I tried a timesaver online once. I found myself see-sawing back and forth with cars on both ends trying to get that one shuffled out of the deck so I can finish the resulting Rubick's cube.
I suppose im laying my track in a manner that supports one way switching instead of a puzzle palace.
http://www.precisionlabels.com/shunt/jg3tims0.html
I finally solved it but took me weeks. Everything has to be done in a certain order to make it happen.
SpaceMouse wrote:I prefer my challenges to be more related to car order and efficiency of switching, if that make sense.
If you think of a Timesaver as a runaround with a spur on one side and a switchback on the other, it ceases to be just a puzzle. Hopefully you can find some IRL trackage that could be cut-and-pasted into a similar configuration.
I think you make sense - you like to sort out the cars so you can deliver them with minimal fuss, not get trapped in confined spaces making the delivery.
From experience: in 6 ft long, the interchange track is the one that stops at the cliffedge, rather than at a bumper post. When I design and build a few cassettes, cars can start arriving/departing without use of my 0-5-0. Alas I cannot think of how to model both ends of an interchange track, plus do anything else, in the space.
Other research possibilities: (a) If you want local industries and not so much specific locations, can you find a phone book for the area? Use whatever businesses sound good until better information comes up. (A piano maker drew my attention - my wife can play.) (b1) See if the city's Chamber of Commerce has anything historical. The 1907 version of Ft Wayne CoC was called the 'Commercial Club'; there are probably more synonyms to check out. (b2) Visitor and Convention Bureau(s) may also have something you could use as a start. (b3) Tourism agencies need sponsors; if they are not all insurance agents you may have customers for a team track. (c) The old mine companies (or their successors) may have brochures &c touting how easy it is to get shipments via the railroad, which may offer useful details.
SpaceMouse wrote: Dog,http://www.pennpilot.psu.edu/
Dog,
http://www.pennpilot.psu.edu/
Great site! Thanks!
Have fun
exPalaceDog wrote: The Old Dog just found it interesting that Indiana, Pa was NOT listed as an interchange it that source. My understanding is that having an interchange requires the agreement of both RR's to exchange cars at that point. The existance of a connecting track could merely mean that there was a connection to allow emergency detours or that there was a switching district that allowed both roads to serve certain customers.
I reaaly looked at the large photo and I have come to the conclusion that you are right. The track never actually joins between the two railroads. They cross. They run parallell with in yards, but I can't see a way of getting a car from one track tothe other.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
1st) Where are you finding the photos?
2nd) The Old Dog just found it interesting that Indiana, Pa was NOT listed as an interchange it that source. My understanding is that having an interchange requires the agreement of both RR's to exchange cars at that point. The existance of a connecting track could merely mean that there was a connection to allow emergency detours or that there was a switching district that allowed both roads to serve certain customers.
You mean 1944? This was a 1938 photo. The schematic I have for 1961 showed an interchange with the B&O and that looks like a track there. The photo actually blows up much larger, I just needed to fit the layout in one screen.
I'll try to remember to blow-up and post that area.
ereimer wrote: wow chip , 2 wye's and an interchange between 2 major railroads , all on top of each other . what more could you ask for in a small layout ?
wow chip , 2 wye's and an interchange between 2 major railroads , all on top of each other . what more could you ask for in a small layout ?
The fact that two RR's are in the same town does NOT mean they interchange there.
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRConnections.html
Note that Indiana, Pa is NOT listed as an interchange point with the B&O in 1844.
IT looks good, but I don't think I can make it fit in twice the space. I may fddle with it to see what the space requirement will be.
Also, although it really does look cool. I'm not sure of the operational capacity per space ratio. Seems like a lot of turning and little set out.
We'll see. Be great for a larger layout though. I should send it to Koester for his next book.
If you are looking for Sanborn Insurance maps then I would suggest that you check out any decent sized college. I know that both UGA and Georgia Tech hold substantial collections. Some of the smaller colleges such as Georgia State also hold some I believe. The only problem that I have found is some colleges have them on black and white microfilm, and color is part of the key.
We are lucky in Georgia in that some of them are available online. I'm actually thinking of doing a small switching layout based on Athens, GA in the early 1900's. At the time the Southern, Seaboard, and Central of Georgia all converged in one point. The Gainesville Midland had trackage rights on the Seaboard, and the Georgia Merged into the Central of Georgia just down the tracks. So hopefully I can simulate a bunch of interchange!
You can see on sheets 12 and 17.
http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/sanborn/CityCounty/Athens1918/
Talk about an LDE
This is just south of my town of Indiana, PA taken from an 1938 aerial photo. Lettering is mine but fits what I have found up to this point.
Mosaic (actually there was one I used before that, had to do with the university system)
Anyway, I found a siding and back in the distance I think I saw a coal processing plant. I'm going to try to get in with a mountain bike and a camera. Looked way deserted. This weekend I hope.
16 years ago I was the king of the LOC. I used to get research assignments from my prof as a graduate assistant and I would log onto the web and then to the LOC and have his stuff in minutes. He thought I worked hours to get the info. I'm tryint to remember the name of the browser. It was pre-Netscape.
I'll check it out.
I did some hunting into Sanborn maps and found sheet after sheet after sheet...
In the Library of Congress not yet on digital form or online.
jasoon wrote: ohio has a library network "ohio public library information network" www.oplin.org that can be logged into with the numbers from any ohio public library card. Maybe try going through your local library's web site, and see what is available that way. Of course i only have acess to ohio's maps...jason
ohio has a library network "ohio public library information network" www.oplin.org that can be logged into with the numbers from any ohio public library card. Maybe try going through your local library's web site, and see what is available that way. Of course i only have acess to ohio's maps...
jason
Thanks Jason,
I've found a site similar for PA, but no luck yet.
Im sorry I mis-used the word flag stop.. I looked up the defination.
I wonder if there is availibility through Inter-library loan for those sanborn maps? I recall trying to find a few occasionally and ran into various log in etc never see the actual maps on-line. It's almost as if these maps are being treated as state secrets.
Safety Valve wrote: I have been quietly following the saga of the Indiana town.. is it possible that this is a small flag stop with hardly no service except a interchange and a depot?
I have been quietly following the saga of the Indiana town.. is it possible that this is a small flag stop with hardly no service except a interchange and a depot?
To quote Bugs Bunny... "Eeeehhhh, could be."
The PRR Indiana Branch was first and foremost a coal service road. There were 9-10 mines that were serviced. In Indiana, and later in Homer City there were coal-fired power plants. Early on at least, Indiana seemed to be a thriving center of commerce. Even today, there are more millionaire's per capita in Indiana than any where else in the state--that with a general population averaging $18K per year.
I don't know, but I feel, it was more than a flag stop. Both the B & O and the PRR had stations--four blocks apart. The B&O station was 85 feet long and shared freight service. The PRR station was 100 ft long. The number of sdings in the area support the feeling that action took place, but don't necessarily confirm it.
Oh, something I forgot to mention.
I did a search on MSN for "Sanborn Insurance Map Pennsylvania". Evertime I hit an interesting site, I got a logon screen for some college. Going though the ISU library may allow you to access on-line Sanborn maps located at other schools. About a year or two ago, I did a search for Sanborn coverage of ESU (Edinboro). I was able to find coverage for 1928, but unable to see the actual maps on line.
Mouse and Dog,
I have been soaking in this http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/index.html and reading the PDF's related to stations, towers and sidings on the PRR.
I am wondering is this material availible for the B&O railroad in a similar form that is easy to understand? I think if I could locate operations papers as used by the B&O similar to what is presented in the PDF's for the PRR the missing peices of the puzzle will fall into place... maybe.
I do have an ulterior motive for posting this here as I am trying to reconcile some of the traffic on my railroad that does fall within the dominant reach of both the B&O and PRR. The engine tonnage ratings and assignments over specific areas certainly raises some new questions.
For example Baltimore area the M1a is rated for about 5000 tons give or take a little bit but you wont see any I-1sa 2-10-0's on the PRR south of Harrisburg however the Western Maryland has some of these brutes in thier Riverside Yard on websites that have photos.
One must not get too deep into the morass of unanswered questions.
By the way alot of towns are shells of thier former glory. I recall many small towns up in the west or north of the USA that were once very living and thriving towns but now rate hardly a stop light and a few intersections with boarded up stores hinting at commerce long gone.
The Rodnet gun is a interesting tidbit. Imagine the blast zone forward of the muzzle. Flash/burn suits anyone?
The Hoodelbug trail is the old route of the PRR south as you pointed out. The Ghost Town Trail is the old Cambria and Indiana Railroad.
I found a schematic of the PRR in 1951 that showed two sidings to the east of the main, a wye with an interchange with the B&O and and it looked like either a three-track holding yard or clasification yard. I've seen pictures of the B&O and what passed the station was 3 tracks and there were sidings that went off into town.
Also at the same time was a county-wide traction service.
So far, I've only been able to map out the PRR and B&O mains.
The current Buffalo and Pittsburgh comes from the north on the old B&O line and runs parrallel to the old PRR--sometimes within spitting distance.
SpaceMouse wrote: Dog,I ran into the same problem. The USGS maps look good, but I need a larger blow-up. I think the PRR was abanndoed by the time the map was made because it doesn't seem to show it. About the rodent gun.I've not seen them used around her with mice or rats, but we got several clubs that use them for hunting groundhogs.
I ran into the same problem. The USGS maps look good, but I need a larger blow-up. I think the PRR was abanndoed by the time the map was made because it doesn't seem to show it.
About the rodent gun.
I've not seen them used around her with mice or rats, but we got several clubs that use them for hunting groundhogs.
Some the USGS maps seem to show an abandoned line going south from Indiana which might at least show where the ROW was which is somewhat useful.
The 1871 maps show the ROW, but as I said are quite old
You might try downloading the USGS maps then enlarging them with MS Paint or Foto enlarging software.
THe college might have hard copies that you could enlarge.
Found something, but it's pretty old or too new
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/indianwe.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/usgs/
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/usgs/white.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/indianbg.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/blackbor.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/homer.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/blairsvl.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/usgs/center.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/usgs/blackbur.jpg
http://www.indianacountyparks.org/parks/countymap.htm
http://www.indianacountyparks.org/photos/maps/hoodlebugmap.pdf
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/topogeo/library/palib.aspx
PS Try this for rodent hunting;-)
http://www.worldwar1.com/foto/ft062a.jpg
jasoon wrote: I too am curently trying to wrangle my prototype into my space, and trying to make up my mind as to how realistic vs illustrative I want to be with my interpretation of the AC&Y. See if you can find Sanborn fire insurance maps, They've help me with a wealth of information, track configuration changes over time, industries, sometimes even what each building in a complex was used for... Also check to see what is offered in your state library network. In ohio you can, with your library card access numerous research databases, including the Sanborn maps. Nothing like doing research from your comfy chair. Hope that helps.jason
I too am curently trying to wrangle my prototype into my space, and trying to make up my mind as to how realistic vs illustrative I want to be with my interpretation of the AC&Y.
See if you can find Sanborn fire insurance maps, They've help me with a wealth of information, track configuration changes over time, industries, sometimes even what each building in a complex was used for... Also check to see what is offered in your state library network. In ohio you can, with your library card access numerous research databases, including the Sanborn maps. Nothing like doing research from your comfy chair.
Hope that helps.
Thanks,
I've seen some good use of the Sanborn maps, but I had completely forgotten about them.
Stein,
Thanks for the great info. Unfortunately, my MR collection runs only back to 2005.
As you can probably tell, I'm looking more to develop something prototypical based upon my local area. I have two possible leads, The PRR and B&O interchange that happened in our town and the Cambria and Indiana Railroad that ran 10 miles south of us. That's just if I want to run first generation switchers.
Much easier to do would be to model the current day Buffalo and Pittsburgh that run through the center of town today.
I've had several ideas for freelance, but I'm trying to see if I can get a historical/prototypical layout using techniques like Koester suggests in his Design Blocks book. What I'm finding is that for a beginner book, he's leaving a huge step out. How do you find the LDE's in the first place. He uses a combination of his own research (which he hints at taking weekly road trips with a bunch of guys railfan/railroaders) to various locations for ideas. He also complied many ideas from past Model Railroad Planning issues that he edited.
Luckily, there are those of you out there that have gone through a lot of the process.