First the Good New, Pairs is back in Jail!
Now to the subject. As many of you know I have been have a lot of problems with my Genesis Big Boy 4009. Ever thing from Decoder problems , tender tipping (not like cow tipping when they are a sleep) to lack of pulling power. Dave in the Teck deparment asked me to see if the LHS would take it back and give me a driffrent one. Asked Ken at K-10 Trains (best LHS in Maryville IL) and he said he would. Ken hears all the complaints I have in person so he knows it has been a battle for some time.
Today I got my New Big Boy 4020 and it is TALENTED AND DOES TRICKS!
OK, it only does it tricks on left hand turns. The PIC shows an APX 23" turn on the B line passing track. Then I ran it on the B main line that has 26" turns and it did the same tricks. On a 18" right turn it is rock solid?
How do I fix this? More weight on the lead truck? It is spring loaded, tighten the screw or use a spacer under the spring?
I have checked the rails and they are in gauge. Funny thing with old 4009 having all it's problems staying on the track was not one of them It ran the same rails for hours with no problems.
Oh, I dont think it is the problem but there is a spot for a screw (I can see the brass threads) on the rear divers in the center of the pistons.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Ken, with every post and with every return of an Athearn sound-equipped steamer that you report, I renew my vow to never, but ever, purchase an Athearn.
Anyway, your front truck is not mounted properly or else it is experiencing a retardation of its desire/need to slide and or turn to the left. Disassemble (why you should have to do this on two successive locos is beyond me, but..) the truck and feel around and look for flashing, a burr, missing fasteners...whatever. The spring apparently isn't doing much good, or it is overwhelmed by the fault, whatever it is.
Crandell 4009 did not have this problem, it had driffrent ones but staying on the rails was not one of them.
You have a PM as well.
Wonder why my BLI and Bachmann don't do tricks?
Ken
selector wrote: Ken, with every post and with every return of an Athearn sound-equipped steamer that you report, I renew my vow to never, but ever, purchase an Athearn.Anyway, your front truck is not mounted properly or else it is experiencing a retardation of its desire/need to slide and or turn to the left. Disassemble (why you should have to do this on two successive locos is beyond me, but..) the truck and feel around and look for flashing, a burr, missing fasteners...whatever. The spring apparently isn't doing much good, or it is overwhelmed by the fault, whatever it is.
Hear hear.
I gotta say stop trying to run such a big engine on short radius, the first two axles of that first driving set are really off the rails and contribute nothing. never mind the crappy spring on that truck.
Im sorry ive seen these photos, it only affirms my hardening determination to run big steam on big radius.. like 30"
Safety Valve , again I have to post that the radius it self is not the problem! 4009 did the same rails with no derailling problems! Class J and M1a BLI are draging freight on the on the same lines as I miss spell. Yes, thay are smaller but it is not the turns. Be sides Safety, why only on Left turns and not a right?
Genesis may have problem, but 4020 has it's own speical problems. Decoders sound great and it seems to pull less power than my old 4009. It just does not like Left turns?
Right Hand Ken Confussed again.
Ok, why does it only do left turns? Is it because the spring is one that slides from side to side instead of built on center?
Try a stronger spring or more weight or a combination of both.
Ken, flip it upside down and see what is different when turning one way versus the other. Obviously something is catching. Not unusual with articulated steam by the way, to have an issue turning one way versus the other. I had a brass Class A and one steam pipe joint was sticking a bit, and she would NOT turn left about 60% of the time.
I would not fool with springs or weights on the front truck. It should be free to follow the rails side to side and up and down (a little).
Flipping it up side down and will let you know what I fine.
Dave onces again I will post the fact that the turns radius is not the problem! Look silly I will go along with but #4009 had no problems!!!!!!!!!!! PLUS IT IS DERAILING ON A 24 TO 26" TURN!!!!!! 18" TURN IT IS ROCK SOLID!!!!!!!!!
Guess no one reads posting just throw in there 2 cents worth! Soory to sound harsh but it is not the %&*! turns!
OK, I played with it for say 2 hours. First I added a .015 athearn washer uuder the front spring and it helped a but still derailed. Then I added a second and it made it around the bench and lead truck did not derail! But the rear drive wheels of front drivers derailed, Hum. Added a 3rd washer but did not help the rear drive wheel of front drive truck (is that right)??
Now I will say this, it pulled much better than the 4009 did, tender did not tip and a 25 car drag was not a problem! OK we are getting some where, I think. Backed the front spring/ truck srew out 1 turn, it now has 3 .015 washer under it then I threw on .5 oz's on the front walk way. Gave it another pass, rear wheels derailed again!
Remember haters of 18" TURNS it does fine on them!!!! So I ran it on the main B-line that has 28" turns that go left. Started it up and was looking good made the first left and was running just fine! Was pulling my Class J BLI train and that has 35 cars and doing it with no effort! Way better than the 4009 that I returned for this Big Boy.
Then it stopped moving but keept making chuffing sounds? Unhooked the train and shut down the DCC power supply. Started it up again and just sat there sounding great! Just would not @#%& move!
More than likely this posting will be pulled! But unless Athearn learns what problems we owners are having they will have no idea what to fix. I am soory to say it is going back into the box and back to the LHS it goes. With the refund I will get a PCM I am sorry to say. I trust the name Athearn and MRC and love my Blue Boxes engine's and MRC 9500. (I have DC and DCC lines) but the Big Boys have beat me.
Sad to give up, first engine that has beatten me Ken
Hum Dave, the owners manual says on page 4 line 15 (apx) "Front and rear engines(cylinders and coupled drive wheel sets) both pivot in order to manage 18: radius curves". Plus if you look at the Mag shoot out between the PCM and Genesis it stared both would take a 18" turn!!!!!!!!
Plus oh wise one, why would the 4009 not derail on the same bench for hours with no end with no problems? I bought it on 4-10-07 and ran it apx 100 hours. With Decoder and lack of pulling power problems I ran it becaused I Love the look. Ran great on DC just could not drag over 20 cars.
If you would like a first hand look of the owners manual for a mer $380.00 with shipping and over night mail yet you can have it and the #4020 as well! With your bigger radius turn's I am 1000% postive the Decoder Will Work Just Fine! I am sure you would agree.
Now kind sir, if you would please get off the radius subject. I don't want to get mad and I am sure you are trying to help as well. I am still green but by far more advances than I was last year.
I'm echoing Crandell here, Ken. Did you find any binding or interference with the free movement of the front engine? I have a Y6b that had burrs on the pivot for the front engine that interfered with the pin that held the engine to the boiler, which was an easy fix. You might be able to correct it yourself, but if the decoder is failing again then maybe it's time to cut bait.
You are right that these engines are designed to negotiate 18" radii, and they should be able to do it flawlessly or there's something wrong. The fact that it makes some modelers noses wrinkle in disgust is not the locomotive's fault; in fact any disapproval I feel for such unprototypical behavior is replaced by my appreciation for the engineering it takes to make a model this prototypical slither through such tight curves.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
selector wrote:Ken, have you tried turning the truck over? Reversing its direction, too? Maybe it was inverted during assemby, or else put on backwards? This is a wild guess, but I can't think of anything else.
Ken,,,,,make sure that all the wheels are not only in gauge, but run true.....If you are not set up with a cradle to turn the locomotive upside down and power it up to check the trueness of the drivers,,,, try blocking the locomotive (upright) with popsickle sticks so the drivers clear your benchtop...with power applied, you will be able to see if any of the drivers wobble or hobble when running.....
to check for proper gauge, you can use a calipers and measure the flange to flange distance of the wheels..... compare these measurements to those of a good running locomotive...If a caliper is not handy, an axel and wheels from a good running railcar or loco could be used as a gauge for comparison....
Keep us posted, and best of luck..BDT
I am curious about Erie's suppositions, too. It would be worth removing the front engine to find out how it is hinged and if something about the castings, or what's not meant to be there on the castings, is out of whack. A screw backed out? Flashing? Piping not pressed into its retainer?
Looking at the first photo, the front truck is distressed because it is being forced into a turn that its pivot point can't accommodate. It's pivot point can't accommodate the rail curvature because its own mounting, the engine itself, is not being permitted to swing in a leftward arc to the extent intended by its designers. Simply that.
Look at it in a new way, Ken.
Ken--
I'm also wondering about the front truck having been installed backwards. Reason I say this is that I got a brass 4-8-4 a couple of years ago that was having problems on a 36" radius in one direction!! Checked the front truck and it was backwards, rubbing against the cylinders. Flipped the truck, no problems. On the photo, your front truck looks as if it is catching the cylinders with the lead wheels, which actually might be the REAR wheels. It shouldn't be doing that on a 23" radius, as per your photo.
Try reversing it and see if that helps.
However, your first sentence REALLY made my day, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Ken, one more thing, get a perfectly square un-warped piece of two by four as long as the wheelbase of both engines combined. Problem might be the engines are not free enough at the joint to follow any irregularities in track yaw or pitch. If you set the two by four on the rails and it rocks anywhere that could be an issue.
Good luck.
Hey thanks for all the ideas. I don't think the front trucks are on backwards or up side down. Truck has a V shape where the screw goes, it is facing foward. On the side facing up there is a grove that a washer rides in.
It is a shame that it pulls so much better than the 4009. I gave it a nother shot tonight on the DC A line. Man it pulls like what I thought a Big Boy should. Pulled another 35 car train with no problems till it hit a left hand turn! I am sure I could fix it, but why should I fix yet another new $300.00 plus engine? (I did fix a new BLI not wanting to waite 3 months to get it back).
Thursday it will no longer be my problem, going back for a full refund and then Friday I will either buy a PCM or a Trix. Waiting to hear from the Trix seller on warranty but more than likely it will be a PCM.
I just got through running my Genesis BB pass one of the spots on my layout with 24" radius curves. This track is powered by a MRC Tech 3 with amp and voltmeters. NOW....the BB runs fair till it hit that tight curve, and noticably slows. And the amp meter needle vibrates. Signaling the amp draw is affected from the strain. Largest steam engine ever-- the loco isn't designed for super sharp curves! Its simply too BIG. Plenty of issues will arise from attemping to send this massive beast through 'train set' type curves. Wider the curves, the less trouble the giant will have. Couple the same train to it and send it through 26" radius or larger and see it the truck acts up.
"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"
EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION
http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588
My J1 squeals through 24" (That curve was handlaid with a little bit tighter radius in spots) and slows greatly and gets amp-hungry. I wont even try the Duplex on that.
Now the little Y3 from Proto eases through the 24 just fine although the front truck is super sensitive to track flaws greater than it's flange depth. I depend on Kato to eliminate as much as I can and file down the rest to metal shavings LOL.
To the poster with the idea of a flawless 2x4 with a length of a engine, wont a simple 1 or 2 feet long Bubble level made of precision metal work just as well?
I have a few more days to play with it. Main clue is the front truck no loner tips but the rear wheel of the front driver comes off the rails now.
Main thing I can think of is check the drivers for wobble. What I check was in gauge but not the full 360 around so there may be a problem.
Now where did I leave that darn remote so I can reset the darn Decoder.
loathar wrote:Just curious? Do those BB's have any blind drivers or are all the wheels flanged?
All are flanged.
Something that hasn't been mentioned but needs to be checked is, possible dips or rises in your trackwork that the BB can't tolerate. You need a short bubble level that is made to hang on a string. With track power off, set the level crossways on your track and slide it along, watching to see if the bubble moves from center. If there's a dip or hump in your outer rail, that can cause derailments on some locomotives or rolling stock that can't flex enough to cope with it.