Also on this topic when i worked if a person was furloughed and on the guarentee the carrier would mark you up as a messenger checker. To any current rail workers are all the guarentee people gone now? We would just use a company "van" I E Suburban and pick up crews. Also off topic when i worked RR unemployment was 25$ per day and it took years and years to get that bumped up. So the idea the Unions or Carriers will ever do anything about this is a dream.
sanvtoman wrote: Also on this topic when i worked if a person was furloughed and on the guarentee the carrier would mark you up as a messenger checker. To any current rail workers are all the guarentee people gone now? We would just use a company "van" I E Suburban and pick up crews. Also off topic when i worked RR unemployment was 25$ per day and it took years and years to get that bumped up. So the idea the Unions or Carriers will ever do anything about this is a dream.
That isn't such a bad idea--but it has been quite a while since we've had anyone furloughed, and there will come a time when the furloughed people go back to work--then what? If I were a contract messenger company I wouldn't appreciate a month-to-month contract in which you could be bumped by a conductor on the loose.
We do have something slightly similar--occasionally our one remaining messenger-clerk gets an assist from an employee who's been off due to an injury. If he's progressed enough in his recovery to handle such light duties as delivering water or supplies, and so on, they'll put him back to work at his own pay rate--anything to get him off the sickness/injury program.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Ulrich wrote:I'm not arguing...in fact I'm going to AGREE with you and call it a night. You've convinced me that you guys (unions/carriers/contractors) can't fix this problem. Have a nice evening.
The problem can be fixed, but it won't. You'll just get the same message:
"Well, sure, we'd like to do that, but our profits this year are just not as high as we expected them to be...."
That same excuse, er, statement is used whenever anything safety-related comes up.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
while doing a search for another subject ref. Renzenberger i found this thread, its very interesting...i must admit some of the things said bothered me a bit. i am a driver, a damn good one, i have never been to jail, im not on work release, i have never been in a accident with my van or my pov, ever ( knock on wood), im not an idiot, drunk or a drug addict and i could tell you some doozies about some of the railroaders ive picked up but the majority of them are damn good people. they are hard working, easy going, generous, funny people and i cant think of another group of guys i would rather work around. i say generous not because i beg money off the crews but generous in spirit. i could also say those things about most of the drivers i know. there are good and bad employees on every job.
I think most of these complaints should be aimed at the drivers employer and not the drivers.
here are some facts about renzenberger
training consisted of sitting in a room watching some short videos on fouling the track, it was really about cars getting hit by trains not the specifics of driving a pick up van near the tracks or in a yard. also some videos on safe driving, using the msg system,etc total 8hrs
road training consisted of going on the road with another driver and seeing some of the pick up locations, driving the van a little, riding along on some pick ups.total 16hrs
thats it, but not sure what else could be done, maybe a defensive driving course but they are not going to pay for that.
my very first day on the job solo i was in the yard driving the dodgers around,i think every driver should do it, they were great as far as me being new, im sure they see that a lot.
as you know the pay is a joke, while in training its minimum wage, yes, minimum wage.
starting is 0.16 cents a mile and i think 6.25 hr on any wait time and yard shifts
maximum driver pay is 0.18 or 0.19 cents a mile and 7.50 hr wait time.
lead drivers get 250.00 extra dollars a month, thats it. it doesnt come close to compensating them for what they do.
we are 10 hrs drive time/ 15 hrs on duty time a day max, i dont care who you are you cant spend 15 hrs in a van and still stay sharp.
if they send you somewhere you are not familiar with you are on your own to find it, my drivers book consists of some hand drawn maps of some of the pick up points but you need to get close for the maps to even start to help.
the safety bonus program is a joke, i wont even get into that..lol.
i could go on and on, why not get a diff job?, well..i like the job itself, not the pay or the way the company operates.
ill see ya out there
Bishop
Interesting topic, and obviously very emotional one to the crew members. Best of luck to you in getting it fixed.
I am not a railroader, nor employed in one of the taxi services, so I will keep my limited opinions to myself. However, Ulrich, I think you have some really solid points. I too make my living off of performance and hate it when I am the "low bidder". BTW, do you need any graphics for your trucks? If so, contact me off line, you will get the best quality at a fair price. References obviously included from some of the largest transportation companies in the US.
I had one experience with a crew and taxi. A couple of years ago I had my scanner on and heard the frustration of a crew trying to instruct a taxi where to pick them up. It was a very isolated location (a MOW siding) with no road access. After 10 minutes of listening, my 11 year old son and I went out and got the crew. We told them of overhearing and instructed the crew where to tell the taxi to meet us (local convienence store).
When the crew saw my 11 year old, they went nuts and invited us into the locomotive and gave us (mainly him) the tour, plus a bottle of water, and a couple of railroad things. As we were walking to my Jeep, another car pulled up and the crew told us to be cool...they were certain it was a local railroad manager coming to help. Nope...it was another railfan, that drove over 10 miles to lend a helping hand on a cold winter night.
It was only 1/2 mile to the C store and the van met us there. It was a great night for my son as he not only got a tour of a locomotive but also got to "rescue the Grand Truck".
The next morning I drove to the siding to take a quick picture of the MOW train. The crew recognized me and showed their appreciation by couple of quick blasts on the horn.
Now, looking back and reading this thread...it was a pretty tough situation for the crew and the cab. The crew couldnt give local directions, as they were from Battle Creek, over 100 miles away and the taxi had NO IDEA where this isolated siding was.
In a perfect world, the taxis would have GPS units, great suspension systems, and well paid drivers, plus perhaps a cooler with water or soft drinks. The odds of that occuring? Probably not too good.
Be safe.
ed
Harry_Runyon wrote: Ulrich wrote:That's right AL...you would think that the rails who claim the sky is falling like Chicken Little on this SAFETY issue would at least have the numbers handy to support their onerous (and frankly dubious & overstated) claim. Hopefully when their reps sit down with their counterparts in management they'll have those numbers because without em they look like d*** FOOLS. DOH!!!!! OK now...lets review these numbers again: Big Al and you have how many years combined in railroading?
Ulrich wrote:That's right AL...you would think that the rails who claim the sky is falling like Chicken Little on this SAFETY issue would at least have the numbers handy to support their onerous (and frankly dubious & overstated) claim. Hopefully when their reps sit down with their counterparts in management they'll have those numbers because without em they look like d*** FOOLS. DOH!!!!!
OK now...lets review these numbers again: Big Al and you have how many years combined in railroading?
While I usually agree with you, I don't see how that's relative to the discussion, Harry. The business principles employed in running a railroad are not unique.
The complaints are coming from TWO railroaders here. TWO. And now a third person familiar with shuttles takes issue with their complaints. Uh-huh.
A broad statement was made... and someone requested documentation. To answer with "you cannot understand because you don't work for a railroad" leaves a lot to be desired. Reminds me of the illogical fallacy: "All sick people take pills. Therefore, if they stop taking pills, they won't be sick."
Anyway, the issue here apparently is low pay of the van drivers. It may be a job, but it is not a "career" -- like railroading is a career.
Really, what special skills do van drivers need (beyond a CDL) that makes them invaluable to their employer -- or is it the type of job where you can plug just about anybody in and out as needed? Supply and demand, right? There's nothing special about driving. Millions of Americans do it every day. Like, it's not the kind of job where a guy can get paid $75,000 a year and the employer still makes a tidy profit.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding wrote: Has this always been a problem, or something that has changed over time?
No one has yet been forthcoming with that detail.
Dan
Its this new brand of managers that only can look at the bottom line. And the railroads are hiring managers that never threw a swtich and never had to ride a van in their lives.
And there may be only 3 RRers on here - but every single trip I take with dozens upon dozens of RRers is not complete until you get a deadheading horror story.
CShaveRR wrote:It's a phenomenon of the last twenty years or so, Murph. Before that the railroad's own employees (clerks, messengers, trainmasters, whatever) would handle the ferrying of crews.
IIRC, it was a private company (and possibly one or more former employees), as opposed to one of the larger crew-transport companies. On my regular job, I'd rarely need to utilize these people. But I've heard tales...
We do have a rule that prohibits employees from being in one of the transport vehicles when a backup move is being made. This is probably one of those rules that was written in blood.
Now I will admit - we do have some really good drivers - the ones that are no way paid enough. They know where they are going (and several ways there), are friendly, and all around good guys.
Unfortunately, not all drivers are like that.
zugmann wrote: You don't want to believe us? that's fine - we'll just return to the normal foamer topics of paint and horns.
You don't want to believe us? that's fine - we'll just return to the normal foamer topics of paint and horns.
and insults, right?
No one said they don't believe you. They simply asked for some data or documentation regarding a claim made here in this discussion. That's a legitimate request. The other guy says he's a union official who's been fighting for change on this for years. He'd likely be the guy who'd have some sort of stats, yes?
If this place turns into an "Us vs. Them" war, it will be because of "foamer" comments like yours.
How'd you like it if someone said "Or we'll just return to the normal topics of railroaders complaining about how tough their jobs are."?
You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics.
zugmann wrote: You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics. That is the difference between us and them I guess. As csxengineer said, it is different from outside the fence.
You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics. That is the difference between us and them I guess. As csxengineer said, it is different from outside the fence.
Thanks for removing the smarmy line you had originally in this post. I think none of us wants to start a war over this.
As someone from "outside the fence" I guess it amazes me that management is deaf to these safety complaints and that the union is totally impotent in forcing any changes, that's all.
Sorry, I got bumped off a job... so I'm a little testy today. I really shouldn't post when I get mad. Heck I still consider myself a railfan. I craned my head when we passed some restored Eunits the othr day...
As faar as safety...
I wouldn't be surprised if the railroads become non-union in the next 10-20 years. Of course, we'll have 1-man crews with roving utilities. It's going to happen.... just a question of when the locomotives are set up for it.
zugmann wrote: Sorry, I got bumped off a job... so I'm a little testy today. I really shouldn't post when I get mad. Heck I still consider myself a railfan. I craned my head when we passed some restored Eunits the othr day... As faar as safety... Can we fix it? I don't think so in the near future. Around here, the unions are pretty much run by old-timers taht can hold daylight yard jobs. Us younger pups are stuck working extra or on unassigned pools, and can't get to union meetings to set the agendas. So in return we become bitter at our own unions (which we are) and will not take part in them. I wouldn't be surprised if the railroads become non-union in the next 10-20 years. Of course, we'll have 1-man crews with roving utilities. It's going to happen.... just a question of when the locomotives are set up for it.
zugmann wrote:And no, the us vs. them is because of railfans that have ZERO experience in the industry thinking they know more than we do. Sorry, I don't think it works that way. I'm sure as heck not going to know more about trucking than Ulrich... so is it fair to assume I may know a little more about the physical rail ops (maybe not the financial means) than he does?
And no, the us vs. them is because of railfans that have ZERO experience in the industry thinking they know more than we do. Sorry, I don't think it works that way. I'm sure as heck not going to know more about trucking than Ulrich... so is it fair to assume I may know a little more about the physical rail ops (maybe not the financial means) than he does?
So one guy who suddenly surfaced here after four years of membership pulled your chain. No need to call out the militia. And no need to indict all railfans, either.
I've been in some pretty heated discussions here. I've found that some people don't want to hear logic. Some want to make up facts to support their opinion. Others feed off blind support from their clique. And when someone finally calls them on their "game", they retreat -- resorting to calling you a troll and worse.
I hear ya on your concerns for the future. I remember hearing stories about the battle (my grandpa was a retired Cicero policeman who worked for the IC -- a "railroad bull") when they started bring in diesel locomotives. Two man-crews with MU locos were replacing steam crews on double- and triple-headers. That almost caused riots in the yard.
This is true. When I finally did make it to a meeting, the only other young guys in attendance were furloughed. Seemed like no one wanted to talk about anything but their penalty claims and doing things they were told to do that they thought were not in the contract. 30 ticked off people trying to talk over each other at once. Everyone there talked about how the local chairman sucked and should be replaced. Seems like the youger ones at the meeting cared nothing about wanting to improve anything but their pay check. Anything within reason can be fixed, but like anything else it takes time and unions don't perform miracles.
sanvtoman wrote: Anyway on this topic of underqualified drivers next time you see a van from an old folks home take a look at who is driving. I wouldnt let the family dog go with these people more less a loved one.
zugmann wrote: Its this new brand of managers that only can look at the bottom line. And the railroads are hiring managers that never threw a swtich and never had to ride a van in their lives. And there may be only 3 RRers on here - but every single trip I take with dozens upon dozens of RRers is not complete until you get a deadheading horror story.
In general you may well be right about the Yuppie generation of "hands-off" managers, but an isolated management not knowing (or not caring) about small, cheap amenities to improve comfort and safety is not brand new.
Both THE MEN WHO LOVED TRAINS and MAIN LINES talk about such issues that go way back, sometimes before the implementation of diesel motive power. N&W for generations refused to put a potty in the head end of the loco. Apparently if a strong need for "number two" arose, the engineer or fireman was expected to do his business in a bag, like a poodle.
And a small but still significant part of the "wreck of the Penn Central" lay in the fact that ex-Pennsy's loco's did not have armrests, but the ex-NYCentral's did. It provoked great labor unrest when the motive power started getting mixed after the merger and the ex-Central's employees felt the loss of a valuable comfort item.
We're not talking wall-to-wall carpet and video games, but sanitation and uniform, and as-comfortable-as-possible working quarters, are everyone's right. N&W and later NS have generated Dollars of bad will and reputational damage by saving comparative dimes on equipping the cab. And a comfortable worker is a safer worker.
Any of the execs who had to go without an armchair in THEIR offices would be hollering bloody murder!
Well, safety is nice... but bottom line this is a job and we do want paid. It is hard to feed the family on safety measures. In my area, we have a lot of pre-85 UTU guys. These guys have attachments, slush funds, the works. So we, the 80%ers, with none of that get tired of listening to these old guys debate which contractor they should hire for their million dollar homes, or how they should really sell off that Infiniti as they barely drive it. All the while we look at our checks and go, WTF??? The days of the $100,000 dollar RRer are over.
But the newest guys have basically given up on the unions. It is sad... and as a pro-labor guy it pains me. Sure someone will ask - "did you go to the union meeting?" I can answer - nope. I was either working or on rest. And if you think I am going to give up my few hours of rest to drive an hour to a union meeting - you're nuts.
PS>> I'm also proud to be from the state that mandated toilets in road engines! (PA)
Rail-Roadwarrior wrote:This is true. When I finally did make it to a meeting, the only other young guys in attendance were furloughed. Seemed like no one wanted to talk about anything but their penalty claims and doing things they were told to do that they thought were not in the contract. 30 ticked off people trying to talk over each other at once. Everyone there talked about how the local chairman sucked and should be replaced. Seems like the youger ones at the meeting cared nothing about wanting to improve anything but their pay check. Anything within reason can be fixed, but like anything else it takes time and unions don't perform miracles.
As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it.
Rail-Roadwarrior wrote: As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it.
As the Zuggman will attest, I get frustrated at this kind of talk. As a union officer, I aim to serve as best I can. I spend hours of my own time making sure that issues are addressed, the checks are in the mail, and information the members want is provided. I really do not like confrontation, it serves no purpose other than to alienate others. I spend a lot of time teaching younger men about the CNW schedule, and that we cannot afford to let the carrier erode it any further than it already has.
The tide is turning in some locations today. No more can the politics of seniority dictate who can govern, and who cannot. One very large district has already seen the younger members out-number them, forcing the focus to change. No longer can the agreements we have seen since the merger be passed that will further gut the pay of new hires or worse. This is the exception, not the rule yet. (National elimination of the two tiered new hire rates has to be the biggest insult, and to be honest, needs to be the first to go away. And I would not be surprised if it was traded for some pre-85 items since pre-85 is becoming the minority.)
CShaveRR wrote: We do have a rule that prohibits employees from being in one of the transport vehicles when a backup move is being made. This is probably one of those rules that was written in blood.
I heard a van backed into a pole rather forcefully, at least enough that an occupant claimed an injury. Having people in the van other than the driver was supposedly a contributing cause.
With some of our drivers when you get out you want to give them plenty of space. With one I would get behind some sturdy immovable object whenever possible. I don't know what will happen when one backs over a passenger.
Our drivers before backing up are supposed to get out and walk around the van to make sure the area behind the van is clear. That's because a van backed into a railroader.
Jeff
RRKen wrote: Rail-Roadwarrior wrote: As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it. As the Zuggman will attest, I get frustrated at this kind of talk. As a union officer, I aim to serve as best I can. I spend hours of my own time making sure that issues are addressed, the checks are in the mail, and information the members want is provided. I really do not like confrontation, it serves no purpose other than to alienate others. I spend a lot of time teaching younger men about the CNW schedule, and that we cannot afford to let the carrier erode it any further than it already has. The tide is turning in some locations today. No more can the politics of seniority dictate who can govern, and who cannot. One very large district has already seen the younger members out-number them, forcing the focus to change. No longer can the agreements we have seen since the merger be passed that will further gut the pay of new hires or worse. This is the exception, not the rule yet. (National elimination of the two tiered new hire rates has to be the biggest insult, and to be honest, needs to be the first to go away. And I would not be surprised if it was traded for some pre-85 items since pre-85 is becoming the minority.)
Ken, if we had more guys like you things would be different. We had officers who just never showed a whole lot of interest. They were always marked off on union business but never seemed to get any claims paid or any other issues taken care of. And getting a phone call returned could take a while. I understand that being a local chairman or an officer can be stressfull with the constant phone calls and complaints on top of working your job, I never wanted any part of it. Some are better suited than others, more power to you for being able to hack it.
I couldn't agree more!!!
I too, am a post '85er, and a union officer. I can't discribe how fustraiting it is to see 20-40% voting results. Alot of railroads won't get off their butts to save their butts! You can make things change, it's just not easy, nor is it going to happen overnight. It's alot of dedication, time and most of tenacity!
Do not let the minority rule the majority, get involved! Don't you young guy's sit around the crew room bitching about nothing changing and not try to change it. I used to hate to sit in a crew room and listen to that crap, because when the time came to actually do something, or I needed something, everybody was way to busy.
Do you know all of the agreements yuo work under, has your representative given you copies of the agreement books. You would be surprised, and so would these new managers, as to what these books hold. Example, Our books had an agreements specifying the what the seats had to look like on the lead unit, so when UP told us we had to take a train with some piece of crap Mexican unit with tore up seats on the lead we pulled out the agreement books and they let us switch it out. Management and most of the guy's around here didn't know that, they didn't read the agreements!
I should add, don't abuse it either. It goes both ways!
Us young guys? Simple. We are working the extra board or pool jobs. We have no clue when we will have time off. And at the rate we have been working - we sure as heck ain't giving up the rare evening off to go to a union meeting. We either want to sleep or spend time with our families. I went through my calendar the other week... there was only one day where I could have went to a union meeting. But I just got back from a really long day and wanted to go home, get something to eat and go to bed. Selfish? You bet. Of course I don't leave close to work or the union meetings - I am about an hour away.
Most of the people that hire out near me just try to stay invisible. WE had a younger conductor who was the trainman's representative for the BLET. Really nice guy, worked for us - too bad he ran off to go join the dark side.
So it is not going to end anytime soon. The old guys with the best jobs and those in the yard will continue to rule. The rest of us have just accepted it. We'll take the engine with torn seats... sure beats having to answer for a whole bunch of crap and gets us out of the yard faster.
I'm sure it would be different if we had dedicated people like RRken or Zapp as our union reps... but here, forget it. We just gave up. There's only so much you can care about.
PS>> I also think there is a generational shift in how we see ourselves. I don't see myself as a railroader. I just work for a railroad. I do not see a train from my employer as "my" or "our" train. I just see it as a train from my employer. I just want to do my work, go home and get my paystub. Forget the pride - I feel NONE.
zug.
zapp wrote:I couldn't agree more!!!I too, am a post '85er, and a union officer. I can't discribe how fustraiting it is to see 20-40% voting results. Alot of railroads won't get off their butts to save their butts! You can make things change, it's just not easy, nor is it going to happen overnight. It's alot of dedication, time and most of tenacity!Do not let the minority rule the majority, get involved! Don't you young guy's sit around the crew room bitching about nothing changing and not try to change it. I used to hate to sit in a crew room and listen to that crap, because when the time came to actually do something, or I needed something, everybody was way to busy.Do you know all of the agreements yuo work under, has your representative given you copies of the agreement books. You would be surprised, and so would these new managers, as to what these books hold. Example, Our books had an agreements specifying the what the seats had to look like on the lead unit, so when UP told us we had to take a train with some piece of crap Mexican unit with tore up seats on the lead we pulled out the agreement books and they let us switch it out. Management and most of the guy's around here didn't know that, they didn't read the agreements!I should add, don't abuse it either. It goes both ways!
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.