Railway Man wrote: But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?RWM
But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?
RWM
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Railway Man wrote: I wouldn't worry about it, us traditionalists are always beet red about something or another.But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?RWM
I wouldn't worry about it, us traditionalists are always beet red about something or another.
Ooops...just read the rules and found out internet usage is cheating, so I deleted my last answer. My apologies...
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
Murphy Siding wrote: Railway Man wrote: But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?RWMAn *out there* wild guess- Something to do with FEC and trade to Cuba? I seem to think maybe SP was involved in steamship lines as well?
Murph: Guessing is good. You're halfway there ...
Chris: This ain't Queen's Rules history quiz. Like one of my bosses used to say, "Cheat 'till you get caught, then lie."
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Railway Man wrote:Chris: This ain't Queen's Rules history quiz. Like one of my bosses used to say, "Cheat 'till you get caught, then lie." RWM
That's great. I'll have to use that in the future.
I think I'll still sit back and let Murph or someone else run with it for awhile. If we don't get it in a day or so, I'll post my cheated researched answer again.
I've always heard the West India Fruit and Steamship Company mentioned in connection with railroads. That would possibly tie in with Cuba.
As for Seatrain Lines, I'm curious. I once saw an RBNX reefer fully painted gray, with a "Seatrain" logo. After that, I heard practically nothing about them.
I'd bet that the Cuban "crisis" had a bit to do with the demise of both. Or was Seatrain a new name for WIF?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Seatrain was formed in 1929 to carry entire rail cars on specially designed vessels between the ports of New Orleans and West Palm Beach, and Havana, Cuba. The Cuban Revolution in 1960 and subsequent trade embargoes killed that profitable service, and it switched to offering coastwise service between New York and Texas City, and ports inbetween. Rate cuts by railroads drove it from this trade and it changed to U.S.-Puerto Rico service, which was a market 1/10 that of U.S.-Cuba. An offer to purchase was made in 1963 by U.S. Freight Forwarders but the ICC dithered and in May 1965 it was purchased by Transeastern Associates, a creation of a couple of former furriers that started running Liberty ships in tramp service in 1950 and soon branched into tankers, later building the Manhattan of Northwest Passage-Prudhoe Bay crude oil fame (the costs of which almost ruined the company). Seatrain had the name and the organization so it became the surviving entity. An innovator, Seatrain was an early proponent of containerization and built a new business serving the U.S. Government in Vietnam with tankers and containerized freight, then pioneered the first landbridge service from the Orient to the U.S. west coast by ocean, and coast to coast by rail, in 1971, reducing by 10 days the 30 day all-water journey via the Panama Canal. Cutthroat competition from foreign shipping lines, U.S. government policy that ensured it could not compete on even terms, and some bad decisions made in desperation, forced it into selling its assets one by one to foreign shipping lines or other U.S. lines that were barely hanging on, until it declared bankruptcy on the shell in 1981. It was never owned by a railroad that I know of.
Look to the other half of Murphy's guess. Actually there were two different steamship lines involved there with railroad ownership.
CopCarSS wrote: Railway Man wrote: I wouldn't worry about it, us traditionalists are always beet red about something or another.But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?RWMOoops...just read the rules and found out internet usage is cheating, so I deleted my last answer. My apologies...
My WAG was soooo wrong. In my jobs as transportation manager for various companies, I was never that involved in import/export moves so I didn't pay much attention to the ocean business. After I posted, I Googled Sea-Train and learned that they actually pre-dated Malcom McLean with the idea of moving freight from an inland origin to an overseas destination without transloading to a bulk freighter. At the beginning, they loaded freight cars, trucks and all, into the holds of their vessels and onto tracks in the holds. They started the service long after car ferry services around the country were moving intact freight cars over inland waters, but they were the first to move cars in vessels made for ocean transit.
In the last half of 1965, I was assigned to the port operations office at Cam Rahn Bay, Viet Nam and saw the first containers to arrive at what was the primary supply depot for the US Armed Forces. After having observed many bulk cargo ships being unloaded one pallet at a time, I recognized a big leap in the efficiency of moving freight over oceans. However at the time something was more important. Reefer trailers brought in frozen meat and finally provided us relief from the canned product which was lumps of something in glue. Some of the trailers were left to make ice-a very prized item at a place with 120 degree temperatures and no AC anywhere on the base.
How about the Southern Pacific Steamships that operated between New Orleans and New York.
Canadian National also operated Steamships in the thirties.
And wasn't there the Great Northern/Northern Pacific Steamship lines that operated the two Ships SS Great Northern and SS Northern Pacific between the Mouth of the Columbia river and San Francisco faster than the SP trains operated.
And what about the FEC operating steamships from Key West to Cuba.
Rats, no one thought of the most important one, the Pacific Mail Steamship Company. Formed in 1848 to carry mail between the Isthmus of Panama and San Francisco, it won the shipping lottery a year later when gold was discovered in California and business boomed. Purchased by Southern Pacific Railroad in 1893 and run by a former USN captain named Rennie Schwerin, "the rare navy officer who combined a knowledge of merchant ships with uncanny business ability and foresight," it ran a stellar operation in the Pacific basin, extending and expanding U.S trade to every shore. Although Pacific Mail did not require subsidies like its foreign competition did, Congress decided to punish it anyway when it wrote the Panama Canal Act in 1912, which allowed free passage to any line except lines owned by U.S. railroads -- in other words, a subsidized foreign ship could use the canal but a non-subsidized U.S.-flag ship could not! That killed Pacific Mail Steamship and from then on U.S.-flagged steamships were pushed out of the Pacific by foreign governments not beknighted by abtruse idealism.
SP sold Pacific Mail to Grace Line in 1916, which sold it to Robert Dollar Line in 1925, which became American President Lines in 1936 -- all of them heavily subsidized by the U.S. government, and all destined to failure.
Other North American railroad-owned blue-water steamship lines of which I am aware:
Canadian National Steamship Co. was created in 1928 by Canadian National Railway to take over the Canadian Goverment Merchant Marine, Ltd., and ran Montreal/Halifax-West Indies, Vancouver-Alaska (very short-lived), and Vancouver-Australia (until 1936), until 1958.
Canadian Northern Steamships Ltd., owned by Canadian Northern Railway, operated two ships between Avonmouth and Halifax, Quebec, and Montreal, from 1910-1914, the company was taken over by Cunard in 1916.
Canadian Pacific Steamships Ltd., founded in 1884 by Canadian Paific Railway, operated blue-water services from 1891 to 1979, was demerged in 2001, and sold to Hapag-Lloyd in 2005.
Great Northern Steamship Co., owned by Great Northern Railway, operated 1900-1917 originally with two monster ships, Minnesota and Dakota, then two much smaller ships, the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific. The Dakota was lost on a reef at two years of age and the Northern Pacific burned and sunk in 1922.
Occidental & Oriental Steamship Co., formed in 1874 by Central Pacific Railroad, all ships chartered from the White Star Line, and ceased operation in 1905 under intense competition from subsidized Japanese ships.
Peninsular & Occidental Steamship, formed in 1900 by a consortium of railroads to provide service between Miami-Key West-Tampa and Cuba, entered the Miami-Bahamas cruise business after the Cuban revolution in 1960, and was liquidated in 1967. I don't know which railroads had an interest in this line and when their interest ended.
Sea-Land, created out of Waterman Steamship in 1960 by Malcolm MacClean, owned by CSX from 1986 to 1999, and sold to Maersk.
Chris, Murphy, Passengerfan -- you're all up for the next question.
I'm not the best at formulating questions, so this one might be kind of easy. The photo below is arguably one of the most famous in American history. Who took it?
Railway Man wrote: Rats, no one thought of the most important one, the Pacific Mail Steamship Company. Formed in 1848 to carry mail between the Isthmus of Panama and San Francisco, it won the shipping lottery a year later when gold was discovered in California and business boomed. Purchased by Southern Pacific Railroad in 1893 and run by a former USN captain named Rennie Schwerin, "the rare navy officer who combined a knowledge of merchant ships with uncanny business ability and foresight," it ran a stellar operation in the Pacific basin, extending and expanding U.S trade to every shore. Although Pacific Mail did not require subsidies like its foreign competition did, Congress decided to punish it anyway when it wrote the Panama Canal Act in 1912, which allowed free passage to any line except lines owned by U.S. railroads -- in other words, a subsidized foreign ship could use the canal but a non-subsidized U.S.-flag ship could not! That killed Pacific Mail Steamship and from then on U.S.-flagged steamships were pushed out of the Pacific by foreign governments not beknighted by abtruse idealism. SP sold Pacific Mail to Grace Line in 1916, which sold it to Robert Dollar Line in 1925, which became American President Lines in 1936 -- all of them heavily subsidized by the U.S. government, and all destined to failure.Other North American railroad-owned blue-water steamship lines of which I am aware:Canadian National Steamship Co. was created in 1928 by Canadian National Railway to take over the Canadian Goverment Merchant Marine, Ltd., and ran Montreal/Halifax-West Indies, Vancouver-Alaska (very short-lived), and Vancouver-Australia (until 1936), until 1958. Canadian Northern Steamships Ltd., owned by Canadian Northern Railway, operated two ships between Avonmouth and Halifax, Quebec, and Montreal, from 1910-1914, the company was taken over by Cunard in 1916.Canadian Pacific Steamships Ltd., founded in 1884 by Canadian Paific Railway, operated blue-water services from 1891 to 1979, was demerged in 2001, and sold to Hapag-Lloyd in 2005.Great Northern Steamship Co., owned by Great Northern Railway, operated 1900-1917 originally with two monster ships, Minnesota and Dakota, then two much smaller ships, the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific. The Dakota was lost on a reef at two years of age and the Northern Pacific burned and sunk in 1922.Occidental & Oriental Steamship Co., formed in 1874 by Central Pacific Railroad, all ships chartered from the White Star Line, and ceased operation in 1905 under intense competition from subsidized Japanese ships.Peninsular & Occidental Steamship, formed in 1900 by a consortium of railroads to provide service between Miami-Key West-Tampa and Cuba, entered the Miami-Bahamas cruise business after the Cuban revolution in 1960, and was liquidated in 1967. I don't know which railroads had an interest in this line and when their interest ended.Sea-Land, created out of Waterman Steamship in 1960 by Malcolm MacClean, owned by CSX from 1986 to 1999, and sold to Maersk.Chris, Murphy, Passengerfan -- you're all up for the next question.RWM
Just a gloss, not an answer: didn't Espee also own/control the two overnight steamships that plied between L.A. and San Francisco ? I don't know the actual So.Cal. port from which the NB ships departed, but feel pretty sure the Espee ferry terminal in San Francisco itself would have served well: the boats, while passenger boats, were not particularly large. That doesn't mean the north end of the route was the Espee ferry terminal in S.F., I can't prove that but only surmise. And at the risk of being overly defensive, is terms like "plied [oceanic] waters" are taken quite literally, I doubt the Espee's ships had reason to leave U.S. territorial waters.
Still, I thought this particular nicety might just be nice to know. - a. s.
al-in-chgo wrote: Just a gloss, not an answer: didn't Espee also own/control the two overnight steamships that plied between L.A. and San Francisco ? I don't know the actual So.Cal. port from which the NB ships departed, but feel pretty sure the Espee ferry terminal in San Francisco itself would have served well: the boats, while passenger boats, were not particularly large. That doesn't mean the north end of the route was the Espee ferry terminal in S.F., I can't prove that but only surmise. And at the risk of being overly defensive, is terms like "plied [oceanic] waters" are taken quite literally, I doubt the Espee's ships had reason to leave U.S. territorial waters. Still, I thought this particular nicety might just be nice to know. - a. s.
I think you're thinking of the Harvard and Yale of the Los Angeles Steamship Co. (LASSCO) which sailed between San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego from 1908 to WWI, during which they were used as troopships, then resumed after the war. Harvard was wrecked in 1931 off Santa Barbara and Yale was laid up in 1936, then requisitioned during WWII for use as a troop transport for the Aleutian campaign. Matson Line absorbed LASSCO in 1930. After the loss of Harvard the Iroquois was briefly chartered from Clyde Line to replace her.
While this is coastwise shipping the routes likely took the ships beyond the old 3-mile territorial limit. I specified "bluewater" because otherwise the category of North American railroad-owned shipping lines expands considerably to pick up shipping between Vancouver and Victoria, Vancouver and Skagway, the lower St. Lawrence River, and the like, which are protected trades usually barred to foreign competition and thus an entirely different game.
espeefoamer wrote:Matthew Brady,the famous photographer of the Civil War?
Not Matthew Brady.
(As a side note, while Brady is often associated with the Civil War, he actually didn't take many of the shots in the field. Rather, he bankrolled the project and served as a project manager. He employed a lot of talented photographers - Alexander Gardner for example - that actually did the field work of preparing glass negs, setting up shots, taking pictures and developing the negs.)
Hmmm...no one else? How about another shot from the same photographer?
Here ya go:
OK, if you insist, A.J. Russell. But you'll have to pose the next question.
Railway Man wrote: OK, if you insist, A.J. Russell. But you'll have to pose the next question.RWM
Nicely done, RWM! But I think I'll pass the next question to Murph or PassengerFan, who shared in the victory of your last question. Murph, PassnegerFan - you guys got something?
Railway Man wrote: al-in-chgo wrote: Just a gloss, not an answer: didn't Espee also own/control the two overnight steamships that plied between L.A. and San Francisco ? I don't know the actual So.Cal. port from which the NB ships departed, but feel pretty sure the Espee ferry terminal in San Francisco itself would have served well: the boats, while passenger boats, were not particularly large. That doesn't mean the north end of the route was the Espee ferry terminal in S.F., I can't prove that but only surmise. And at the risk of being overly defensive, is terms like "plied [oceanic] waters" are taken quite literally, I doubt the Espee's ships had reason to leave U.S. territorial waters. Still, I thought this particular nicety might just be nice to know. - a. s. I think you're thinking of the Harvard and Yale of the Los Angeles Steamship Co. (LASSCO) which sailed between San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego from 1908 to WWI, during which they were used as troopships, then resumed after the war. Harvard was wrecked in 1931 off Santa Barbara and Yale was laid up in 1936, then requisitioned during WWII for use as a troop transport for the Aleutian campaign. Matson Line absorbed LASSCO in 1930. After the loss of Harvard the Iroquois was briefly chartered from Clyde Line to replace her. [ . . . ]RWM
[ . . . ]
You really know your stuff! The only reference I had for the Harvard and the Yale was from Paul Fussell's witty little book Class. Perhaps under different circumstances I could have used that as a question here! Oh, well.
al-in-chgo wrote:You really know your stuff! The only reference I had for the Harvard and the Yale was from Paul Fussell's witty little book Class. Perhaps under different circumstances I could have used that as a question here! Oh, well.
You don't think I have this stuff memorized! I just remember reading it somewhere and have a pretty good idea which book I saw it in and where it might be in that book. Amazingly, I can usually remember whether it's on a right-hand or left-hand page, top or bottom, and about how deep in the book too. I can usually remember siding lengths, order, running times between them, grades, and can sometimes draw track layouts from memory once I've been someplace.
Just don't ask me to remember my home phone number, my mobile number, my home address, my work address, my wife's birthday, the kid's birthdays, or what time my flight leaves after I've looked at the itinerary for the umpteenth time ... I have to look those up EVERY time.
Railway Man wrote: al-in-chgo wrote: You really know your stuff! The only reference I had for the Harvard and the Yale was from Paul Fussell's witty little book Class. Perhaps under different circumstances I could have used that as a question here! Oh, well. You don't think I have this stuff memorized! I just remember reading it somewhere and have a pretty good idea which book I saw it in and where it might be in that book. Amazingly, I can usually remember whether it's on a right-hand or left-hand page, top or bottom, and about how deep in the book too. I can usually remember siding lengths, order, running times between them, grades, and can sometimes draw track layouts from memory once I've been someplace. Just don't ask me to remember my home phone number, my mobile number, my home address, my work address, my wife's birthday, the kid's birthdays, or what time my flight leaves after I've looked at the itinerary for the umpteenth time ... I have to look those up EVERY time.RWM
al-in-chgo wrote: You really know your stuff! The only reference I had for the Harvard and the Yale was from Paul Fussell's witty little book Class. Perhaps under different circumstances I could have used that as a question here! Oh, well.
As for flight schedules, I suspect in my case the unconscious mind rejects factual data in the face of all that civic-minded cryptofacism they call "airport security." And if nothing else, all the techno-crap most of us lug around is useful for recent stuff like b-days and multiple phone numbers (truth be told, a paper address book works well too).
As for remembering things in books in context, if not actually the precise page, our human memory is far superior to any kindle, any Google yet devised that can filter filters or [try to] search for nuance. MMM stickies often work better than digital "shortcut" files for me also. Many years ago, when the C&O bought its first mainframe, the company released a witty booket entitled "Univac Is Working On Chessie's Railroad." I especially remember that the authors referred to their new electronic wonder as a "marvelous moron." IMHO the adjective and the noun are just as pronounced as they were in the Fifties, if not more so.
And remember all those people who told you when you were young the dire things that would happen if you insisted on keeping "your nose in that book" -- Pffffft! to them all that are still alive, I say! Can you imagine the avalanche of data that would result if one of us were to Google for "Harvard and Yale"? And would "Univac Is Working On Chessie's Railroad" produce anything at all??? - a. s.
But we can remember important things such as our military ID. The last time I was required to use mine was November 12, 1965. US 55752895
In fairness to some males, I remember a lot of birthdays. Since our high-school reunion last summer, I blew away three classmates by sending them e-greetings on their birthdays--the subject didn't come up at the reunion. My wife, daughters, granddaughters, parents, and most in-laws needn't worry, either.
Might be the Asperger Syndrome.
CopCarSS wrote: Railway Man wrote: OK, if you insist, A.J. Russell. But you'll have to pose the next question.RWM Nicely done, RWM! But I think I'll pass the next question to Murph or PassengerFan, who shared in the victory of your last question. Murph, PassnegerFan - you guys got something?
jeaton wrote: Railway Man wrote: al-in-chgo wrote: You really know your stuff! The only reference I had for the Harvard and the Yale was from Paul Fussell's witty little book Class. Perhaps under different circumstances I could have used that as a question here! Oh, well. You don't think I have this stuff memorized! I just remember reading it somewhere and have a pretty good idea which book I saw it in and where it might be in that book. Amazingly, I can usually remember whether it's on a right-hand or left-hand page, top or bottom, and about how deep in the book too. I can usually remember siding lengths, order, running times between them, grades, and can sometimes draw track layouts from memory once I've been someplace. Just don't ask me to remember my home phone number, my mobile number, my home address, my work address, my wife's birthday, the kid's birthdays, or what time my flight leaves after I've looked at the itinerary for the umpteenth time ... I have to look those up EVERY time.RWM Don't be concerned about about remembering birthdates. I have definative proof that men are geneticly incapable of remembering the birth dates. Over 15 years, I have probably prepared taxes for a thousand different families and I have yet to find a husband who could remember the dates for the wife and kids. "Let me think, the new baby was born sometime last month." On the other hand, a wife will remember the birth dates her five kids, the present and previous three husbands, their kids, all the grand parents and throw in the ages of her 6 best friends and their kids.But we can remember important things such as our military ID. The last time I was required to use mine was November 12, 1965. US 55752895
It's not my turn but since no one else is stepping up to the plate here's a question. In the late 30's or possibly the early 40's the Atlantic Coast Line purchased several locomotives from another railroad specifically to head the Southland between Tampa/St. Pete over the Perry Cutoff to Albany, GA. North of Albany the Southland ran over the CofG, L&N and PRR. What was the wheel arrangement of these engines and what road did the ACL buy them from?
Mark
[looks like the coast is clear] . . . Okay, here's one that may be easy to do . . . but perhaps not from memory.
I want to know the exact number of years, months and days the Penn Central was in existence up to and including the date the corp. filed for bankruptcy. Here are the rules, and the first one is just a reminder.
-- No looking up or referencing it -- that's cheating, as well as making the answer too darn easy.
-- I want the exact number of years, months, and days, phrased in that order; not total days, not total months; not Julian days; and a partial day is a day, minutes don't matter.
--No Jesuitry (casuistry): You won't win by carving out eccentric different dates because the corp. hadn't yet registered in Canada, or Nevada, or because it was somewhere slightly misspelled along the lines of "Penn-Central." If the train-operating entity at some point had a slightly different name attached to it, or if initial idiosyncracies had to be standardized, that is a meaningless distinction. Just like "Vietnam" was "Viet-Nam" and "Viet Nam," Penn Central is Penn Central and common sense shall prevail. The official name was something along the lines of "Penn Central Transportation Company," to distinguish it from the holding company; but it doesn't matter because all we're interested in is the RR-running company commonly called Penn Central.
--This is not a trick question. Day of filing for bankruptcy is the last day and it counts. Anything beyond that doesn't. We're most if not all of us aware that the company soldiered on longer under federal protection or receivership but that is beyond the scope of this question.
--The first day of operation, whether a full day or not, counts as a day.
--The day that the company filed for bankruptcy protection is the last day, no matter when in the day or at which courthouse it was filed and as I said counts as a full day.
-- There are no such things as "!2:00 a.m." or "12:00 p.m." The minute after 11:59 a.m. is called "12:00 Noon." The minute after 11:59 p.m. is called "12.00 Midnight."
-- Here's the kicker: like The Price Is Right game show on CBS, if you go over, even by one day, you are incorrect. Closest firstest person up to or including the last day will win.
Piece o'cake -- or is it? -- a. s.
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