Big Beast,The difference in having a building or not is that there are many informal social clubs or groups that meet in people's houses, at restaurants, etc. that are tailored to be a truly social organization. These sorts attract the more sociable amongst us, as who would want to invite unsociable people into your own living room for coffee, tea, or beer?
If a club has a building, they have to be at least a little more formal because they have to pay the rent (or whatever). A more formal club can have those that are not as sociable as members, as the other folks will put up with them so as to pay the rent (sad, but true). That's what I meant about there being a difference.
As for fishing, you also have fisherman who would tell you that the fishing's terrible just to make sure you didn't "take" one of their potential fish.
When I asked if it was you, it was to point out that there's often more than one side to these things. It's like the ballplayer that signs 100 autographs until his hand is numb, but when he leaves, the 101st fan will be ticked, and call a sports talk station and lambaste the player for ruining his kid's life because he didn't sign his ball.
My point is that there are many "disappointed with Club X's behavior" threads and posts on the internet, but it's not always the club that displayed bad behavior.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Big Beast wrote: I was in 3 Rocket clubs in my youth with lots of people with various ages. Rarely did I run into a *** as I like to call them. One did have it's own building they leased for projects and such. However to bring first question to a fine point. should it matter if a club has it's own building? Look at people who love fishing. Could that be considerd a hobby? I would think so Although some consider it a sport.. I have been doing that for yrs and very very rarely do I run into any pricks. 90% of the time if you ask are they biting you will get a prompt answer. Most times they will even tell you what bait is working and what is not. I certainly hope it is not me. I have walked into many clubs will say Hi only maybe 70% of the time I will get a hello. The reason I bring this up is with rising gas prices. Some people who wish to join a club have extremely limited choices on a club to join. People in this hobby really need to lighten up. With prices for this hobby going through the roof. they are only rushing along a dying breed.
I was in 3 Rocket clubs in my youth with lots of people with various ages. Rarely did I run into a *** as I like to call them. One did have it's own building they leased for projects and such. However to bring first question to a fine point. should it matter if a club has it's own building?
Look at people who love fishing. Could that be considerd a hobby? I would think so Although some consider it a sport.. I have been doing that for yrs and very very rarely do I run into any pricks. 90% of the time if you ask are they biting you will get a prompt answer. Most times they will even tell you what bait is working and what is not.
I certainly hope it is not me. I have walked into many clubs will say Hi only maybe 70% of the time I will get a hello. The reason I bring this up is with rising gas prices. Some people who wish to join a club have extremely limited choices on a club to join. People in this hobby really need to lighten up. With prices for this hobby going through the roof. they are only rushing along a dying breed.
The last trains show I went to in Pine Bluff was packed wall to wall with people. Hardly a dying breed. Once in a while a customer will be asking questions like is this Atlas track any good while trying to get into the hobby. I usually keep my opinonated big mouth shut and let the store keep deal with the customer. Both stores I go to understand the customer's needs and they do a good job taking care of that new customer.
But the experience of a customer getting into model railroading as a new hobby with all the possibilities is a very wonderful day in any hobby shop.
Will that person be in the hobby a year from now? Depends on their ability to learn and work with good quality products while avoiding the junk. There are alot of other things they can do like buy an expensive boat and fishing gear and go to the lake.
Know what? I have to agree with Da Beast here. Heaven knows that most model railroaders I know are perfectly sociable, pleasant folks, but I must say that I run into far more... let's say surly... people in this hobby than in any other I engage in (and among these I include competitive sports such as soccer and running)).
A few years ago, I might have said that stamp collecting (another of my pastimes) was populated with just as many grouches as our hobby, but I have seen a remarkable change over the last ten years or so in the way philatelists of all ages deal with one another and, most importantly, with newbies and young people. My kids have come to enjoy stamp collecting, a hobby that is even harder for teens to relate to than model railroading, largely because of the help and encouragement they've received from experienced collectors at stamp shows.
Juan
Big Beast wrote:I do not know if it is the area I live in or just common in this type of hobby. I have noticed sometimes when walking into clubs you get this sense of being ignored. Me and a few freinds have noticed this more often in this hobby then any other. Why?
Don't feel rained on... I got into Cowboy Action Shooting about three years ago, and at first it was a lot of fun. Then one day I noticed that everyone had all of a sudden turned real cold toward me. At first I didn't let on or say anything, then one day I wasn't in the best of moods and came out and asked one of the other members what was going on. He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting. That was the end of it for me, and I haven't been back since. I even sold all of my cowboy guns, and used the money to buy train items with - which is what I should have done in the first place...
Tracklayer
Tracklayer wrote: ...He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting...Tracklayer
...He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting...
Aaah, the politics of envy. Still, you have to give the guy credit for spilling the beans honestly...ya gotta give him that much.
I'll try a mini-dissertation here. Over time, any organization adopts a flavour, for want of a better word, and that flavour is a confluence of attitudes, charisma in one or two people (often unofficial elders or leaders, infleuntial people, in the group), limitations caused by necessity, and so on. Over time, the group that remains, that can stick it out and adapt, will have a mini-culture that they come to view as theirs to protect. They are gate keepers.
When a new person enters the setting, and unknown if you will, that person can be a real threat to a group that has nutured and sustained a protectionist form, or a proprietary form, of modeling and operations. If that group, severally, comprises weak characters or personalities, those whose indentity (ego) is largely tied to what they have come to accept and view as "successful and masterful accomplishment" in their hobby, they will feel threatened by an interloper. They will actively resist when someone new begins to impose, or to suggest, a change in "ways of doing what they do the way they do it, and why they do it."
Simply, the atmosphere or culture of the organization is the result of hundreds of accepted changes by those who are actually present the first time you meet them...with the odd variation, of course. You may simply not be very welcome if the group has a practise of being rigid and have learned, collectively, to keep a straight arm between themselves and would-be newbies to the group. So, if you want into such a group, then you must begin a lengthy negotiation with them, a dance of sorts, and get them to accept you. Then, if you still feel a distinctive need to change the group when you have their acceptance, you can begin to get their support as a leader and get them working with/for you.
It won't happen in the first year.
I dont know anything about the pretty boy stuff. But I have seen cases where truckers have paid 4000 dollars for Chrome and later discovered over the phone long distance because thier kid is sick and need medicine for 300 dollars. I dont know.
I have seen one or two people in Living History (Civil war) where alot of money is spent on the uniform and equiptment. To the public that Rifleman wearing a expensive outfit looks just like another one who may be wearing home spun at 100 yards during a battle demonstration. But to the others inside the Infantry company who are in close proximity to the one who is spending alot of money.. well.. there probably is some tension.
I have stood in line of battle wearing second hand materials and holding a borrowed rifle. I did not look any different than the one next to me who has a weapon that is orginal and is maintained very well and wearing hundreds of dollars in costume for a specific Officer or soldier that actually existed in history.
Trains is expensive too. But it is a activity where you can do it by yourself or you can share a little bit with others who are of the same feather as they say. All are welcome, regardless if they make minimum wage part time or enjoy a multi million income from bank interest. Let's just focus on running trains and teach each other things that are useful.
Hmm. I'll toss another one in. I also do a bit of electronics and radio hobbying. The people in the main short-wave radio store here are about as much help as gravestones at a wedding. I have to ask for service; and never mind advice - they point to a book on the wall. Even after I bought a $600 short-wave receiver and a few magazines from them.
Funny thing, they are all in my age group. So it can't be that.
PBoiler, thanks for saying that! When ever or where ever I go railfanning, NO ONE talks! Its pretty sad, I usually see atleast 2 or 3 railfans a day, and rarely do they even say hi. And yes, a lot of "wierd" people like trains, seems like a lot of people who have some disability love them. It kind of bothers me how our hobby attracts introverts more than anything. I have a few good friends (all older, and most work on the railroad) that I go to slide shows with, and they seem like the only people who talk. Anyone Ive met when railfanning, ive came up to them, not once has someone introduced themselves to me. Im 15 by the way, so I can feel these 17 year olds pain also. Oh well I guess, right?
Alec
Midnight Railroader wrote: PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-MikeMaybe they/we are attracted to this hobby precisely because--unlike, say, bowling--it does not require interaction with others.
PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-Mike
To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.
-Mike
I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING THERE...
tracklayer said,"He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting. That was the end of it for me, and I haven't been back since. I even sold"
Uhhhh, tracklayer, Uhhh I been meanin to talk to you about that new conductor outfit you been wearin lately ,Uhhh
Well,I also race 1/24th and 1/32nd slot cars..I will tell you very little about making your car go faster..I love to fish..Think I will tell you exactly where my "honey hole" is? Guess again.I might send you to one of my old fishin' hole but,not where I am currently catching fish.
Think charter boat captains will tell you where the fish are baiting? Same for bass and walleye fishermen.No way.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
engineerjoey wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-MikeMaybe they/we are attracted to this hobby precisely because--unlike, say, bowling--it does not require interaction with others. I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING THERE...
Unfortunately, I've noticed that too. Many, but not all people at LHSs, train meets or other modeling venues seem to be either grouchy men adorned with zillions of articles of railroadania or socially inept introverts. When you try to either introduce yourself or ask questions pertaining to trains (heaven forbid you try to talk about any other subject), you either get a rude brush-off or a look like you just came from Alpha Centauri. Although I'm somewhat of a loner, I DO have many other interests and engage in other activities with others besides model railroading. I realize not everyone fits this stereotype but I believe this kind of behavior, besides being inexcusable, fosters the negative reputation others have about our hobby and the people who enjoy it. I believe there are many closeted model railroaders who truly love and are open about the hobby but are turned off by these negative stereotypes. Because of this they avoid the so-called model railroading "social" scene, hence, they are not counted in polls pertaining to model railroaders (sort of like me).
myred02 wrote: I feel your pain. I'm 17 and I feel like I don't get taken seriously enough. For instance, my friend and I (he also happens to be 17, at least for another month...) have been out railfanning on many occasions when the local police shows up and asks us what we're doing. Being on public property, we would honestly say "We're trainwatching!" Usually, the officer looks at us with disbelief and then tells us to "mind ourselves". With that, he usually takes his leave.I know he's just doing his job, though. I mean, what would you think if you saw a couple of teenagers hanging around the tracks? -Brandon
I feel your pain. I'm 17 and I feel like I don't get taken seriously enough. For instance, my friend and I (he also happens to be 17, at least for another month...) have been out railfanning on many occasions when the local police shows up and asks us what we're doing. Being on public property, we would honestly say "We're trainwatching!" Usually, the officer looks at us with disbelief and then tells us to "mind ourselves". With that, he usually takes his leave.
I know he's just doing his job, though. I mean, what would you think if you saw a couple of teenagers hanging around the tracks?
-Brandon
I'm 14 and have been trainwatching a number of times when the cops go by. Up here they leave you alone just as long as you don't get too close to the tracks.
As for being leftout. It's like that day in and Day out at school, all because I like trains and want to become an engineer working for a railroad in Northern Maine.
on30francisco wrote: engineerjoey wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-MikeMaybe they/we are attracted to this hobby precisely because--unlike, say, bowling--it does not require interaction with others. I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING THERE...Unfortunately, I've noticed that too. Many, but not all people at LHSs, train meets or other modeling venues seem to be either grouchy men adorned with zillions of articles of railroadania or socially inept introverts. When you try to either introduce yourself or ask questions pertaining to trains (heaven forbid you try to talk about any other subject), you either get a rude brush-off or a look like you just came from Alpha Centauri. Although I'm somewhat of a loner, I DO have many other interests and engage in other activities with others besides model railroading.I realize not everyone fits this stereotype.
Unfortunately, I've noticed that too. Many, but not all people at LHSs, train meets or other modeling venues seem to be either grouchy men adorned with zillions of articles of railroadania or socially inept introverts. When you try to either introduce yourself or ask questions pertaining to trains (heaven forbid you try to talk about any other subject), you either get a rude brush-off or a look like you just came from Alpha Centauri. Although I'm somewhat of a loner, I DO have many other interests and engage in other activities with others besides model railroading.I realize not everyone fits this stereotype.
I think you sum it up best when you said "Although I'm somewhat of a loner"..Sadly I find most loners stand offish and quite rude when spoken to.
As far as rude maybe your body language was not the best.Been there as well and had to learn what parts body language plays in meeting new people..I was told by my late wife she was drawn to me by my "lost look".She said I looked lost,timid and like a loner when I walked into the room.Of course my speech is slightly impaired and I sound like I am from Brooklyn with a Cajun drawl.I learn to over come that problem socially as well.
As a former loner I came to realize those sad but,true facts as well it wasn't them as much as it was me at times.
I have learned that it is best to take things into one's own hands when wanting something from others, even if it is acceptance into a circle or merely information. Eye contact is forthright and is moderately aggressive, but it engages the other person...and humanizes you. Avoiding eye contact because you are submissive, shy, insecure, whatever, will send messages that make others uncomfortable.
Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening." The ball lunges across the low net and is heading straight between their collective eyes. They flinch, duck, or they whack it back at you...it's up to them on their side of the net.
Nine times out of ten, they'll give you a reply like, "Sure, c'mon over." Or, it'll be, "Do you have any trains, a layout yourself?" They'll say something that will tell you they acknowledge your request to be included, and that you know it is their decision to make...not yours. They won't feel so threatened, and will probably warm up to you quickly. Don't come across as a smart a.s.s., don't monopolize the converstation, learn that one or two well chosen questions can get them eager to explain things to you. Few folks don't like talking about themselves or their hobbies.
Communications comes in many disguises, and it is only half as effective when it is one-sided. Politeness, inquisitiveness, a willingness to listen mostly and to talk only when necessary, active listening (nodding, giving the occasional "mhmm", eye contact, rephrasing or restating what you have heard in other words to convince them you really are trying to understand what they tell you, and so on), they will help the others to warm up to you.
You only get contact initiated solely by the other person in a restaurant or in a place of sales. Even then, you must present yourself first so that they can acknowledge you and begin to serve you.
selector wrote:Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening."
Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening."
Okay, I'll try it. But it will be kind of awkward being called Crandell.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
SteamFreak wrote: selector wrote: Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening." Okay, I'll try it. But it will be kind of awkward being called Crandell.
selector wrote: Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening."
...or Bill, or Bob, anything but Sue! (with due regard to Johnny C.)
reklein wrote: tracklayer said,"He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting. That was the end of it for me, and I haven't been back since. I even sold"Uhhhh, tracklayer, Uhhh I been meanin to talk to you about that new conductor outfit you been wearin lately ,Uhhh
Now, now reklein. Let's leave my conductor's outfit out of it!.
Actually, I think the real reason those guys acted the way they did toward me was because I'm single and was talking to some of their wives a little more than I should have been (?).
As several of you have said, and I paraphrase, this is the human condition. I have noticed when i have joined a new organization, the same thing has happened to me. I joined two different Boy Scout troops over the years with my sons and could see a "good old boys" club among the adults in the troops. However, as time when on, i was accepted. It took getting involved with the troops and contributing something.
The Boy Scout troop I am currently involved with recognizes this behavior. We have discussed at Troop Committee meetings this stuff and have vowed to warmly greet any visitors at our troop functions. This shows Scout Spirit and what we are suppose to be made of. But, because of this "human condition", we have to discuss the problem and make that effort to overcome ignoring any visitors.
As for train shows, the majority of everyone I talk to is friendly and has helpful advice to my questions.
Ever take a Meyers-Briggs personality test? It's fun. They define an introvert as someone who gets their energy by being alone and doing things alone, and an extrovert who is energized by being around people.
Yours In Model Railroading,
John
Littleton, CO
I have been presented with a battery of tests in the past for work related duties and I gotta tell you, that paper does NOT tell THEM anything. What it will tell is how you will function against thier rules, policies and situations in the work.
I applied to a computer store some years ago and took one of those "tests" and adopted a very heavy approach to thier questions like zero compliance etc... they never called me LOL. I guess they want people who are sunshine and smiles without regard for actual ability. =)
My way of testing people is a winter storm with a little bit of everything coming across Sandstone in West Virginia. How they hold up under the stress is all I need to know. Some handle it well, others cower in the sleeper sucking thier thumbs.
Safety Valve,
You are correct about those tests and how they are used. I just found it interesting on how that one test defined introverts and extroverts.
Clubs of any sort can be cliquish environments...
on30francisco wrote:a look like you just came from Alpha Centauri.
I could give you several examples of why I think Railroads are getting grumpy.
I set up to Shoot video of UP's Challanger. I was totally alone. About a half mile up from me was another guy shooting video. He turned on his camera and walked all the way down to me and wanted to talk over my video.
I was in Napperville with hundreds of people. As I was shooting video of the train leaving. A PUNK shooting stills walked down off the enbankment and seen me shooting. He stopped right in front of me. He knew what he was doing because he got the big smerk on his face.
I was attending a GR convention in Seattle Wa. I was in a person's big yard shooting video of action in the persons switching yard.
Nobody was around where I was. I checked several times to see if I wa blocking anyone. It was clean.
A man walked 1 foot in front of my lens and began shooting over my back. When I looked behind NObody was there. When I asked the guy why he got infront of me instead of behind me. He said I was in his place. I had no right to occupy one place for so long.
Last week end. I was standing on the platform shooting video during the RR days in Rochelle Il. A man and his two kids walked out to the end of the walk way. Then he walked exactly under my camera.
Great he was out of everyone way. Now he began telling his kids where to stand for his shots and all about the trains.
I attempt to give everyone there due. I attempt to respect everyone right to return with outstanding photos.
Now I flatly tell someone to shutup or get out of my way.
Having read through this thread, let me offer my take.
My first point is the occasional "cliquishness" or coldness of some model railroaders as absolutely not exclusive to our hobby. I'm also into Civil War reenacting, golf, and general aviation, and all of these hobbies have various "cliquey" elements. There are also plenty of really good people in all of these hobbies.
My other point:
I've shown my layout at a number of shows. Now, I'm as friendly as I can be because I really do enjoy talking to people and inspiring them to join our hobby. But, especially during those 2-day shows, some things start to break me down. They are:
1. Really, really, really stupid questions from adults who ought to know better.
2. Kids (most of whom are old enough to know better) who touch everything, in spite of signage to the contrary.
3. Parents who don't control said kids. Before you say it, I'll answer: I have a 4 and a 2 year-old, and I do control them at shows. They have a healthy respect for my home layout as well.
4. Getting asked the same mundane questions by everyone (i.e., "How fast can those trains go?" or "Who built this for you?" as if I couldn't possibly have done it myself).
5. Standing for 8+ hours straight. Unlike some exhibitors, I refuse to address a standing visitor from the seated position. It would be rude of me. So I stand.
6. The super nit-picker (who will invariably admit, when pressed, that he has no layout of his own).
Now, 95% of the time, my interactions with the public are very positive, and I really do enjoy the process, and look forward to it. But, my point is that some people don't handle the aforementioned stresses as well, and for all you know, you may have caught the club members after one of the above issues.
That does not ever excuse rudeness, but it might explain why some club members might be acting in what is otherwise an unusual way for them.
Here's me enjoying some time with a visitor, who is being a very good spectator in that she is preventing her young one from dismantling my layout. As I said, the vast majority of my interactions are very positive, and I enjoy shows very much. Some people may not enjoy it as much, or are more apt to cave to the stresses of a public show.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave,I can FULLY UNDERSTAND what you are saying..After several (hundreds?) of open houses at the various clubs I been a member of I think I seen it all or very near of seeing it all to include adults with touchy feely fingers.
Why is it adults can ask hairball questions like
"Did you guys build all of this?"
From a old lady "Do you put this train set away every night?"
Do you guys ever wreck your trains for fun?
Do you ever race your trains?
Who has the fastest train set here?
No kidding..I have been ask those questions by ADULTS!
I have found most teenagers and young adults will ask intelligent questions and have some very nice comments.
Of course there is always the young lady with a kid or two in tow that will say"See that locomotive? Thats the type your Grandfather drove.