DCC:
Play more - pay more
I still use DC and have no desire to change for several reasons:
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
I don't want to jump on to DCC for a big reason: I want this to remain a hobby, not an investment. Hobbies do come with some sort of "investment," but I am not ready for the shock of first time DCC conversion. I don't want to have to share stocks of my RR to keep it operational (LOL) I don't think the cost of DCC is too bad, but its too high for my budget of a hobby, and this could be in part because I have two or three seperate hobbies, which all require money, so I have to treat them equally. I don't even think DCC would be that hard to accomplish, its just I dont want to take the dive just yet. Just more of my
-beegle55
MidlandPacific wrote: When I decide that I'm ready to expand my layout and make the leap to a bigger system, I think I'll convert to DCC. The advantages for large layouts seem pretty clear: more trains, more operators, and relatively less wiring. I put twenty-three blocks in my small starter layout, which is basically a pair of urban junctions, operated with dual-cab control. It was easy to wire it, but it was very time-consuming, and the circuit logic for a bigger layout with multiple cabs would get pretty unwieldy, I think. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see other great stuff what the electronics revolution can provide. Incidentally, per the comments on brass engines shedding parts, I have noticed that some of them do - some of the NJ Custom brass stuff seems to have detail parts that were held on with some kind of adhesive, rather than soldered, and I've noticed they will shed a bit, things like injectors and piping - as a Grande fan, Tom, you might have noticed this with their L-76 class 2-6-6-2s.
When I decide that I'm ready to expand my layout and make the leap to a bigger system, I think I'll convert to DCC. The advantages for large layouts seem pretty clear: more trains, more operators, and relatively less wiring. I put twenty-three blocks in my small starter layout, which is basically a pair of urban junctions, operated with dual-cab control. It was easy to wire it, but it was very time-consuming, and the circuit logic for a bigger layout with multiple cabs would get pretty unwieldy, I think. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see other great stuff what the electronics revolution can provide.
Incidentally, per the comments on brass engines shedding parts, I have noticed that some of them do - some of the NJ Custom brass stuff seems to have detail parts that were held on with some kind of adhesive, rather than soldered, and I've noticed they will shed a bit, things like injectors and piping - as a Grande fan, Tom, you might have noticed this with their L-76 class 2-6-6-2s.
Midland--
Not to get off topic again (he said with an evil chuckle) but about the NJ Custom shedding parts--don't have their L-76, but I have three M-78 4-8-2's that came with drivers sprung with--of all things--GUITAR wire! Had to re-spring the little devils, because they were incredibly mushy, and the only thing that would work was a stronger Ernie Ball .013 guitar wire. You should have seen the look on the guy's face at the music store when I told him that the wire was for a model locomotive, not a Fender Stratocaster! But the stronger wire's held up for quite a few years, now. Nice to know if I need to re-spring, I can just head down to my local guitar shop, LOL! But I do have a tendency to refer to those three locos as my Rock n' Roll Mountains.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I'm staying with DC and will probably never go with DCC-no reason to. I'm into very small layouts, my main one is only 4X5.5 plus I have a 1X6 timesaver and a 1X5 inglenook, no need for DCC. I'm also running a Tech2 1400 powerpack from 25 yrs ago and it still works fine. Small and simple works for me
Bruce
I have bought all of my old brass second or third hand (if not more!), and I suspect that the reason it can sometimes be a mixed bag is previous owner maintenance - I have picked up stuff that runs like a watch on the test track, as well as stuff that jerks and pops along. People who buy Akanes today are buying items that are now thirty years old, and have probably been through a string of owners.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
Too many Locomotives.
Not enough time to do all I want to do.
Equals not enough time and not enough money for DCC.
DC works fine for me. I can not justify a change to DCC now.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Started a new n-scale layout about 6-7 months ago, thought about DCC but for me it was cost prohibitive. I've got everything I want out of my DC layout and love it. I won't lie and say I never forget to flip the switch through one of my reverse loops though /snicker.
In some of my n-scale engines I don't see how it would be possible to mount a DCC chip inside it even if I wanted to. My near 30 year old chessie engine, that rattles like a snake, nearly jumps off the rails at times, brings back so many memories of days gone by. I have no desire to modify that dinosaur. It may not see much run time, but I really enjoy seeing it run through my layout now and again.
I love technology and "new" things, I'm an IT guy by trade, nearly 20 years in IT. Even though I didn't seriously look at DCC until 1/3 of my track work was done, after I looked at it, I knew for me (and I'm not dogging DCC), that DCC had a ways to go OR there would be something better. I figured if I'm going to invest money in someting, I'll wait for "something better" or not move off DC at all.
EDIT
Some of my post got eaten :\
As I stated in the Spacemouse thread, I like to have multiple operators run on my layout. This doesn't mean that I couldn't do it but the cost involved with the type of rotary swithces I would need to add to my collection would have been astronomical! Plus after adding in the price of wire etc, I decided that I had to go DCC.
I, like Tom am getting tired of people coming on and stating that old brass was bad runners. I've never encountered one that was, at one time I owned almost 50, except for a 1950's era International Models 2-8-0. That was easily fixed with a new gearbox and motor, since both in the loco were bad to start with. Parts coming off??? I've lost more parts off of the few plastic diesels I own than any other ten brass engines I own.
Unlike plastic locos, which generally come over lubed, brass never arrived lubed. You have to do some general maintanence to each and every one. When I finish with tweaking, I take the mechanism, minus the motor and worm, and place it on a plate of glass. Using the drawbar as a push/pull bar, if the mech rolls on the glass with just the frame as weight, its ready to go on the track. If not, it needs a little more tweaking. None of my steamers get on the rails until it passes this test. This also goes for my kit builts as well.
Like Tom, most of my fleet is brass steamers and I do run them, a lot! They are all balanced and have more weight in them. The newest brass engine I have is from the 1970's and it still looks better than, and I guarantee that it will out pull any plastic loco of its same size and even several plastics that are bigger. It will also move to the tune of 1 tie every 30 seconds. Up until this past year it was pure DC. That was when I finally got around to putting a decoder in it.
Now I will return you to your regularly scheduled forum.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
Simon:
Those of us that have hi-tech transistor throttles with variable momentum, RF hand held control, and two cabs, May not feel the need for DCC.
My current layout layout fits my room, was designed for all modern improvements (motor driven turnouts - buss/feeder wiring - reusable modules - and yes, even DCC), HOWEVER I find block wiring undaunting, already have engines that run together, and find one 'guest' cab sufficient for my needs.
I guess I haven't found the incentive to switch over. I already have enough engines that run together (a major DCC advantage). I also privately wonder how many DCC'ers buy more than one (or two)of those expensive cabs (another main advantage). Joe Fugate excepted.
Sound is a mixed bag - I have it in Analog which sends two sounds to two speakers via blocks, including a $100 sub woofer with bass down to 50 Hz.- something DCC'ers or QSI and LOK cannot do.
TWO channel or Multi channel Surround sound should cure that.
I have nothin against DCC'ers or 'Plug and play' types, except their avoidance of learning basics +/- of electricity. How can understanding two wires be that complicated?
Rather than spend $300 on DCC, I'd rather have a working Signalling system - the kind that shows red yellow and green in both directions and block occupancy. Now that's realism.
My wife and I are getting back into Model Railroading after a long hiatus. I think that any thoughts of DCC went out the window after we watched a salesman in the local hobby store spend more than 30 minutes trying to get a train started <G>.
Model railroading has room for all sorts of people. Some people like to operate and some people like to build. Me - I like to fiddle with electronics. My first project (post hiatus) was a microcontroller based IR reflection car detector (why so complicated - had to be proof against stray ir - like the sun). Then a controller for a couple of 3 aspect signals on a pony wall (train goes back and forth forever. Then a daliance with a current type block occupied detector. Mustn't forget the microcontroller based noise generator (since I couldn't find the National Semiconductor part specifed in the old article on generating steam type noises) and so on. The next project will be a pulsing throttle again using a micrcontroller - the last one that I built (20 years ago or more) was built from op amps etc, much easier using a micro...
That's my kick. I could still do part of it if we went DCC - but then I wouldn't be able to justify playing around as much as I want to... The trains are a justification for my fiddling with the electronics.... It's good that my wife wants to build scenary - otherwise that would never get done
Villy
I can appreciate the case Antonio's making for DCC for a smaller layout, and it makes sense. Two train operation with DCC must be less operator-intense than two train operation with DC, since you're not constantly flipping switches and deconflicting blocks.
On the other hand, the great thing about DC is that it's the least common denominator of model railroading. It works with every locomotive (unless you converted your whole fleet to something like ASTRAC or CTC-16, in which case you're obviously an electrical and electronics pro who relishes that sort of work anyway). I see the time required to convert my fleet to DCC as the principal barrier to entry: right now, I want to spend that time building scenery and structures, not installing a chip every time I want to run a non-DCC engine.
oleirish wrote: Example DCC an reverse loop cost from $30.00 and up!In DC a dpdt switch and some wire and a few blocks. cost about $3.00 to $5.00I'am not knooking DCC but the cost is real high.
Example DCC an reverse loop cost from $30.00 and up!In DC a dpdt switch and some wire and a few blocks. cost about $3.00 to $5.00I'am not knooking DCC but the cost is real high.
Not trying to be a DCC sniper. But while this statement is accurate on the surface, it is possible to control a DCC reverse loop with a switch rather than an automatic reverser. While I have no objection at all to people selecting and/or staying with DC (it really isn't my business) I do think that anyone making this choice should have accurate information and not hype/anti-hype from either side.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Snipe! Snipe!
I'm a DCC user! You guys just {condescending words about DC and failure to evolve, changing times, too much wiring, etc.}... and that's where babies come from!
Just kidding!
Frankly, DCC does not fit everyone's need. I held out for many years but swicthed to DCC about one year ago. I'm very happy with it, but I would have been happy with DC too. DCC does have drawbacks (such as cost, decoder installs on older locos, etc.) and its advantages.
Go ahead and run DC if that's what fits your need. Don't be ashamed of it either. It's a very robust and simple way to run trains, and it's hard to argue with something that has worked for over half a century (or more!).
It's what makes you happy. Don't led the "experts" bully you into a system you don't want. And that's from a DCC user!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I'm going to have a small, around-the-wall layout. It will include a removable "lift out" section so continuous running is possible. My MRC Tech pack is an excellent performer. Except for two P2K E units, my HO diesel fleet is DC.
I was concerned about costs and was going to stick with DC. Then after talking to a friend and performing a little research I've found that a DCC setup with a Zephyr, plus 5 digitrax 123 decoders is still cheaper than one brass HO locomotive from Overland Models. So, that's why I scratch my head sometimes when I keep reading about "high cost".
Yes, there is a cost.....but I don't agree that it's so high up in the atmosphere as some modelers seem to express. For people on tight budgets (like me) it is still doable. Whether buying a few items at a time or my mother's favorite route: Layaway.
But anyway, there's nothing wrong with wanting to stick with DC. It is tried and true.
For me, with a small layout, I'm going DCC because....
1. Even as a lone operator sometimes, I want to be able to operate two or 3 locomotives. I want the freedom to be able to run on any track, anytime, without flipping block toggles.
2. Simplified wiring.
3. Speed matching. Even with tweaking, some Atlas, Athearn, and P2K units will play "tug-o-war" when coupled with each other.
3. I really like the incredible lighting effects offered (Mars, Gyra, Strobe, Ditch, Rule 17) and the ability to turn them on and off at will (like the prototypes). Same for passenger car interior lights.
4. The flexibility you have with sound, including the upload features. I want to be able to pick and choose which horn sounds my diesels have. I'm a nitpicker about this.
Again, I'm not being a DCC nazi. Just posting the reasons for my change of heart a couple of years back.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
The club that I belong to had the quest throttles before they switched to DCC. The throttles were pretty reliable and had a decent range as this was a large club. The only thing I didn't like about them was the push-button controls. Running a mainline train wasn't bad but switching with these wasn't pleasant because you were constantly punching buttons to speed up and slow down. I really need to have a knob. I went with GML enterprises and their walkaround throttle with memory is great. Their website is
http://www.thegmlenterprises.com/
They also have really inexpensive electronic components for wiring blocks and such. And fast clocks although I have no experience with these.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
mononguy63 wrote:why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere?
mononguy63 wrote: Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
I have seen this system use..Its very nice system..
The advance system:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR90&P=WR
and the basic system:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR91&P=WR
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Sounds like an interesting alternative, details please...
rrebell wrote:Also remember that dc can be operated like dcc with a crest radio control system, they have radio controls that plug right into the dcc plug like a decoder, real easy to have a few engines with that feature and swich back and forth with a few swiches.
Please tell me more about this "crest radio control system???
JIM
I have MRC Railpower 1500's (3) that hold all the needs of my 23' by 5' layout.
Most interesting??
For me it is cost,I have DCC but it cost to much to convert.So I'am staying with DC for now.I've been in and out of model rail roading for the best part of 50 years,I have HO and N scale both.
To try and convert all my locomotives to DCC is out my reach!DC or as often referd to as analog is easy for me.I'am useing an MRC 7000 sound and power unit I've had for years.and allso have an astro craft wire less I use(I converted it to re-chargable battries).When the price comes way down then maybe.??I have one loco with sound but I'am useing an old sound-trax unite ,the one with the cam on the driver,it sounds good but was lucky on the buy.It was real hard to apply the cam to the driver with melting the driver.
Maybe some day???
Simplicity and cost effenciency are why I use DC. I might not be involved with the DC club in years down the road, but it will always have a special place in my heart. I'm glad we have got back to the roots of the thread with discussing things halfway back on topic, but its ok to have off topic moments every now and then.
Simmon I agree with your assessment of the flood of DC to DCC users based on the local tri-county scene and surrounding clubs.Neither of the hobby shops carry DCC but,will order anything you need.According to the shop owners there is no market demand.There is a small group in Tiffin that uses DCC and I believe the Sandusky(Oh) club uses DCC.Other then that its all DC and those that uses sound uses the Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller..We have one at the modular club..However,sound was banned at the other HO club..That was by popular vote.
Now as we can see BLI has introduce a line of DC locomotives with sound.That speaks volumes in its self about DC still being the predominant power source-I know several modelers that is very happy about this line of sound equipped locomotives.I might be interested in a sound equipped SW1500 even if I have have to use a QEC instead of using my stored Empire Builder II.
On my a building industrial switching layout I will use my MRC CM20 since it has walk around control capability from the unit its self..The throttle has a 15 foot cord that will cover my industrial layout from end to end seeing its only going to be 10 foot by 18".
As far as DCC I agree with millrace..I also look for a new whiz bang gee whiz by golly state of the art control system. Why? Simply put and IMHO technology will demand it.
I'm between layouts at the moment. I do plan to build a layout as soon as I get out of my apartment and into a house, and so far, I plan to stick with DC for several reasons:
*I am pretty much a loner so I don't anticipate a need to run multiple trains at once.
*The cost factor. I find it more fun to spend money on things that are fun to look at as opposed to tiny circuit boards that don't appear to do anything at all!
*General fear and distrust of technology. How long will it be before the current DCC systems are completely obsolete and replaced by some some new gee-whiz thingie? I'm already sick of it with digital cameras. My old camera was state-of-the-art 4 years ago. Now it is considered obsolete even though it still works fine. I'm not real excited to spend another few hundred bucks (or more) to replace it with something that itself will be obsolete in 4 years.
DCC is certainly cool and definately the way to go for large layouts with multple operators, but for a small home layout like I'm planning, I don't think I need it. Maybe at some point in the future when technology stabilizes enough to make the investment worthwhile, I'd consider it.
mononguy63 wrote: What puzzles me is that if there is this flood of folks abandoning DC for DCC, then why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere? Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
What puzzles me is that if there is this flood of folks abandoning DC for DCC, then why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere? Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
Jim, I think that perhaps you have made an assumption that is not correct. First of all, I am not sure that there is a "flood" of folks abandoning DC for DCC. DCC has been around in one form or another for well over a decade. As a technology it has reached a critical mass and is most likely here to stay. It appears that many starting new layouts are choosing the DCC route, but I am not sure that we have seen a huge shift over in the well established layouts. The cost, the potential technical challenges and the difficulty, or even impossibility of converting cherished older models are very real and valid reasons for not making the change. Further more I would suggest that a DC layout that has expanded to include walk-around-memory-throttles has likely reached a point of development where it works well for the owner and does an excellent job for what they need. This further imbalances the cost/benefit calculation for conversion. (remarkably little perceived benefit for a huge potential cost) There has certainly been no shortage of regular used DC throttle packs on EBay and at train-shows, but then it is a lot simpler and cheaper to convert a smallish layout.
I think it is rather sad that this thread even exists. The notion that you all can feel belittled and looked down upon because you use a tried and tested control system that works very well for you is unsettling to me. I really don't like to see someones pride-and-joy described as a dinosaur simply because it was hand made to the highest level 2 or 3 decades ago and has older technology electrics and can't be easily converted to DCC. Almost all of us that use DCC cut our teeth on a DC layout. I have nothing but the fondest memories of my childhood layouts and my first efforts upon return as an adult. At no point did I have a layout that was anything much more than a couple of interconnected loops with 2 power-packs. I had a blast with this setup. It was not complex, I was not significantly invested in DC or older models. So I planned for and now run my new layout on DCC.
It takes all sorts of folks to make up a community. The hobby needs the techies and the computer nuts. It also needs the rivet counters, the super detailers, the scratch builders and the kids. It also needs the devotees of DC, block control and CTC boards. I don't think we do ourselves any good at all when we reduce ourselves to name calling and goading those with differing views and opinions into pointless arguments. So hopefully you won't get any DCC fanatics ramming their view of control down your throats.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum