Amen on the MRC Decoders. Yes I do own a 4-4-0 RTR with a MRC Decoder.. (A Brilliance series? Humpth) it felt like I needed the electronic equivilant of a sledge to hammer it into compliance and does not do switching very well. Option one whistle. Behind that is 7 different whistles. None very good.
On the other hand I can make the giant QSI 2-10-2 Heavy do the waltz over the worst track with very precise adjustments in DCC.
Ghonz,
You'll find that the general consensus here on the MRC decoders is that they are, sadly, not worth considering...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
BRAKIE wrote:For steam I favor the sound of Tsunami..I have heard these decoders and was impress with the over all sound.
Ya I have heard great reviews about the Tsunami, however, I saw that MRC has steam decoders on their website. Anyone have any experience (directly or indirectly) with these sound decoders?
Ghonz
- Matt
ghonz711 wrote: Interesting... What, in your opinion is the best, low-mid ranged steam sound decoder on the market? I'm lookin at anything between the 90-110 dollar area. I'm looking to equip my IHC 4-8-2 with a sound decoder in the near future. Would really appreciate your input.Ghonz
Interesting... What, in your opinion is the best, low-mid ranged steam sound decoder on the market? I'm lookin at anything between the 90-110 dollar area. I'm looking to equip my IHC 4-8-2 with a sound decoder in the near future. Would really appreciate your input.
For steam I favor the sound of Tsunami..I have heard these decoders and was impress with the over all sound.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Oboy, we're in it again, at least from some of the posts I'm reading.
I'm staying out of it, this time--the last time I snapped back at ModelMaker, a contribuitor that I admire very much, and thereby caused a minor conflagration.
ModelMaker--apologies for misreading your post, I got caught up in a snit and couldn't get out of it.
Anyway, still sticking with DC because it works for me.
PS: I have about six BLI DC-DCC steamers I'd like to sell very reasonably. Won't advertise on EBay, since I've found out that there are PayPal hackers out there. Anyone interested, look up my E-mail address on my profile and contact me personally, I'll give you all the info.
Again, ModelMaker, if you read this, my sincere apologies.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
MTennent wrote: Ah, thanks Larry. Sounds pretty good for the DC folks. (pun intended)
Ah, thanks Larry.
Sounds pretty good for the DC folks. (pun intended)
Mike,Athearn has join the DC/sound wagon..Their Genesis SD45-2 will come with DC/Sound as will the next release on the Genesis F7s..Both units will use a wireless handheld remote for DC sound.
Mike,Heres what Atlas has to say about their Quantum Engineer Controller.I copied and paste their ad.
The New Quantum EngineerTM Controller was created to allow DC users of Atlas Master Gold Series locomotives to take control of all the QSI® Quantum SystemTM sound features that were previously available only to users with DCC-equipped layouts. Now, in addition to the horn and bell sounds, users will be able to access different engine settings and effects such as number lights, flanges, dynamic brakes, coupler sounds, blower/fans, reverse lights and much, much more.
In addition to these sound and lighting features, DC users are also able to access other advanced features such as programming options, locomotive braking, locomotive shut-down and start-up procedures, verbal scale speed readout and more!
Setup is easy, as the Quantum EngineerTM Controller is simply wired in between a standard DC power pack and the track. No other special equipment or wiring is required.
Note: The Quantum Engineer Controllers are designed to operate locomotives that have QARC (Quantum Analog Remote Control) technology. Except for simple horn and bell operations, the Quantum Engineer Control is not suitable for older Quantum-equipped engines that do not have QARC technology included.
The Quantum Engineer will only operate sound locomotives that include the latest QSI technology. This technology is included in all Atlas, Life-Like/Proto 2000 and Hobbycraft Canada sound-equipped locomotives. The more recent locomotive releases from Broadway Limited Imports (BLI) can also be operated; this includes the PRR K-4, EMD E-series passenger units, EMD SD40-2, C&O T-1, EMD switchers, etc. BLI locomotive releases previous to these, as well as the Lionel Challenger and Turbine will not operate with the Quantum Engineer.
I'm scratching my head over the sound side of this discussion.
The original poster seemed to express surprise that a DC engine had good sound, but since several of our club (which is DC) members have nice sound equiped engines, it's no surprise to me. Sound quality is a seprate issue from control method.
My impression is that DCC decoders can address many more separate and distinct sounds with function keys, but DC boards are more limited in variety. Is that correct?
I'm DCC, but in N scale, so no sound for me yet unless the quality improves.
Mike Tennent
Ah Ha! I see buy by the bulk pack and get the decoders at $12.00.I see we are both correct depending on how one wishes to buy decoders.IF the membership ever voted in DCC I would only want to suggest the better brands of decoders like Digi Trax,Lenz and NCE.Personally I would recommend Digi Trax because that what I was using.
As far as sound we will see how that fairs as more DC sound equipped locos come on line..After all the majority of the membership works in noisy occupations and they may not want sound equipped locos..
BRAKIE wrote:Joe,I have never seen decoders for $12.00 each.
Joe,I have never seen decoders for $12.00 each.
Brakie:
You just don't know where to look ...
Here's a link to my list of where to get great DCC prices, including a link to ...
D13SRJ 4-Pack HO Scale Mobile Decoder
MSRP: $74.95 Our Price: $50.98
$50.98 divided by 4 is $12.75 ... or even better yet:
D13SRJ 10-Pack HO Scale Mobile Decoder
$119.95 divided by 10 is $11.99, or $12.00 depending on which way you round.
Like I said, $12 each in quantity. And they're great decoders as well, practically a steal if you ask me.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Heres some prices lists of the SUPERIOR brands of DCC decoders and the brands I would recommand to my fellow club members...
Tonys
Digi Trax
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/digitrax_decs_med.htm
Lenz
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/lenz_decs.htm
NCE
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/nce_dec_medium.htm
Here Tonys brand.
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/tteexclusive_decs.htm
BRAKIE wrote:Seeing 75% the locomotives on the layout are Athearn and combine with DCC throttles and decoders being high price I believe that put the nails in the DCC coffin more then anything..
The "high price" of decoders used to be true, but with very nice fleet decoders going for $12 each these days, that concern doesn't apply as much any more.
If someone has say 20 locos, for the price of one nice sound loco they can equip their entire loco fleet with some very nice decoders.
If you want to know where you can get these prices, see this link. As to the specific decoder I'm thinking of, look for the NCE D13SRJ.
Thanks for everyone posting so far. Yes I know this pretty much exhausts the topic beyond measure, but I just had to get some answers for my own knowledge and I am sure some others will find this information useful.
Ironically, while many of you were squabbling over Dispatchers, I realized that I forgot to mention that on the DC Controlled YRM layout, there was no designated dispatcher. All of the mainline cabs included panels with major junction controls and power distribution toggle switches. When power was being transferred to a particular block, an LED would light up on the panel. If power was not being transferred, then the LED remained dark. In yard locations, the yardmaster had ultimate control over the area and had his own panel, with the ability to route power to either the mainline cabs or to his own cab. I personally found it quite interesting.
Once again, my own personally polarity has shifted on the issue, from DC to DCC in only a few days. Before I rest my case, however, I was curious to hear from anyone who has used cheap, but efficient dual mode decoders. I am leaning towards DCC in the future, but plan on at least starting with a DC layout that I can convert to DCC when the funds arrive. How many of you have done, or contemplated doing this yourself?
Thanks again to all of your fantastic comments.
ghonz711 wrote:DCC right? Wrong! The layout was run on a seemingly flawless DC system with an additional Quantum Engineer added to one of the throttles. The trains operated extremely smoothly over the entire layout. I was shocked to see that all of this was possible with DC, for (in my current situation of non-dcc ready locomotives from IHC) much cheaper than it would be to purchase a DCC system and suitable decoders. I have done some surfing on the Internet and found that a Digitrax Zephyr System, along with ten decoders, and extra cab to be close to $1000 dollars Canadian. DC would be much cheaper, considering that all I really need is a few feet of wire and an extra throttle, and if I chose, the Quantum Engineer. I do have a BLI locomotive that I am enjoying currently by flipping the direction switch back and forth, but to be able to control all of the sound and light functions on the locomotive in DC is extremely new to me.The railroad seemed much less interesting, although not nearly as close to complete as the YRM layout, because it seemed almost too easy to get a train up and running, throwing turnouts from the handheld, chatting as your train was traversing the length of the railroad. I found that using DC, you had to have a more detailed understanding of the railroad, your train, and all of the other trains running at the same time. The sound of the locomotives was broken often by calls to other operators asking for track clearance and such (which actually had to be obtained, considering that opposite polarities in DC would short out the track). It seemed much more 'action packed.' Am I missing something? Because every thread I've read seems to have some extremely valid and direction shifting points to both systems. I would love to hear from some other people who have experienced either flawless DC operation or perhaps, detailed and 'action packed' DCC railroads that required flipping switches, and communicating with the rest of the group in such an, if not more, intense manor.Ghonz
DCC right? Wrong! The layout was run on a seemingly flawless DC system with an additional Quantum Engineer added to one of the throttles. The trains operated extremely smoothly over the entire layout. I was shocked to see that all of this was possible with DC, for (in my current situation of non-dcc ready locomotives from IHC) much cheaper than it would be to purchase a DCC system and suitable decoders. I have done some surfing on the Internet and found that a Digitrax Zephyr System, along with ten decoders, and extra cab to be close to $1000 dollars Canadian. DC would be much cheaper, considering that all I really need is a few feet of wire and an extra throttle, and if I chose, the Quantum Engineer. I do have a BLI locomotive that I am enjoying currently by flipping the direction switch back and forth, but to be able to control all of the sound and light functions on the locomotive in DC is extremely new to me.
The railroad seemed much less interesting, although not nearly as close to complete as the YRM layout, because it seemed almost too easy to get a train up and running, throwing turnouts from the handheld, chatting as your train was traversing the length of the railroad. I found that using DC, you had to have a more detailed understanding of the railroad, your train, and all of the other trains running at the same time. The sound of the locomotives was broken often by calls to other operators asking for track clearance and such (which actually had to be obtained, considering that opposite polarities in DC would short out the track). It seemed much more 'action packed.' Am I missing something? Because every thread I've read seems to have some extremely valid and direction shifting points to both systems.
I would love to hear from some other people who have experienced either flawless DC operation or perhaps, detailed and 'action packed' DCC railroads that required flipping switches, and communicating with the rest of the group in such an, if not more, intense manor.
The control system doesn't dictate the operational feel nearly as much as the layout and operational plan, especially on a medium-to-small home layout.
DCC's forte is ease of control of track that is intensively shared between multiple locomotives and trains. This is because DCC addresses the locomotive rather than the track block. Where multiple trains and/or locomotives are not intensively sharing the same track, the need to address locomotives directly is not nearly as critical.
An example would be my planned home layout. It's designed for basically point-to-point for both an HO and an HOn3 line, with not much switching or meeting capability in between the 4 towns/terminals. Dual guage track will likely be minimal - perhaps a turntable and/or wye and maybe a transfer track or two. I anticipate a maximum of one operator working each town or transiting between 2 towns at any given time - the track arrangement is too simple to support more. Sequential operations rather than scheduled are the order of the day. In my case, DCC strengths don't particularly apply. I will probably eventually install DCC for the sound and for compatibility with modular setups, but it's a low priority at present. Again, in my particular case, DC is probably simpler to set up, and isn't much more difficult to operate - provided I have a good understanding of DC wiring. Knowledge of how to set up DC wiring, placing block boundaries, and the like isn't nearly as common as it used to be.
On the other hand, just 2 people operating 2 trains simultaneously on a 4x8 with a short continuous loop would probably be much happier with DCC. DCC eliminates having to focus so much attention on flipping block toggles in the cases where the track is crowded and the number of operators is few.
You are right about one thing - operation with DC requires better operator knowledge of the layout than DCC. The DC engineer must know where the block boundaries are, and the impact on power distribution (if any) of throwing a given turnout. This can be good or bad, depending on how familiar the normal operating crew is expected to be with a given layout. In real life, operation of a large DC layout with multiple crews requires at least some key positions be filled with folks who know the layout intimately. This cannot be done with something like a Free-mo setup where the track plan changes every setup. Consequently, Free-mo requires Digitrax DCC.
Sound is easier with DCC because the same controller addresses all sounds in all sound-equipped locomotives. Each DC sound decoder brand currently has its own proprietary controller. The other issue with DC sound is that much of the voltage control range is used for the sound electronics. The Model Railroader reviews consistently show a sound locomotive in DC mode doesn't start moving until track voltage gets into the 7-9 volt range. Doesn't leave a very large range for control under DC, and makes consisting between sound and non-sound locos impossible. In my case, these reasons, plus the possibility to combine synchronized under-the-table sound with on-board sound are why I will eventually switch to DCC.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Paul,Its no secrete that the area I live in is a blue collar area and that of course reflects in the club membrship..We have 80% blue collar,15% various service jobs,5% white collar and 5% retiree as members..
Athearn,Atlas and P2K diesels are used with Athearn being the most prevalent-75%.This include BB,RTR and Genesis..Oddly Bachmann diesels will not be seen nor will Walthers except for a handful of GP15s and F40PH.Oddly come all steam operation and brass steam locomotives from the 50/60s appear as well as P2K and Spectrum.We have one member that uses his Hobbytown RS3s he built in the 60s!! We have one 27 year old member that builds and runs Bowser steamers.This guy can from a area club that ask him to refrain from running his steamers because they are to noisy.
I also suspect Athearn locomotives are prevalent because the locomotives stay on the layout..I suspect there is always 250 locomotives on the layout including stagging.
The other HO club I am a member of Atlas and P2K are the dominate locomotives with Athearn RTR in third place.You will see Bachmann,BLI and Walthers here..However,everybody takes their cars and locos home after each operation session.
.
Brakie,75% of the locos in your club are Athearn? As in "Blue Box" Athearn? That seems a little high to me, logically. If only because of the existance of Atlas, Kato, Proto, BLI, etc., and the corresponding dramatic increase in the number of other models available. Unless your club members just aren't buying new things? Shrug.
At my club, even when I first saw the place in 1990, Athearn's were not such a vast majority. Atlas with it's RS-1, RS-3, RS-11, GP7, GP40, S-2, S-4, FP7, etc. had taken a real slice out of the total percentage of locos on the layout. I think I'd have to go back to the early to mid 1980's for a 75% type majority of Athearn locos.
And these days, I think the number of Athearn's has dropped to under 10% on our total roster.
But if you say it's 75% at your club, I believe you. But man, does that sound like a really high percentage...
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Dan
CNW 6000 wrote: Time for more grease on the fire...We have both systems on our layout at the Oshkosh Model Railroad Club. We use an admittedly complicated switch-system to control what is powering what. The advantage is that we can run both DC and DCC...AT THE SAME TIME! This satisfies both crowds. There are those that love DCC and won't use anything else and those that feel the same way about DC. It's kind of a best-of-both-worlds scenario. We have technically 3 yards and a double tracked main that can run either power. This system seems to work best especially in the handoff of trains in the yards. They're usually DC and the mains are usually DCC.
Time for more grease on the fire...
We have both systems on our layout at the Oshkosh Model Railroad Club. We use an admittedly complicated switch-system to control what is powering what. The advantage is that we can run both DC and DCC...AT THE SAME TIME! This satisfies both crowds. There are those that love DCC and won't use anything else and those that feel the same way about DC. It's kind of a best-of-both-worlds scenario. We have technically 3 yards and a double tracked main that can run either power. This system seems to work best especially in the handoff of trains in the yards. They're usually DC and the mains are usually DCC.
Dan,As the club's"problem solver"(please don't ask) I suggested a duel system and rotating operating sessions between DCC and DC and that went over like a lead brick because of the number of locomotives needed for a normal operation and only 8 members wanted DCC even though several others half heartily said they *might* be interested in DCC operation but,still voted down DCC went the vote was taken.
Here is MY thoughts..
Seeing 75% the locomotives on the layout are Athearn and combine with DCC throttles and decoders being high price I believe that put the nails in the DCC coffin more then anything..
CSX Robert wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: CSX Robert wrote:If you want the dispatcher to have control over where the trains will go, then it is easier and less expensive to accomplish in DC(I am not saying it can't be done with DCC, but it is EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE with DC).Gotta disagree. With DCC you can have your computer do the dispatching, simulating real CTC. It's much cheaper to install some software (like JMRI Pro) on your computer and have it work with DCC than manually installing a real CTC machine (like Tony Koester's AM) and doing it all manually.I would say that from what I've seen, DCC actually makes it easier to run the railroad like a real railroad.I don't think you understand what I was saying. If you use JMRI and DCC to do the dispatching, the dispatcher tells the engineer where to go, but he does not have control over where he goes. He may control turnouts, but he is relying on the engineer to not proceed into a block that he is not supposed to proceed into. AntonioFP45 wrote:CSX Robert,In prototype railroads, the dispatcher is assigning routes to various trains, adjusting schedeules, etc. If the engineers misunderstand or disobey the dispatcher, near misses or collisions can occur.DCC duplicates this flawlessly. With DC cab controls routings, collisions between opposing trains are almost completely eliminated. But while it will help keep trains safer, imho, it deprives operators of the "feel and flavor" of what prototype dispatchers and locomotive crews have to experience as far as avoiding collisions.I understand the job of a dispatcher and I agree with the rest of your post completely, but not everyone wants their crews to have to worry about avoiding collisions. jktrains wrote:...I think people misunderstand what the job of a dispatcher is. Their primary job is not to control track power, but it is to ensure the smooth flow of traffic across the territory, DC or DCC make no difference to the primary job. The dispatchers job is more akin to an orchestra conductor; they try to get eveyone playing together smoothly.jktrainsI don't know if you were refering to me specifically, but again I do know the job of a dispatcher; however, some people do want the dispatcher to control the track power on their layouts.I hope I'm not sounding defensive, but Im just trying to clarify what appear to be msunderstandings about what I said earlier.
Dave Vollmer wrote: CSX Robert wrote:If you want the dispatcher to have control over where the trains will go, then it is easier and less expensive to accomplish in DC(I am not saying it can't be done with DCC, but it is EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE with DC).Gotta disagree. With DCC you can have your computer do the dispatching, simulating real CTC. It's much cheaper to install some software (like JMRI Pro) on your computer and have it work with DCC than manually installing a real CTC machine (like Tony Koester's AM) and doing it all manually.I would say that from what I've seen, DCC actually makes it easier to run the railroad like a real railroad.
CSX Robert wrote:If you want the dispatcher to have control over where the trains will go, then it is easier and less expensive to accomplish in DC(I am not saying it can't be done with DCC, but it is EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE with DC).
AntonioFP45 wrote:CSX Robert,In prototype railroads, the dispatcher is assigning routes to various trains, adjusting schedeules, etc. If the engineers misunderstand or disobey the dispatcher, near misses or collisions can occur.DCC duplicates this flawlessly. With DC cab controls routings, collisions between opposing trains are almost completely eliminated. But while it will help keep trains safer, imho, it deprives operators of the "feel and flavor" of what prototype dispatchers and locomotive crews have to experience as far as avoiding collisions.
jktrains wrote:...I think people misunderstand what the job of a dispatcher is. Their primary job is not to control track power, but it is to ensure the smooth flow of traffic across the territory, DC or DCC make no difference to the primary job. The dispatchers job is more akin to an orchestra conductor; they try to get eveyone playing together smoothly.jktrains
CSX Robert, I wasn't refering specifically to you. Others in this discussion thread, IMO mistakenly think that the job of the dispatcher is to control the routing of power to blocks on the layout. And then conclude since DCC eliminates the need for block control, it eliminates the need for a dispatcher. You could arguably say that DCC increases the need for a real dispatcher becuase trains can freely operate across the layout. Years ago I had the opportunity to take a tour through the BN dispatching center Galesburg. The center dispatch most of IL, IA, into MO and KY. The etechnology ranged from computerized control with track diagram panels located on the wall to CTC type panels to train order on paper. BY the regardlerss of the method used by the dispatcher, the job was still the same - routing traffic effeciently across their subdivision.
Lee,Not really..One of the members is electrical contractor and let us have them at his cost and he donated several as well...
Also as I stated DCC wouldn't work for the club..We have operational melt downs as it is with DC when ever one of the yard falls behind.This is usually cause by a rookie yardmaster.
I will also mention only 8 out of 47 members wants DCC.After the DCC issue was settled by popular vote 2 of those guys quit..No big lost..They only showed up once or twice a month to operate and every business meeting to push DCC...
Brakie, you have a point.
Cheers.
BRAKIE wrote:Safety Valve,In the 18 years I been in the club and since the rebuild in 92 It is impossible to hear the supposedly cry of "who got my block?" The DS controls ALL main line blocks and the Yardmaster controls the year blocks..Joint blocks-inbound,outbound and runner is govern by red or green LEDs and permission must be obtain from the Yardmaster before the hostler can enter the runner track.Both the Yardmaster and Hostler must obtain permission from the DS to use either the inbound or outbound track.A green signal will appear on the tracks you have permission to use and then you can flip your "YARD/MAIN" switch to "Yard" or "ET(Engine Terminal)" and make your move..Who knows you may have to wait on a inbound!!!After you complete your move you flip the switch back to "main"..If you forget a red light on the CTC board tells the DS and he will radio you and remind you to "normalize" your JTS. I once operated on a home layout that was total chaos because of the poor DC block design..I never did return even when I was ask several times..
Safety Valve,In the 18 years I been in the club and since the rebuild in 92 It is impossible to hear the supposedly cry of "who got my block?" The DS controls ALL main line blocks and the Yardmaster controls the year blocks..Joint blocks-inbound,outbound and runner is govern by red or green LEDs and permission must be obtain from the Yardmaster before the hostler can enter the runner track.Both the Yardmaster and Hostler must obtain permission from the DS to use either the inbound or outbound track.
A green signal will appear on the tracks you have permission to use and then you can flip your "YARD/MAIN" switch to "Yard" or "ET(Engine Terminal)" and make your move..Who knows you may have to wait on a inbound!!!
After you complete your move you flip the switch back to "main"..If you forget a red light on the CTC board tells the DS and he will radio you and remind you to "normalize" your JTS.
I once operated on a home layout that was total chaos because of the poor DC block design..I never did return even when I was ask several times..
I'll bet all those snappy controls cost quite a bit more to install than a DCC system...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
...you can say all the mean stuff you want about me but I am right
Clang..Your suggestions are good ones.(gotta be carefull about the woman though! )
Yes, its when debates get hostile that things head south. Doubtful this type of debate will end anytime soon. They're going on the other forums as well.
But there's no reason to flame you Clang. Remember, as long as we're cordial with each other than we can still agree to disagree. The same guys that disagree on this topic often wind up helping each other on other topics.
I know you and I flamed each other on the other thread but you have to remember that when we type a comment that can be deemed hostile, even if it's not the intent, the response may be so. IE: I've developed a lot of respect for Paul3, yet he an I had some strong disagreements in the past. I had to get into the habit of re-reading his posts and realize that he wasn't being nasty, just that he has a direct, right-to-the-point style of writing that winds up being of great value on the forums.
Clang, I'm saying the following in a friendly manner: I've read some of your past responses. I get the impression that you're a pleasant person with a sharp mind, but heavy on the defensive side. Notice how you ended your post above? It's as if you were "On guard, ready for a tussle". Yet your suggestions come off as good and right to the point. So just keep on posting, but relax your guard a little bit.
High Greens
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"