TZ,
I can imagine that the Denver Library has much more info than my library which serves a population of 14,000 give or take. I'm not complaining, really. I am just starting. I just don't expect much from our local free library. They are great for getting books through interlibrary loan. But I looked on the shelf and there were two books on the PRR. Both about the PRR in the 1800s.
Dinwitty,
I'd thought of that. But I'm not at the point of doing it. I've only spent an hour or two on line and 45 minutes at the local library. As Dog pointed out, I have a university library to look into. They have a rich history and most of the local politics involved the University. When class is in session, the university has a higher population than the town. I wouldn't be surprized if the local paper was on microfishe there.
There is also a historical society in town and I know at least one model railroader that donates time there.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
NuCat,
Yes they had both lumber and paper. There are smaller lumber mills here both north and south, but nothing right in town. I'm getting the idea that this place was thriving economic center and is now just a depressed shell of it's former glory. Everyone my age that lives here worked in the mines. Now the average income is $18,000.
Dog,
There's some good stuff in there. I actually found lots of info on the PRR in the late 1800's and plenty of mention of the PRR in passing, but in the 5 volume history I looked through, the railroad was incidental and talked only abut when it came to town and little about it's relationship to local industries.
I have a rough idea where the railroad ran, but it's really rough. I have no clue of the sidings. There was also a traction line that ran to neighboring communities. I haven't seen anything on maps about that.
nucat78 wrote: This might be a little late in the discussion, but check out the shelf papermill in last year's "MRP". It's a 1-foot by 8-foot switching layout with an interchange track. Quite inventive and you could probably scale down a bit by eliminating one spur.
This might be a little late in the discussion, but check out the shelf papermill in last year's "MRP". It's a 1-foot by 8-foot switching layout with an interchange track. Quite inventive and you could probably scale down a bit by eliminating one spur.
Linda Sand's Industrial shelf layout - yes, that is a _very_ neat 1x8' shelf layout. She has also gotten several other very neat shelf layouts published, e.g:
Both of the designs above take advantage of having the running track down the _center_ of the shelf instead of along the front of the shelf, with industries branching off both towards the back wall _and_ towards the aisle. Both layouts also make judicious use of nice scenic dividers like highway bridges across the track.
A couple of other very neat shelf layouts I've seen over the last few years:
I also noted a very neat layout around the walls shelf layout with two railroads (CNW and ?) based on the Owatonna depot in Minnesota in an issue of MR not too far back - can't find that magazine right now - I need to organize my collection of magazines a little better :-)
Smile, Stein
I've gone to the library looking for tings, Topographical maps a good resource, they may have old copies.
I found an oddball source for mappage, could be on microfiche, but stuff like municipal mappage for sewer lines often show other details.
SpaceMouse wrote: I went to the library and was disappointed about how little local history was there. Zero maps.
I went to the library and was disappointed about how little local history was there. Zero maps.
Try the college library if you can get access!
SpaceMouse wrote:The good news is that I found out some cool things. The PRR station was right across the street from Jimmy Stewart's dad's hardware store. At the end of that block was the engine house. Both were torn down in 1967, but the Hoodlebug made it's last run in 1940, so the station might have been closed long before it was razed. There was a turntable, but it was abandoned in the late 1800's and they put in a wye. The main commerce of the Indiana Branch of the PRR was coal, but nothing near town. There was a power plant, and I think it might have been the plant now called the Co-gen plant at the IUP university. There was also a glass plant.
The good news is that I found out some cool things. The PRR station was right across the street from Jimmy Stewart's dad's hardware store. At the end of that block was the engine house. Both were torn down in 1967, but the Hoodlebug made it's last run in 1940, so the station might have been closed long before it was razed. There was a turntable, but it was abandoned in the late 1800's and they put in a wye.
The main commerce of the Indiana Branch of the PRR was coal, but nothing near town. There was a power plant, and I think it might have been the plant now called the Co-gen plant at the IUP university. There was also a glass plant.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/zts-pdv1.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/zts-pdv2.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/zts-pdv3.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr-map.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr-pg13.gif
At least the Indiana branch existed, see next two map links
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Pennsylvania_Railroad_1911.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Pennsylvania_RR_1899.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/pc/pc.html
Engine Operating Manual Including S1
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/manual.html
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRConnections.html
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Centhist/
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/index_byorigin.html
http://members.tripod.com/generaljim1-ivil/theerielackawannalimited/id12.html
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/index.html
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/downloads/ett_5409_pittsburgh.pdf
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/downloads/ett_5504_conemaugh.pdf
Above are some map and employee timetable links, unfortunately I didn't see much on Indiana, Pa. Since you know the area better, you might find something
Have fun
I have a 2'7" foot by 6'11" niche in my den that might very well get this layout put in it. Foam on shelf brackets. Cheap and fast and I can theoretically detail it ad nauseum. Plus a mill would take flats, woodchip hoppers, tanks, boxcars and open hoppers with coal for the powerplant - nice variety with an SW-1500 or maybe a GP38. And if / when I get tired of it, minimal pain if I scrap it.
And I think PA had a large paper industry once, didn't they?
Continuing the saga...
Modeling it has an aspect I hadn't thought of.
A modeler can "bend" the track to make it fit. IE, I can bend the wye or leave a leg off and model the interchange with the B&O.
Trouble is everyone around here will wonder why the locations of the buildings aren't where they are supposed to be.
Thanks Dinwitty,
I have a long way to go. I don't know what was going on in town in terms of industry. All I know is B&O ran passnegers north and the PRR ran passengers south with the hoodlebug. There are sidings and it seems like an interchange. But I don't know what they were for.
The sideings were all torn out and the buildings are gone. There was a junk yard when I moved here, and a siding for that, but I never saw it used. There is a major coal-fired power plant to the south, but I don't know when that was built. The B&P services it now.
I have some digging to do.
You may never get an exact prototype modeled, but freelance some to keep it interesting.
I have the same delimma for my modulars. An interchange between 2 operating lines will make it interesting. The Timesaver is a John Allen invention for 2 duplicate timesavers with an interchange between, 2 operators kinda chessgame to see who can finish their switching moves faster.
If indiana consider the local industries like grains and fresh produce. There could be an LCL dock for one car.
You can do a lot in 6'x30".
I found an MR article with some streetcar switching in a town, very small and compact and just a mass of switching interest.
I almost would wanna build it.
exPalaceDog wrote: You might find the following links of interesthttp://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=indn02sw.jpg&state=PAhttp://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm?lat=40.625&lon=-79.142928&scale=24000&zoom=50&type=1&height=498&width=498&icon=0&searchscope=dom&CFID=1155414&CFTOKEN=82785359&scriptfile=http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm&bpid=HIS0203033115%2C2%2C1%2C0&latlontype=DMShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana,_PAhttp://www.indianacountyparks.org/trails/ht/ht.htmlHave fun
You might find the following links of interest
http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=indn02sw.jpg&state=PA
http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm?lat=40.625&lon=-79.142928&scale=24000&zoom=50&type=1&height=498&width=498&icon=0&searchscope=dom&CFID=1155414&CFTOKEN=82785359&scriptfile=http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm&bpid=HIS0203033115%2C2%2C1%2C0&latlontype=DMS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana,_PA
http://www.indianacountyparks.org/trails/ht/ht.html
Cool Stuff Dog, Thanks.
BRJN wrote: SpaceMouse,You can fit a Timesaver on 6ft x 12". With your extra 18" depth you could make tracks not parallel to the edges of the table, or lay it out around a curve (is there a geometry major in the house?) Then, to be prototypical, you just need to find some place where there is a runaround track with a number of spurs off it.The GP-38 will only be able to move one car at a time through the runaround and onto any drill track-slash-spur. What industries can you think of that need only 1 or 2 cars at a time?I have been fiddling with my own Timesaver-based layout this spring and now have spurs that curve out in every direction from the runaround. The effect, since I have no scenery yet, is an eyeball-bender. I think it will look better with buildings in place. It should be able to make self-framing photo scenes.
SpaceMouse,
You can fit a Timesaver on 6ft x 12". With your extra 18" depth you could make tracks not parallel to the edges of the table, or lay it out around a curve (is there a geometry major in the house?) Then, to be prototypical, you just need to find some place where there is a runaround track with a number of spurs off it.
The GP-38 will only be able to move one car at a time through the runaround and onto any drill track-slash-spur. What industries can you think of that need only 1 or 2 cars at a time?
I have been fiddling with my own Timesaver-based layout this spring and now have spurs that curve out in every direction from the runaround. The effect, since I have no scenery yet, is an eyeball-bender. I think it will look better with buildings in place. It should be able to make self-framing photo scenes.
Thanks,
I like switchining puzzles, just not on my layout. They are fun until you solve them thoroughly then they are just an obstacle.
I prefer my challenges to be more related to car order and efficiency of switching, if that make sense.
SBCA wrote: Chip, I always enjoy your posts and enthusiasm.What's going on with the basement layout? Is the basement prepared for it yet?
Chip, I always enjoy your posts and enthusiasm.
What's going on with the basement layout? Is the basement prepared for it yet?
Have the blue portion of the layout done. Darl at top and ligher at base. Still need to airbrush in the white from the bottom up, then on to painting in the actual backdrop. Hope to get the airbrush portion done this weekend. Yard work keeps foiling me though.
Do you have any trackplans to post?
dti406 wrote: Here is another site with great Pennsy Information - Jerry Britains Keystone Crossings:http://kc.pennsyrr.com/Rick
Here is another site with great Pennsy Information - Jerry Britains Keystone Crossings:
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
Rick
He doesn't list a history of the Indiana Branch, but there is a schematic that shows in 1951 there was what looks like a runaround, 2 sidings, a two track yard and an interchange with the B&O.
Now if I can find a map and some pictures.
This might be doable.
This is a personal hang-up, but the Old Dog thinks it is wise to avoid industries that mainly use open top cars like coal mines. Staging the loads back to the mine between sessions is a pain.
The Old Dog would suggest an "S" curve that would divide the layout into two triangles with removable extensions to provide staging that could be removed when not is use.
Then you might consider something like the area just to the North of the old Erie Meadville Yard. In one triangle, put a freight terminal, one story, three or four tracks with maybe six spots on each track. Add a pair of stock resting pens. Add a spur to a bulk oil dealer accress the highway.
Place a two stall diesel house along the main on the other side. Then add the Erie salvage yard and maybe part of the Erie car re-building shop (later periods). If you want something else in the area, you could put the old brake shoe plant from up the creek in the space.
Another possibility would be Saegertown, Pa. Put the UTLX tank car repair plant in one triangle and Wilks lumber yard in the other.
Another site might be the old Keystone Ordnance Works loading area near Geneva from WW II that shipped TNT. Loads of unusual buildings.
Then there is the old condensed milk plant on the PA RR Pittsburgh Buffale line near Centerville Pa. That might be small enough to fit without too much compression.
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
fwright wrote: Perhaps you need to confess that you are at heart a layout design junkie, and your posts are really part of this sub-hobby. yours in dangerous thinkingFred W
yours in dangerous thinking
Fred W
You are right about coal mining operations as they are currently modeled, however, at the same recent prototype modelers meet I've mentioned before, I attended a seminar on coal mining/railroad modeling. Most of the mines shown were either truck dumps or loaded by cats. There were several loaded by conveyor that couldn't be seen from the actual track, and therefore could be modeled by a single siding.
In my head, I've designed a coal layout for a space my size, but decided I wasn't interested as I designed it. I'm going to look further into the C&I because of the small switcher aspect, but I'm more interested in the PRR running through downtown Indiana past Jimmy Stewart's Dad's Hardware store. It's just that so far, I've come up empty.
SpaceMouse wrote: I've been considering build a 30 x 6 module so that I can run a few locos that are my favorites, but shelf queens. But to tell the truth, I'm no sure how to go about it. Koester suggests that I could build the layout out of a single Layout Design Element (LDE). I get that, but I'm not sure I know what to look for. Any layout I do would have to 1) make sense & 2) provide meaningful operations. If I model local area I could satisfy both my engines--a PRR S1 and a Buffalo and Pittsburgh GP-38. But that is not the issue. What do I look for in a LDE for a small space?
I've been considering build a 30 x 6 module so that I can run a few locos that are my favorites, but shelf queens.
But to tell the truth, I'm no sure how to go about it. Koester suggests that I could build the layout out of a single Layout Design Element (LDE). I get that, but I'm not sure I know what to look for.
Any layout I do would have to 1) make sense & 2) provide meaningful operations. If I model local area I could satisfy both my engines--a PRR S1 and a Buffalo and Pittsburgh GP-38.
But that is not the issue. What do I look for in a LDE for a small space?
I'm not so sure the LDE approach works all that well for an operations-oriented very small layout.
Could be I believe that way because I grew up as a model railroader, not a prototype modeler. And if I had to choose today, it would be playing with model trains over prototype modeling.
Given that, IMHO the reason for the failure of the LDE approach in very small spaces is the same reason almost all modules designed to be part of a club-size setup fail as a stand-alone small layout. It is very difficult to make an operationally interesting LDE stand totally on its own. The connections to the rest of the world - the raison d'etre of the railroad itself - are needed for the operations to be at all realistic. And over-compressing the prototype LDE to fit these connections leads directly back to the caricature switching layouts that are ridiculed so often in the forums.
There was an article in a 1972 Model Railroader issue that addressed what it would take to have a realistic coal mine in HO that could justify a railroad connection. Even using 3 car hopper cuts for the mine tipple and 9 car trains of empties/loads, the mine scene was 2ft x 8ft. The track arrangement would be simpler if it were doubled in length, but the essentials of car handling for the mine were still the same.
To me, it seems much easier to take a known functional and reasonably interesting switching arrangement - see Carl Arendt's micro-layouts - and grow them into a suitable free-lance LDE. Yes, the prototype modelers will scoff. But you are not having to reinvent the wheel with this approach. The operating potential is a known quantity, and often contains some form of a switching puzzle for additional interest. The space-saving "tricks" used by model railroaders are already built-in, but can be eliminated if you have the space.
The real question becomes - do you want what is essentially an animated diorama of a prototype LDE? Or do you want a not-necessarily-prototypical layout that is fun to operate, and has an element of switching puzzle built in? Or maybe not spread yourself so thin with the club layouts, your primary layout, and this (sell the display queens)?
Perhaps you need to confess that you are at heart a layout design junkie, and your posts are really part of this sub-hobby.
Thanks Rick and Will,
While searching the net for the PRR in my town, I came across a short line called the Cambria and Indiana Railroad. It basically existed from 1904 to 1994 and ran about 10 miles out of town. It ran mostly Mikes and EMD switchers. The original commerce was lumber until coal was discovered. At one point during the '30s and '40s it was known as the "World's Richest Little Railroad." It owned a vast number of hoppers that it leased all over the country. Revenue from leasing the hoppers exceeded the revenue from hauling coal.
Hey, I could model largest part the 30's and 40's operation by building a diorama of the corporate headquarters.
From March '71 Trains:
From Fallen Flags
I think that you have the horse at the appropriate end of the cart in this exercise. You have to find the prototype location or locations to incorporate as LDE's into your plan. It is probably going to take some feet on the ground in the small towns along the route locally of both the PRR and B&O now B&P, looking for some industries to model that catch your interest. Some of the inital research can be done online with some of the map programs to locate areas of possible industries for a switchng type layout. You may find several "likely candidates" several miles apart. There is no reason that these LDE's cannot be combined by moving them adjacent to one another in selective "compression" of both the Elements and the distance between them. Sort of thinking "outside the box" in reverse. With today's high gasoline prices going off in search of interesting candidates could be both costly and a waste of time, especially following the demise of the "Rust Belt" and the advent of railroad right of way "biker/hiking paths". However, there are probably remaining artifacts of the industries that supported two railroads at one time.
As a starting place take a look at Oil City. I spent some time there in the late '60s touring the Jones and Laughlin welded specialty tube mill that as I recall received coiled cold rolled steel coils from the Pittsburgh mills by rail and shipped finished tubing by both rail and by truck. The mill may still be there, operating under LTV Steel or one of its sucessors.
Find the LDE that you like, then the track plan can be adapted from there. Good hunting!
Will
Also, many counties have valuation maps going back many decades, you should be able to find those at the county courthouse, these would show the tracks and the industires/customers served.
My first--
Jimmy Stewart's Dad's Hardware Store in 1949. Now torn down.
SpaceMouse wrote:The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype. I imagine that a lot of it happens by accident, someone sees something cool takes some pictures and says, I'm going to model that. But when Koester says find a prototype LDE that you like, it reminds me of the Steve Martin joke...
The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype. I imagine that a lot of it happens by accident, someone sees something cool takes some pictures and says, I'm going to model that. But when Koester says find a prototype LDE that you like, it reminds me of the Steve Martin joke...
Texas Zepher wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype. You know, there was a thread about good industries to model last summer some time. Perhaps we could map that list to real places and check the satelite maps and see what we can find. I just happened to think of the Great Western sugar plant up in Longmont Colorado. I don't know how much suffling of cars they did within the plant itself. It is almost all gone now. Holley Colorado used to have the Holley Sugar company, but it was long gone by the 1970s. They had to have some fairly massive rail operations.
SpaceMouse wrote:The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype.
I just happened to think of the Great Western sugar plant up in Longmont Colorado. I don't know how much suffling of cars they did within the plant itself. It is almost all gone now. Holley Colorado used to have the Holley Sugar company, but it was long gone by the 1970s. They had to have some fairly massive rail operations.
The Pennsylvania Railroad and Technical Society has a website that I have spent a couple hours at without much luck so far.
In fact they are holding their annual meeting this weekend about 40 miles from me. I had planned to go, but my wife has a speaking engagement on the other side of the state.
Too bad because they had a railfan tour I wanted to take. They were going to take a bus to all the best viewing locations around the state. It has taken me quite some time to find the few that I have found.
In my little town of 16,000, the traffic in the 50's or 60's was split by the B&O and PRR. The B&O right of way is now owned by the Buffalo and Pittsburgh. The PRR route among other things ran the "Hoodlebug" that is now the "Hoodlebug Trail" a bike path. The B&O ran freight of the Buffalo Rochester and Pittsburgh and the PRR was a few blocks away and ran through the center of town. There does not seem to be anything left of the PRR.
I thought a trip to the local library is in order. We also have a historical society, but I don't know how good it is.
johncolley wrote:Spacemouse, just a thought, why not check out freemo.org and look at some of the modules and setup pics, to get some ideas and standards to compare. Also, if you make it 24" wide for single track or 26" for double track, you can take it to Free-mo setups and play nice with others, eh? jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA
Actually, that's kinda what got me thinking. NMRA Div 2 has a modular club and I talked quite a bit with some of the members. But I kinda gave up on that because I'm already operating on two layouts and starting a basement of my own.
Still it's in the back of my mind.