OT: I-35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis

[daveklepper]

An engineer friend, wishes to be anonymouse, suggested that the pile drive set up oscillations in the bridge structure, which were at the rsonant frequency of many of the car-weight plus rubber tire sprint vehicles on the bridge, and the cars began oscillation with the magnetude increasing. 

[tree68]

This incident, occuring so close to the Stone Arch (Jim Hill) bridge, brought back thought of a column in the Chicago Tribune many years back. They had a columnist who must've been a fan (the name escapes me...Graham something?)-he often wrote of trains & railroads; a little too often and too accurately to have been a "civilian". One of the columns I clipped and saved for many years was about the Stone Arch bridge and how all the things we build today are built to be good for 20 years and we think that's good enough, but that someone built something to last for the ages and it still was doing just that. Kind of a generic lament that "we don't build 'em like that anymore" but a good one. I wonder if the I-35 bridge was one of the "good enough" structures he had in mind when he was there?

True enough.  I just did a 'pilgrimage' to Starrucca Viaduct.  Built  in 1853 and still in use...

[Icemanmike]

A few winters ago we had a part of the Hoan bridge "sag" or
realisticly a beam cracked and almost gave way durring morning rush
hour. People called the police when they noticed a "dip" in the road.
That section of the bridge was imploded (cool to see first hand) and
re-built. I never even questioned that bridge before hand I worry more
anout the little "lift" bridges that cross the Milwaukee river
downtown. My 16,000lb truck empty Im ok........when theres 9 skids
loaded and then I have to cross a bridge I have watched them woking on
for the last few years.....scare the crap out of me EACH DAY!

This is a sad day in transportation and enginering history. I only pray that we learn from our mistakes.

My thoughts and prayers go to those who have to burden this event. 

[Kevin C. Smith]

This incident, occuring so close to the Stone Arch (Jim Hill) bridge, brought back thought of a column in the Chicago Tribune many years back. They had a columnist who must've been a fan (the name escapes me...Graham something?)-he often wrote of trains & railroads; a little too often and too accurately to have been a "civilian". One of the columns I clipped and saved for many years was about the Stone Arch bridge and how all the things we build today are built to be good for 20 years and we think that's good enough, but that someone built something to last for the ages and it still was doing just that. Kind of a generic lament that "we don't build 'em like that anymore" but a good one. I wonder if the I-35 bridge was one of the "good enough" structures he had in mind when he was there?

[Anonymous]

Thank You, Stein. I have been through your fair town on the way from Oslo to Stockholm, if that is the route it takes.

[Anonymous]

Thank You, SV.  I totally missed it amongst the subtle blast of RED on the front page which I guess is meant to get attention. Maybe I should have tried it with the polaroids before commenting.

 

And I do agree with your comments.

[steinjr]

Link please. 

Yes, I'm a subscriber but am unfamiliar with this newswire and do not find it referenced on the front page.  Tnx.

Ain't it the pits what we have to go through just to read what they earned money for us to read????

On the TRAINS.COM website, in the center column is a link about "Where to find the Trains News Wire".

 Or you can do it the simple way instead of taking the scenic route.

  At the bottom of every page on this website there are some blue ribbons with links. Look at the row that says "Magazines". Click on "Trains".

 The Trains Magazine News Wire is on the middle of the page that comes up.

 Stein

 

[wctransfer]

I live in the Twin Cities, and went down there today to see for my own eyes. The camera's really dont do justice. Ive had two or three people who would have taken that bridge yesterday, but decided not too. A friend of mines dad left work early because he didnt have a good feeling about something, and my mom decided not to take the bridge (at around 10 minutes before it happened) because of the construction and rush hour.

Yes, the line is Minnesota Commercial, and the train was not moving. At the other end, most cars had bad order tags on them.

Alec

[Semper Vaporo]

Link please. 

Yes, I'm a subscriber but am unfamiliar with this newswire and do not find it referenced on the front page.  Tnx.

Ain't it the pits what we have to go through just to read what they earned money for us to read????

On the TRAINS.COM website, in the center column is a link about "Where to find the Trains News Wire".

It is an explanation of WHY you can't find it, but really does NOT tell you HOW to find it.  There are some images that are too small to be intellegable that do show the link you can use to find the newswire, but unless you KNOW already where to find it, you won't recognize it.

Fortunately, on that page, at the top is a slightly different banner/header that contains a link to the "news wire". 

Unfortunately, that link took me to a fairly non-functional page that has a search function where all you can do is select one or more checkboxes and click a SEARCH button.  I had no idea which category to select, so I picked "General" and the result of the search WAS that there are no articles that matched my search.

At the top of the Search page there is a link to the bridge collapse and clicking on it shows you an early article about the collapse, but there WAS no photo on that page. 

Now that I have gone back to verify my sad tale, the SEARCH seems to be functional and there is a photo on the article page.... but I cannot find the original article I read.

Sorry if I don't include a direct link to the article here... my humblest apologies... but since it is a subscriber only area, I am not sure what would happen for a non-subscriber that happened to click on a link I supply.

It only took me about 10 minutes of clicking on links to get to the article, since I didn't read EVERYTHING on EVERY page, I missed the simple links to the area I wanted.

Hopefully my words here will spare you the inane random clicking.

Oh yeah, the photo in the article is small (as is the article), but if you click on it, a new window will open giving you a much enlarged view.  (Clicking the article will not give you an "expanded view", if you get my drift.)

[Anonymous]

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2007/08/02/us/20070802BRIDGE_index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2007/08/02/us/20070802_BRIDGEB_index.html

http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/bridges/pages/ms16.html

http://media.startribune.com/smedia/2007/08/01/21/bridges200110.source.prod_affiliate.2.pdf

 

Dave

[Anonymous]

I think that is an excellent observation.  I have not seen an absolutely definitive diagram of the collapse, but what I have seen suggests that the first break was right in the center of the big truss that allows the river to be spanned without any piers.  It broke in the center, and both halves tilted downward into a "V" shape.  Then adjoining decks on each side went down.  If the center span truss broke in the middle, the bottom chords would have parted in tension as the break began.  The box truss design does seem a bit like have all your eggs in one basket.

I suggest watching CNN's security video of the bridge going down.  It appears as if the big truss dropped straight down, as if the piers holding it up had been pulled out from under it.  That's why I think the first failure occurred off to the right of the camera's view on that approach.

I think you are correct that the failure began out of the video frame to the right.  I think that would be where the center of the span was.  But I really cannot say that I am certain how it all came down from seeing the video or the computer model.  There have been press conferences all afternoon with a ton of engineering and inspection information being discussed in tremendous detail by engineers and state officials.  I would not have expected such forthright addressing of the public's question about the cause at this early point in the investigation.

[blhanel]

I think that is an excellent observation.  I have not seen an absolutely definitive diagram of the collapse, but what I have seen suggests that the first break was right in the center of the big truss that allows the river to be spanned without any piers.  It broke in the center, and both halves tilted downward into a "V" shape.  Then adjoining decks on each side went down.  If the center span truss broke in the middle, the bottom chords would have parted in tension as the break began.  The box truss design does seem a bit like have all your eggs in one basket.

I suggest watching CNN's security video of the bridge going down.  It appears as if the big truss dropped straight down, as if the piers holding it up had been pulled out from under it.  That's why I think the first failure occurred off to the right of the camera's view on that approach.

[jeaton]

Theres video now, from AOL

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/divers-search-for-bodies-after-collapse/20070801194509990001

Sad, they've been telling us for years that we need major investment in our intrastructure, but our leaders prefer burning billions on anything but...unless that bridge was in alaska

Seems like that security video might give the investigators some clues on where to start looking.

The Federal Highway Administration had the 35W bridge on its deficient list.  It should be noted that a bridge can make that list and still be structurally sound.  No doubt the details of the deficiencies will be forthcoming.

 

[Anonymous]

Link please. 

Yes, I'm a subscriber but am unfamiliar with this newswire and do not find it referenced on the front page.  Tnx.

[Anonymous]

How about a link?

[Anonymous]

>...maybe YOU should watch ICE ROAD TRUCKERS...

I do watch it. But even better, I know a real Ice Road Trucker and listen to his stories with amazement. Now long retired, as one of the original Ice Road Truckers he helped haul the Dew Line equipment north over uncharted lakes. But I never heard him blame "Global Warming" for anything. That fantasy had not yet been invented.

Any other irrelevant comments?

[jeaton]

I'm not sure what you mean about wire story. Is there a link or something to get there?

That's the Newswire at Trains.com.  (Trains magazine subscription required)

[FJ and G]

I'm not sure what you mean about wire story. Is there a link or something to get there?

[Andy Cummings]

Update: I've updated our wire story on the bridge collapse, as well as adding a photo by our own Steve Glischinski.

Andy Cummings
Associate Editor
Trains Magazine
Waukesha, Wis.

[Anonymous]

IIRC, the bridge was described as a box truss structure.  The word truss says it all.  One member fails, especially those under tension, the whole shebang fails.  Given the reports of fatigue and cracking, I'd say that's where the culprit will be found.

I think that is an excellent observation.  I have not seen an absolutely definitive diagram of the collapse, but what I have seen suggests that the first break was right in the center of the big truss that allows the river to be spanned without any piers.  It broke in the center, and both halves tilted downward into a "V" shape.  Then adjoining decks on each side went down.  If the center span truss broke in the middle, the bottom chords would have parted in tension as the break began.  The box truss design does seem a bit like have all your eggs in one basket.

I heard an interview with someone who said he knew one of the construction workers.  That person told him that there was appprehension and speculation all day amoung many of the construction workers about whether the bridge was going to collapse.  He said they all felt that the bridge was vibrating in a very unusual and excessive manner all day, and it concerned them enough to discuss it with each other.

That would have been a good time to go below and eyeball the bottom chords to make sure there was not a one-foot gap where one of them had already parted.

[Anonymous]

>"HEAT" may be the culprit for this collapse?!!!!!!!!!  After all, Minneapolis has had a week, if not more, of excesssive 90 degree temperatures in the city.

Maybe next you will blame "Global Warming" for the collapse?

Gee,if you think I'm wrong,then maybe YOU should watch ICE ROAD TRUCKERS,on the History Channel,and drive a 80,000 pound rig,hauling a 96,000 pound load to a diamond mine,traveling only 15 miles per hour, on 38 inches of ice!!!!! Hmmmm...think the weather conditions wont have an effect on that?

Actually the ice is not a constant thickness. There is a risk of a fall through. I have been all over that show since it started and love it. Especially that Hugh, he is a Trucker I understand very well. I wont go onto that Ice, oh no, not me, done enough of that climbing out of Ft Bridger. Actually a little too much.

It aint the loud creaking, groaning Lake Ice that youre driving on... it's the super sheer, thin slipperyiest sheet barely perceptaible to the eye that brings down the mightest truck, usually on a steep hill. I laugh at the big ice, but cower when the thin stuff is around.

Not everyone gets the history channel.

This is my last post about the bridge problem.

My fear is simple. The media will carry this story and Jam it down our throats daily for 6 months to a year. First the incident, then the investigation, then the blame game and followed by every individual anywhere near that bridge on that day. UGH.

Let's move on shall we?

One other thing, certain hospitals in my area should grease and maintain those elevators from time to time. Those things creak along good to the last drop. I dont want to be on it when it does.

Especially when the owners are pouring billions to build new facilities next door.

[Anonymous]

I heard on CNN about an hour ago that an average of one bridge collapses each week in the US. I  wasn't aware of this. I thought these structures are made to last forever. How come the Romans could make stuff last and we can't?

Money. Government Indifference and Fumbling. It took 30 years to get 6 seperate entitys to come up with a plan to replace the I-495 Woodwrow Wilson Bridge before it too falls into the River south of DC.

Well, I buried family in Arlington some years ago and happily report that a brand new replacement is just about done or nearly so. The old one is going to be scrapped and sent to the sea for reef work or something. And good riddiance to that worn out old bridge.

I gotta tell ya, there are many bridges in the USA that I dont feel good driving onto with a 40 ton vehicle. Some of these were built "Just good enough" and future problems left to the grand children who will be the Government officials someday.

 

[cnwfan2]

>"HEAT" may be the culprit for this collapse?!!!!!!!!!  After all, Minneapolis has had a week, if not more, of excesssive 90 degree temperatures in the city.

Maybe next you will blame "Global Warming" for the collapse?

Gee,if you think I'm wrong,then maybe YOU should watch ICE ROAD TRUCKERS,on the History Channel,and drive a 80,000 pound rig,hauling a 96,000 pound load to a diamond mine,traveling only 15 miles per hour, on 38 inches of ice!!!!! Hmmmm...think the weather conditions wont have an effect on that?

[P42 108]

What a random tragety. Such a shame. When I heard of this event, I gave every member of my family an extra hug before bed. You just never know what can happen when you leave the house. My hopes and prayers go out to those who were involved.

[blhanel]

CNN has a video from a security camera showing the bridge going down.  Too bad it didn't capture the part which went first, which I believe was off to the right of the camera's view.

[tree68]

There will be calls for spending over one trillion dollars to fix it.

In some cases, a repeat of calls.....

IIRC, the bridge was described as a box truss structure.  The word truss says it all.  One member fails, especially those under tension, the whole shebang fails.  Given the reports of fatigue and cracking, I'd say that's where the culprit will be found.

[Anonymous]

Why was it so predictable that global warming would be blamed?  I expect this to quickly become highly politicized in the style of the FEMA/KATRINA fiasco.  Within the next 24 hours, we will begin to hear endless discussion of "Our Crumbling Critical National Infrastructure."  There will be calls for spending over one trillion dollars to fix it.

[beaulieu]

Some additional information, a 2006 MNDOT bridge inspection report does not give the bridge structure high marks. It didn't suggest immenent failure, but there was some cracking of structural elements. The tracks as mentioned are used to store railcars for nearby industries and are now serviced by Minnesota Commercial Rwy. This bridge had several "Vital" elements, the failure of which would bring down the whole bridge. This bridge was built just a little too early to have learned from the failure of the "Silver Bridge" in Ohio, which killed 40+ people. As of Thursday morning 8/2/07, the Toll is 4 Dead, Approx 20 missing.

[Andy Cummings]

Posted an item to the News Wire this morning. The trackage is ex-Great Northern, but is now industrial trackage owned by Minnesota Commercial (the old Minnesota Transfer). Word is that the cars were parked down there and the freeway fell on them. Chatter on the MNRail Yahoo group indicates this is the line that used to go over the famous Stone Arch Bridge, a former railroad bridge that's now a walkway. Being from oustate Minnesota, I'm not real familiar with all this trackage, but I recall that you can see the Stone Arch Bridge as you're crossing the 35W bridge that collapsed. They're also saying on MNRail that this is the track that goes to the old Pillsbury "A" Mill, a well-known Twin Cities landmark.

Andy Cummings
Associate Editor
Trains Magazine
Waukesha, Wis.

[vsmith]

Theres video now, from AOL

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/divers-search-for-bodies-after-collapse/20070801194509990001

Sad, they've been telling us for years that we need major investment in our intrastructure, but our leaders prefer burning billions on anything but...unless that bridge was in alaska