Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
A stab at part 2: Illinois Central Railroad, grain from Chicago or thereabouts, to New Orleans, late 60's/early70's?
(The little man in my head thinks it's an eastern railroad, like Erie, sometime way before WW II. Since he can't type, I went with the guess above.)
Murph, since you're the only one willing to play along so far ...
Train #1 you need to go waaaaaay back. But you're thinking in the correct path.
Train #2 think of a commodity that LITERALLY flooded a market. Kind of a famous accident. When you have that Jay ought to be able to reach back into his way-back machine and tell you the railroad and the Origin-Destination.
If you think about it, there's nothing novel about unit trains. They simply require a shipper with a lot of a single commodity moving over and over between the same places. Those kinds of shippers weren't real common before the late 1800s, and about the time they became common the ICC got involved and forbade the practice. So what commodities moved in trainload volumes prior to the ICC? Maybe coal, maybe iron ore, maybe oil, but not grain. An really big elevator might have filled one trainload once a year but not over and over, and what shipper could have consumed it?
RWM
Murphy named commodity #1, Krazykat commodity #2. Good job.
Railway Man wrote:A unit train by definition is a trainload of a single commodity moving for a single shipper on a single waybill. Usually but not always the entire train is loaded at a single location and entirely unloaded at a single location, the notable exception being grain and sometimes coal, too.2-part question:Name the commodity, origin and destination (approximate will do), two competing railroads, and timeframe of the first regularly operated, commercial unit trains in the U.S., which ceased because something lower-cost was built to take its place.Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place. (Is this a Typo? something began because something took it's place???)Hint to steer you in the right direction -- income from one of these commodities built a university of gothic proportions, and the other commodity once flooded a market. RWM
A unit train by definition is a trainload of a single commodity moving for a single shipper on a single waybill. Usually but not always the entire train is loaded at a single location and entirely unloaded at a single location, the notable exception being grain and sometimes coal, too.
2-part question:
Name the commodity, origin and destination (approximate will do), two competing railroads, and timeframe of the first regularly operated, commercial unit trains in the U.S., which ceased because something lower-cost was built to take its place.
Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place. (Is this a Typo? something began because something took it's place???)
Hint to steer you in the right direction -- income from one of these commodities built a university of gothic proportions, and the other commodity once flooded a market.
KingConrail76 wrote: Railway Man wrote:A unit train by definition is a trainload of a single commodity moving for a single shipper on a single waybill. Usually but not always the entire train is loaded at a single location and entirely unloaded at a single location, the notable exception being grain and sometimes coal, too.2-part question:Name the commodity, origin and destination (approximate will do), two competing railroads, and timeframe of the first regularly operated, commercial unit trains in the U.S., which ceased because something lower-cost was built to take its place.Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place. (Is this a Typo? something began because something took it's place???)Hint to steer you in the right direction -- income from one of these commodities built a university of gothic proportions, and the other commodity once flooded a market. RWM
Not a typo. Something lower cost was built to supersede the railroad, because the railroad cost, using single-car rates, was higher than the competing system. The railroad initiated the unit train to lower its costs beneath the competitor and keep the competitor out of the trade.
That is a very common occurance in transportation and business. A business model exists at cost X. A competitor deduces he can build a delivery system at cost X minus 1. The original business sees the competitor taking action, and devises something that costs X minus 2. In this case the railroad saw the competitor chewing into its traffic and convinced the ICC to allow it to offer unit-train rates in order to lower its costs below the competitor.
I feel silly now...I re-read that 6 or more times and didn't see the meaning until after you replied.
But since we're taking stabs at portions of the question, would #2 be the Juice Train (Orange Juice) from Tampa, Fla. to Kearney, Nj. on SCL/SAL/ACL/RF&P/PC (all now part of CSX) on June 7, 1971?
KingConrail76 wrote: I feel silly now...I re-read that 6 or more times and didn't see the meaning until after you replied.But since we're taking stabs at portions of the question, would #2 be the Juice Train (Orange Juice) from Tampa, Fla. to Kearney, Nj. on SCL/SAL/ACL/RF&P/PC (all now part of CSX) on June 7, 1971?
I could have written it more clearly!
No, #2 is molasses. But thanks for reminding me when the juice train began; I had neglected to embed in my mind that it was that long ago. The "modern era" of unit trains began in 1958 with a unit coal train operated by B&O, but there were a few that operated under ICC approval significantly earlier (which is what I'm hoping someone knows about but now I'm thinking it's too obscure a question.)
Remember the video game astroids? I feel like all this info is coming my way, and I can't seem to handle it all at once.
I *think* I recall reading about unit trains of oil tubs on flat cars. I'm picturing them moving from someplace like Titusville, PA to Philedelphia, down along a river called something like the Schulkill river? The railroads were Erie and Lehigh Valley?
Of course, I could be waaayyyy off!
wyomingrailfan wrote:The molasses in Boston had another incident. A tank(huge!!!) blew up killing many people.But who has the next question???
I think Murph and Krazykat have to duke it out...
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Railway Man wrote: KCSfan wrote:BINGO. You got both the railroads and the dates correct RWM so it's your turn to pose a question.MarkOh heck. That's hard. Umm, let's see. Something hardly anyone knows but could deduce if they thought about it. OK, here goes.A unit train by definition is a trainload of a single commodity moving for a single shipper on a single waybill. Usually but not always the entire train is loaded at a single location and entirely unloaded at a single location, the notable exception being grain and sometimes coal, too.2-part question:Name the commodity, origin and destination (approximate will do), two competing railroads, and timeframe of the first regularly operated, commercial unit trains in the U.S., which ceased because something lower-cost was built to take its place.Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place.Hint to steer you in the right direction -- income from one of these commodities built a university of gothic proportions, and the other commodity once flooded a market. RWM
KCSfan wrote:BINGO. You got both the railroads and the dates correct RWM so it's your turn to pose a question.Mark
BINGO. You got both the railroads and the dates correct RWM so it's your turn to pose a question.
Mark
Oh heck. That's hard. Umm, let's see. Something hardly anyone knows but could deduce if they thought about it. OK, here goes.
Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place.
I think 24 hours is as far as these should go -- either an answer, or go on to the next one. Murphy Siding answered with the commodity for the first train and Krazykat with the commodity for the second, so the honors go to them for posing the next question.
There were some other parts to the questions, and since those weren't ever pinned down (and probably won't be now) I'll fill them in.
The first regularly operated unit trains in the U.S. carried crude oil, as Murph answered, but not in WWII -- in the 1870s! They were operated for Western Pennsylvania oil controlled by John D. Rockefeller by the Erie and the Philadelphia & Reading, and ran to refineries in New York City and Philadelphia, respectively, the P&R connecting to the world's first successful long-distance pipeline, the Tidewater completed in May 1879. Additional pipelines constructed by Standard Oil eliminated these unit trains. The "university of gothic proportions" was the University of Chicago, construction of which was largely paid for by Rockefeller.
Krazykat recalled the molasses storage tank failure in Boston in 1919, the commodity hauled by the first-post ICC unit train in the U.S., which started in mid-January 1940 by the Illinois Central to haul blackstrap molasses from New Orleans to Peoria, Illinois.
Background to this little-known but decisive event:
Section 2 of the ICC Act of 1887 empowered the ICC to prohibit volume discounts, which it did in one of its first decisions that year. A long line of decisions held that quantity, multiple-car, or trainload rates were unlawful under Section 2. While this didn't prohibit anyone from running a trainload of a single commodity for a single shipper between a single origin and single destination, in practice since there was no financial advantage to railroad or shipper it did not often occur. During WWI USRA operation an effort was made where practical to assemble solid-block trains but that was done under severe stress for economy of locomotives and crews, not for the benefit of shippers or for economy.
As railways began to experience sharp competion from inland waterways and trucking, and a substantial amount of the nation's railway entered bankruptcy in the Depression, the ICC began to consider the proposition that volume rates were not illegal under Section 2 if they were enacted solely to meet modal competition. The ICC recognized that without the ability to reduce rates the railroads would be squeezed between trucks on the service side and waterborne and pipeline on the cost side, which it concluded would cause sufficient loss of revenue to ultimately harm the public interest. The ICC tested this theory gingerly, granting to the Illinois Central in December 1939, following two months of consideration (they weren't always glacial!) the authority to offer volume discounts on 40-car blocks of blackstrap molasses moving from New Orleans to Peoria, Illinois, in order to meet barge competition. (Blackstrap molasses is a common animal feed additive). The first train moved in January 1940, giving Commercial Solvents Corp. a reduction in rate from 19 cents per hundredweight to 17 cents per hundredweight. Arguing against the railroads were the pipeline and barge companies.
Authority for the first unit train for coal was the Frisco, between coal mines in southwestern Missouri and St. Louis, in 1947. Not until 1958 did the ICC open the door to a rapid expansion of unit train rates, in order to allow railroads to compete with power-by-wire from mine-mouth powerplants, and cheap resid oil from Venezuela hauled by ship to waterfront powerplants. The principal beneficiaries were B&O, Erie, NYC, and PRR -- the western railroads didn't have much coal business at the time, didn't have much competition for its haulage, and instituted units trains slowly and only where it was necessary to attract new business. Similarly the Pocohontas Roads didn't want unit trains except in certain instances as it reduced their revenue.
Amazingly Time Magazine ran on article on the IC molasses trains (Time still thought it was in the journalism business back then instead of the snarky punditocracy business as it is now, but I digress). Link here:
www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,763399,00.html?promoid=googlep
In the mean time, a little Unit Train Trivia...
In 1826, the Granite Railway first Commercially used Unit Trains of 3 cars, Horsedrawn, to move granite from a quarry to the water front for transloading to ship.
Granite Railway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for pictures and other fun facts.
KingConrail76 wrote: In the mean time, a little Unit Train Trivia...In 1826, the Granite Railway first Commercially used Unit Trains of 3 cars, Horsedrawn, to move granite from a quarry to the water front for transloading to ship.Granite Railway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for pictures and other fun facts.
I'll offer up a simple one:
In 1962, which railroad hauled the most meat and packing plant products in Iowa?
Murphy Siding wrote: I'll offer up a simple one: In 1962, which railroad hauled the most meat and packing plant products in Iowa?
The Illinois Central.
KCSfan wrote: Murphy Siding wrote: I'll offer up a simple one: In 1962, which railroad hauled the most meat and packing plant products in Iowa?The Illinois Central.Mark
Here's another IC question that goes back to the post WW2 period. Their was only one fully streamlined steam locomotive that ever regularly operated on Illinois Central rails. What was the wheel arrangement of this engine, what train did it head and what was its route?
KCSfan wrote: Here's another IC question that goes back to the post WW2 period. Their was only one fully streamlined steam locomotive that ever regularly operated on Illinois Central rails. What was the wheel arrangement of this engine, what train did it head and what was its route?Mark
Sounds like the ol' Green Diamond streamliner set- the train was an articulated consist of one locomotive and 5 cars- the locomotive (IC #121) was actually articulated with the train too, so it had one full powered truck under the front of the unit, and a non-powered articulated truck that it shared with the baggage car. So I guess this means it had a B+B/1+1 arrangement. The train ran between Chicago and St. Louis. The articulated trainset ran from 1936-47 before it was replaced by a conventional E-unit powered consist- the consist then was relegated to service in Mississippi on the MissLou before being scrapped in 1950.
Nordique, I think he's looking for a steam engine, and I don't think it was an IC steam engine either. I suspect it's a locomotive that ran on IC trackage rights or a joint IC-Road XYZ trains, and passenger trains just aren't my strong suit, so I'd have to paw around in the library.
Nordique, like you I shouldn't be posting questions after my bedtime or when I've had more than two toddys.
Everybody please note that my question should read the early 1940's not post WW2.
It's been three days and only one attempt to answer this question. I didn't think it would be all that hard but here's a clue that may help you. The train's route over the IC was exactly 54.5 miles one way.
rrnut282 wrote:Was it a NYC train?
Yes! Your're getting warm.
rrnut282 wrote:Was it the James Whitcomb Riley running on the P&E that joins the IC near Kankakee?
Yes, the train was the James Whitcomb Riley. Can you answer the parts of the question about the train's engine and route? Incidentally the Riley ran on the Big Four not the P&E.
This one? http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s4917o.jpg Info I've found, though, says that there were 2 of these that ran the route, 4917 and 4915. Both of them came from the Mercury.
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