Using real water

[BATMAN]

Has anyone had experience using real water in a harbour scene? I would think it would look like a neglected aquarium after a whil

[beegle55]

I've thought about it, and it has its pro's and con's. If you could find a filter and rig up a system that moved the water without creating too turbulent of water, it could work. You would have to have some way to keep the water fresh and to keep it from evaporating.

 -beegle55

[LudwigVonDrake]

I saw a layout recently with a river and a small waterfall (about an inch). My first reaction was 'wow' and then 'ugh' as on closer inspection you could see the mold that had formed along the banks of the river.

[Dave Vollmer]

This question comes up from time to time.

Although some have gotten it to work, most will agree that it's logistically very difficult and the visual returns are usually not worth it.

Cons:

1.  Water plus electrical equals bad.  Dripping onto electrical components could be a shocking experience.  And forget a locomotive that derails into it, especially if it has a PC board in it.

2.  Water will damage scenery unless extreme steps are taken to seal it.  It will disolve plaster, Sculptamold, and the like.

3.  It evaporates.  You'll have to keep replacing it.

4.  Stuff grows in and around it.  Stuff you don't want (mold, algae, etc.).

5.  It just doesn't look right.  It lies too flat, it's too clear, and the surface tension will give it away where it contacts the shore, bridge piers, dock pilings, and boats.

Pros:

You can tell people "Hey, it's real water!"

That's all I've got!

[BATMAN]

The reason I am asking is I saw an HO scale barge being loaded and unloaded and the barge would list to the side as this happened. It looked so real but I sure wondered about water maintenance. Maybe lots of bleach would help.

[Dave Vollmer]

I think bleach might add to your troubles (i.e., changing the color of the scenery and boats, fumes, etc.).

I don't mean to be the voice of doom, and it can be done...  I just wouldn't do it myself!

[MAbruce]

Has anyone had experience using real water in a harbour scene? I would think it would look like a neglected aquarium after a whil

Not only that (and the other issues that Dave already brought up), real water isn't going to look to 'scale'.  In other words, it's going to come out looking like one of those cheap 'B' movie Godzilla-like special effects. 

[dti406]

Also, don't forget the weight of the water means extra bracing to support the tank that would be used in the harbor scene.  Also the tank/basis would have to be water proofed to stop any leakage.

John Allen planned to use real water for the Port facility and changed his mind for the above reasons. Also he did use real water in Squawbottom Creek with the results mentioned in the above posts. 

Rick 

 

 

[SteamFreak]

Adding to all of the above, your benchwork had better be bolted to poured concrete, because one good bump and your harbor is going to turn into a tsunami. Unless you're modeling Anchorage, Alaska in 1964 I wouldn't recommend it.

[Anonymous]

It is very easy to achive the water effects and keep the water flowing.  All you need to buy is a little water therapy fountain for $10-15 remove the pump and use that for making the water flow down a river.  It is so easy I did it myself.  I didnt keep it because I was too lazy to keep it full and it stayed dried more than wet.  However when done it looked real great!  It flowed very nicely and people loved that he most on my layout. 

[Anonymous]

The reason I am asking is I saw an HO scale barge being loaded and unloaded and the barge would list to the side as this happened. It looked so real but I sure wondered about water maintenance. Maybe lots of bleach would help.

 I think real water would be best used for a garden railroad. It look more in place there.

[Railfan1]

I had always wondered about this too.

[Anonymous]

BAD. IDEA. BAD.

I can see the insurance company's statement "Pre-exisiting danger of electrocution"

[bogp40]

Besides all the cons listed above, real water just doesn't scale right, especially in HO and N.

[IRONROOSTER]

Personally, I wouldn't want the extra humidity.  I have had problems in the past and I have finally solved them.

Enjoy

Paul 

[NevinW]

It has definitely been done.  There was a HOn3 narrow gauge layout that was shown in MR in the 60's and pictures of it showed up again in the Short Line and Narrow Gauge Gazette in the 90's (I think!).  It had a concrete basin to hold the water and featured a riverboat-type craft that traveled up and down the river on a track hidden by the water.  The water was colored to hide the track.  The whole thing was very well done but somewhat of a mystery in that they had pictures of it but very little other information about who, what, when, and why it was built.

Perhaps someone else can remember what issue it was in and provide more information about it.  It was a striking layout and very advanced for its time. If I was seriously thinking about adding real water to a layout, I would find that article.  -  Nevin

[tomikawaTT]

It can be done, because it has been done - which is how all the problems Dave Vollmer listed were discovered (along with a bunch more he didn't mention.)

If the real object is to make a car float move prototypically as it's loaded, that can be done without getting anything wet.  Just mount the deck on some really soft springs (diamond pattern, centered on the sides and ends) and hide the overlapping joint with the rubbing strip and fenders.  Should still be a comment magnet, without several hundred dollars//hours of hassle.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[pcarrell]

Bad idea all around!

So many reasons not to do it, many of them listed here, many not, and only one reason to do it?  Thats not good reasoning.

Besides, where there's water there's critters. 

The wife tolerates the layout now.  I don't need to give her reason to rethink that!  Critters, mold, and all of the other nasties that go with it would probably lead to that kind of thinking.

[perry1060]

I think many folks are using resin for their water, and from all the pictures I've seen on this forum...it works great. You can create ripples, color, and any other aspect of water without the mess of the real thing.

 

 

 

 

[Dallas Model Works]

I saw real water used on a stream on a layout at the WGH show in Fort Worth 6 or 7 weeks ago. It looked pretty good. There was just enough water to flow over top of some sculpted Magic Water (or whatever) -- just enought to add movement and sparkle.

 I can't see using real water for large, still bodies such as a bay or pond, though.

As for critters, some pool or aquarium chemicals ought to take care of that.

[selector]

For me, the main thing would be that water in nature is not really clear...it is generally turbid and looks coloured.  It only reflects blue or clouds when the angle viewed is low.

Apart from that, real water doesn't move at a scale 80 km/hr downstream.  On your layout, though, that is just what it will do...to scale.  Since you have not scaled the real-world material, it will keep its real-world properties, including the way if flows.  Once it breaks surface tension over the lip of a dam or over the edge of a rock pool, whatever, it will flow so quickly that it will not be realistic.

That is my view.

[R. T. POTEET]

Perchance this very subject reared its head in one of the first periodicals I purchased when I was new to the hobby back in the early '60s.  I have avoided it like I would avoid the REAL plague!!!

REAL water is great; it goes right along with REAL mosquitos, REAL algae, REAL mud - thats what the REAL surface becomes when REAL dust settles atop it; you have never had a REAL experience until you have attempted vacuuming REAL dust from the REAL surface of REAL water!  Most people who have tried REAL water will tell you that it is a REAL way to come down with a REAL headache.

My REAL advice: use REAL envirotex® - or something REAL similiar. (I know; that should be "REALly similiar" but my REAL poetic license has been suspended.)

It has been a REAL pleasure responding to this REAL topic!!!!

  

[BATMAN]

Okay forget the real water I really like the spring idea.
To the BATCAVE! umm I mean trainroom.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

It's been my experience that in small quantities, water just doesn't look like water.

[Texas Zepher]

real water isn't going to look to 'scale'.  In other words, it's going to come out looking like one of those cheap 'B' movie Godzilla-like special effects.

Not just 'B' movies.  I can always tell when models were used for ship battle scenes.  The waves are all wrong, and if anything splatters (like a shell hitting close by) it is a sure give away.  Also flood scenes.  Just watch how the water splashes and one can immediately tell it was a small mock up with a garden hose or a 55 gallon barrel dumped over it.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

real water isn't going to look to 'scale'.  In other words, it's going to come out looking like one of those cheap 'B' movie Godzilla-like special effects.

Not just 'B' movies.  I can always tell when models were used for ship battle scenes.  The waves are all wrong, and if anything splatters (like a shell hitting close by) it is a sure give away.  Also flood scenes.  Just watch how the water splashes and one can immediately tell it was a small mock up with a garden hose or a 55 gallon barrel dumped over it.

The movie "Earthquake" from the 70's springs to mind.

[HHPATH56]

Hi,  Real water seems to be a no! no! idea for many reasons. I would like to add one other reason as to why real water is not a good idea.  I used Water Magic resin on my sawmill pond complex, because in addition to all the listed reasons, a quarter inch of tinted resin poured in the (painted bottom, leakproof) pond, was transluscent enough to show the lower portions of the semi-submerged logs, which appears very realistic. To maintain the proper depth of real water would be impossible. I have never seen an HO scale layout with real water on a waterfall that could even begin to compare to the white cascading water made of resin.  Once I had a waterfall made with plastic strips on a revolving double cylinder, but at best, it wasn't realistic.  The idea of using springs below the barge sounds good. Just be sure that the barge is free to tilt when the resin water hardens.  I would suggest that you use a barge, the same size as a platic box cover, as a permanent restraining mold. Before glueing it to the bottom, trim it down to the desired height of the top of the poured "resin water".) For springs, I would suggest that you use four V shaped strips of springy plastics (or strap iron)  Bob                

[Dallas Model Works]

I totally agree with the water + models giveaway that one sees in movies. Still, the flowing water I saw at the WGH show in Fort Worth looked pretty good.

[easyaces]

It might be ok if the right precautions are used, but then again, to much of a hassle to maintain it. Think I'll stick to resin!

[jecorbett]

Nothing looks less like real water than real water. I read that in a scenery book when I was a newbie and nothing in the past 30 years has led me to think otherwise. There are a whole slew of problems with using real water and I can't think of a single benefit.