to 1060. I'd love to see a picture of them on the MP, as they were the only GP30 locomotives on the big railroad. 
C&EI 240 Picture

[MP173]

Gabe:

No apologies needed.  I find that my interest in railroad history generally only extends as far back as my awareness.  In other words, railroads that were in existance during my life are interesting to me...those corporate entities prior to that have very very little interest.

With the CEI merger in 1967, MoPac became very formidable.  I have read Craig Minor'smodern history of the MoPac, but very little was discussed about the merger.  Looking at Official Guides one can see there was a healthy passenger business from Chicago to Evansville, connecting with the L&N.  Chicago - St Louis wasnt really a market for them as there was strong competition with IC and Wabash. 

Dale, I will take a look at a couple of magazines and see if I can find any photos of hte GP30's.

MoPac has always interested me, probably because as a nine year old in 1964 we rode the Colorado Eagle to Pueblo on family vacation. 

I did find Craig Minor's book (The Rebirth of the Missouri Pacific) to be an excellent study of the history of Mopac from the Depression era to the merger with UP.  It was well written and informative.  Dowling Jenks was a railroader, no doubt.

ed

[SSW9389]

In Fred Frailey's book Blue Streak Merchandise there is a chapter called The Great Speed War. It details how the Cotton Belt tried to merge the C&EI. The corporate relationship between the two railroads was fostered by their respective leaders: Harold McKenzie for Cotton Belt and Clair Roddewig for C&EI. The idea of bypassing St. Louis was prime in this idea as the two roads connected at Thebes, Illinois. McKenzie could not sell the idea to Espee headquarters in San Francisco and the merger idea died on the vine. The thought was that bypassing St. Louis would anger friendly connections there. The one thing that the almost merger did trigger was a speed up of national schedules across the western tier. The Blue Streak Merchandise that took 93 hours from E. St. Louis to Los Angeles was goosed up to a 65.5 hour schedule on March 14, 1958.  

Ed

[SSW9389]

Speaking of the proposed C&EI/Cotton Belt merger Harold McKenzie said, "I told Mr. Russell , 'You're going to be in a fix. C&EI wants in with somebody, and if we don't buy it, Missouri Pacific will.' He didn't agree, and that ended it." From Blue Streak Merchandise page 34, by Fred Frailey.     

[CShaveRR]

Was C&EI the railroad that ran the "two of a kind" road switchers that looked like an EMD attempt at an RS1 (RS1325's maybe?)? Or was that the C&IM?

Chris, that was the C&IM; they're still doing their stuff for the Illinois & Midland.

There is a C&EI Historical Society.  By the time I became a less provincial railfan, C&EI was already under MoPac influence. 

Here's a tidbit to fuel the fire, though.  C&EI was the Pere Marquette's largest interchange partner in the Chicago area (circa 1945).  Anyone know why?

[steve14]

Growing up in the south suburbs of Chicago, the C&EI was one of the close by roads. My grandmother frequently traveld from Evansville on the Hummingbird to visit us. We would pick her up at Crete. Wish I had a shot of that train from then.

Many years later, I worked two summers during college on the construction of Yard Center as a section laborer. (68 and 69) I remember seeing the remnant of the Hummingbird rolling by with a single E unit with what looked like a hand painted L&N on the side and two coahes. Sad.

 It was during these summers I learned to drive spikes, which served me well in 72 when I started on the UP section crew at Lawrence, Ks. The assistant foreman on our gang of misfit college students at Yard Center was Herman Taylor. He is the one who taught me to spike.

Fast forward to about 1988. I am now Assistant Regional Engineer for the Soo Line at Bensenville shortly after we had bought the Milwaukee Road. One of our trains coming up from Indiana had derailed near Dolton Jct and I had to go down and make an assessment of the damage that we would be billed for on the clean up. Guess who the first person I run into there was? Herman Taylor, now foreman at Yard Center. Small world.

[MP173]

This is only a wild guess, Carl, but I would say it was the interchange of coal coming up from Southern Illinois.

ed

[MP173]

Took a look at an old Moody's Manual and from 1968 thru 1971 the tonnage on the CEI really plunged.  It went from 18,122,562 tons in 1968 to 11,182,613 in 1971.  The biggest drop was in coal from 6.5million tons to 2.9 million tons in 1971.

So, the CEI went from being a coal carrier to a general freight carrier.  I dont know if the coal fields in Southern Illinois played out, or what, but MoPac came along about the right time. 

ed

[rrboomer]

I think I can help somewhat with a picture of C&EI operations on the north end in late1964.

For trains I am sure of, they still had 3 Chgo-Evansville passenger trains. For freight operations they had two piggyback trains, one for Evansville (2nd 95) and one for St Louis (ran as 2nd 93 Yard Center-Woodland Jct). There was one night YC-Evansville general freight train (No 57) and one night YC-St Louis general freight No. 61.

What I'm not sure of is if they had another set of general freight trains for E'vill and St L. leave Yard Center in the the day time as I never worked first hours at Thornton Jct, only second and mainly third hours.

About the time the last of the GP35's were delivered there was a once a week 100 car unit coal train from southern Illinois to the CSS&SB. During the summer and fall there was usually  about five 150-170 car coal trains for the BRC.

There was also a nightly Ford Run (using a yard crew) from Yard Center to the Ford Plant at Chgo Hts on the CHTT. It took cars out to Chgo Hts and then ran thru YC on the way back and delivered the Ford cars.

 

 

[daveklepper]

My first encounter with the C&EI was in the summer of 1952 when I worked in La Grange for EMD between my junior and senior MIT years.   They were still running a sparce commuter service with Stillwell coaches like the Erie's commuter coaches out of Jersey City.   This confused me into thinking the line was  subsidiary of the Erie .  Bob Konsbrook at EMS set me straight.   At that time they still had a full service to St. Louis in competition with the Wabash and GM&O and daily service to Florida on one or more heavyweight trains and the tri-weekly streamliner Dixie Flagler.   Not much of this service remained when I lived in Wesmount, IL 1967-1970.

[KCSfan]

The C&EI bowed out of the Chi - StL passenger business when they discontinued the Zipper in the 1953-4 time period due to too much competetion from the GM&O, IC and Wabash. Sometime post WW2 the C&EI put two spiffy little streamliners comlete with diner-lounges in service. These were the Meadowlark running between Chi and Thebes/Joppa and the Whiporwill (later renamed the Shawnee IIRC) between Chi and Evansville. In the mid 50's, in addition to these two, the C&EI ran four other daily trains plus the every third day Dixie Flagler between Chi and Evansville. The Dixie Flagler and Dixie Flyer to Florida, the Georgian to Atlanta and the Hummingbird to New Orleans all operated south of Evansville on the L&N. 

The C&EI main was always considered to be Chi - Evansville. Except for a few short branches, the rest of the road split off the main at Woodland Jct. (82 miles south of Chi) and ran southwest to Findlay (mp 185) where it split again with one line going the StL and the other to Cypress (mp 345). From Cypress one line continued to Jopp (mp 363) on the Ohio River and the other ran another 49 miles to Chaffee, MO crossing the Mississippi at Thebes. I believe the bridge at Thebes was owned by the C&EI though it could have been jointly owned with the Cotton Belt and/or MoPac both of which also used it.

When the MoPac bought parts of the C&EI they got access from StL into Chicago and the ICG and N&W (Wabash) both lost the MoPac freight business they formerly had between the two cities. I don't know but assume the MoPac also acquired the C&EI's lines between Findlay and Chaffee and Joppa. The MP already reached well into Illinois as far as Salem with a roughly parallel line of its Missouri-Illinois subsidiary. I would think the MoPac would have picked the best of the two routes to upgrade and sell off or abandon the other. I just don't know and hopefully someone have factual info to add as I am only guessing. I do know the MoPac invested heavily in its ex-C&EI line(s) to make it into a modern high speed freight route with heavy CWR, CTC and long passing tracks. I know little about current traffic on the CSX (ex-L&N) portion of former C&EI between Evansville and Danville. I do believe traffic density north of Danville to Chicago picks up since the NS (ex-Wabash) now routes all its Chi - StL freight over that line.

As a young boy I got invited up into the cab of a C&EI Pacific at the head of one of the Dixie trains while it made its brief station stop at Chicago Heights. Later in my early teens I toured the C&EI shops at Danville on a Railroad Club of Chicago fan trip. At Danville I was fascinated by an old but proudly maintained 4-4-2 that was awaiting its daily run at the head of the passenger local to Villa Grove. It was my first, and one of only a few, sight I ever had of an Atlantic in actual service. Thanks to memories like these I've always taken a special likening to the old C&EI.

Mark 

 

[MP173]

Mark:

Thanks for the info.  I will check my old OG's later today, but I think the CEI ran a RDC type car on the Southern Illinois route in the 50's.

The Mopac purchase seems to have really impacted the IC.  Not only did they lose the St Louis interchange, but the branch line from Evansville to Mattoon lost the L&N interchange.  I recall seeing fairly large trains on that line (up to 100 cars and three GP7/9).  The size of the trains started to get smaller and smaller so that by end of the 70's a 30 car train was typical.

I believe that NS routes it's Chicago - Decatur traffic on the CN (down to Gilman) then to Farmer City and then ex Wabash route to Decatur. 

MoPac changed the railroading landscape considerably with that purchase of CEI.  It really set things in motion as far as future mergers were concerned. 

ed

[SSW9389]

Mark & All: I'll fill you all in on the bridge linking Thebes, Illinois with Illmo, Missouri. The bridge was owned by the Southern Illinois & Missouri Bridge Company or SIMBCO. The company was owned 60% by Missouri Pacific and 40% by St. Louis Southwestern. Data from Moody's. 

Ed

The C&EI main was always considered to be Chi - Evansville. Except for a few short branches, the rest of the road split off the main at Woodland Jct. (82 miles south of Chi) and ran southwest to Findlay (mp 185) where it split again with one line going the StL and the other to Cypress (mp 345). From Cypress one line continued to Jopp (mp 363) on the Ohio River and the other ran another 49 miles to Chaffee, MO crossing the Mississippi at Thebes. I believe the bridge at Thebes was owned by the C&EI though it could have been jointly owned with the Cotton Belt and/or MoPac both of which also used it.

Mark 

 

[CopCarSS]

So, the CEI went from being a coal carrier to a general freight carrier.  I dont know if the coal fields in Southern Illinois played out, or what, but MoPac came along about the right time. 

Ed,

I'm not sure of the whole story of Southern Ill coal, but I seem to recall that it has a very high sulphur content and isn't very "green." I don't know if that had an impact as early as 1971, but I know a lot of Illinois coal mines were shutting down by the end of the 70's because of the competition from the low sulphur western coal.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

C&EI delivered its unit coal trains directly to South Shore at Burnham Yard, using the CWI between Yard Center and Burnham.  The trains would tie up Burnham Ave for a very long time as they crept into Burnham Yard.  At first, South Shore would have to deliver the coal to NIPSCO in two trains from Burnham since the electrical system could not supply enough current to a Joe to move 100 cars of coal at once, even with a diesel pusher (cow-calf sets leased from parent C&O).

DPM once opined in "Second Section" that an appropriate nickname for C&EI might have been "The Ordinary Railroad".

[KCSfan]

Mark:

Thanks for the info.  I will check my old OG's later today, but I think the CEI ran a RDC type car on the Southern Illinois route in the 50's.

I believe that NS routes it's Chicago - Decatur traffic on the CN (down to Gilman) then to Farmer City and then ex Wabash route to Decatur. 

MoPac changed the railroading landscape considerably with that purchase of CEI.  It really set things in motion as far as future mergers were concerned. 

ed

Hi Ed,

You're right about the RDC. The Meadowlark and Shawnee both ran as conventional trains with  diner/lounges at least until June 1954 (the date of my last pertinent OG). I don't know exactly when but sometime later the Meadowlark became a two car RDC trainset which was reduced to just one RDC in its last years. I think the Shawnee also became a RDC operation about the same time.

Now that you mention it you may very well be right about the NS having trackage rights and running it's ex-Wabash line freight over the CN/IC and not the C&EI from Danville north as I said. I'm still a bit unsure on this and hopefully someone with positive current information will post a reply.

Didn't the L&N first gain direct entrance to Chicago by it acquisition of the Monon? I seem to recall this resulted in some loss of freight traffic on the C&EI's main as the L&N re-routed quite a bit of it through Louisville and on to Chicago instead of the Evansville routing.

SSW Ed, thanks for the info on the ownership of the bridge at Thebes.

Mark

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

L&N's acquisition of the Evansville leg of C&EI was opposed by Monon and L&N eliminated this opposition by agreeing to absorb Monon.

NS has trackage rights over IC between Chicago and Gibson City to compensate for the abandonment of the ex-WAB line between Manhattan and Gibson City.

[CopCarSS]

Chris, that was the C&IM; they're still doing their stuff for the Illinois & Midland.

Cool. I always liked the very industrial look of them. Plus, they really did remind me of the RS-1. One of these days I'd like to get some shots of them.

[RRFoose]

L&N's acquisition of the Evansville leg of C&EI was opposed by Monon and L&N eliminated this opposition by agreeing to absorb Monon.

NS has trackage rights over IC between Chicago and Gibson City to compensate for the abandonment of the ex-WAB line between Manhattan and Gibson City.

L&N got their half of C&EI in 1969 and merged the Monon in 1971, so that makes sense.  Didn't the Southern have a large stake in the Monon too?  They didn't have access to Chicago, so I'm confused as to why they would let L&N take the Monon too.

As a modeler, I always thought it would be fun to model a modern-day C&EI - jointly owned by UP and CSX.  You can still have plenty of run-throughs with it's parents power, but you could also make up your own roster and paint scheme.  But I'm not sure how logical it would have been for MP and L&N to keep the C&EI as a whole railroad, with each owning half, and use it as a terminating company.  It shouldn't be to hard to have run-throughs and crew change points setup to smooth transitions.  Maybe with such large parents, the C&EI could have sought out a merger partner such as GM&O giving them direct access to the port of Mobile.  Granted, most of the rest of the line wouldn't be of much use...  But that's a modeler's dream!  Maybe if the SSW had gotten ahold of C&EI, it too would have remained independant - but I'm sure it'd be painted up in the company colors of SP.

[MP173]

Looking back, the SP's lack of desire to purchase the CEI has to be one  of the biggest long term acts of omission in the modern day history of railroading.

Sure, they would have offended some of their interchange partners, but they would have bypassed St. Louis, could have interchanged the B&O traffic on the line, also the PRR at Altamont and would have been in Chicago giving ATSF some competition for Chicago = California freight.

ed

[nanaimo73]

Looking back, the SP's lack of desire to purchase the CEI has to be one  of the biggest long term acts of omission in the modern day history of railroading.

Sure, they would have offended some of their interchange partners, but they would have bypassed St. Louis, could have interchanged the B&O traffic on the line, also the PRR at Altamont and would have been in Chicago giving ATSF some competition for Chicago = California freight.

ed

Good point, Ed.

Would MP have been forced into a merger ? With Southern, or Santa Fe ?

[KCSfan]

L&N's acquisition of the Evansville leg of C&EI was opposed by Monon and L&N eliminated this opposition by agreeing to absorb Monon.

NS has trackage rights over IC between Chicago and Gibson City to compensate for the abandonment of the ex-WAB line between Manhattan and Gibson City.

L&N got their half of C&EI in 1969 and merged the Monon in 1971, so that makes sense.  Didn't the Southern have a large stake in the Monon too?  They didn't have access to Chicago, so I'm confused as to why they would let L&N take the Monon too.

Thanks to both of you for the info. I stand corrected on the current NS routing and the timing of the L&N's acquisitions of the C&EI's Evansville line and the Monon.

Mark

[hytwr1]

The Chicago & Eastern Illinois had 3 GP 30s which were 239, 240 and 241. These became Missouri Pacific 590 to 592 and then Louisville and Nashville 1058 to 1060. I'd love to see a picture of them on the MP, as they were the only GP30 locomotives on the big railroad. 
C&EI 240 Picture

Believe it or not one of those GP30's still exists on CSX...as a Road Slug!