Pardon me, but you guys are BOTH being ridiculous. You are over age 8, aren't you?
Of course it's silly to expect a huge manual or set of printed manuals with each decoder (especially such as QSI and Tsunami). I don't think either of you really thinks this is realistic.
But it's also silly to suggest the manufacturer have two products for each decoder, one with manuals and one without.
Finally, it's equally silly to suggest that there be absolutely no printed manuals or instructions. Again, I don't think either of you really thinks this is sensible.
How about a compromise, along the lines of one I suggested earlier:
A realtively small printed manual with each decoder -- covering installation, the basics, noting any differences from the other decoders in the series, and mentioning the following:
The full manual available online. And/or on a CD (like SoundTraxx has for the Tsunami, and it is, or was, free from Litchfield).
A printed version of the full manual, covering the series of decoders, available at the same retailers (stores and/or online), for a nominal extra charge.
Paul,
What's obtuse about expecting to get a manual when I buy a technically advanced product? I was not being at all obtuse. To me, it is unacceptable to have to go "find" a manual, even if it is online. Do ALL decoders program exactly the same? Of course not - some have much simpler functionality than others. If the programming as well as the installation of a decoder is unique, should it then come with both sets of instructions?
As far as the camera and your 30 decoders, you've proved my point for me. YOU don't need the instructions, but folks who are purchasing their first decoders will. The difference is simply that the camera comes with a complete manual, while apparently some decoder manufacturers think their product is complete without providing one.
Since you don't know what a "footprint" is when used in this context, I'll explain. When used in this way, a footprint does NOT address depth. It refers to the shape and size an object requires when sat on some sort of mating surface, in this case probably a desk or counter. If it's made to fit on a curved surface, then the footprint is the contact area and shape on that surface (in that case you might argue that it has depth).
The idea of having manual and non-manual decoder packages for sale is not at all ridiculous (any more than it's ridiculous for Kellog to make more than one size of cereal box). How many different decoders does Digitrax (since you're stuck on them as your example) make? Let's go wild and say a couple hundred. Adding that many SKUs can be done over time, and is not at all too burdensome. More burden than not doing it, sure, but not the backbreaking effort you imply.
You keep pointing out that the manuals are available online. OK. So why include ANYTHING with the decoder, other than maybe a note on the packaging that says "See installation and use instructions at Digitrax,com?" Same for the system, throttles, etc. That's the logical progression. If it works okay for decoder programming, why not installation? Why not throttle usage? Radio upgrade? Entire system package? (No, I'm not being snide. Where do you draw the line and expect an enclosed manual, and why?)
One of your big arguments for web-only manuals seems to be that even if you have to go to your local library, you can get access. Then in your last post you say to keep it on the computer to avoid having to pay to print it out. Running back and forth to the library to read each step of the manual will get very time-consuming (and exhausting).
As far as my calling your statements that people can go to the library to get the info and print it out there (at their not-inconsequential expense) pathetic - I probably should not have done so. The snideness and condescending attitude in that paragraph got the better of me. I carefully avoided responding in kind in the rest of my post; I probably should have there as well.
I hope we can continue to discuss this in a mature manner. To that end, if my "pathetic" comment was offensive, I apologize.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
JKtrains, at least now we know why you came over as so anti-Digitrax. It has been coming over loud and clear in your posts this month, no matter how hard you tried to hide it. I can't say I blame you for being annoyed by-the-way.
Have you called them? Are the instructions just not available, or just not up on the web yet?
It really is no excuse, but time-after-time we seem to be presented with examples of small companies in our hobby really struggling to manage quite rapid growth. Incredible delays in the release of virtually anything DCC related from NCE, Soundtraxx, QSI and Digitrax. False starts with new products.
In an effort to help, do the following links provide you with any information you did not already have?
http://www.digitrax.com/soundcvs.php Sound CV table for Sound FX decoders
http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/sfxAC4400.pdf manual for the virtually identical decoder.
I don't think it is any clearer on the function of the extra wires. What has Digitrax said in response to questions about them? I'm not one to sit around and wait for 3 months, I would have been on the phone until I got an answer.
The other comment I would make is that I do think that DCC companies are very reliant on the dealer network. It is one of the reasons that the Tony's, Litchfield Stations, Loy's Toys and others have carved out nice niches for themselves. They can provide expert advice and support in these types of situations. Anyway, keep us posted on progress. I have been holding off buying any of the new sound decoders from any of the vendors, taking a bit of a wait and see attitude to see what washes out.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Paul3,
So as not to be obtuse, lets stick to one specific example. I purchased a SDH104K1C+FN04K1 decoder for a Kato F40PH last December. According to you I should be able to go to the Digitrax website, find the decoder, read the manual for it and know how to program it. WELL, I've done that. You know what the website says as for support documentation for that specific decoder - "coming soon". How long should I wait?? Its been 3 months! Shouldn't they have written the manual before starting to sell the darn things! Is that too much to ask? Is it too much to ask to have a complete manual when I spent nearly $80 on the thing? Oh yeah, I look on the Digitrax website like you suggested. The 78 page decoder manual says nothing about sound decoders, nothing about changing the volume of each effect, what CV controls it, what the CV range is etc etc etc. So much for their documentation library being up to date. Next great suggestion??? The decoder image says "coming soon". If they selling the things shouldn;t they be able to have an image of it on the website. The decoder has 8 wires coming off of it. The manual with the decoder doesn't describe what the wires are for. Should I just try a trial & error method to determine what wires is for what function? Just cut them off and forget about adding more prototypical detail?
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_sdh104k1ccombo.php
When you buy an alarm clock radio, don;t you expect it to include operating instruction? How many of these have you purchased? Even the $20-$30 ones include instructions.
jktrains
BTW, I own 4 digital cameras. Each of them come with complete manuals an how to operate them. Not once in the manual to it suggest going to their respective websites to download a more complete version of the manual. They also came with spanish and french language versions. What's your response going to be when people suggest the need for mfgs to include a spanish version of the manual with decoders?
Brunton wrote:
Talk about trying to be difficult!
Yes, you were being difficult. IOW, deliberately obtuse. Extrapolating from the idea that a 78 (or 35) page manual should not be included with every decoder into the idea that no installation instructions unique to that decoder should be included either is being difficult. It's called going to the extreme to attempt to make a point, and is not a good debating technique.
Yes, installation instructions are different than use instructions. But if you don't have the latter, the former isn't really going to do much for you. Would a high performance digital camera be much use to you if all the manual it came with told you how to install the software on the computer that downloads the pictures, leaving you with no idea how to actually use the camera? If you have already owned high-end cameras you might figure some of it out on your own. Whether someone makes eight different versions of a decoder or not is irrelevant. No matter which one I buy, I'm gonna want to be able program it. Wouldn't you? So in answer to your first question, no I don't see the difference.
How many digital cameras do you own? I own one. At the same time, I own some 30+ decoders. See the difference now?
If it's that complex, you better believe I want a manual to come with it!
If you didn't know that it was that complex, then how do you know how big such a manual should even be?
To the guy who is just learning, none of it would be wasted. Perhaps you don't understand the term "form factor." It's matching the footprint size of a complete manual with what is already supplied. Since you say the size of the instructions that come with the decoder is 8.5 X 5.5 (8.5X11 folder over), then the manual could be printed with that same footprint. It may take more pages than an 8.5X11 format, but it would fit the same footprint. I guess you ignored my suggestion that the decoders be packaged both with and without manuals because that didn't support your argument that nobody should get a manual, huh?
Does this footprint of yours have depth? If you just took the Digitrax decoder CV part of the manual (35 pages) and converted it to 8.5" x 5.5", that would take an additional 9 sheets of paper.
As for your idea to have two forms of each decoder, that's ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that they double the SKU count for all Digitrax decoders? Do you have any idea of the headaches that would cause for all involved, from Digitrax to the LHS to the end user? You realize that the prices would be different, too. How many would Digitrax have to make of "complete decoder manual included" vs. "decoder only" packages? What would LHS's do with the overages? What would end users do if all that's left are "decoder only" or "decoder w/ manual" at said LHS?
The implication being that noone who buys a non-Digitrax system should be buying Digitrax decoders? Or perhaps that anyone with a non-Digitrax system shouldn't expect Digitrax to tell them how to use the Digitrax products they do buy (sort of a punishment for not buying Digitrax to start with, maybe)?
Or, they could read the manual that comes with the decoder that tells them, several times, to read the Digitrax Decoder Manual, available free online at Digitrax.com.
If I have to pay, say 5 cents per sheet to print out a manual, then (according to your own number), the manual costs me an additional $1.75 to obtain, and that's about the cost of most home ink-jet printers per page. Many libraries charge 10 cents or more a page for prints. I'd rather pay that up front, to avoid the hassle of having to go to the library to make the prints in the first place. Maybe YOUR time is valueless; mine isn't. And if I have the option of buying the decoder with or without manual, then I'm not wasting any paper or money at all, am I?
Or, if you keep the manual on the computer, it won't waste paper at all or cost you a dime. Or, you could buy a printed manual from Digitrax.
This is so pathetic it doesn't even deserve an answer, other than to say that it seems obvious now that you couldn't care less about anyone just starting out in the realm of DCC and who may have very limited knowledge of the subject. If they don't know, that's their tough luck, eh?
If it's so "pathetic", then why are you even posting at all? My point is that the only people who would buy your "decoder w/ complete decoder manual" are non-Digitrax DCC owners who can't connect to the internet or won't get a manual from Digitrax by mail. That's not too many, IMHO. And if you want to go with this "decoder w/ complete decoder manual" vs. "decoder only" packages, then how many people are going to opt for the no doubt more expensive "decoder w/ complete decoder manual"? Answer: those that don't have Digitrax, don't want to download a free pdf file, and have not already purchased one of these decoders before that has this manual in it.
As for the rest of your point, personally, if someone can't take the time and effort to read the manual that came with the decoder (that states, several times, to look in the Digitrax Decoder Manual for help), then yeah, I guess you're right that I don't have much sympathy for them.
From page 2 of the DH163D instructions:See the Digitrax Decoder Manual for complete decoder test procedures, installationinstructions, programming and technical information. Digitrax manuals and instructions are updated periodically. Please visit www.digitrax.com for the latest versions, technical updates and additional locomotive-specific installation instructions.Oh, and to poke a hole in your logic here, a newbie just starting out with DCC won't be starting with advanced decoder features. It's like someone buying a computer for the first time and expecting them to write C++ code the first time they turn it on. Not happenin'.
So in conclusion: I'm being difficult? When it comes to how I spend my money, you better believe I am! When I buy a product, I expect at least basic instruction on how to USE it. Not just install it ("plug the TV in and hook up the cable"), but really use it ("The power button on the remote..." "The channel buttons..." "The brightness controls..." and so on).
You don't want "basic instructions". You want "complete" full decoder instructions for advanced features. Hardly "basic" (things like address, momentum, and Vstart, Vmid, and Vmax...which are all covered in the current DH163 installation manual). And next time you try to pick a similar situation (TVs?), try to choose something that you will own more than 30 (or 50, or 100). Unless you own more than a dozen TV's, I don't think your example works too well.
jktrains,Check out this link, it's the pdf of the print out that comes with the DH163D decoder:
http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/dh163d.pdf
Note that it does tell how to do basic things like:Program an AddressVstartVmidVmaxCV3 - accel momentumCV4 - decel momentumSwitching speed option with F6Transponding off/onDecoder ResetThere are also two wiring digrams showing what wire or contact does what.
Also, you saying "why include any instructions at all?" is being just as deliberately obtuse as Brunton.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Mark,
Your comments are exactly what I meant. The instructions are not just for installing a decoder, but more importantly for programming the decoder. The instructions that come with a decoder should at least tell the purchaser how to program basic function of the decoder such as start, kick, midpoint, maximum or for lighting effects. For example, the CV is different for a bulb than for a LED. Anoother thing that should be in every instruction sheet with a decoder is what conecctions on the board are for what functions. I was at a local train show on Sunday and talked to a vendor who only sold DCC and he told me that the extra wires on a Digitrax sound decoder do nothing. No where in the sheets with the decoder does it say that. He told me he found this out at a retailer training session in Milwaukee WI. This from a person does custom installation and programming of decoders, especially sound decoders such has Tsunamis
The point trying to be made is that there should be certain info in the packaging of the decoder, D decoders I would classify as lacking. Also, logically, a sound decoder, or sound equipped loco, will have a bigger set of instructions.
Following the logic of others, when you buy a BLI sound loco why should they include a operating manual. It's just adds to the cost, - printing, weight for shipping, writing the manual, paying someone to write the manual etc. - its just redundant, especially if I already own a BLI. Since anyone can get it off the internet, why include them? Following this logic where does it stop. No instructions in a P2K, Intermountain, Branchline kit? I already own a dozen of them, so why including instructions since they've been on the market for years, everyone must surely already have a set of instructions that need them.
Paul3 wrote: Brunton,Now you are just being difficult. Paul A. Cutler III************
Brunton,Now you are just being difficult.
Paul A. Cutler III************
Installation instructions are a tad different then "how to program every last possible thing with this decoder" instructions. Digitrax makes 8 different versions of the DH163 decoder, and therefore there are 8 different installation instructions. But they all have the exact same programming instructions. See the difference?
Do you have any idea how many applicable CV's there are for a DH163 decoder? 72. And CV29 has 32 possible entries alone. Special FX CV's have 55 possible entries. And that's not getting into function remapping, torque compensation, speed tables, or transponding. The current Digitrax decoder manual takes 35 pages to explain the above.
This would be much larger than the 8.5" x 11" piece of folded card stock that currently comes with Digitrax decoders (1/4 of which, BTW, is also the packaging telling the paying public what they are buying, and another chunk is how to install said decoder). How many pages could you squeeze the 35 pages Digitrax is currently using down to? 24? 16? Good luck. And how much would that cost? How much paper would be wasted?
BTW, anyone who buys a Digitrax system gets the Decoder Manual included. So for any Digtrax owner, this booklet of yours would be redundant.
Also, most any public library has a free connection to the web. Printouts vary by library, but downloading is free. And if they don't know how to use a computer, maybe they should ask someone who does (like the librarian). Or maybe they can write to Digtrax and get a printed manual from them. Ignorance is no excuse.
So far, all I can see this booklet of yours benefitting are those model railroaders that own a non-Digitrax DCC system that buy Digitrax decoders that don't have an internet connection, a public library with an internet connection, or the ability to contact Digitrax and arrange to have a manual sent to them. I don't see that as very many people, do you?
Brunton,Now you are just being difficult. Installation instructions are a tad different then "how to program every last possible thing with this decoder" instructions. Digitrax makes 8 different versions of the DH163 decoder, and therefore there are 8 different installation instructions. But they all have the exact same programming instructions. See the difference?
simon1966 wrote:Mark, the manual in question is a 78 page spiral-bound manual with a cover. ... It costs considerably more than pennies and would add more than pennies to the transportation cost of the decoder. Having seen how hobby shops hold decoders in inventory, it would also make them harder for hobby shops to stock them. In a market that is unquestionably price sensitive, it would be commercial suicide to include this manual, especially considering that for the vast majority it would be redundant. Everything you need to know to get one of these decoders is installed is included in the supplied documentation. Mark, perhaps you would be willing to pay a dollar or two more for a Digitrax decoder if it had this manual, but time after time all one reads on here and other forums are questions about getting lower cost decoders. If you needed to equip 10 locomotives with decoders would you be willing to pay $20 more (more than the cost of 1 decoder) to get 10 copies of the same 78 page manual? It is not exactly as secret that this additional information is available on the web site for those that want and need it.
But let's define "manual" in this context. I'm not talking about a full tutorial on DCC and how it all works - I'm talking about including CV information, primarily - what each one controls and what each of the various values for each CV does. For example, explaining that certain CVs set the speed table, what the value range is for those CVs, and generall how those values work (along the lines of "increasing the value will increase the maximum motor output voltage" or "decreasing the minimum value will decrease the starting voltage" or something similar. Another example: explaining which values set in another CV selects which flash pattern in specific lighting functions. Most decoders I've purchased already have that information - only a few haven't. Those few should.
As for the cost of including the manual - bulk printing is cheap. Maybe not pennies (that was for illustration), but for not more than just a few nickles a complete manual for using the product could be included with the product. It doesn't have to be a hard bound book. It also can be a relatively small form factor booklet that takes up little more space than the Digitrax decoder packages do now. And shipping would be only pennies more for the few ounces of additional pages in the manual. Sound decoders are much more complex, so their manuals should be as much larger as is required to explain their functions and programming options.
Maybe the thing to do is sell the decoders with the option of getting a thorough manual with it or not. That way you can buy a full-up manual with the first decoder, then get additional decoders without. Yeah, now we have two stock numbers instead of one, but at least the manuals on how to use the product are available with the product. What a radiacal idea! As far as the instructions being available on the web - believe it or not, not every model railroader, and I'd venture to say that not even every DCC-using model railroader, has an internet connection, or likes to use the web. As for it being redundant for the majority - true. Your implication seems to be that it's just too bad for those in the minority for whom it wouldn't be redundant.
Bottom line - if the purchaser wants to opt out of receiving documentation for their purchase, fine. It should still be available with such a complex product as a DCC decoder if they want it.
rrinker wrote:Including EVERYTHING with EVERY decoder is just silly. That would mean a new manual every time they make a different decoder just to fit a specific shape in a particular loco, when in reality the ONLY thing that changes is the specific installation information, which is what they DO provide with every decoder.
One important thing you're missing - Fine, the manuals cover specific installation information. But including everything isn't at all silly to the person who doesn't know everything that hasn't changed. But I guess that's just too bad for him/her, huh?
Yes, it would be nice to have printed version available, although once I set up the decoder I've hardly even looked at it. I'm really torn on the idea of printed vs online. I guess because I have a laptop that I run DecoderPro on I can have the electronic version available right at my fingertips, no running upstairs to the computer to look something up. I do have the printed version of the Digitrax decoder manual, but most of the time I just look up the electronic version - very handy when replying to a question on a forum like this, I can simply click open the PDF file and copy the required information.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker wrote:>>> snip <<< The sound decoders get even better. The FULL manual for the QSI decoders used in BLI, Atlas, and P2K locos totals somewhere around 500+ pages if you include the DC and DCC manuals. NO ONE is going to include a novel-length book with their equipment, not at the prices they charge. Like regular decoders, 90% of the people won't even care about every single CV and detailed explanations of it. They want to install the decoder, set an address, and perhaps adjust volume. For those that want the details, the manuals are available. --Randy
>>> snip <<<
The sound decoders get even better. The FULL manual for the QSI decoders used in BLI, Atlas, and P2K locos totals somewhere around 500+ pages if you include the DC and DCC manuals. NO ONE is going to include a novel-length book with their equipment, not at the prices they charge. Like regular decoders, 90% of the people won't even care about every single CV and detailed explanations of it. They want to install the decoder, set an address, and perhaps adjust volume. For those that want the details, the manuals are available.
Pardon me for jumping in here, but I do agree with Randy, mostly. The Tsunami manuals, too, are quite lengthy, although not as massive as the QSIs. As I have 6 Tsunamis and 7 QSIs, I sure don't want multiple copies of big manuals, especially as they'd be included in the cost of each product.
My one minor gripe here, however, is that neither SoundTraxx nor QSI has a printed version available, even at extra cost. That's an option I'd like in some cases, and I suspect others would, too.
I'm reminded of the 2004 PH Pro command station major upgrade by NCE. The chip and a few pages to insert in the existing manual were available for $5 (which can't even have covered their mailing cost!). And the full, new version of the manual is available online. But they also included the option of a nice new printed version for an extra $15, which I bought and was well worth it.
jktrains wrote:Randy,You've confirmed exactly what I've said. The manual that comes with the decoder is inadequate. If I don't have a Digitrax system then I won't have a their 'universal' decoder manual to explain everything. Why should I need to go to their website to access what is consider by other mfgs to be basic information? Take a look at the manuals that come with TCS or NCE decoders. They explain not only installation, but programming of the decoder, including exacting how to program lighting functions like beacons or ditch lights and what value resistors to use for different type bulbs.Is this some kind of marketing ploy by Digitrax? "Let's not including everything the purchaser needs when we sell them our products so they have to keep coming back to our website for info so we can constantly remind them of what we sell" ??????????jktrains
Randy,
You've confirmed exactly what I've said. The manual that comes with the decoder is inadequate. If I don't have a Digitrax system then I won't have a their 'universal' decoder manual to explain everything. Why should I need to go to their website to access what is consider by other mfgs to be basic information? Take a look at the manuals that come with TCS or NCE decoders. They explain not only installation, but programming of the decoder, including exacting how to program lighting functions like beacons or ditch lights and what value resistors to use for different type bulbs.
Is this some kind of marketing ploy by Digitrax? "Let's not including everything the purchaser needs when we sell them our products so they have to keep coming back to our website for info so we can constantly remind them of what we sell" ??????????
Including EVERYTHING with EVERY decoder is just silly. That would mean a new manual every time they make a different decoder just to fit a specific shape in a particular loco, when in reality the ONLY thing that changes is the specific installation information, which is what they DO provide with every decoder.
I use plenty of NCE and TCS decoders, and while they have LISTINGS of all CVs they do NOT explain them with any detail. NCE has several CVs that control the torque compensation. They tell you the default, and suggest some values, but give no information on how to tune them. Digitrax devotes a couple of pages in their manual to tuning their back-emf parameters, as do others.
JK,
In this day and age having extended reference manuals on the web, or other digital media is not exactly an unusual practice. Some people consider it to be a valuable service offered to customers. Knowing what it costs to print manuals of this size and depth (it is 78 pages long!) Digitrax has taken the decision to place this information on the web, thus enabling them to keep prices competitive by not having to print it and ship it with every decoder. If you have a Digitrax command station this manual came with the system. If not, then yes you do have to go to the web to download it. I have about 10 Digitrax decoders, I don't need 10 copies of the manual, 9 of them would have ended up in the trash. Having purchased many NCE and TCS decoders the short photo copied documnent that comes with each of them certainly has more depth than that which comes with the Digitrax decoder, but no-where near the depth of info that is presented in the decoder manual on the web.
The data is available, it is easily accessible, it is the way that they have chosen to do it. It saves cost and a considerable waste of paper and print resources. Perhaps not the way you would do it, but a perfectly valid and common practice.
For what it is worth, Digitrax has just improved another evil marketing ploy to drive people to their web site called the Tech Support Depot http://www.digitrax.com/kb/ This covers all the new systems as well as all the older obsoleted systems. This on-line support resource is second to none IMO.
Have you totally avoided the Digitrax Decoder Manual? Because all the decoders in a signle series are pretty much identical except for form factor (ie, this one has wires ending in an 8 pin plug, this one is shaped liek the board in a Kato loco, etc) and the programming is identical across a given series of decoders (all DH163 series decoders have the same firmware), Digitrax has a single manual with all the decoder programming options listed. They include a copy with their systems, but it is also available to download from the Digitrax site. This covers al thenfo as far as function remapping, special effects, etc. The manuals included with the decoders are meant to cover only the specifics of installing that specific decoder.
Perhaps the system manuals have improved some time, but the decoder manuals are still basically useless. They don't explain how to actually program the decoder. They typically say something like "see the system manual for programing CVs" Let alone trying to figure out hex. I recently installed a Digitrax sound decoder in a Kato F40PH. Its a drop in installation - remove the old board install the decoder, press the speaker into its housing and your done. Except there are about a dozen loose wire coming out the harness, orange, blue, purple, brown etc. No where in the manual does in explain which function controls which wire. I'd like to install other special effects such as lighted number boards, strobe lights or ditch lights there is nothing in the manual to help. Throw that at a newbie and I can see where they'd get lost and intimidated.
The poor manuals, especially in comparison to TCS and NCE and a primary reason I avoid buying D decoders unless there is no other good option like the F40PH. As a consumer, why should I then need to good to the internet to look up something that everyother mfg puts in their instructions?
simon1966 wrote: I think also there are some red-flag type issues that are trigger points. Digitrax deservedly has a reputation for terrible manuals. The Zephyr manual is a vast improvement over the Super Empire Builder(the two I have), but I would not classify either of them as Shakespeare. I'm not a big manual reader and rarely if ever referred to the technical documentation once I was up and running so the manual quality has not been a big deal for me. IMO if you want to give Digitrax a fair shake during a purchase decision the very last thing you should do is make a decision based on the manual as this will not give you a good impression of how easy the system is to actually run.
I think also there are some red-flag type issues that are trigger points. Digitrax deservedly has a reputation for terrible manuals. The Zephyr manual is a vast improvement over the Super Empire Builder(the two I have), but I would not classify either of them as Shakespeare. I'm not a big manual reader and rarely if ever referred to the technical documentation once I was up and running so the manual quality has not been a big deal for me. IMO if you want to give Digitrax a fair shake during a purchase decision the very last thing you should do is make a decision based on the manual as this will not give you a good impression of how easy the system is to actually run.
This is interesting. I am a manual reader. I've read the Chief and Zepher manuals as well as the PowerCab manual. And guess what? I thought the Digitrax manuals were great and inititially got confused with PowerCab's. How weird is that? Based on my "manual experience" I would buy Digitrax! But of course there's a lot more to it than that.
Initially I usually read a manual completely, then use the product for awhile, and then later read the manual again. It's surprising how many little things I pick up the second time that help me use the system better.
Another thing......Digitrax vs NCE websites. The D website is really well done. Everything is spelled out clearly. It's easy to see how everything fits together, how to upgrade, and has much helpful info. Again, NCE's website confused me. I had to call them to figure out some things. It just didn't seem clear as to what products did what and how they fit with each other.
But all of this aside, there should be no hostility between these companies users. They both do great and fun things. We just need to help each other figure out which works best for our unique situation.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
jktrains,Digitrax had some pretty hard to understand manuals 10 years ago. They still have that stigma even tho' the latest manuals are much, much improved. The Digitrax owners have been pestering them to improve these manuals for years, and Digitrax has responded with better ones. They just aren't perfect. For example, the Zephyr manual is rather muddy with MU'ing locos IMHO.
I also don't know how much of the "bad manual" stigma is related to the poor overall design of the DT100 and UT1 throttles of that era. These had a lot of "nested" commands that made memorizing all the things to do difficult at best. For example, to turn on F6 you had to fit the F0/Func button once, then hold down the F0/Func button while hitting the right directional arrow/F6 button. Or to MU, you had to hit the Mode button twice, then the "+" button. Etc.Digitrax manuals seemed to get better in folks eyes around the same time that the DT400 throttles came out.
From Simon}
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For most other purchases, the buyer expects to receive a manual that explains how to install and operate whatever it is they bought. They expect a manual that can be read and understood. Why is it that the consumer for DCC puts up with less than they would for a DVD player for example? As Simon points out, Digitrax specifically is known for poorly written manuals. The question should be was does the consumer continue to allow D to put out poor manuals and why don't they demand better manuals, not just for systems but for decoders and other components?
I've conducted clinics at local shows and talked to too many people who believe that if they purchase a system at their LHS, that if they have problems in figuring things out that they can simple call the lHS and they will be able to fix it over the phone. My experince is that the people in the LHS are not nearly as knowledgeable about the systems they sell and the pruchaser thinks. The purchaser can always call the manufacturer, but what about late at night or on a Saturday morning. Good luck.
That's why my first recommendation is to always read the manual online as part of the analysis and comparison of various systems. I read technical stuff everyday for a living. IMHO your first source for answers should be the manual that came with the product, not someone at the end of the phone.
I'm the kind of guy who does read the manual, and refers to it later on. I start with the basics to get started, but will then go back to it. I want to know, eventually, all the features. I may not use some of them, but I want to know what's there.
I've also done some tech writing, so I have an idea how difficult it is.
I've never seen any Digitrax manuals, or the ProCab manual, but I'm very impressed with the PH Pro manual. I find it very clear, accurate, and complete.
As with all the other features, that may or may not be important to you, but if it is, you won't go wrong with NCE.
simon1966,Do you really want Shakespeare writing DCC manuals?"Alas, poor decoder. I knew it well, Horatio."
"Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of short circuits, or by removing the problem, end them."
"A throttle. A throttle! My kingdom for a throttle!"
And so on.
simon1966 wrote: Are the principals of NCE and Digitrax openly hostile to each other?
Are the principals of NCE and Digitrax openly hostile to each other?
I hesitate to bring this up but I've been wondering about it and maybe this is the appropriate thead for it.
Someone knowledgeable in the DCC industry told me that there are "plants" on some forums whose purpose it is to tout their product and belittle other products. Does this really happen? I'd like to think not, but yet some posts make you wonder.
jktrains wrote: As is the case with a lot of these discussion, an individuals biases towards one system or another leads them to interpret a post towards or against that bias, hence starting the flames a burnin'.jktrains
As is the case with a lot of these discussion, an individuals biases towards one system or another leads them to interpret a post towards or against that bias, hence starting the flames a burnin'.
That is a really good point and illustrates one of the shortcomings of this written format. I have to say that I totally interpreted your post as a dig against D. In the past, myself and others have been guilty of responding to such posts in a defensive way. In some strange way the thread has gone full circle and I have illustrated myself the very issue that I was enquiring about in the first place.
As to the 'proprietary' nature of Loconet - there is a free personal edition which can accomplish just about anything you want to do and costs you nothing - in fact you can download the document from the Digitrax web site. The only thing 'proprietary' is the actual command sequences, the electrical specs for the bus are freely stated.
You only need to license Loconet if you intend to produce commercial products. This hasn't hampered the development of Loconet compatible products - in fact there are MORE third party options for Loconet than any other system. Including plenty fo products that compete directly with ones that Digitrax offers. I had the chance to speak to one of these third parties at length and while I can't say the exact cost of these royalties, it comes out to pennies (as in less than 10) per device that retaisl for $80. No way is Digitrax going to get rich on licening schemes like this. At the same time, the JMRI project has a full implementation of Loconet and there AJ gave his blessing.
OK, since this is becoming a very popular thread, I thought I might as well give my 2 cents worth!
I do think it's like Apple and PC in a sense. One is for 'serious' business use and with the 'bulletproof' and 'It Ain't Broken, don't fix it' philosophy and one with all the latest improvement and aim to have the 'fun' element in their design philosophy. Needless to say, Digitrax is the PC of the two.
IMHO, Digitrax is a bulletproof system and it's somewhat ancient with regars to the latest NMRA standards but it's popular with clubs because of it's expansion potential and since it's popular with clubs, it gets trickle down to individual members and the people they influence. Where as NCE is the more advanced of the 2 in terms of the latest trend and standards and I would say it's more fun to use and somewhat easier as well and I think it's better for lonewolves and beginners/intermediates.
They both great companies with excellent products either a DCC system or decoders but I seriously find the Digitrax's system way too complicated even for an electrical engineer. I think for the majority of the emerging market and the current trend, I think the dark horse is MRC and I think they their money on the right number! With DCC getting more popular, their system is cheap, complete and simple and with the technology advancements, people aren't replying on Club's advice as much as what it used to be so people will slowly discover the new world with MRC or the new Bachmann Nemesis (spelling?)!
simon1966 wrote: jktrains wrote:Personally, my issue centers around those forum members who what to espouse on the benefits of their favorite system and the shortcomings of the other system, yet have no experience using the other system. These people are the worst ones to provide advice or feedback to someone who posts the question about which system to buy. Instead of providing an unbiased perspective, these people are out to justify why they chose what they did, and to stroke their ego by looking like they know it all.When I offer info about D vs NCE it comes from first hand knowledge of using each system, and not just once, but on multiple occasions, and from seeing new modelers use both systems.My primary advice to anyone considering the purchase of a DCC system is to download the manual for the various systems and read them thoroughly and answer the following questionsCan you understand what your reading, even without having the hardware in front of you?Is the manual complete and thorough in its explanations?Determine what DCC features you plan on utilizing? Does the system support these features?The last factor should be cost. Why? Because you're going to use the system for the life of your pike. Consider it an investment, not an expense. It doesn't matter how nice your locos are and how much you spent on them, you won't enjoy them if you can't control them.jktrainsJK, I hear where you are coming from, but unfortunately there are very few people that have really used both systems to the extent that they have really good first hand experience. I have to say that I interpret what you write as being, "I'm the only one qualified to offer an opinion based on my experience with both systems, and NCE is the clear choice". I have no issue at all with you forming that opinion at all, NCE makes a great system and a worthy choice for any modeller. But there is an undertone to the message that implies the very biased behaviour that you claim to dislike so much.Comments like "or even worse when the purchaser realizes that what they bought does perform up to expectations or that he can't get it to operate correctly." and "It doesn't matter how nice your locos are and how much you spent on them, you won't enjoy them if you can't control them." Since these are referring to "the other choice" they clearly imply that a Digitrax user will be faced with significant problems. Often I think it is this kind of subtle inflammatory off-the-cuff inference that causes a lot of the discord, because for most D users that is not their experience at all. Anyway, I think this is important, because the very unbiased credibility that you have is undermined by such.I certainly don't want to start the very flame out I was asking about at the start, but I think that having an opinion is one thing, apparently denigrating the opposing option no matter how subtly can, and often will, get a reaction.
jktrains wrote:Personally, my issue centers around those forum members who what to espouse on the benefits of their favorite system and the shortcomings of the other system, yet have no experience using the other system. These people are the worst ones to provide advice or feedback to someone who posts the question about which system to buy. Instead of providing an unbiased perspective, these people are out to justify why they chose what they did, and to stroke their ego by looking like they know it all.When I offer info about D vs NCE it comes from first hand knowledge of using each system, and not just once, but on multiple occasions, and from seeing new modelers use both systems.My primary advice to anyone considering the purchase of a DCC system is to download the manual for the various systems and read them thoroughly and answer the following questionsCan you understand what your reading, even without having the hardware in front of you?Is the manual complete and thorough in its explanations?Determine what DCC features you plan on utilizing? Does the system support these features?The last factor should be cost. Why? Because you're going to use the system for the life of your pike. Consider it an investment, not an expense. It doesn't matter how nice your locos are and how much you spent on them, you won't enjoy them if you can't control them.jktrains
Personally, my issue centers around those forum members who what to espouse on the benefits of their favorite system and the shortcomings of the other system, yet have no experience using the other system. These people are the worst ones to provide advice or feedback to someone who posts the question about which system to buy. Instead of providing an unbiased perspective, these people are out to justify why they chose what they did, and to stroke their ego by looking like they know it all.
When I offer info about D vs NCE it comes from first hand knowledge of using each system, and not just once, but on multiple occasions, and from seeing new modelers use both systems.
My primary advice to anyone considering the purchase of a DCC system is to download the manual for the various systems and read them thoroughly and answer the following questions
The last factor should be cost. Why? Because you're going to use the system for the life of your pike. Consider it an investment, not an expense. It doesn't matter how nice your locos are and how much you spent on them, you won't enjoy them if you can't control them.
JK, I hear where you are coming from, but unfortunately there are very few people that have really used both systems to the extent that they have really good first hand experience. I have to say that I interpret what you write as being, "I'm the only one qualified to offer an opinion based on my experience with both systems, and NCE is the clear choice". I have no issue at all with you forming that opinion at all, NCE makes a great system and a worthy choice for any modeller. But there is an undertone to the message that implies the very biased behaviour that you claim to dislike so much.
Comments like "or even worse when the purchaser realizes that what they bought does perform up to expectations or that he can't get it to operate correctly." and "It doesn't matter how nice your locos are and how much you spent on them, you won't enjoy them if you can't control them." Since these are referring to "the other choice" they clearly imply that a Digitrax user will be faced with significant problems. Often I think it is this kind of subtle inflammatory off-the-cuff inference that causes a lot of the discord, because for most D users that is not their experience at all. Anyway, I think this is important, because the very unbiased credibility that you have is undermined by such.
I certainly don't want to start the very flame out I was asking about at the start, but I think that having an opinion is one thing, apparently denigrating the opposing option no matter how subtly can, and often will, get a reaction.
Simon - nowhere in post does it mention if I have one system or the other. It does not mention a bias towards any system.
While a person can give their opinion about a particular system, if the discussion or the question asked has to do with one vs. the other system, I don't feel that a person who hasn't used both can properly address the question. If they only have experience with one manufacturer's system or a specific model of DCC, then the person should clearly state that they are not familar with such and such or that they have only used a specific system.
I've used both Digitrax, NCE and Prodigy (for a short period, but not enough to speak authoritatively) on multiple occassions. I've also seen others use the system and the questions they've asked and problems they've had in using all of them. So from that perspective I have at least some basis to respond to a persons questions about one vs the other.
The second part regarding getting their system to perform, you assumed were directed to D users. The correct term meant is 'buyers remorse' which is when a person after the pruchase of an item has doubts about why they purchased the product or if they purchased the right thing. This can happen with any system. "Did I buy more than I needed?" "Did I not buy a big (powerful) enough system?" for example. Some people become overwhelmed with the programming of decoders or installation of decoders.
The comment regarding "if you can't control them you won't enjoy them" applies without reference to a system. I have a friend with a Prodigy, he constantly frustrated trying to get his decoders programed. I've helped on many occassions installing and programming decoders. At times he's gotten to the point of wanting to ditch the system, not becuase it doesn't work as advertised, but because of the frustration of not being able to figure things out at the start. I seen groups almost come to shouting matches trying to figure out why a system doesn;t work properly. Usually it comes down to operator error, but it this kind of frustration that makes the hobby no fun. Would you want to run on a DC layout if you knew that you were dispatcher and had to figure out a control panel that look like a piano keyboard? No, the frustration of trying to do it would you turn off no matter nice scenicked and detailed the layout was.