Switching layout theory LDE Paydirt p5

[SpaceMouse]

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions.
2) Use a lot of track, have a yard, industry and interchange.

Not a lot of track, something with a lot of traffic on a small amount of track.

I like that better.

Well we are trying to develop theory here.  It is too easy to delve into specifics.  It seems often to be a human trait to take the example "as the thing" instead of the general idea the example was meant to "demonstrate". 

And people want to be helpful. They know a layout design they like, so they make a suggestion.

The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype. I imagine that a lot of it happens by accident, someone sees something cool takes some pictures and says, I'm going to model that.  But when Koester says find a prototype LDE that you like, it reminds me of the Steve Martin joke.

You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes.

Yes, You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes.

But you say, Steve, how can this be?

First, get a million dollars.

 

[Texas Zepher]

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions.
2) Use a lot of track, have a yard, industry and interchange.

Not a lot of track, something with a lot of traffic on a small amount of track.

I like that better.

Well we are trying to develop theory here.  It is too easy to delve into specifics.  It seems often to be a human trait to take the example "as the thing" instead of the general idea the example was meant to "demonstrate". 

[exPalaceDog]

That would be 30 by 72 inches. HO Scale. Sorry.

When all else fails, cheat!

Could you maybe rip the shape in half? A 15" by 144" shape would be easier to use.

Could you say 24" by 48" extensions to the front that could be folded down when the layout is not in use?

For that matter, could the space be used to store a set of modulars on end that could be set up before the session and taken down afterwards?

Have fun

Have you considered a traction layout?

I really don't have space for any kind of permanent layout as eventually, the basement empire will take all the space. What I have is a folding table that has water damage so I thought I would use that.

I did think of using a single lead track on each end that extended 2 feet when the layout was in use, like a removable drill tack.

No traction. I want 1st gen switchers. 

How about car float landing for interchange, large freight terminal, and some team tracks? Maybe add a produce market.

Have fun

 

 

[fwright]

I personally really like the Mower Lumber Company at http://www.carendt.com/articles/secrets/index.html.  Works very well with cassettes for off layout staging (as do most small shelf layouts).

I will probably use an adaptation of it as a layout addition to my HOn3 version of the Gum Stump and Snowshoe.

my thoughts

Fred W

[Anonymous]

30 x 6 = 180 Square somethings.....I am assuming inches because feet would almost be an empire!

Yup...something specific.  KISS.  Its a good rule to live by.  Could be something interesting like a grain elevator row or something boring like a stub-ended station with a run around.

Just a few ideas.

David

 

 

I love kiss! You want the best band in the world you got it! KISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SpaceMouse]

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions.

2) Use a lot of track, have a yard, industry and interchange.

Not a lot of track, something with a lot of traffic on a small amount of track.

I like that better.  

 

[SpaceMouse]

 SpaceMouse - obviously you _can_ try to base a small shelf layout on a real prototype. In a MR magazine a few years ago (I think) there was e.g a very neat double oval track plan of the C&NW and another railroad based on the prototypes near Owatonna in Minnesota. I forget what it was called.  You could do something like a small cutout from a plan like that.

 What area & prototype were you looking for ?

 Stein

PRR Western PA 1st Gen Diesel.

[SpaceMouse]

I am in the process of creating a small switching layout myself. I wanted to make it as simple as possible and this is what I came up with.

I must say that the layout has already turned out be more interesting than I expected and I can keep myself amused switching cars for quite a while!

IT certainly is in the direction I'm looking, though I'd like to find a prototype I can work with.

[SpaceMouse]

MR had an article back in the 90's that had the visible part of the layout as a stage such as a division point where engines are changed, cars set off and picked up for the local switcher, maybe a branch line to a specific industry while the rest of the layout is an oval with multiple staging tracks in order to supply trains to the visible part of the layout. 

This is essentially what I plan to do for my double track PRR layout.

 Rick

I've not seen a pre-95 MR so I have no clue which one that is, but it sounds promising.

[SpaceMouse]

That would be 30 by 72 inches. HO Scale. Sorry.

When all else fails, cheat!

Could you maybe rip the shape in half? A 15" by 144" shape would be easier to use.

Could you say 24" by 48" extensions to the front that could be folded down when the layout is not in use?

For that matter, could the space be used to store a set of modulars on end that could be set up before the session and taken down afterwards?

Have fun

Have you considered a traction layout?

I really don't have space for any kind of permanent layout as eventually, the basement empire will take all the space. What I have is a folding table that has water damage so I thought I would use that.

I thought I would run a loconet cable from the layout for power.

I did think of using a single lead track on each end that extended 2 feet when the layout was in use, like a removable drill tack.

No traction. I want 1st gen switchers. 

 

 

[Texas Zepher]

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions.

2) Use a lot of track, have a yard, industry and interchange.

Not a lot of track, something with a lot of traffic on a small amount of track.

[rxanand]

I am in the process of creating a small switching layout myself. I wanted to make it as simple as possible and this is what I came up with.

I must say that the layout has already turned out be more interesting than I expected and I can keep myself amused switching cars for quite a while!

[dti406]

MR had an article back in the 90's that had the visible part of the layout as a stage such as a division point where engines are changed, cars set off and picked up for the local switcher, maybe a branch line to a specific industry while the rest of the layout is an oval with multiple staging tracks in order to supply trains to the visible part of the layout. 

This is essentially what I plan to do for my double track PRR layout.

 Rick

[exPalaceDog]

That would be 30 by 72 inches. HO Scale. Sorry.

When all else fails, cheat!

Could you maybe rip the shape in half? A 15" by 144" shape would be easier to use.

Could you say 24" by 48" extensions to the front that could be folded down when the layout is not in use?

For that matter, could the space be used to store a set of modulars on end that could be set up before the session and taken down afterwards?

Have fun

Have you considered a traction layout?

 

 

[steinjr]

 Any major flaws in my thinking here ?

G'day Stein, good to hear from you again! I can't see any obvious flaws in your plan - give me a day or so to think about it.

All the best,

Mark.

 God dag (G'day in Norwegian :-) to you too --

 I just got interested in the concept - plus figured it would be neat to get something built quick, so I can enjoy a little switching while working on the "big" layout I want to build in a room that has room for a 6 1/2' x 11 1/2' room.

 My quick little plan is not nearly as neat as some of the stuff e.g. Linda Sand has designed - I really admire some of her work - like the Nicollet Avenue plan from MRP 1998 or the neat little 1"x8" Sherman Paper Co plan she had in MRP 2006.

 SpaceMouse - obviously you _can_ try to base a small shelf layout on a real prototype. In a MR magazine a few years ago (I think) there was e.g a very neat double oval track plan of the C&NW and another railroad based on the prototypes near Owatonna in Minnesota. I forget what it was called.  You could do something like a small cutout from a plan like that.

 What area & prototype were you looking for ?

 Stein

[SpaceMouse]

Mark and Stein, Those layouts look like great little switching layouts.

Thanks, Chip.

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions...These ideas seem to suggest that I need to put car movements first, which makes sense since I stated I wanted interesting operations. From this I gather that there is a balance between a purely prototypical layout and an operational layout. Can't there be both, a really cool prototype that has interesting operational capacity?

I'm not sure I follow you on this. To me there is no conflict or imbalance between prototypical and operational. Can you perhaps expand on this a bit? When you say "really cool prototype", do you mean the entire railroad, or just the track layout for a specific location?

Cheers,

Mark.

Obviously, I'm not intending to put the PRR from Altoona to Harrisburg in 2 meters. However, I am open to some selective compression on a single location. Some of the shelves I've seen represent a interchange, unique trackwork, or an active industrial district. But like I said, I'd rather it was a real place as opposed to freelanced.  

[marknewton]

Mark and Stein, Those layouts look like great little switching layouts.

Thanks, Chip.

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions...These ideas seem to suggest that I need to put car movements first, which makes sense since I stated I wanted interesting operations. From this I gather that there is a balance between a purely prototypical layout and an operational layout. Can't there be both, a really cool prototype that has interesting operational capacity?

I'm not sure I follow you on this. To me there is no conflict or imbalance between prototypical and operational. Can you perhaps expand on this a bit? When you say "really cool prototype", do you mean the entire railroad, or just the track layout for a specific location?

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Neat idea, Mark. I've tried to work up a quick shelf layout based on your plan (and on the classic NYC "Highland Terminal" layout). How about something like this :

 

  Any major flaws in my thinking here ?

G'day Stein, good to hear from you again! I can't see any obvious flaws in your plan - give me a day or so to think about it.

All the best,

Mark.

[SpaceMouse]

You might consider your availible yard capacity in total, and see if you are able to generate adequate train service for the new area.

I'm sorry. I don't understand.

[Anonymous]

You might consider your availible yard capacity in total, and see if you are able to generate adequate train service for the new area.

[SpaceMouse]

Lee,

I have no interest in N -scale. I have plenty of room for my pike, or will have. See below.

Mark and Stein,

Those layouts look like great little switching layouts.

***********************************************************

One of my interests in the hobby is layout design. And over the past couple years, I've seen two or three layouts come through the commenting process in the layouts section that were well thought out, based on prototypical operations, and yet were not covered with track.

You could tell they knew what they were doing because it drew the better layout designers out of the woodwork to comment. The level of sophistication of these layouts was astounding.

So my reasons for doing this.

1) To achieve a high level of sophistication in a small shelf layout.

2) To achieve an interesting layout to operate, that maintains interest, in a small space.

3) I love small 1st gen switchers-S* & SW*. On my new 1885 layout and on the two layouts I operate on, I have no opportunity to run them.

4) I want something totally different to provide a change of pace from 1885. 

5) I want something from around this area my son can relate to.

6) I may pick something totally different than available models and scratch-build everything except the track, figures and cars. 

********************************************************************

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions. Thanks everyone.

1) Figure the track first then find an LDE.

2) Use a lot of track, have a yard, industry and interchange.

3) Model a large/medium industry.

All good ideas. These ideas seem to suggest that I need to put car movements first, which makes sense since I stated I wanted interesting operations.

From this I gather that there is a balance between a purely prototypical layout and an operational layout.

Can't there be both, a really cool prototype that has interesting operational capacity?

If so, how does one go about rooting out the prototype? 

 

  

[steinjr]

The operating concept was that a train would arrive in the runround, the mainline power would cut off and return with the caboose to staging, while the belt-line switcher spotted cars. Through trains could run on the main without interference, while the switcher made up another train for later collection by another mainline loco and caboose. Although intended as a US-prototype module, the trackplan is almost an exact copy of a location I used to shunt at many years ago here in Australia.

  Neat idea, Mark. I've tried to work up a quick shelf layout based on your plan (and on the classic NYC "Highland Terminal" layout). How about something like this :

 

  Any major flaws in my thinking here ?

Smile,
Stein

 

[Anonymous]

I have been debating a foundry complex based on the Walthers Tannery. Not much, but will provide an area hopefully capable of recieving cars and generating a few loads.

In my little world the loop would swing past the foundry and have the option of either stopping to switch it or running. It would be extremely portable and might turn into a transportable set if I do it right.

The switches will all face in the same direction so it is not a frusterating puzzle palace and have no S curves in there. I might run the whole "stuff" off the end of a runaround to open up the other direction.

Very simple stuff. It might even be a town with all the trimmings if it ever finds a pernament home.

[wm3798]

I like the idea of developing a design based on something that you want to incorporate into your "final system plan" (whenever and whatever that might be...)  I've done that as my layout progresses, and it's really made a big difference in how the overall plan was designed.

For western PA, I would think that something related to, but not as behemoth as the steel industry might do the trick.  Either that or paper making.  Recently there was a good article on building a fairly large paper industry in a small space... I believe the scale was N, but the space was only about 2 x 4' or something.  You could easily translate that into something in HO.

Similarly, I have a 1999 MR with an article by Paul Dolkos about working a paper mill scene into a small section of his B&M layout, keeping the sidings on the layout, while the large processing buildings were off in the 5th dimension.

I don't want to start the flames a-throwin', but you might consider downsizing your scale which will allow you to upscale your space.  There are zillions of great layouts designed in this kind of space for N scale.  Your research would no doubt provide you with enough design elements to put together something that is uniquely yours.

My paper mill includes 4 major structures, a pulp yard, a fiddle yard and two long sidings all in 36" x about 48".  There are also two main line routes that converge in the scene, providing lots of opportunities for interesting switching puzzles.  Typically I can switch between 20 and 50 cars in an evening, and with a visiting operator joining me, well over a 100 cars can be processed.  (This is possible with the rest of the somewhat larger layout, but you get the idea...)

Plus, the newest N scale equipment is great looking, DCC is available right out of the box, and if you were born with two left hands and all thumbs, you can use Unitrak to make your trackwork bulletproof.

I guess what I'm saying is, if your space is truly limited, don't limit your options to get the most out of it.

Lee 

[marknewton]

I like Texas Zepher's suggestions - I'd add two more and suggest a large freight house or produce terminal. Either "industry" can have multiple spots which require frequent switching.

I've posted a very rough sketch of a switching module I built some years back for an exhibition, which may give you some ideas. The main industry was a produce terminal with a separate siding for the boiler house. It features a runround, and switching lead separate from the main. It required the addition of staging tracks at either end if operated on its own.

The operating concept was that a train would arrive in the runround, the mainline power would cut off and return with the caboose to staging, while the belt-line switcher spotted cars. Through trains could run on the main without interference, while the switcher made up another train for later collection by another mainline loco and caboose. Although intended as a US-prototype module, the trackplan is almost an exact copy of a location I used to shunt at many years ago here in Australia.



All the best,

Mark.

[IRONROOSTER]

You might want to browse through the Small Layout Scrapbook for ideas http://www.carendt.us/scrapbook/linkindex/index.html

Enjoy

Paul 

[Texas Zepher]

What do I look for in a LDE for a small space?

I would say something that requires lots of short car moves.   That could be several things:
1.  A single large industry that requires a mix of car types to various locations within the industry.  The cars move from the interchange to their proper locations and then back.  Example would be Coors Beer in Golden Colorado.
2.  A single industry or set of related industries where cars need internal moves.  Example would be a meat packing plant.
3.  A single one horse town with several small industries & businesses that is the end of a branch line.  Example would be Louisville on the Louisville & Wadley
4.  A transfer railroad who's sole purpose is to move cars between various connecting railroads. Example would be the TRRA of St. Louis MO.
5.  An area that has very limited space so cars must be shuffled in and out one or two at a time.  Example would be a crowded dock.

Our club has a packing plant as #2 above.  The livestock cars arrive and spotted for unloading.  Sometime more cars arrive than there are unloading gates for so the locomotive must remain on station to immediately swap in the full cars.  Later (computer controlled timer for duration on site) they are moved to a cleaning track.   Refrigerator cars are opposite as they arrive to their cleaning track (different than the stock's) first, then later they are moved to the icing house, then later to the packing plant to be loaded with fresh cut meat.  From time to time reefer cars arrive with ice for the icing house first.  There is also coal for the power plant of the packing plant.  There are box cars and gondolas in with food for the cattle, box cars and flats with supplies and machinery for the packing plant, then gondolas & hoppers for various wastes out.  A person who draws the packing plant local can be busy all night.  

edit - wow three posts since I started composing this.

[SBCA]

Chip, I would venture to guess that a very prototypical module would be very long, and only have a siding or two.  It seems major compression is a must if you want to have a lot of switching on a module.

I will be attempting to model the "flavor" of the prototype, but will accept that it won't make prototypical sense (but will still allow some fun switching!) 

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks for the link. I'm not really looking for someone else's ideas, I'll come up with my own. That said I guess the first thing I need to do is choose a location.

Ideally, I'd like a layout I could switch between PRR first gen deseil and B&P modern. Except for vehiles nothing much would change. I have 3 B&P engines and one PRR switcher. However, if push came to shove, I'd take 1st gen PRR.

It would be easest to model my local area, but I am in a pocket of B&O for my time period.

Figuring that I'm not immune to research, where should I be looking and what should I be looking for?

[SpaceMouse]

My take, you don't "look for an LDE".

You look for a design you like and then create the LDE's from that.

An LDE is an element of a PROTOTYPE scene you want to duplicate.  So the question is what PROTOTYPE scene do you want to model?  Then what part of aspect of that scene is critical to you.  Any scene can have many LDE's depending on what you want to emphasize.

If you don't want a particular prototype, then don't worry about an LDE, just look for a trackplan you like or design your own.

Dave H.

I guess it would help if mentioned that I recently when to a Prototype Modelers meet. I was impresssed with a switching layout ( a module actually). His module was a more freelanced than prototypical, but there was the opportunity for a lot of switching.

I'd like to work with a prototype and recreate it just because, but at the same time, I'd like to be able to run a few ops--well as much as possible. So figuring the hunt is on, I still don't know what type of thing I'm looking for.

Brakie,

Although I really like what you have, it would almost certainly have to be freelanced. I'm looking for the luxury of modeling what is there and not making things up as I go. Been there done that. I have a whole basement I'm going to be doing protolance.

I'm looking for a working diorama that follows a prototype.

But I've seen good ones and lame one. I'm trying to tell what makes the difference.