>"HEAT" may be the culprit for this collapse?!!!!!!!!! After all, Minneapolis has had a week, if not more, of excesssive 90 degree temperatures in the city.
Maybe next you will blame "Global Warming" for the collapse?
Hey Dewey,
Thanks for the post..nice to see someone has a good head on their shoulders,and that some people "hopefully" would add heat to the cause of this tragic accident!!!!As for the rail cars....plastic pellets in the covered hoppers,and the tank car..its owned by MCP-Minnesota Corn Processers.Looking at the length of it,it could have been loaded with ethanol at one time,or corn syrup,your guess is good as mine.
The Washington Post reported this morning that a train had been passing beneath the roadway at the time it fell, hitting a cars carrying a chemical (unidentified) and polystyrene beads and that the fire chief said was not particularly hazardous.
They did mention this morning on CNN that the last two summers had been hotter than average (they have to try and tie it to global warming) and that it may have contributed to the collapse. They also mentioned in other reports that the bridge had gotten a 50 out of 120 on the last structural inspection, but that it did not indicate the bridge was dangerous. They were also acting all amazed that people who were not too seriously hurt were actually evacuating themselves rather than waiting for someone to come save them.
There have been annual reports in the news about the crumbling infrastructure of the US, including bridges, water and sewer pipe, etc. They also constantly talk about how what is in place is handling way more traffic and use then it was ever designed for.
It might actually be more amazing that this type of event does not happen more often.
FJ and G wrote: 1. Which railroad is that? MapQuest only lists BNSF several blocks away.2. CNN called the hopper cars tank cars. 3. Almost immediately, Homeland Security said it wasn't a terrorist attack. With the cause still unknown, how can they say that????? I just don't believe the government anymore (not that I think it was an attack, just how can they speculate like that when no one knows the cause). I'm stupified.
1. Which railroad is that? MapQuest only lists BNSF several blocks away.
2. CNN called the hopper cars tank cars.
3. Almost immediately, Homeland Security said it wasn't a terrorist attack. With the cause still unknown, how can they say that????? I just don't believe the government anymore (not that I think it was an attack, just how can they speculate like that when no one knows the cause). I'm stupified.
I saw one of the latest abc news footage earlier and they had a flew around the whole site and mentioned about the trains as they flew pass and I thought I saw a NS single unit at the front just missed out been crushed because it was almost right underneath the partially collapsed section and the crushed hoppers was just a few cars behind it. IT was amazing that the chassis is still standing holding up tons of concrete and steel despite the hopper body been crushed beyond recognistion.
Who owns the bridge?
Why was it not replaced last year?
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
jeaton wrote: It will probably take some time to get the answers, but the forensic structural engineer types are really very good at figuring out just how failures occur. I am thinking about the collapse of the walkway over the lobby in the Kansas City hotel, and of course, the World Trade Center Towers.
It will probably take some time to get the answers, but the forensic structural engineer types are really very good at figuring out just how failures occur. I am thinking about the collapse of the walkway over the lobby in the Kansas City hotel, and of course, the World Trade Center Towers.
Based on a report from 2001 MNDOT declared "poor fatigue details" on the main truss. I would put money down on fatigue being the cause of the collapse. Fatigue faliure is most often catastrophic in nature, which would explain the sudden and rapid nature of the collapse.
While it is true that there are factors of saftey built into structures, accurately predicting loading patterns 40 years in the future can be hit or miss. The construction could have contributed by altering the resonance of the structure, but that isn't too likely. The damage would have been there for years in the form of microcracking, which is detectable, but usually after 90% of the fatigue life is over.
In my opinion, MNDOT really dropped the ball in 2001, but the PE on the original construction will probably take the heat. Hopefully, he will be long retired. I am praying that there is no more loss of life.
HC did not say that it was not a terrorist attack. They basically said they have no indication that it was a terrorist attack. They cannot rule out sabotage until they get into the structural elements under the decking in the river.
FJ and G wrote: 1. Which railroad is that? MapQuest only lists BNSF several blocks away.
BNSF. Ex-Great Northern trackage.
Used to be the track that connected Great Northerns Union Freight Yard at Saint Anthony with the Depot in Minneapolis - crossing the river a little upstream on the famous Stone Arch Bridge. With a couple of sidings on the east bank (north side) of the river.
The Stone Arch Bridge hasn't carried RR traffic since 1978 and is now a foot/bike path across the river.
As far as I can tell from google earth, the tracks now form a small storage yard with a few tracks, where the BNSF apparently was storing some covered hoppers and a few tank cars.
Google earth image:
FJ and G wrote: 2. CNN called the hopper cars tank cars.
Both covered hoppers and tank cars under the bridge. Pictures show at least one, maybe two covered hoppers with damage from falling bridge, and a tank car (closer to the bridge supports) that seems reasonably undamaged.
FJ and G wrote: 3. Almost immediately, Homeland Security said it wasn't a terrorist attack. With the cause still unknown, how can they say that????? I just don't believe the government anymore (not that I think it was an attack, just how can they speculate like that when no one knows the cause). I'm stupified.
Can't help you with any stupification you may feel. There is no sign of a terrorist attack. No sign of car bombs, no particular reason why terrorists should attack one of thousands of interstate highway bridges, no one has claimed responsibility for a terrorist attack.
It is a reasonable null hypothesis that it was not a terrorist attack. Further investigation will probably show what the cause of the bridge collapse.
Stein
It looked like this morning that the bridge fell on the train and not the train derailing, hitting the bridge. There was only two lanes of the bridge open to traffic as well. I don't think something too heavy was on the bridge at the time.
One telling point I heard on ABC this morning was about how dated and dilapidated the highway system was. The anchor actually said on air that people "should look to using mass transit, such as rail systems to help alleviate the crunch on the nations stressed and overloaded highways." I found that interesting.
Dan
As the news was breaking on CNN, the question was asked of several about the number of lanes. Interesting that the aerials clearly show 4 lanes each way. Appearantly one or more were closed for the resurfacing. Watching the TV, I couldn't quite figure the orientation of the cameras. Since the lock and dam is slightly upstream from the bridge and to the right from the TV views, the cameras are to the north on the St Paul side.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
solzrules wrote: DennisHeld wrote: blhanel wrote:A couple of covered hoppers are partially crushed. It looks like the tank car mentioned earlier has quite a dent in it as well. The Fox reporter speculated while we were looking at a close-up of the hoppers that they could be part of a passenger train...My prayers to those involved, as well. I tend not to listen to Fox News for 'catastrophy' coverage. I know that the anchors have to fill the air with talk, but that talk has ranged from unfounded speculation to just plain stupid comments. About a year ago a coal train hit an SUV northeast of St Louis. The Fox News anchor noticed that the coal train was headed into the sunrise and speculated that the engineer couldn't see the SUV in the sun's glare. He said it wasn't known if the train was braking. The last straw was when the Blue Angel jet crashed a couple months back. The Fox News anchor said that there was no way of knowing, this early, what the cause was. But, the Blue Angel's make tight turns and the pilot may have blacked out. Or, the jet probably hit a bird. Or, there was a mechanical problem. Or.......more drivel.Rest assured, the other stations are guilty of mindless speculation as well. Fox just has a stranglehold on some of the worst (ever see Geraldo?)Anyway, just caught a snippet of the news and the mayor has stated that 6 people have passed away as a result of this. The news gets worse and worse, it would seem.
DennisHeld wrote: blhanel wrote:A couple of covered hoppers are partially crushed. It looks like the tank car mentioned earlier has quite a dent in it as well. The Fox reporter speculated while we were looking at a close-up of the hoppers that they could be part of a passenger train...My prayers to those involved, as well. I tend not to listen to Fox News for 'catastrophy' coverage. I know that the anchors have to fill the air with talk, but that talk has ranged from unfounded speculation to just plain stupid comments. About a year ago a coal train hit an SUV northeast of St Louis. The Fox News anchor noticed that the coal train was headed into the sunrise and speculated that the engineer couldn't see the SUV in the sun's glare. He said it wasn't known if the train was braking. The last straw was when the Blue Angel jet crashed a couple months back. The Fox News anchor said that there was no way of knowing, this early, what the cause was. But, the Blue Angel's make tight turns and the pilot may have blacked out. Or, the jet probably hit a bird. Or, there was a mechanical problem. Or.......more drivel.
blhanel wrote:A couple of covered hoppers are partially crushed. It looks like the tank car mentioned earlier has quite a dent in it as well. The Fox reporter speculated while we were looking at a close-up of the hoppers that they could be part of a passenger train...
Rest assured, the other stations are guilty of mindless speculation as well. Fox just has a stranglehold on some of the worst (ever see Geraldo?)
Anyway, just caught a snippet of the news and the mayor has stated that 6 people have passed away as a result of this. The news gets worse and worse, it would seem.
futuremodal wrote: Bucyrus wrote:I have heard of cases where a piece of freeway deck suddenly drops. Earthquakes taken down bridges. A barge can hit a bridge. But I have never known of something this big happening in the normal life a bridge. They must have large safety factors, and I am sure they keep track of deterioration issues. Homeland Security said they cannot link it with terrorism. One thing is for sure: This cannot possibly go down as something that just happened to happen with no clear reason.I was wondering. Is this the first case of a steel arch bridge collapse for no immediately apparent reason? I've read about past bridge disasters and can't find anything like this.
Bucyrus wrote:I have heard of cases where a piece of freeway deck suddenly drops. Earthquakes taken down bridges. A barge can hit a bridge. But I have never known of something this big happening in the normal life a bridge. They must have large safety factors, and I am sure they keep track of deterioration issues. Homeland Security said they cannot link it with terrorism. One thing is for sure: This cannot possibly go down as something that just happened to happen with no clear reason.
I was wondering. Is this the first case of a steel arch bridge collapse for no immediately apparent reason? I've read about past bridge disasters and can't find anything like this.
The cause is definitely baffling. Nobody has a feasible explanation. MNDOT inspects the bridge on a cycle not to exceed two years, usually every single year. I saw one guy interviewed who said he has been in the bridge business for over 30 years, and has never seen or heard of anything like this.
Im not certain of the precise location yet but there is an old Truck Stop in the immediate area on one of the banks of the river. I may be thinking of another bridge elsewhere. I remember what a pain it was to cross that river there in that part of town with all the ramps.
The last time I was on the bridge it was doing ok, but that was years ago.
Apparently we are losing people with passing time, my prayers out to the lost and those who are affected.
Tomorrow's Commute is going to be a anvil breaker in that town.
I am totally curious as to why that big strong bridge failed. Me thinks someone didnt catch something in time or fix something right. These big bridges need people walking on them daily checking rivets, bolts, welds etc. All the time, checking.
I understand that the people worked hard by themselves to help each other. I say OORAH go Minnesota! That's the way to do it.
>I looked on Google maps, and it appears that the bridge goes over a train yard, which dead-ends west of it, so it must have been freight cars in the yard that the bridge collapsed on, not a mainline train.
Looks to me like that is the only rail line out of a large grain elevator complex, and it also serves to deliver coal(?) to the large electric generating plant nearby. If so,there are going to be a lot of trucks running on the streets thereabouts for some time.
Anyone know for sure?
If you look closely at the ACF Center Flow type 4-Bay Covered Hoppers they appear to have prevented the section of the bridge above them from sloping down further. The Petroleum Type Tank Car might have been damaged. Everything is perched very precariously. It looks like they will need every large crane to lift those sections safety.
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
I looked on Google maps, and it appears that the bridge goes over a train yard, which dead-ends west of it, so it must have been freight cars in the yard that the bridge collapsed on, not a mainline train. Still, this is terrible. My prayers are with all of the people involved. Hope most get away safely.
Prayers to all the families that will be affected by the bridge collaspe.
I wonder whos rail line it crossed. How will it effect rail traffic in the area. What about the river traffic since it did fall in the Mississippi River.
Paul
http://www.youtube.com/user/pavabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvbox
It's not completely off-topic, because the bridge collapsed on top of some covered hopper cars on tracks running parallel to the river. A tank car is sitting beside them undamaged. If it contains anything toxic, that's too close for comfort.
My thoughts and prayers go out to those in the Twin Cities area. They've apparently rescued people from the river, so let's pray the death toll will be low.
This gives me the heebie-jeebies. I used to travel the Pulaski Skyway everyday.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Something heavy on top of something that wasn't ready to support that heavy of a load. I pray for those affected by this.
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