NeO6874 wrote: ...Anyway, as far as DC/DCC go, until DCC becomes as cheap as DC is *right now* AND there's something "better" than DCC - I think this debate is going to continue... maybe there will even still be some guys who don't use any of the (future) "new fangled" electronic wizardy and continue to run their layouts on straight DC with all of it's complexities, because they have heard the "troubles" with these systems (regardless of the fact that those troubles were from X years in the past when the systems were still brand new)
...Anyway, as far as DC/DCC go, until DCC becomes as cheap as DC is *right now* AND there's something "better" than DCC - I think this debate is going to continue... maybe there will even still be some guys who don't use any of the (future) "new fangled" electronic wizardy and continue to run their layouts on straight DC with all of it's complexities, because they have heard the "troubles" with these systems (regardless of the fact that those troubles were from X years in the past when the systems were still brand new)
I believe the cost factor has already started to equalize, if not completely done so. While certainly not top of the line, I got 4 Bachmann GP-35's (2 CSX for my son, 2 WM's for me) in HO with DCC installed for $30 a piece. In N scale, Bachmann's H-16-44 with an easily installed Digitrax DZ-123 can be had for around $50. Atlas offers DCC-installed N scale locos that typically street for about $90. These prices are not outrageous at all. Sound systems add to the cost now, but if they can put sound chips in $5 greeting cards, it's only a matter of time until the technology brings sound in under $100.
As for operational advantages, DCC completely blows DC cab control away. I can sit on my elevated bar stool with my hand-held controler, and run any train anywhere on the layout. Currently my main line switches are operated by Tortoises that are wired to switch controls, so I have to get up and move about to change a route, but I have the option to chip my turnouts so they can be routed remotely from a CTC office, just like the prototype (you can do this in DC also, but you need a million miles of wire to connect everything.)
As complex as DCC may seem to some, it's real beauty is its utter simplicity.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Awright, I'll throw my two cents into the pot...
I got tired of flipping that directional switch ok? That Tech 4 was good but not THAT good.
One of my BLI steamers developed an attitude problem after a certain number of flips. It's almost as if the computer on it tired of trying to figure out the fist and decide which was it that I wanted to do.
Enter the sidekick. Ok but two buttons is that it?
Bought the PCM Reading T1. No bell or whistle. Learned that I need thier DCC Master with more buttons and more wiring to the analog power pack. BLEAH. Never mind the recent Y6b bundle sale with ANOTHER DCC master... yeesh!
Oh yea just when I thought the world is teetering on the brink of control box add-on's to ananlog power packs I see that Round House added a Hand Held battery OPERATED radio control box for IT's 4-4-0. YIKES!
I think I bought just the one 4-4-0 vowing to throw away any more hand held radio control crap should I buy any more in the future. I applaud thier inventiveness and ability to give people without DCC a easy way to make a locomotive hoot and hollar on command.
Kind of like my car security key ring, press "Unlock" in a BIG parking lot and wonder how many cars I just unlocked within my 50 foot range in that parking deck?
Now my bench looks like a rube goldberg with potential for needing MORE stuff to make DCC operate in Analog. The writing was clear. Stop this insanity now.
Enter the Super Chief. Pack up all the other stuff except the power pack and box it.
Now I can retain control and configure the engines any way I want to. I dont expect to do anything except maybe upgrade to radio. The cost was a one time 700- total including the power supply which is quite strong. I dont expect to buy another DC control system ever again. I might add more throttles or boosters for power districts but that is about it.
Im actually positioning to use my personal computer to reprogram my Reading T1 or have Tony's do it soon because I never liked the crappy whistle on it. But that is a Frankenstien yet to be brought to life.
Now when one of my engines get an attitude, a global reset and coffee time re-programming gets it back in compliance. None of that rube goldberg DC analog add-on push button crap for me.
Dont confuse with DC and DCC. I run dual mode QSI almost exclusively so that I can travel to other people's railroads or clubs in the area and run it on thier rails regardless of what they have as a control system.
And yes this will come up again and again in these forums I dont have a problem with it.
Oh, one last thing. DC is the first thing I learned about running trains and it is unlikely that I will ever stop using that to control pure analog trains, some of which still sneaks around from time to time past it's electronics-loaded/bloated DCC Brothers.
I do pine for the once simple days of a good Blue Box Athearn Desiel with nothing more than a dallop of oil, soldering iron and 12 volt automotive wire to fix problems from time to time.
Or better yet, to be at a big club and see a 5 engine coal train stall with the shouted words "HEY! WHO THE &^%%$ JUST TOOK MY BLOCK?" meaning to take away the electricity that was assigned to that part of track at that moment in time.
What a sight when 20 operators audit thier power settings to find out which was the offending power stealer.
O.K, fair enough. In sticking with the topic................
There have been many DC Club Layouts over the years that have operated successfully. The only one that I've been "up close and personal" with, where I wasn't just a spectator, has been the Suncoast Model Railroad Club layout. I had to drop out temporarily due to job demands, but I'm re-joining this summer. http://www.suncoastmrrc.com There are two layouts, one HO and the other N.
Built years back, the huge HO layout was originally 100% DC with no considerations made for command control. As large as the layout is, only a small number of modelers could run trains at one time due to the DC cab/routing control system. To me, it was a bit intimidating.
In 2005, after some debate the layout was converted to DCC/DC operation. With a flip of a switch, the layout could be operated in either mode. Certain days were designated for DC operation, other days DCC.
Funny thing: On the nights designated for DC operation, the number of DC modelers continued to shrink. Turns out these guys were going DCC as well! Like me, they were turned on by the freedom, special FX, and extras with sound. So when the last guy running DC locomotives would leave, the wall switch was flipped and the remaining modelers would stay, sometimes til 12:00a.m, running in DCC mode. That rarely happened during the pre-DCC days.
BTW: Head on and Rear end collisions did occur. Everyone had to remember that since locomotives could go anywhere-anytime, we were no longer restricted by DC cabs, we had to be alert.........just like prototype railroaders. To us, that made the layout even more fun!
The memebers on tight budgets did what is often suggested: Install one decoder at a time and/or they bought dual mode locomotives. Some of these guys are on social security income. That's why the "I can't afford it" remark just doesn't wash with me. One retired gentleman I spoke to told me he had 100+ locomotives, but he liked DCC so much that he was going to convert his favorites and that many of his other locomotives just sat on a shelf anyway.
After the conversion, and working out a few bugs, more modelelers were able to run trains at one time. Two very knowledgeable modelers held DCC clinics. As a result even the members that were initially hesitant about the conversion are speaking positively of it. Membership numbers also increased. The layout is a joy to run trains on. The only switches I had to flip were turnouts in the yard and the mainline.
IMHO, the really "cool" factor about this whole experience has been seeing a good number of over 50 guys that like DCC. Back in 2003, I often heard stories that "most old timers" are entrenched in DC and can't be bothered. Glad to see that turned out to be a hobby myth.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Back to the original topic and question of this post which had to do with does one type of control system lead to better operations, does one lead to a higher level involvement amongst an operating group.
I've built and operated a mid-sized club layout that was built and wired with standard 6 cab DC. There is a certain level of complexity to the wiring, but once you understand the process it is all repetitive. I've also operated on fairly good sized DCC layouts going back to Onboard command control through to current DCC systems. Both work if planned out properly and everyone understands their assigned duties.
There seems to be some confusion about operations and what purpose a CTC dispatcher serves. On the prototype a dispatcher's job is to route trains through his territory in the most efficient manner possible. He controls what trains run on what tracks, he controls certain mainline turnouts, and he controls, to some degree, the signal indications a engineer sees. If it is dark territory then the trains operates on train orders and track warrants. Power has nothing to do with it.
The same can be done on a model railroad, regardless of the power system. On a DC controlled layout and additional task that may be performed by the dispatcher is the controlling what cab has power to a specific block. A layout with walkaround control can also have that task performed by the road crew. For example, the dispatcher could issue order for train #3 to proceed from AB to CD. With fascia mounted toggles or rotary switches the road crew would then select the blocks necessary to move his train from AB to CD. The dispatcher is responsible for controlling the turnouts and signals that provide him the authority to make such a move. The level of involvement comes from having the dispatcher read the train order to the crew, the crew repeats it back, and like on many prototypes, calls out signals as his movement progresses until he reachs CD and then contacts the dispatcher for additional authority. Throw in a fast clock for timetable operations and you've moved to another level of operation and interaction.
The same scenario applys if a layout used DCC with the exception that the road crew doesn't need to select the blocks needed to move from AB to CD. The distacher would still give the crew authority to move in his territory, perhaps giving the crew a certain amount of time in which to complete the movement. But the process is the same.
I think people misunderstand what the job of a dispatcher is. Their primary job is not to control track power, but it is to ensure the smooth flow of traffic across the territory, DC or DCC make no difference to the primary job. The dispatchers job is more akin to an orchestra conductor; they try to get eveyone playing together smoothly.
jktrains
hminky wrote:<snip>...You can push your trains around the track with one hand, blowing on your wooden whistle and chuffing with your box of Good n' Plenties.
You have 5DCC too!? wow, I thought I was the only one...
OK, OK, so it was LAST year's April Fools ad... but I think it fits here
Anyway, as far as DC/DCC go, until DCC becomes as cheap as DC is *right now* AND there's something "better" than DCC - I think this debate is going to continue... maybe there will even still be some guys who don't use any of the (future) "new fangled" electronic wizardy and continue to run their layouts on straight DC with all of it's complexities, because they have heard the "troubles" with these systems (regardless of the fact that those troubles were from X years in the past when the systems were still brand new)
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
hminky wrote: A small layout is impossible to operate multiple locomotives without DCC. Besides DC is dead, it is only looking for a place to fall down. The advantages of DCC and sound far outway the expense. Wiring for DC is a real pain. Harold
A small layout is impossible to operate multiple locomotives without DCC. Besides DC is dead, it is only looking for a place to fall down. The advantages of DCC and sound far outway the expense. Wiring for DC is a real pain.
Harold
I would like to add my voice to those asking that we go back to the original question and deal with it as limited, or operationalized, by the asker. I worked hard in composing my own response to ensure that I was even-handed, and I tried to figure out what was good and positive about each way of doing trains. In that sense, DC operations have a distinct advantage over DCC operations for those who want to continue to "work" the layout.
I will not change...ever...to DC, even with the advent of Blue Line and potential competitors' products that are meant for the DC guys, but I operate alone, and I like to manage only two locomotives at once on my rather tiny layout. As others have said, that is where DCC shines. It is less hands-on for the guy who doesn't want to be reaching for his panel every 5 seconds. But, DCC can still make a large layout run like a clock. It still takes a coordinatiing mind to manage the traffic, not unlike the real world, and the hog heads, with radio, can follow along and toot horns, ring bells, align turnouts.
I fought converting for years. I was perfectly content with my spider web of wires, and banks of toggle switches. But when I started operating on a large club layout (full operations, huge layout, tons of trains and operators) with DCC, there was simply no turning back.
Within a few years I have chipped all of my engines, even doing the N scale micro surgery myself lately, and am completely satisfied with the results. I bought an MRC Prodigy Advance system on the merit of a very favorable review in MR, and I've never enjoyed operating my layout more than I do now.
I contend that there are two kinds of model railroaders... Those who love DCC, and those who haven't tried it yet.
If you have tried it and didn't like it, you were probably using an early generation Digitrax system, which has a pretty steep learning curve. The MRC system completely eliminates that. Everything you need to do is right on the hand held, including programming, consisting, and toggling between trains. I've got one reversing circuit on a wye track, and I will shortly be automating that.
One of the simple pleasures of DCC is the ability to take photos of your equipment with the lights on!
With the new N scale Bachmann H-16-44 set up for easy conversion to DCC for $35, it's obvious that the market is shifting. I agree, DC cab control will die out with those who cling to it...
Texas Zepher wrote: I think you both missed the point of the post. This is not the typical which is best type question normally asked about DC/DCC.
That may be but it always decays into the same arguments we have seen countless times before.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
hminky wrote: AntonioFP45 wrote: Where's the Bayer Aspirin?Why does a forum continue ... DCvsDCC thread starts. Then the rest of us will have something to care about in the thread.
AntonioFP45 wrote: Where's the Bayer Aspirin?
You guys need to get a life and stop this stuff. Here are my suggestions
Go out for lunch or dinner.
Work on your layout.
Build a freight car kit.
Add some detail.
Go play with your kids.
Be with a woman.
Get a job.
Take a class.
Anything but this dumb never ending argument.
AntonioFP45 wrote: Brakie, 28% O.K, what's the relevance? Is that something to celebrate? If that's a worldwide figure than that's a pretty large amount of modelers with DCC. If that just for the U.S, then the percentage would rise considerably once you add in the Europeon, Asians, South American and Australian markets. Sports cars only make up less than 35% of new and used cars sold in the U.S. Yet, it seems that you can't drive in any North American town without seeing a Mustang, Nissan 300 ZX, or Camaro on some street.Point is.........what does it matter? DC modelers are not in any danger of losing their systems and DCC modelers have a technology that is well supported and is growing.Win-win for both sides. Doesn't anyone still get this?Robin to Batman: "Holy train wrecks, Batman! The Joker's gotta be behind all this!"
Brakie, 28%
O.K, what's the relevance? Is that something to celebrate?
If that's a worldwide figure than that's a pretty large amount of modelers with DCC. If that just for the U.S, then the percentage would rise considerably once you add in the Europeon, Asians, South American and Australian markets.
Sports cars only make up less than 35% of new and used cars sold in the U.S. Yet, it seems that you can't drive in any North American town without seeing a Mustang, Nissan 300 ZX, or Camaro on some street.
Point is.........what does it matter? DC modelers are not in any danger of losing their systems and DCC modelers have a technology that is well supported and is growing.
Win-win for both sides. Doesn't anyone still get this?
Robin to Batman: "Holy train wrecks, Batman! The Joker's gotta be behind all this!"
As Joe Friday would say "Just the facts."
Actually I am all for DCC on large layouts.IF I had a basement size empire I would use DCC wireless.IMHO wireless is the only way to go with DCC.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
AntonioFP45 wrote: Point is.........what does it matter? DC modelers are not in any danger of losing their systems and DCC modelers have a technology that is well supported and is growing.Win-win for both sides.
Win-win for both sides.
Well said.
You said it in the subject - "NOT AGAIN !"
The flies are exhausted. Can we stop beating this poor dead horse.
jecorbett wrote: Sound control is just one of the advantages of DCC and not even the most important one. It is the ability to run trains without controlling the track that gives DCC the edge of DC. I was into DCC several years before I got my first sound equipped loco. You can have a smooth running layout on a DC system. It was done that way for decades and probably will continue to be done that way for several more. I do believe that DCC will soon be the standard for the hobby if it isn't already. Eventually, I believe DC will get phased out. When there is no longer a large enough market for manufacturers to make money by offering locos in both configurations, then DC will become a dinosaur. I don't think that will happen any time soon. As for me, I can't imagine going back to DC.
Sound control is just one of the advantages of DCC and not even the most important one. It is the ability to run trains without controlling the track that gives DCC the edge of DC. I was into DCC several years before I got my first sound equipped loco. You can have a smooth running layout on a DC system. It was done that way for decades and probably will continue to be done that way for several more. I do believe that DCC will soon be the standard for the hobby if it isn't already. Eventually, I believe DC will get phased out. When there is no longer a large enough market for manufacturers to make money by offering locos in both configurations, then DC will become a dinosaur. I don't think that will happen any time soon. As for me, I can't imagine going back to DC.
Last track I had only 28% of the modelers was using DCC.
CSX Robert,
In prototype railroads, the dispatcher is assigning routes to various trains, adjusting schedeules, etc. If the engineers misunderstand or disobey the dispatcher, near misses or collisions can occur.
DCC duplicates this flawlessly. With DC cab controls routings, collisions between opposing trains are almost completely eliminated. But while it will help keep trains safer, imho, it deprives operators of the "feel and flavor" of what prototype dispatchers and locomotive crews have to experience as far as avoiding collisions.
Dave Vollmer wrote: I've seen plenty of layouts where DCC has made operating more interesting rather than less.I would also argue that having to be aware of what blocks are where and what switches to flip may give the train crews more to do, but isn't necessarily more realistic.Fact is, like abortion and stem cells, people seem mostly polarized on this issue, and most will discount out-of-hand any evidence to support the opposite side.Enjoy your slugfest, guys.
I've seen plenty of layouts where DCC has made operating more interesting rather than less.
I would also argue that having to be aware of what blocks are where and what switches to flip may give the train crews more to do, but isn't necessarily more realistic.
Fact is, like abortion and stem cells, people seem mostly polarized on this issue, and most will discount out-of-hand any evidence to support the opposite side.
Enjoy your slugfest, guys.
Dave,I gotta disagree DCC would not improve operations at the club..Heck,we have operation melt downs if ONE yard gets behind using DC.
As far as a computer doing the dispatching get real..The guys at the club would drop you out of the nearest 4th floor window head first just for thinking that way.WE LOVE our CTC board with a human dispatcher..
You see if they mess up they get dropped from the fire escape head first.
Harold said:I only posted early because DC will eventually be gone. Come back in twenty years.
=====================================================================Harold,Sorry DC will not be gone that is why manufacturers had to open up a wider market for their sound equipped locomotive and then you are beginning to see DC Sound Equipped locomotives.Its the signs that count not bias forum opinion.In the 20 years there wil be another control system-probably long before that.
======================================================================
Ray said:
These days, DC is ralistically only appropriate for lone wolves or 4x8 layouts. Anyone who wants to run prototypically correct trains with multiple operators, on even medium sized layouts, needs to ask themselves why they'd even consider being hampered by the limitations of DC.
====================================================================
Ray, What a arrogant statement.I know of 5 DC clubs whose members would find your statement laughable at best.
CSX Robert wrote:If you want the dispatcher to have control over where the trains will go, then it is easier and less expensive to accomplish in DC(I am not saying it can't be done with DCC, but it is EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE with DC).
Gotta disagree. With DCC you can have your computer do the dispatching, simulating real CTC. It's much cheaper to install some software (like JMRI Pro) on your computer and have it work with DCC than manually installing a real CTC machine (like Tony Koester's AM) and doing it all manually.
I would say that from what I've seen, DCC actually makes it easier to run the railroad like a real railroad.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
tomikawaTT wrote:...IMHO, DCC is great if you want to run a locomotive. I'm running a railroad.Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - MZL, analog DC)
I bought an analog Onboard command control system in 1985. I knew then command control with sound was the to go. About 10 years later DCC became standardized. Now twenty years later a large contingent is using DCC with sound. The new Soundtraxx Tsunami makes your steam locomotives run better and sound great. That is why I say in twenty years DCC will be dead.
I have always felt advanced technology is good for the hobby. I built a transistor throttle in 1962 from an article in MR to improve performance. Everyone debated about that issue of better throttles, "What is wrong with the transformer and reheostat?", "Why do we need pulse Power?". Yeh, pulse power was once hi-tech.
Personally I don't care what everyone uses, just advance the new technology. You can push your trains around the track with one hand, blowing on your wooden whistle and chuffing with your box of Good n' Plenties. That is fine with me.
In total agreement Hminky, hence my sarcastic post.
Seems like there is more polarization than realized.
DC is not going to go away. Most modelers over the age of 10 started with DC. Most model locomotives are still sold in this mode.
DCC has become an entrenched, mainstay component of this hobby. It is increasing in popularity and quality, not stagnating as some have claimed. Unlike CTC 16, and the later CTC 80, the support for this technology is now worldwide and, there are a significant number of manufacturers producing the products. DCC's market share is increasing.
These are two systems used to operate TRAINS. A model railroad layout is what we operate TRAINS on. We can operate point to point, roundy-round, in prototypical and non-protoypical fashion with both systems.
We've all stated our own reasons why we prefer one over the other on the DC Club and DCC Club threads. Unfortunately things wind up getting hot sometimes.
I'm in both worlds.
1. Most of my units are DC and I run and tinker them on my narrow shelf set up. My 20 year old MRC 2500 still looks and operates like new. It kicks my old, stubborn DC Athearn BBs with ease.
2. But for me DCC is the way to go. I like the operational freedom, controllable special FX,and sound offered that now allows me to duplicate what I saw in my teen years.
Guys, it seems that things would be so much simpler if we all just supported each other instead of chipping and/or hacking away at each other. How do we do that? We've been doing it..........
A modeler posts a gear problem with an N scale Atlas unit, obviously DC. We respond and help him/her out. Another modeler posts a problem with an HO decoder install in a P2K unit. Modelers with DCC knowledge respond.
So...........can we continue to do this?
AntonioFP45 wrote: ------Gee, look Wally! Daffy and Bugs are at it again!Wabbit Season! Duck Season! Wabbit Season! Duck Season! Where's the Bayer Aspirin?
------Gee, look Wally! Daffy and Bugs are at it again!
Wabbit Season! Duck Season! Wabbit Season! Duck Season!
Where's the Bayer Aspirin?
Why does a forum continue with this crap? It is the same characters. There should be a pool to determine how many posts on this thread before it runs out of wind then a new DCvsDCC thread starts. Then the rest of us will have something to care about in the thread.
I only posted early because DC will eventually be gone. Come back in twenty years.
Give it up guys
Any layout that is planned with some thought to how it will operate, will operate well on either control scheme.
If you are running a layout where only 2 or 3 train sets are operating, DC can, will and has fit the bill for decades. The short commng of DC is the complexity of the wiring and controls needed to support multiple trains on the same track. This is the type system that I cut my teeth on. Wiring is cheap on money but long on time. Since this is a hobby/ passtime; I think that those points are pretty much irrelevant. We do this stuff to pass time, not make a living.
With DCC, you can plug into any existing layout that does not have wyes or reverse loops and run trains. You just have to align all of the block selectors so that there is no shorts on the command station. For reverse loops and wye's, use the existing controls.
If you start with DCC from the inception of your layout, you can make the blocks larger. If you do not plan on running DC control at any time, your blocks can be set up as sections of the layout instead of sections of individual track. The only purpose for blocks in DCC is for trouble shooting power problems.
The real choice is in how many DPDT switches you want to wire, how much money you want to spend and how long you want to take before your layout is operational.
Operationally, DCC is throttle and communication intensive. DC is power routing and communication intensive. The differece is in how you made the control mistake not why you have to back your train up to clear a track for another train. You can have fun with either control system. It's up to you on which one you select.
Bob