Phoebe VetJapan, on the other hand, had only .6 guns per 100 people and .06 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people, making it the country with both the fewest guns per capita and the fewest gun-related deaths.
But they lead the world in death by giant humanoid robots and demon spawn. Or at least that's what I gather from what I watch.
Now getting sort of back on topic - what about tasers for RR passenger personnel? But I wouldn't be morally opposed to some sort of sanctioned weaponry (with approrpiate training and certifications) for all RR folk. (notice I am not restricting this just to Amtrak. God knows I've already walked a train with air hose wrench in hand, just in case I *ahem* came across a busted air hose).
I know the railroads do not want the liabilities, but still...
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
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It's always good to hear from professional railroaders like zugmann and edblysard, they've got insights the rest of us on the outside looking in just don't have and can't have.
Any Amtrak personnel out there? I'd be interested in hearing what YOU think.
Firelock76 It's always good to hear from professional railroaders like zugmann and edblysard, they've got insights the rest of us on the outside looking in just don't have and can't have. Any Amtrak personnel out there? I'd be interested in hearing what YOU think.
I'd like to second what Firelock said.
Additionally, I find it fascinating that the majority of shootings are in states where more gun control is mandated. Its about as successful as prohibition.
Firelock76 professional railroaders like zugmann
Using that term very loosely.
Murray Firelock76 It's always good to hear from professional railroaders like zugmann and edblysard, they've got insights the rest of us on the outside looking in just don't have and can't have. Any Amtrak personnel out there? I'd be interested in hearing what YOU think. I'd like to second what Firelock said. Additionally, I find it fascinating that the majority of shootings are in state where more gun control is mandated. Its about as successful as prohibition.
Additionally, I find it fascinating that the majority of shootings are in state where more gun control is mandated. Its about as successful as prohibition.
Isn't it odd that nobody complains that calling for more guns is inapropriate in this thread?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I started the whole gun angle, but I belive it is appropriate to this thread. Railroaders work in some dangerous areas (and an amcoach can qualify as one).
You were in law enforcement Phoebe. I'm sure you worked in some less than stellar places. Would you feel comfortable to be in those areas by yourself without your firearm, and a mile+ away from your car? And throw in a radio that has a lousy range. Guys have been robbed, beaten, and even killed out here.
It is something I think will eventually come up for debate.
zugmann Firelock76 professional railroaders like zugmann Using that term very loosely.
I think I know where you're coming from. I'm a copier repair technician by trade, have been for 25 years, and every once in a while I run into a problem machine that makes me feel like I just started! Usually it stumps everyone else so I don't feel so badly.
Zug:
If you read my posts carefully you will see that I have not said no one should carry a gun. I said that we need a system to make it harder for people who are not supposed to have guns to get them. The only requirement I would like to see for legal possession is a class to teach people when they are allowed to shoot people. Your arguments about whether or not I feeel safe without one are a red herring. I do not carry one now. Law enforcement is a special circumstance. Citizens are not expected to knowingly insert themselves into danger. You have the option to withdraw. Law enforcement officers are trained in the laws and regularly tested on the range. Not a bad idea for anyone who carries.
I think we're reading way past each other's posts here. I don't want people who shouldn't have guns to have them, either. But they do. And until a time when we can change that, we're sort of stuck with the system we have now. I already said that if railroads ever decided to allow its personnel to carry, that they be trained, certified, etc.
I don't think the situation is a red herring. The nature of our work as railroaders is unlike many. We spend a lot of time in bad areas, usually isolated and alone. It's funny how many times we cross paths with police officers in strange areas at strange times. And with how many yards are set up, there isn't always an easy route to withdrawl. High fences, building backlots, retention basins, railcars blocking escape routes, there isn't always a nice clean getaway.
While we may not knowingly insert ourselves into dangerous situations, sometimes the dangerous situations sort of come to us. Especially in urban yards and terminals. While the yard I worked with had 2 awesome police departments with quick response time, until they showed up, we were on our own. I won't lie, there have been a few isntances I was very uneasy about trespassers that showed up out from between the cars. In this day and age, who knows who these people are. And we also are dealing with huge amounts of very hazardous materials. While I'm not one who usualyl jumps on the TERRORISM! bandwagon, the potential is there for something really bad to happen.
Even if I had the option to carry, I do not know if I would. Just an academic debate.
Phoebe Vet Murray Firelock76 It's always good to hear from professional railroaders like zugmann and edblysard, they've got insights the rest of us on the outside looking in just don't have and can't have. Any Amtrak personnel out there? I'd be interested in hearing what YOU think. I'd like to second what Firelock said. Additionally, I find it fascinating that the majority of shootings are in state where more gun control is mandated. Its about as successful as prohibition. Isn't it odd that nobody complains that calling for more guns is inapropriate in this thread?
There's no reason that is should be considered inappropriate.
Zugmann wrote the following:[snipped]
"...Railroaders work in some dangerous areas (and an amcoach can qualify as one)..."
We occasionally see a Poster on this FORUM mention, or posts a link to an incident that happend to a railroader while on the job. Either a robber boards a cab(locomotive), and holds an employee(s) up; or possibly a railroader is working on the ground in an area that is questionable, and is assaulted by either knife, or gun, or other instrument.
My point being,there are historical precedents for caution in certain work areas. Areas railroaders operate that are insecure for those employees, either by having incidents happen with some frequency in those 'insecure' places, or the remoteness of the surroundings, in general. Poor, or no lighting could be a cause for those safety concerns.
We all know that there are railroad police officers who are armed to perform their assigned duties. How do the railroads handle the security of their employees that must operate into those insecure areas??
I know of industrial and business areas in Chicago where no one should go at night or in the dark. I am sure Ed Blysard has seen similar in the Houston area.
I have never heard it said that a railroad might authorize 'other employees' ( Maintenance or T&E) to "carry" on the job for their own protection.
How do the railroads handle these situations?
Phoebe Vet Isn't it odd that nobody complains that calling for more guns is inapropriate in this thread?
edblysard Phoebe Vet Murray Firelock76 It's always good to hear from professional railroaders like zugmann and edblysard, they've got insights the rest of us on the outside looking in just don't have and can't have. Any Amtrak personnel out there? I'd be interested in hearing what YOU think. I'd like to second what Firelock said. Additionally, I find it fascinating that the majority of shootings are in state where more gun control is mandated. Its about as successful as prohibition. Isn't it odd that nobody complains that calling for more guns is inapropriate in this thread? I don’t think calling for more guns is the answer…most legal gun owners are responsible and careful, and don’t use their firearms to commit crimes. Criminals on the other hand… Again, if we just enforced the existing gun laws with vigor, and imposed the allowable sentences for those who use a firearm in the commission of a crime, it would make a difference. As for the crazies out there, nothing will stop them in the first place, so…
It is good that the man in Niles was caught quickly and removed from the train. Except for those who were cut, the worst thing was the great delay in getting the uninjured passengers to their destinations.
Johnny
Somebody asked what Amtrak personnel think. Maybe I don't really qualify because I'm retired. I couldn't speak for everybody anyway.
In 25+ years of onboard service, I never had an occasion where a gun would have been helpful. I had a few dicey situations that were handled responsibly and carefully because that is what was necessary. If we had been armed, it's possible that one of us employees might have taken the short cut and used our guns instead of our brains.
We were trained to provide onboard service; not to go into combat. The two activities require entirely different skill sets and mind sets. It's quite likely that the bad guy is more skilled in combat than I am, which means the body count will only go up.
Calling the local police is still the best option.
One man's opinion. YMMV.
Tom
P.S. If this is considered a political (i.e., inappropriate) anti-gun tirade, then I apologize.
To Ed, Tom, and others: I woud totally agree that the Police are the right response to an incident involving railroad workers. It just seems strange that the potential for repetedly putting individual employees in situations of risk while they do their work related duties; would seem to fly in the face of on the job safety.
Many areas where railroad employees operate are 'sketchy' areas at best; in the dark areas around plants, warehouse districts. Yet, in order to do their jobs, and the work required, railroad employees necessarily must be in those problematic areas, while doing their jobs on a regular basis.
I had asked the question earlier, about railraders working in those problematic areas. Do their employer's ( the railroads) provide any additional protecton from their own railrtoad police to those empoyees? Without personal cell phones(to call 911 directly) while on the jobs, response time would seem to be effected by an employee calling in to another empoyee ( or dispatch), to request assistance; those kinds of situations can turn to a bad outcome very quickly, so a quick response can be important.
Random crimes are often crimes of opportunity, and circumstance. That these situations could be accepted as a 'normal' part of work, seems to put individual safety at risk.
Excerpt from article, “Saginaw man accused in Amtrak stabbings is a veteran and 'the system failed him,' sister says”
http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2014/12/suspected_amtrak_stabber_took.html
He started by getting on a Greyhound bus [in Louisville], but got off when he saw people making the hand signs again, he told his sister by phone.
He then bought a plane ticket, but pushed the flight back three times because of similar concerns. He slept at a VA hospital in Kentucky those nights until Friday, Dec. 5, when he told his sister he would board no matter what.
One of the times at the airport, he called the police and told his sister they responded and "laughed at him," though she wondered if he perceived some things differently than how they really occurred, noting he said he saw an officer making the same hand gestures and said he could not trust them.
He took the flight to a layover in Chicago, where he told his sister by phone that someone on the flight was whispering to him that he was going to hurt or kill him, she said.
"We were having conversations back and forth, and I said, 'You know, Mike, this doesn't make any sense. Why are they after you?'"
"Whatever he believed in his head was real to him," she said. "Nothing I could have said could make him think any different."
He saw the same man from the first flight boarding the next flight, he told his sister. Instead of boarding the connecting flight to Flint, he went to the Amtrak station and got a ticket heading east, Tracy Williams found out later.
Family members were waiting at the Bishop International Airport in Flint when news reports surfaced that a stabbing had occurred on the train.
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