Don Gibson wrote: Just curious legal eagle:WHOSE tracks were used for the Schenectedy - Omaha run? NYC/CNW or CMStP?The deliverER, not deliveree.
Just curious legal eagle:
WHOSE tracks were used for the Schenectedy - Omaha run? NYC/CNW or CMStP?
The deliverER, not deliveree.
I'm guessing on this one, but probally the CNW, they probally had beefier rail to handle the occasional monster load of the big boys, and I believe they were still UP's runthru partner to Chicago at that time. the locos were worked along the way by the deliverer to the deliveree, as the fee for delivery, same as today. instead of deliveree paying a cash delivery fee, if the loco were just towed to the drop-off/delivery point.
boy thats a bunch of "deliveries" scattered thu there.
Don you may be right but my Genesis problem are over. I did not take it back today and gave it one last try on the DC line. I Did not resit the decoder with the 4009 when it's DCC stopped working it still ran great on DC. This one moved 2 feet again on DC and did the samething. Enigne stopped moving but sound worked great.
There is only 1 way this Big POS will be here Friday night. K-10 lets me keep the 4020 tender, give me back the 4009 engine and a driffrent decoder. Other wise it will be HO scale 61 Chevy bumper's.
By the way Don does this section more to your likeing?
When this section is done there will be no more 18" turns.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Don Gibson wrote: I KNOW the UP Turbines were cleared to LA (but were found too noisy for residents) ... and the Big Boys were designed for the heavy Ogden UT - Evanston WY -(Echo Canyon) climb, but did then really run west of Ogden, or east of Cheyenne except as FILL-INS? Similarly ATSF's 2-10-10-2's were built for the long AZ divide climb, and then tried on Cajon pass before being scrapped.The Big Boy's were well suited for Wyoming's 8000' high desert, where the steepest grade was into/out of the Laramie Plain (Sherman - Dale Creek).
I KNOW the UP Turbines were cleared to LA (but were found too noisy for residents) ... and the Big Boys were designed for the heavy Ogden UT - Evanston WY -(Echo Canyon) climb,
but did then really run west of Ogden, or east of Cheyenne except as FILL-INS?
Similarly ATSF's 2-10-10-2's were built for the long AZ divide climb, and then tried on Cajon pass before being scrapped.
The Big Boy's were well suited for Wyoming's 8000' high desert, where the steepest grade was into/out of the Laramie Plain (Sherman - Dale Creek).
and if want really go deep, they were built in Schenectady, New York , and worked in revenue service on the trip from the factory to the delivery point in omaha, so they technically operated from New York to Utah and could go to L.A.
KEN:
YOUR PROBLEMS - engines wheels not following the track - and probably a combination, rather than a single simple thing.
WHERE do you start? It's about tolerances: yours, mine, the engineer's, and the factory's. We are not all perfect, nor are our products.
MY apparaisal: TOLERNCES - or lack of same.
You have (a)one engine whose pivoting pilot track is off-center; (b)one engine whose tender axles are incorrect length; and (c)you are pushin the edge with a misappropriate layout design to run them on.
1. The engines: I would rather get the appropriate tender wheels from Athearn and swap them out, than fiddle with what is the necessary adjustment of the pilot trucks.
2. the track: you appear to be running a '36 wheeler' on a 'go-cart' track, where some of your smaller engines you say 'can handle it' - (according to you).
3. YOU are fighting the laws of Physics. I'm sure the Big Boy works fine - on a straight track (and was tested on same). Curves are a luxury in a factory.
A 6" board along a single wall will allow you to move forward & backward, and with a ton of cars.
EITHER the layout has to go - or the ENGINE. 4' corner sections will allow you up to 46"radius curves and ALL basements have 4 corners. (All you have to do is connect them).
4. Stop thinking in terms of a single board loop.
Atlas flextrack is too flexible to make a consistant curve - breaking up into multiple of smaller curves, for engines 'on the edge' to try to follow - KATO code 100 takes the guesswork out of track laying - but you keep buying what's cheap... and will CONTINUE to have problems. I made this suggestion over a year ago.
Will Kato code 100 solve yourproblems? Not if it is the engine -
BUT IT'S A START!
We seem to keep wandering here. I may have missed some replies through the 4 pages.
Has anyone suggested to remove the spring from the pilot truck. The first loco had no track issues, this one does. Yes, there could be problems with the track, by pushing this beast to the limits, one( the 1st one) may have just squeaked by where as the loco in question is causing the problems. The first pic showing the truck tilted with the wheels totally off the inside rail tells me that the pivot, spring or stops are to blame. As the truck trys to swing radically into the turn it is binding and the only place to go is up off the rail. I like Erie's suggestion of laying it on a glass or equivalent top and check the movement. The first pic also shows the lead driver forced to the point of climbing the rails.
Selector's recommendation of removing the truck is also another step in the troubleshooting. Watch the swing of the articulated front set, it may not have the full movement or as much as the first loco.
Very perplexing problem, if we can stay on "track" pun intended we may get Ken's problem solved.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
unionpacificchuck wrote:whoop soory i was avoiding childish questions. you guys are horrible at up questions you guys need to come up with sothing good before i respend to anything and lemme give a answer to that death vally cali..............LMAO
BUZZZZZZZZZZ!sorry, but that's wrong, I guess you googled some bad information. but thanks for playing anyway
The big boys were cleared to operate all the way to L.A.
cudaken wrote: Chuck, GO TOO BED! I don't get home to 10:00 and I am off Thursday and Friday so that is why I am up late. But it time for me to go to the round house as well. M1a steamer is pulling up to the warehoues to be un loaded to night and the SD-7 is pulling to a passing spur for a crew change. Big Boy is waiting for the scrap heap to be made in to bumpers for 61 Chevys. Cuda Ken
Chuck, GO TOO BED! I don't get home to 10:00 and I am off Thursday and Friday so that is why I am up late. But it time for me to go to the round house as well. M1a steamer is pulling up to the warehoues to be un loaded to night and the SD-7 is pulling to a passing spur for a crew change. Big Boy is waiting for the scrap heap to be made in to bumpers for 61 Chevys.
Can is sit in my museum of transportaton waiting restoration? Go to bed i have nothing to do.
Don, as far as removing the front tuck I was toying with that idea. Never did run it the other drection and I never will. I wish K-10 Trains would let me have back the 4009 and keep the 4020 tender but then I am sure Athearn would not give him the money back.
Up Chuck is right about the Athearn Big Boy.
I will ask you folks one thing, I know that Up Chuck has said some, well odd and not just right claims. But if Chuck answer my posting and unless he says some just off the wall BS forget the pass. Remember when most of us where his age we did not have computers. If he goes Dingbat, nail his happy %&^!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On the Oil Buring Big Boy, as far as I know only one. They only used one burner and it would not heat the water evenly. You would think they might have tried 2 or 3 of them? That is one of the reasons they never restored any of the Big boys. UP will not run coal on there lines anymore.
Now back to my mess. Last night I ran 4020 again with out a drag. Remember there are 3 athearn .015 spacers under the front truck so tipping of the truck is over. Ran it at a slow speed say 25 sMPH apx. Made 6 passes with no problem on the B line. Hum, could it had fixed it self? (I have had 4 engines for what ever reason that would not track right for a while then no problems but never a steamer. My first Athern was a super weight F-7A and was a POS for a while then one day it stayed on the rails and still does)
OK 4020 is tracking lets give it a little more steam! Cranked it up to about 40 sMPH and made it around 2 times then rear drive wheel came off passing throught a Atalas # 8 turn out then derailed around the next left hand turn! OK, it is my rails, that I can fix. Filed down the frog some and gave it a nother pass, 2 times and derailed again. Worked the frog a little more and ran it again made it 4 times and I was up to say 50 sMPH. Great it lives!!!!!!!!!!
Tonight I was full of hope with visons of 4020 pulling a 40 car drag in my head. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy! 4020 was sitting on a straight section, turned on the light, sounded the bell and blew the whistel so the in my little world we knew that Thunder Geting Ready To Roll. Life is good.
Thunder rolled for about 2 feet and stopped! Chuffing sounds keept going, bell keep going and would make all it sounds just not MOVE!
Well I am done with this Big Boy, it a big something but not what I want. I really hopped it would live I did not want to return it for my money back from my LHS and buy off the internet. But K-10 cannot get a PCM.
MY NEXT POSTING WILL BE HOW TO KEEP A PCM BB ON THE RAILS!
AggroJones wrote:To UP chuck:At their furthest point in history, how far west were the UP big boys clear to operate?let him anwser
To UP chuck:
At their furthest point in history, how far west were the UP big boys clear to operate?
let him anwser
"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"
EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION
http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588
unionpacificchuck wrote:what would you know you have a crappy rivarossi.
Who, me?
See, that's not funny Chuck, just insulting. You're going to have to drop the attitude if you want to engage in some online banter and get along with people.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Meanwhile, back to the issue at hand of the problematic Big Boy....after reading Ken's description over and over when he shouts "It's not the 18" curve...", he might be right. Ken, you really need to take a close look at your track work on the curve that is causing the problem.
Since on an 18" curve the lead truck and boiler would have to swing wider than on a 24 or 26" curve, it leads me to believe your track is the problem and not the locomotive. After all, if the truck is moving less than it is on an 18" curve, it stands to reason that if it can swing far enough to run on the 18" curve, it should have no problem with the wider curve. Just because the NMRA gauge shows the gauge of the track is within specs, that doesn't mean that the curve is a constant radius through the curve. Nor does it mean that the railheads are in the same plane. If one railhead is higher or lower than the opposite, you will have trouble with that locomotive going through that curve.
Just my
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
Don Gibson, I am pondering picking up another 2-10-2 from Proto for just that reason. I could probably pair the two and walk off with a train for less than some of the more expensive engines.
Sometimes you get more double or even triple heading for the money than one big engine that requires a monstor radius.
again I have to post that the radius it self is not the problem! 4009 did the same rails with no derailling problems! ... Be sides , why only on Left turns and not a right? - Right handed Ken
(1) WHY don't you run things the other direction ?
(2) WHAT happens when the pilot truck is removed ? (CLUE).
I realize you like the challenge of learning things the hard way, but - I'm with Crandell - except I would want 36" - 48" curves with that engine.
Betcha (2) BLI 2-10-2's double-headed would work better, ala ATSF, (same money- more traction). Obviously, Athearn's QC hasn't go their act together yet.
(3)Will your LHS let you put 4020's tender on 4009?
Yup, that's it! Thanks, Aggro...you didn't let me down. As Will Smith shouts in "Independance Day", "I gotta get me one of these!"
I figure I'll run flex with 220" radius curves in HO around my garden...it should work.
selector wrote: Aggro, I know you can link me to a pick of a 4-12-12-4 or whatever that Russkie behemoth is...I mean, if anybody could, it would be you.....tell me I'm right.Sorry, Ken et al, I'm adrift, but I had to ask.
Aggro, I know you can link me to a pick of a 4-12-12-4 or whatever that Russkie behemoth is...I mean, if anybody could, it would be you.....tell me I'm right.
Sorry, Ken et al, I'm adrift, but I had to ask.
This?
Safety Valve wrote: SteamFreak wrote: Safety Valve wrote:Well, the Proto 2-10-2 Heavy has SO much slop in all the wheels it worries me; I have no doubt that I can jam the thing through number 4 switches but wont do it.Five coupled sets of drivers is pushing it with trainset curves. Does the play affect the running qualities at all? Those Protos are supposed to be excellent performers.I dont do trainset curves.
SteamFreak wrote: Safety Valve wrote:Well, the Proto 2-10-2 Heavy has SO much slop in all the wheels it worries me; I have no doubt that I can jam the thing through number 4 switches but wont do it.Five coupled sets of drivers is pushing it with trainset curves. Does the play affect the running qualities at all? Those Protos are supposed to be excellent performers.
Safety Valve wrote:Well, the Proto 2-10-2 Heavy has SO much slop in all the wheels it worries me; I have no doubt that I can jam the thing through number 4 switches but wont do it.
Five coupled sets of drivers is pushing it with trainset curves. Does the play affect the running qualities at all? Those Protos are supposed to be excellent performers.
I dont do trainset curves.
I realize that, but you're right - beginners still use them and manufacturers are going to try and maximize their market. I was wondering if there were any compromises made, though. For example, I bought one of those Bachamnn Plus Northerns in the early nineties, and they had a lot of lateral play. The frame was narrow, so the engine would drift from side to side on straight track. Most I've seen since have the end drivers fixed, and the center sets have the play.
I dont do trainset curves. The engine is one of the best runners in my fleet. Im just pointing out that perhaps maufactors may have decided to loosen (Literally) standards to get as many sales as possible.
AggroJones wrote: SteamFreak wrote: AggroJones wrote: unionpacificchuck wrote: Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will. Hmmm. M'kay boy.... What was the number of the only Big Boy ever to be fired by oil?4005, and unsuccessfully at that. They were never able to heat the firebox evenly. Right. but I was asking the kid claiming his "UP skills" are superior.
SteamFreak wrote: AggroJones wrote: unionpacificchuck wrote: Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will. Hmmm. M'kay boy.... What was the number of the only Big Boy ever to be fired by oil?4005, and unsuccessfully at that. They were never able to heat the firebox evenly.
AggroJones wrote: unionpacificchuck wrote: Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will. Hmmm. M'kay boy.... What was the number of the only Big Boy ever to be fired by oil?
unionpacificchuck wrote: Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will.
Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will.
Hmmm. M'kay boy.... What was the number of the only Big Boy ever to be fired by oil?
4005, and unsuccessfully at that. They were never able to heat the firebox evenly.
Right. but I was asking the kid claiming his "UP skills" are superior.
I know. I couldn't help myself.
Granted, the wider the curve, the better it's going to perform, but I have a number of long wheelbase locos with enough articulation and lateral driver play that they can glide through sharp curves without breaking a sweat. Ken has stated numerous times that his first BB had no problem with 18", and that this one is derailing on larger radii only, which suggests something is interfering with the travel of the front engine or lead truck. I ran my old Rossi Big Boy on trainset curves when I was a kid without any problem or undue wear. That was 1960's technology. Unless a manufacturer makes the rear engine rigid or restrains the articulation with greater detail, it should cope just fine.
But more back on topic. A few people state running the worlds largest steamer on sharp train set type curves. Sorry, it still straining the hell out of the engine. even if you say they can handle it with no problem. I've operated a stable of large steam, plenty of experience. Properly lubricated too, a 4000 still has a hard time. I've done the test. Watched the amp meter needle dancing during the attept to send a Big Boy around 24". The sharper the curve, the more likelyhood for problems.