Using real water

[CNCharlie]

I agree with others that it will not look realistic.

I used to be very involved in sailing and had a decent sized boat. I also had a radio controlled model sailboat that was about 18" long. It did work well but never looked realistic going through the water. It always looked like a toy. The viscosity of the water was too 'thick' for it too look real. There is a big difference between a 1 lb. boat going through the water to a 3 ton boat. 

CN Charlie

[mbinsewi]

Since GT Mills reopened this thread, I guess we'll have to wait for him to "report back" as he says in his post, as he offers a brief description of what he's doing.

I guess we'll see. maybe.

Mike.

[selector]

After all of this, I'd actually encourage a doubting reader to give it a shot.  Please come back in three months and tell us how it went. 

[bearman]

Don't do it. 

You will be spending a lot of time adding make up water because of evaporation.  And, you will have to keep the water moving to prevent any kind of algae growth along with some sort of disinfectant.  And, if you have hard water or water that has a lot of dissolved solids, like here in Phoenix, there will eventualy be a white crust along the banks.  When you get tired of the white crust, you will have to empty out all the water and somehow remove that crust.

Believe me, don't do it.  In a previous life I was a water resources and water quality engineer.  I may not know a lot about a lot of things, but I do know a lot about water and water quality.

[Tinplate Toddler]

richhotrain

I use real water in my bathtub layout! 

Rich

 

Rub-dub in the tub!

 

[richhotrain]

I use real water in my bathtub layout! 

Rich

[Tinplate Toddler]

mbinsewi

Dish soap works by making the water wetter, or thinner

How to prevent that stuff from foaming?

No chance!

[mbinsewi]

I would think to get the water to "scale" better, you need it "wetter", like what we do for setting scenery and ballast.

Dish soap works by making the water wetter, or thinner.  Could you see that?    Like using regular dish soap in the dish washer.  Don't ask me how I know about that.

I never wanted to try it.

The wife had a windmill yard decoration thing on the back patio that used water, and it was a pain to maintain.  Of course we have a lot of lime in our city water supply, so that makes it all worse.

Mike.

[xboxtravis7992]

BATMAN

The reason I am asking is I saw an HO scale barge being loaded and unloaded and the barge would list to the side as this happened. It looked so real but I sure wondered about water maintenance. Maybe lots of bleach would help.

 

Maybe bromine could be an option. Its what they use to treat water at theme parks and is generally less caustic than chlorine based additives.

Still overall, it probably wouldn't be super practical. For a small show stream or waterfall maybe it could be done like a small indoor fountain, but a large river or harbor would just be a lot of work to maintain. 

[Tinplate Toddler]

Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg/Germany probably has the largest water feature on an HO scale layout there is in the world, holding over 30 (!) tons of water. They spent an enormous amount of time and money to make it look like the real thing, I am afraid to say they did not succeed. It sounds like a pardoxon, but nothing looks more unrealistic than real water. You just cannot scale down its properties. Even large ships look like a rubber duck floating in a bathtub. Worse than that, you´ll be able to see through it down to the ground, Any attempt to color it failed.

But see for yourself.

 

[GT Mills]

 

My wife and I had a home and graden shop in the 90’s, and one of the things I got pretty good at was making table-top water fountains using large, flat bowls, natural rocks, and adjustable flow pumps.  Flow volume is easily adjusted by twisting the outlet valve so you don't wind up with Niagara Falls trying to run through a backyard crik. I have a few pumps left over to play with. 

 

Like the guy above, I have seen real water used very effectively & realistically on the one of the HO display layouts at the Model Train Show in Novi, Michigan back in the good old days.  Though I agree with everything written here about why real water features are a bad idea in general, done right it is awesome.  

 

I am just about finished with the first module of a new 5-module HO layout, and plan to install a real water saw mill sluice and creek feature that runs into a small mill pond on module #3.  I’ll report back to you folks when I get to that part of the build. 

 

Happy railroading,

 

Gerg

 

Modeling the (fictitious) Pere Marquette & Chesapeake.

 

[jecorbett]

Nothing looks less like real water than real water. I read that in a scenery book when I was a newbie and nothing in the past 30 years has led me to think otherwise. There are a whole slew of problems with using real water and I can't think of a single benefit.

[easyaces]

It might be ok if the right precautions are used, but then again, to much of a hassle to maintain it. Think I'll stick to resin!

[Dallas Model Works]

I totally agree with the water + models giveaway that one sees in movies. Still, the flowing water I saw at the WGH show in Fort Worth looked pretty good.

[HHPATH56]

Hi,  Real water seems to be a no! no! idea for many reasons. I would like to add one other reason as to why real water is not a good idea.  I used Water Magic resin on my sawmill pond complex, because in addition to all the listed reasons, a quarter inch of tinted resin poured in the (painted bottom, leakproof) pond, was transluscent enough to show the lower portions of the semi-submerged logs, which appears very realistic. To maintain the proper depth of real water would be impossible. I have never seen an HO scale layout with real water on a waterfall that could even begin to compare to the white cascading water made of resin.  Once I had a waterfall made with plastic strips on a revolving double cylinder, but at best, it wasn't realistic.  The idea of using springs below the barge sounds good. Just be sure that the barge is free to tilt when the resin water hardens.  I would suggest that you use a barge, the same size as a platic box cover, as a permanent restraining mold. Before glueing it to the bottom, trim it down to the desired height of the top of the poured "resin water".) For springs, I would suggest that you use four V shaped strips of springy plastics (or strap iron)  Bob                

[jeffrey-wimberly]

real water isn't going to look to 'scale'.  In other words, it's going to come out looking like one of those cheap 'B' movie Godzilla-like special effects.

Not just 'B' movies.  I can always tell when models were used for ship battle scenes.  The waves are all wrong, and if anything splatters (like a shell hitting close by) it is a sure give away.  Also flood scenes.  Just watch how the water splashes and one can immediately tell it was a small mock up with a garden hose or a 55 gallon barrel dumped over it.

The movie "Earthquake" from the 70's springs to mind.

[Texas Zepher]

real water isn't going to look to 'scale'.  In other words, it's going to come out looking like one of those cheap 'B' movie Godzilla-like special effects.

Not just 'B' movies.  I can always tell when models were used for ship battle scenes.  The waves are all wrong, and if anything splatters (like a shell hitting close by) it is a sure give away.  Also flood scenes.  Just watch how the water splashes and one can immediately tell it was a small mock up with a garden hose or a 55 gallon barrel dumped over it.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

It's been my experience that in small quantities, water just doesn't look like water.

[BATMAN]

Okay forget the real water I really like the spring idea.
To the BATCAVE! umm I mean trainroom.

[R. T. POTEET]

Perchance this very subject reared its head in one of the first periodicals I purchased when I was new to the hobby back in the early '60s.  I have avoided it like I would avoid the REAL plague!!!

REAL water is great; it goes right along with REAL mosquitos, REAL algae, REAL mud - thats what the REAL surface becomes when REAL dust settles atop it; you have never had a REAL experience until you have attempted vacuuming REAL dust from the REAL surface of REAL water!  Most people who have tried REAL water will tell you that it is a REAL way to come down with a REAL headache.

My REAL advice: use REAL envirotex® - or something REAL similiar. (I know; that should be "REALly similiar" but my REAL poetic license has been suspended.)

It has been a REAL pleasure responding to this REAL topic!!!!

  

[selector]

For me, the main thing would be that water in nature is not really clear...it is generally turbid and looks coloured.  It only reflects blue or clouds when the angle viewed is low.

Apart from that, real water doesn't move at a scale 80 km/hr downstream.  On your layout, though, that is just what it will do...to scale.  Since you have not scaled the real-world material, it will keep its real-world properties, including the way if flows.  Once it breaks surface tension over the lip of a dam or over the edge of a rock pool, whatever, it will flow so quickly that it will not be realistic.

That is my view.

[Dallas Model Works]

I saw real water used on a stream on a layout at the WGH show in Fort Worth 6 or 7 weeks ago. It looked pretty good. There was just enough water to flow over top of some sculpted Magic Water (or whatever) -- just enought to add movement and sparkle.

 I can't see using real water for large, still bodies such as a bay or pond, though.

As for critters, some pool or aquarium chemicals ought to take care of that.

[perry1060]

I think many folks are using resin for their water, and from all the pictures I've seen on this forum...it works great. You can create ripples, color, and any other aspect of water without the mess of the real thing.

 

 

 

 

[pcarrell]

Bad idea all around!

So many reasons not to do it, many of them listed here, many not, and only one reason to do it?  Thats not good reasoning.

Besides, where there's water there's critters. 

The wife tolerates the layout now.  I don't need to give her reason to rethink that!  Critters, mold, and all of the other nasties that go with it would probably lead to that kind of thinking.

[tomikawaTT]

It can be done, because it has been done - which is how all the problems Dave Vollmer listed were discovered (along with a bunch more he didn't mention.)

If the real object is to make a car float move prototypically as it's loaded, that can be done without getting anything wet.  Just mount the deck on some really soft springs (diamond pattern, centered on the sides and ends) and hide the overlapping joint with the rubbing strip and fenders.  Should still be a comment magnet, without several hundred dollars//hours of hassle.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[NevinW]

It has definitely been done.  There was a HOn3 narrow gauge layout that was shown in MR in the 60's and pictures of it showed up again in the Short Line and Narrow Gauge Gazette in the 90's (I think!).  It had a concrete basin to hold the water and featured a riverboat-type craft that traveled up and down the river on a track hidden by the water.  The water was colored to hide the track.  The whole thing was very well done but somewhat of a mystery in that they had pictures of it but very little other information about who, what, when, and why it was built.

Perhaps someone else can remember what issue it was in and provide more information about it.  It was a striking layout and very advanced for its time. If I was seriously thinking about adding real water to a layout, I would find that article.  -  Nevin

[IRONROOSTER]

Personally, I wouldn't want the extra humidity.  I have had problems in the past and I have finally solved them.

Enjoy

Paul 

[bogp40]

Besides all the cons listed above, real water just doesn't scale right, especially in HO and N.

[Anonymous]

BAD. IDEA. BAD.

I can see the insurance company's statement "Pre-exisiting danger of electrocution"