I have using a pair of GML walkaround throttles for many years and they are very reliable and troublefree. They make the running of my trains more enjoyable!
Cheers,
Beowulf wrote: I like the Controlmaster 20 also. It's ability to plug into a number of modular phone jack recepticals on the edge of the layout is very handy.But modular phone wire and jacks were designed to be pluged in and out only occasionally, when you move or buy a new phone. Under frequent use the phone wire tends to break and make intermittent contact right at the point where the jack is crimped on. It is an easy fix with a Radio Shack or Home Depot crimping tool set but it can cause a lot of confusion until you realize what is going wrong.I'd like to see a similar throttle but with a radio link between the hand unit and the base unit.
I like the Controlmaster 20 also. It's ability to plug into a number of modular phone jack recepticals on the edge of the layout is very handy.
But modular phone wire and jacks were designed to be pluged in and out only occasionally, when you move or buy a new phone. Under frequent use the phone wire tends to break and make intermittent contact right at the point where the jack is crimped on. It is an easy fix with a Radio Shack or Home Depot crimping tool set but it can cause a lot of confusion until you realize what is going wrong.
I'd like to see a similar throttle but with a radio link between the hand unit and the base unit.
I agree with your statements about the telephone style plug. I bought a GML throttle at www.thegmlenterprises.com and have been really happy with it. The plug is a stereo headphone plug. It will last forever and there are only 3 wires to connect. I'm not sure how many there are on the phone plugs but I think it is more than 3. I have a fairly large layout so I am plugging and unplugging all the time. Same with my 6 year old son. These jacks are the way to go.
For wireless I have used the quest but I really hate the pushbuttons, especially for switching. If they made a model with a knob, I would probably buy it.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Sounds like it could do the trick for dirty track. It wouldn't solve my desire for top-weathered rail but that isn't to big of a need for me. Has anyone tried these? It doesn't really say what kind of distance the train can go without track power but I am guessing that it would be much less for my O scale stuff. I would really be interested in hearing if this works.
I have seen lighting kits for passenger cars that work great for DC. When the train pulls into a station the lights remain on because they are running off batteries that are charged by the track power. There is also no light flicker as the train travels down the track.
I do have DCC (Digitrax Zephyr) but my layout will always have the abillity to switch to DC at the filck of a switch. I have some engines that I my never get around to converting, plus I like to test my new enignes on DC before converting them to DCC (I don't like using the analog option on the Zephyr).
el-capitan wrote: Dirty track is a pain and I also would like to weather the top of the rails on some of my lesser used sidings. While it would be possible to use batteries since I am in Oscale, the idea of recharging them all the time is not pleasant either. What would be cool is to have a recharging track, like next to a water tower or coal chute. You pull your engine up to the spot, set a timer and it recharges the batteries without taking them out. Has this ever been done before, like in G scale? It would lend itself to better prototypical operation. There also could be a "hybrid" battery system where the motor runs off the battery but the battery is being constantly recharged from track power. There would be no shimmies or shakes when going over a small section of dirty track.
One thing I find amusing is the references to being "childish". Aren't we all just a little childish here, after all, we do play with toy trains.
beegle55 wrote:All this talk about old stuff and us DC users being old school and of all that jazz, but what about the light bulb? We have been using the same thing for a really large amount of years, since Edison first invented them back in the (1800'?). They still work fine,
Chaya--
Without getting into the various discussions of DC vs. DCC (which has already gotten me into some trouble in this thread), if you are going to go with DC, --and your reasons seem very sound to me--the Controlmaster 20 is a good decision, at least IMO. It's very powerful, and the walk-around throttle will extend (with phone wire) to 25 feet. The unit also comes with instructions on how to use it with multiple blocks, if you so choose. One thing it also has on the throttle is a 'Nudge' switch, so if you purchase a DC/DCC compatible locomotive, you can still run it comfortably in the higher quadrant of the controller.
I like mine. Very much. It gives smooth control, and plenty of power, in case you DO decide to run front-train helpers later. And the walk-around throttle gives you plenty of control on a standard home-sized layout.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I'm planning a new layout after a move to a new house. It'll be a double-decker, n-scale. I think I'm going to be sticking with DC, especially after reading all the different posts in both the "DCC Club" and the "DC Club," as well as some of the flame wars.
I'm not any whiz at wiring, but I'm willing and happy to learn. I like the thought of spending hardly anything, working hard with my hands, and having a product that works well and pleases me. The alternative is to buy DCC stuff, send all my engines off to be modified by other people, which will cost way too much money, and spend my time being annoyed at yet another computer. I have a computer and I think I'm pretty functional with it--but I don't want it to become a part of my hobby. (Yes, I'm one of those who prefers landlines to cell phones--because they SOUND better).
So far, each of the points made in favor of DCC has failed to resonate with me. Okay, they control all kinds of lighting effects and sound. Great. I don't care about lighting effects, and I truly dislike the sound effects. They sound phony and cheesy to me. The purist in me also wonders: when I can hear the engine, why am I not hearing everything else as well? I'm happier just imagining the sound, thank you.
I also don't plan on having more than two operators and will usually have only one, don't intend on running helpers, would get confused if I tried to run more than one engine at a time, and don't care about time spent on wiring.
This has been a great thread for me because it's helped me decide what kind of control system I want to buy--I think the MRC Control Master 20 sounds great.
All this talk about old stuff and us DC users being old school and of all that jazz, but what about the light bulb? We have been using the same thing for a really large amount of years, since Edison first invented them back in the (1800'?). They still work fine, and new designs have always been on the surface, but have never been as mainstream as the original form. I like the old light bulb (DC) and want to wait a while too see what advances of the floresent and engery saving bulbs (DCC) before I make a change in my DC world.
-beegle55
Texas Zepher wrote: el-capitan wrote:I guess that is why DC will be around forever because... can motors will never go out of style.You realize of course that can motors aren't synonymous with DC. Generally that is sort of what Thomas Edison thought in the 1890s. I think that perhaps you are right as far as model railroads are concerned because it (DC) is the most trivial way to control them. I've also often wondered why the environmentalists aren't after us because we are wasting so much energy with all those potentiometers in power packs.
el-capitan wrote:I guess that is why DC will be around forever because... can motors will never go out of style.
You realize of course that can motors aren't synonymous with DC. Generally that is sort of what Thomas Edison thought in the 1890s. I think that perhaps you are right as far as model railroads are concerned because it (DC) is the most trivial way to control them. I've also often wondered why the environmentalists aren't after us because we are wasting so much energy with all those potentiometers in power packs.
Yes I know that, I was just trying to point out that the components to make DC work have so many other uses in the world. The technology will be around for a long time. The technology is not specific to one use. Laser discs, beta and DCC decoders are pretty specific technologies that are much more likely to become obsolete when a better technology comes around. Copper wire, can motors and transformers will be around for a long time.
navygunner wrote:After the Beta and Laser disc purchases, I decided that keeping up with technology was not for me.
After the Beta and Laser disc purchases, I decided that keeping up with technology was not for me. I waited to buy a DVD player when they were selling at $45.00. I don't rent or buy too much media so scaling back on that investment has saved me a ton of cash! As for the next generation, It will also likely be the format with the most manufacturers undercutting the competition.
Bob
rrebell wrote: BRAKIE wrote: I have seen this system use..Its very nice system..The advance system:http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR90&P=WR and the basic system:http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR91&P=WR There is a third one from crest that has a plug in decoder just like dcc only it is radio controled so the only thing it gets though the track is power, no signal!!!!!
BRAKIE wrote: I have seen this system use..Its very nice system..The advance system:http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR90&P=WR and the basic system:http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR91&P=WR
I have seen this system use..Its very nice system..
The advance system:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR90&P=WR
and the basic system:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR91&P=WR
OK, this has caught my attention. Do you have to wire a decoder in each loco? A system like this makes a lot more sense than DCC.
navygunner wrote:The Beta v VHS analogy is a particularly good point to bring up. The NMRA has issued a set of standards and recommended practices that address compatability among different manufacturers. The fact that the manufacturers have bought into this set of standards and practices is a testament to our resolve as consumers to demand this compatability. These standards apply to electrical and mechanical function. How many times have us N Scale folks called someone to task for non RP25 wheels? We got MTL to waffle on LP wheels in N Scale to the point where they were shipping their models with both! We pointed out that the sides on some InterMountain locomotives were backwards; they replaced the shells. Atlas has fixed issuesd with their models too. You got a problem with a manufacturer? Stop buying from them. In most cases (when I wasn't totally screwed up in my thinking), the manufacturers came around to our train of thought.The DCC standards are very important to the future of our hobby! This standard crosses all of the scales. That MTH and Lionel have opted to go with different standards only limits the consumer to one particular product to expierience the full capability ot the models features. A lot of us in the smaller scales have already noted our displeasure with this. In the smaller scales, all of the major manufacturers have gone to a standard that allows all of the product to perform to the cutomers basic needs for DC and DCC control. We are the ones spending the money that keeps the lights on at the manufacturers of our hobby supplies. If they want to keep groceries on the table and the lights on at the office, they must come up with ways of keeping us happy. We are customers in a discretionary market, we are at the top of the food chain. If someone gives us a piece of junk and says that it's the best thing to come down the pike, we have the ability to throw the internet BS flag. What are they going to do? If you want DC or DCS or anything else, to be the dominant technology in the MRR world, you have to vote with your hobby dollar. Otherwise you are standing next to the DC. DCS, DCC or other Folk folk and peeing into the wind. At 46 years old; I have not commited to any technology. I like living in both worlds, with dry pants!. Afterall, they figured this crap out with the internet, didn't they!Bob
The Beta v VHS analogy is a particularly good point to bring up. The NMRA has issued a set of standards and recommended practices that address compatability among different manufacturers. The fact that the manufacturers have bought into this set of standards and practices is a testament to our resolve as consumers to demand this compatability.
These standards apply to electrical and mechanical function. How many times have us N Scale folks called someone to task for non RP25 wheels? We got MTL to waffle on LP wheels in N Scale to the point where they were shipping their models with both! We pointed out that the sides on some InterMountain locomotives were backwards; they replaced the shells. Atlas has fixed issuesd with their models too. You got a problem with a manufacturer? Stop buying from them. In most cases (when I wasn't totally screwed up in my thinking), the manufacturers came around to our train of thought.
The DCC standards are very important to the future of our hobby! This standard crosses all of the scales. That MTH and Lionel have opted to go with different standards only limits the consumer to one particular product to expierience the full capability ot the models features. A lot of us in the smaller scales have already noted our displeasure with this. In the smaller scales, all of the major manufacturers have gone to a standard that allows all of the product to perform to the cutomers basic needs for DC and DCC control.
We are the ones spending the money that keeps the lights on at the manufacturers of our hobby supplies. If they want to keep groceries on the table and the lights on at the office, they must come up with ways of keeping us happy. We are customers in a discretionary market, we are at the top of the food chain. If someone gives us a piece of junk and says that it's the best thing to come down the pike, we have the ability to throw the internet BS flag. What are they going to do?
If you want DC or DCS or anything else, to be the dominant technology in the MRR world, you have to vote with your hobby dollar. Otherwise you are standing next to the DC. DCS, DCC or other Folk folk and peeing into the wind. At 46 years old; I have not commited to any technology. I like living in both worlds, with dry pants!. Afterall, they figured this crap out with the internet, didn't they!
So Bob.....whats you're money on in the next video War? Blue Ray HD VS. HD-DVD? So far Blue Ray is twice the cost of HD-DVD. Sounds eerily reminiscant of the Beta Vs. VHS wars. We know who won that one....The less expensive model
Well Athearn join the DC/Sound on their newest Genesis F7s-these are modernized F7s with tons of details changes..This also applies to the latest SD45-2 release.
DC Functions:
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
There are still plenty of DC products that are new and top of the line on the market. I also agree with the compatibility point because DC is like a universal language of model railroading. And yes, those tough little can motors will always have a spot in model railroading.
Exactly, DC control has no compatibility problems, or at least it didn't until some bright spark came up with non-DC compatible decoders (older Soundtraxx for example). Although the trend today seems to be very much towards dual control decoders for sound and non sound. I think that the fact that BLI introduced their non-decoder versions of models and now the Blue Line DC sound systems speaks volumes about the large number of DC users.
I can't see the can motor going anywhere either. They are cheap to make and they are more than up to the task. What will change is how the power is delivered to the motor and how that power is controlled. DC and DCC locos are identical from the wires to the motor brushes through the drive train. In simple terms, the only difference is that the DC guy is holding the rheostat in his hand and attenuating and increasing the voltage to the track, which is directly connected to the motor leads via the wheels and pickups, whereas the DCC guy is remote controlling the rheostat in the loco that is attenuating and increasing the voltage to the motor leads directly.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
simon1966 wrote: el-capitan wrote: simon1966 wrote: The other problem for any radical change in new technology will be getting credibility. I would imagine that we may be faced with more than one competing new technology. Will this be like a VHS v Beta-max where one wins out and the other falls by the wayside? Will modellers shy away from adopting these new things in case they are left with a dead end technology? It has happened before in this hobby. Look at all the attempts at command control that have not thrived.I don't think the beta vs VHS analogy carries as much weight in the model train world simply because many MRers don't need infinite compatibility with everyone else. Just look at how many scales there are. I know there are also alot of guys that enjoy bringing their equipment to a buddy's house. I am not one of them and I am pretty sure that I am not alone. If some guy rang my doorbell tommorrow and offered me the dream system for my layout but I would be the only one who had it, I would take it in a heartbeat.My point here was more to do with the notion of what happens when a competing technology fails. The owner of such technology gets left out in the cold and eventually has to replace it or stay stagnant. Any new technology in MRR is going to have a control component, a transmission component and something in the locomotive to actually make it work. If a technology fails and the parts to make the loco work are no-longer available (Betamax tapes) then you either have to be content with the roster you have or move on to another technology if you want to run new locomotives.
el-capitan wrote: simon1966 wrote: The other problem for any radical change in new technology will be getting credibility. I would imagine that we may be faced with more than one competing new technology. Will this be like a VHS v Beta-max where one wins out and the other falls by the wayside? Will modellers shy away from adopting these new things in case they are left with a dead end technology? It has happened before in this hobby. Look at all the attempts at command control that have not thrived.I don't think the beta vs VHS analogy carries as much weight in the model train world simply because many MRers don't need infinite compatibility with everyone else. Just look at how many scales there are. I know there are also alot of guys that enjoy bringing their equipment to a buddy's house. I am not one of them and I am pretty sure that I am not alone. If some guy rang my doorbell tommorrow and offered me the dream system for my layout but I would be the only one who had it, I would take it in a heartbeat.
simon1966 wrote: The other problem for any radical change in new technology will be getting credibility. I would imagine that we may be faced with more than one competing new technology. Will this be like a VHS v Beta-max where one wins out and the other falls by the wayside? Will modellers shy away from adopting these new things in case they are left with a dead end technology? It has happened before in this hobby. Look at all the attempts at command control that have not thrived.
The other problem for any radical change in new technology will be getting credibility. I would imagine that we may be faced with more than one competing new technology. Will this be like a VHS v Beta-max where one wins out and the other falls by the wayside? Will modellers shy away from adopting these new things in case they are left with a dead end technology? It has happened before in this hobby. Look at all the attempts at command control that have not thrived.
I don't think the beta vs VHS analogy carries as much weight in the model train world simply because many MRers don't need infinite compatibility with everyone else. Just look at how many scales there are. I know there are also alot of guys that enjoy bringing their equipment to a buddy's house. I am not one of them and I am pretty sure that I am not alone. If some guy rang my doorbell tommorrow and offered me the dream system for my layout but I would be the only one who had it, I would take it in a heartbeat.
My point here was more to do with the notion of what happens when a competing technology fails. The owner of such technology gets left out in the cold and eventually has to replace it or stay stagnant. Any new technology in MRR is going to have a control component, a transmission component and something in the locomotive to actually make it work. If a technology fails and the parts to make the loco work are no-longer available (Betamax tapes) then you either have to be content with the roster you have or move on to another technology if you want to run new locomotives.
good point. I guess that is why DC will be around forever because toggle switches and can motors will never go out of style.
simon1966 wrote: Just out of curiosity, what has been happening to the price of DC throttle packs in the last 5 years? I would assume that sales volume of these has dropped significantly and I would expect the MRC's of this world to start to ramp up the prices of the higher end throttle as they appeal to a smaller more specialized market segment. Is that what is happening?
Just out of curiosity, what has been happening to the price of DC throttle packs in the last 5 years? I would assume that sales volume of these has dropped significantly and I would expect the MRC's of this world to start to ramp up the prices of the higher end throttle as they appeal to a smaller more specialized market segment. Is that what is happening?
For Oscale walkaround throttles the price has stayed consistent over the past 5 years however the number of manufacturers has dropped. The only ones that I know of are MRC and GML. There are more manufacturers but those 2 are the only ones that carry walkarounds with enough juice for O scale. I would bet that I higher percentage of Oscale guys have gone to DCC than the smaller scales because of the size of the locos making it easier to install decoders.
simon1966 wrote: My personal expectation is that we will see and evolution over the coming years based on the now well established unnamed technology. We will see dramatic improvement in the user interfaces employed by the throttles as manufacturers tackle the issue of large banks of functions. More and more functions and gimmicks will be added again requiring huge improvements in the control systems. I think within the next decade that these are the changes we will see, not a radical change in the actual control system through the rails.
My personal expectation is that we will see and evolution over the coming years based on the now well established unnamed technology. We will see dramatic improvement in the user interfaces employed by the throttles as manufacturers tackle the issue of large banks of functions. More and more functions and gimmicks will be added again requiring huge improvements in the control systems. I think within the next decade that these are the changes we will see, not a radical change in the actual control system through the rails.
Dirty track is a pain and I also would like to weather the top of the rails on some of my lesser used sidings. While it would be possible to use batteries since I am in Oscale, the idea of recharging them all the time is not pleasant either. What would be cool is to have a recharging track, like next to a water tower or coal chute. You pull your engine up to the spot, set a timer and it recharges the batteries without taking them out. Has this ever been done before, like in G scale? It would lend itself to better prototypical operation. There also could be a "hybrid" battery system where the motor runs off the battery but the battery is being constantly recharged from track power. There would be no shimmies or shakes when going over a small section of dirty track.
Simon,
You got me thinking about MRC so I went to their site and it lists most of the power packs as "This item is out of stock. Please order this item from your favorite hobby dealer."
Now I have to wonder what they are up to?
Jim
Paul3 wrote: el-capitan,I'll continue to take the manufacturer's specs of DCC products over the word someone who has very little use for DCC and isn't shy in saying so. No offense, you understand. But I have to assume that when a company offers a 5 amp product, it's good for 5 amps. And unless you can come up with an example of a greater than 5 amp continuous load O-scale engine, then I will continue to point out that one can get O-scale decoders for about half of what you originally claimed.
el-capitan,I'll continue to take the manufacturer's specs of DCC products over the word someone who has very little use for DCC and isn't shy in saying so. No offense, you understand. But I have to assume that when a company offers a 5 amp product, it's good for 5 amps. And unless you can come up with an example of a greater than 5 amp continuous load O-scale engine, then I will continue to point out that one can get O-scale decoders for about half of what you originally claimed.
I don't remember the specifics but I know the guys in my club were having problems with decoders not living up to what they said they would. You are right, if the manufacturer says 5 amps it should work in my locos. Let's put an end to this argument as we are not getting anywhere.
Paul3 wrote: Again since you seem to have read all my posts you will notice that a helpful DCCer explained how block control could be done with DCC. Unfortunately it would require completely rewiring the blocks on my layout. Anything is possible with enough money and time.Actually, it wouldn't require that much wiring for your layout. Since you already have a centralized block control panel (your dispatcher's panel), all you'd do is run wire from your toggles to the BDL168 inputs, then run the BDL168 outputs to the blocks using the existing wires. The specifics would change depending on how you wired your layout in the first place (the common return, for example), but it sounds like a simple installation.
Again since you seem to have read all my posts you will notice that a helpful DCCer explained how block control could be done with DCC. Unfortunately it would require completely rewiring the blocks on my layout. Anything is possible with enough money and time.
Actually, it wouldn't require that much wiring for your layout. Since you already have a centralized block control panel (your dispatcher's panel), all you'd do is run wire from your toggles to the BDL168 inputs, then run the BDL168 outputs to the blocks using the existing wires. The specifics would change depending on how you wired your layout in the first place (the common return, for example), but it sounds like a simple installation.
Right now my layout's blocks stretch from signal to signal (assuming that I have signals which have not been installed yet, but for sake of argument). In order to have proper protection yet still have maximum operation with DCC I would want to isolate a 24" section of track at the signal which would be tied into that signal's relay. The rest of the 30ft blocks would operate constantly. If the signal is red in both directions, that short section of track would go dead. I'm sure there would be other ways of doing it but this seems to me like the most operator friendly as the dispatcher would only need to worry about what signals to throw and not routing track power. I would basically be doubling the amount of mainline blocks.
Paul3 wrote: $240 for block detection? really? Does it detect trains that are not moving? If there is a cheaper way of doing it please share but I was simply quoting one suppliers price that has a unit that is able to detect stopped trains. I never said this was the only way.Um, of course it does. Why wouldn't it? Heck, the old Twin-T coils that MR helped bring into the hobby back in the, what? 1950's? 1960's? Those old things could detect a train standing still. The BDL168's sense a current draw across the block like the Twin-T's do. So any motor, running or not, will detect. Also, by adding a resistor or a light source to any rolling stock will also cause it to detect. Jay-Bee even makes resister wheelsets in HO scale for just that purpose, although one could make them yourself if you wish.What kind of detection system can't sense stopped trains? Unless they don't have resistors or engines...but then without engines it's not really a train (by rule).
$240 for block detection? really? Does it detect trains that are not moving? If there is a cheaper way of doing it please share but I was simply quoting one suppliers price that has a unit that is able to detect stopped trains. I never said this was the only way.
Um, of course it does. Why wouldn't it? Heck, the old Twin-T coils that MR helped bring into the hobby back in the, what? 1950's? 1960's? Those old things could detect a train standing still. The BDL168's sense a current draw across the block like the Twin-T's do. So any motor, running or not, will detect. Also, by adding a resistor or a light source to any rolling stock will also cause it to detect. Jay-Bee even makes resister wheelsets in HO scale for just that purpose, although one could make them yourself if you wish.
What kind of detection system can't sense stopped trains? Unless they don't have resistors or engines...but then without engines it's not really a train (by rule).
Again, I was simply stating what it would cost me given one company's price. I am in no way an expert in block detection because I have never had a need for it with block control. I was simply using that company's price as a rough estimate of what it would cost me.
Paul3 wrote: If all this on-screen stuff can be done with DCC then why havn't I seen it at my LHS? Again if you read the entire post I want all of this in a simple plug and play system. I never said it can't be done.How many LHS's sell software? My club uses Railroad&Co. http://www.freiwald.com/ But there's also a free program called JMRI. http://jmri.sourceforge.net/apps/PanelPro/PanelPro.html
If all this on-screen stuff can be done with DCC then why havn't I seen it at my LHS? Again if you read the entire post I want all of this in a simple plug and play system. I never said it can't be done.
How many LHS's sell software? My club uses Railroad&Co. http://www.freiwald.com/ But there's also a free program called JMRI. http://jmri.sourceforge.net/apps/PanelPro/PanelPro.html
I had a chance to take a look at these websites and if I am reading it correctly I would need the following: A program from whatever manufacturer that shows my layout on screen, a computer interface system (from a different manufacturer) that connects my computer to the switches, blocks, etc. Decoders and boosters from yet a different manufacturer to run the trains. And all these different systems from different manufacturers are supposed to communicate with each other. This really seems like something way above my head. Remember, that thread was titled "ultimate operating system" and I simply said that I wanted something that is plug and play that a simple person like me can use. This seems like something that I would need to hire an IT guy just to wire in a switch. I new that this stuff was out there, just not in the package that I could use.
I've been kind of lying low on this thread for a while, mainly because I have a feeling that my original reply to Modelmaker is the one that started the whole series of blasts on this thread. I was told by another contributor that my reaction to the term "Dinosaurs", when I mentioned being happy with the Jurassic Era was out of whack when I was the one who had brought up the subject originally (hey, really, guys, there WERE little Mammals back during that era. Really! It wasn't all Brontosauri and precursors to T-Rex'es).
But enough of Paleontology.
Actually, in re-reading Modelmaker's thread, I begin to see the humor in it, and I DO owe you an apology for mis-reading it. I must have been in 'Defensive Mode' because nobody has ever accused me of not having a sense of humor.
So, people, let's let the DC/DCC battle rest for a while and all listen to each other, okay? I KNOW my reasons for not converting, they're financial. STRICTLY financial! And let me reiterate, an $11 dollar decoder for one of my Swiss Watch brass locos is going to be like purchasing an Ipod instead of a home entertainment system. That's my belief and also what I've been told at my LHS by DCC experts who know both my layout and loco roster. But that shouldn't deter anyone who is thinking about DCC from going ahead. It's just not for me, at the present time.
Argument presented, argument settled.
Now let's get back on topic, okay? As I said, I apologize to all of those that I offended, we wouldn't all be in this hobby if we didn't first of all love TRAINS, no matter HOW we operate them.
You are so right El Capitain, not only does the technology move slowly the uptake and acceptance of new technology is very slow. Consider the control technology that shall not be mentioned by name, what are we, 10, 15 years since it was introduced? Finally reaching critical mass where it is on a level footing and now out-pacing DC. Look at all the incredibly valid reasons that are listed here for DC users not to switch. Imagine the resistance to a new technology if there was significant cost and or difficulty in upgrading all the decoder equipped locos? Someone further up the thread suggested that they would wait until prices came down. I suspect we are close to the bottom of the barrel for pricing. There has been a substantial drop so that entry level system can be had for under $100 and good starter sets under $150. Decoder prices have dropped also. How low can they go and allow relatively low volume manufacturers to still make a viable business. We are not in the high volume consumer market here so we are never going to get pricing like pocket calculators.
As long as the dinosaur club is in session, I thought I'd show some fossil bones. My control Panel. It really doesn't look as bad as the picture seems. Upper black labels are for blocks, yellow label switches are switches. 3 lighting switches also on panel, there are a couple more on top.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
beegle55 wrote: Hey Jim, you have a good list of reasons why you are in the DC club. I agree with number 6 alot :P, it seems like every time I make an investment into a piece of new technology, something else comes out that I want more... I guess that will always happen though. Anywho, I think it will be interesting in what develops over the next few years. -beegle55
Hey Jim, you have a good list of reasons why you are in the DC club. I agree with number 6 alot :P, it seems like every time I make an investment into a piece of new technology, something else comes out that I want more... I guess that will always happen though. Anywho, I think it will be interesting in what develops over the next few years.
While I will agree that I would like something more robust to come along, I don't think that will happen anytime soon, not 5 yrs anyway. MR technology moves pretty slow compared to other fields because of the limited market. If everyonw who owns a cell phone would get into model railroading perhaps the MR technology would move as fast as cell phone technology.
Yea I can hardly wait until my b-day!
Paul, I might have used some stong words, but we are putting all of the bad on this thread behind us, so please don't get it started again!!!!!! We are trying to get back on some sort of topic related to DC use. Thanks for your reply and the heads up on your critiquing of others, but lets try to keep those kind of posts on the down low, thanks!
beegle55,C'mon, man. You don't think anybody has been flaming on this thread? Back on Page 1, you wrote: "In addition, I don't think their has been an off topic post yet, except for YOURS MODELMAKER!!!!!!!! I didn't start this post for flaming, so shut up and mind your own buisness, thanks. And yes, WE REALLY DO ENJOY OUR DINOSAURS!!! SO THANKS FOR THE CONCERN BUDDY!!!!" Telling people to "shut up" is usually considered "flaming" on most forums (not to mention the eight exclamation points and the entire sentences in all caps...with multiple exclamation points yet).
Not for nothing, but you can't be taken seriously as the victim of a flame war when you were spotted with a can of gasoline and a match earlier in the very same thread.
I have never claimed to be an expert on DCC installations in O-scale. I will lay claim to certain level of knowledge about DCC. And I know that as long as your decoder amp rating is greater than the stall current of your loco, you won't "blow" the decoder (no matter the scale, no matter what you do to it after installation). If you have an O-scale loco that pulls less than a 5 amp continous load (and less than a 10 amp peak load), than the DG583S is all you need for a decoder. I don't have to be an O-scale expert to know that.
I don't have any protection from head-on collisions when I drive my truck down the road but yet I manage to avoid them.
Huh?
I have issues with people who do not have the same experience as me in Oscale telling me I am wrong. Call it a flaw.
You are not wrong about O-scale and I never said you were. However, you are wrong about certain things with DCC.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
beegle55 wrote: MOJAX wrote: beegle55 wrote: I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers! -beegle55This thread has been very interesting and thanks for starting it. When did you (beegle55) change your mind about DCC? (I guess I'll try to get the thread back to what its suppost to be, instead of some people calling others "childish" by being "childish"...)Hey MOJAX, I decided to stick with DC for now because of a limited budget becoming even more limited. I am getting my drivers liscense May 14, and I have put back most of my money into a savings account for the summer. Next summer I am planning on getting a job, so DCC might be of interest then. I like DC and DCC sounds really interesting as well, so I am open to all options of the hobby. Thanks for the post. -beegle55
MOJAX wrote: beegle55 wrote: I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers! -beegle55This thread has been very interesting and thanks for starting it. When did you (beegle55) change your mind about DCC?
beegle55 wrote: I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers! -beegle55
I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers!
This thread has been very interesting and thanks for starting it. When did you (beegle55) change your mind about DCC?
(I guess I'll try to get the thread back to what its suppost to be, instead of some people calling others "childish" by being "childish"...)
Hey MOJAX, I decided to stick with DC for now because of a limited budget becoming even more limited. I am getting my drivers liscense May 14, and I have put back most of my money into a savings account for the summer. Next summer I am planning on getting a job, so DCC might be of interest then. I like DC and DCC sounds really interesting as well, so I am open to all options of the hobby. Thanks for the post.
I'll bet you can't wait until May 14'th! Drive carefully as there are a lot of idiots on the roads.
Michael Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
My Photos at RRPictures.Net: Click Here
Soo Line fan wrote: Hello, My name is Jim and I still use DC (polite applause). And now without further adieu, here are the top ten reasons I have not switched to DCC:I have 40 engines to change over. Motor isolation is not the issue, as the open frames have been replaced with NWSL and PPW can motors. I have a double track main. One train circles the layout and I switch with the other. It is not a club; I operate alone. 1-2 trains are plenty to run. Sound is annoying to me. I happen to like peace and quiet. My layout is pretty much finished, in regards to track and wiring. The supposed "complicated wiring" (whatever that is) has been completed.I want to see if another system comes out within the next 5 yrs. In the meantime the prices will drop. The cost of decoders and a good system is going to be substantial. My Scottrade account needs money more than the layout.The only time I touch a block is to do a cross over move or come out of the yard and engine terminal.I am not a jump on the bandwagon person or a sheep. Its my hobby, I will participate the way I choose, not the way others want me to.I am having a great time right now with my current system, that's the main reason for a hobby, is it not?There, I feel better (End of DC anonymous meeting). Too funny....Jim
Hello, My name is Jim and I still use DC (polite applause).
And now without further adieu, here are the top ten reasons I have not switched to DCC:
There, I feel better (End of DC anonymous meeting).
Too funny....
Alright Antonio, sounds good to me.
I fully agree, Beegle. I'm sorry I misunderstood your post and intent.
Yes, let's go forward.
Take care
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
AntonioFP45 wrote: Beegle, You're certianly not helping. I thought we moved on, but I'll go ahead and reply here. If you read carefully, the "childish" remark refers to the poster's behavior itself, which indeed is very childish. That's not rocket science. I don't invite any flaming posts at all. YOU invited disagreement and discord when you make comments referring to "DCC Snipers". Yet you imply that I'm a flamer?? You're upset with me because I responded to your unprovoked statement. Come on, Beegle! Are you serious? When I screw up, I'm the first to apologize. When I'm attacked, I will respond. If you read back over this thread my posts have been quite civil except when you made the "Flaming" post about DCC snipers and of course, Clang's flaming torpedo post. The two of you are fellow modelers.....Yet, you chose to get nasty, bottom line. ( Go figure )If you take my "suggestions" about being civil as "childish" then so be it. I'm a DC modeler that's switching over, so that's why this thread was interesting to me. Before accusing someone of an infraction or offense, please think about it and make sure you didn't do the same first. I hope this caps the head and we can cruise forward.Peace and High Greens
Beegle,
You're certianly not helping. I thought we moved on, but I'll go ahead and reply here.
If you read carefully, the "childish" remark refers to the poster's behavior itself, which indeed is very childish. That's not rocket science.
I don't invite any flaming posts at all. YOU invited disagreement and discord when you make comments referring to "DCC Snipers". Yet you imply that I'm a flamer?? You're upset with me because I responded to your unprovoked statement. Come on, Beegle! Are you serious? When I screw up, I'm the first to apologize. When I'm attacked, I will respond. If you read back over this thread my posts have been quite civil except when you made the "Flaming" post about DCC snipers and of course, Clang's flaming torpedo post. The two of you are fellow modelers.....Yet, you chose to get nasty, bottom line. ( Go figure )
If you take my "suggestions" about being civil as "childish" then so be it. I'm a DC modeler that's switching over, so that's why this thread was interesting to me.
Before accusing someone of an infraction or offense, please think about it and make sure you didn't do the same first.
I hope this caps the head and we can cruise forward.
Peace and High Greens
1) So what if we are being childish?? Do have to call the actions "childish," (which makes you look like the child in the first place with all the name calling.
2) You completely misunderstood the "DCC Sniper" gig. That was, I guess you could say, an inside joke started on the very first page of this thread way back when. If you had read from the beginning and had fully understood what I meant by "DCC Sniper's," this entire mix-up would have never happened. I'm not blaming you, just be sure you know what you are talking about from the beginning. I don't in fact blame you for the mistake, because I too skip to various parts of multi-page threads without reading ever single post word for word.
3)I didn't imply that you were a flamer. I don't think anyone has truely flamed on this thread yet, and hopefully they won't.
4) The DCC sniper post wasn't flaming, I and a few others at least thought of it as light humor associated with the beginning of this thread.
5)Why bring Clang into this? I understand that some flaming (Me and you might have different definitions of flaming) might occurred between you and him, but not on this forum, or this thread, so why are you even mentioning all of that?
6)Hmmm, nasty, bottom line?? Lack of a better term, maybe? And go figure, What the... never mind...
7)In conclusion, I didn't accuse you of anything, I just implied that your statements might be offensive to some. Do you seriously think I've been flaming on here?? That is the least thing on my mind right now...... Anyway, lets put all of this behind us and let the thread return to its usual broadcast???
Paul3 wrote: clang,You're trolling yet again.el-capitan,Atlas O locos are low amp engines for O scale, which explains why NCE's ATL-O decoders are only $40 ea. But you still haven't explained decoders like the Digtrax DG583S...these can be had for as little as $52 ea. when bought in a 10-pack (at Tony's, otherwise, they are $56 ea. for one or $53 ea. for 4). The DG583S has a 5 amp continuous rating with a 10amp peak, and they can control 8 different functions (for lights, etc.). This decoder has been on the market for 4 years. Do you have O-scale locos that can pull over 5 amps continuous, & over 10 amps peak? If so, your point stands. If not, then my point that you don't have to spend $100 per loco for DCC in O-scale is correct, and you are wrong.
clang,You're trolling yet again.
el-capitan,Atlas O locos are low amp engines for O scale, which explains why NCE's ATL-O decoders are only $40 ea. But you still haven't explained decoders like the Digtrax DG583S...these can be had for as little as $52 ea. when bought in a 10-pack (at Tony's, otherwise, they are $56 ea. for one or $53 ea. for 4). The DG583S has a 5 amp continuous rating with a 10amp peak, and they can control 8 different functions (for lights, etc.). This decoder has been on the market for 4 years. Do you have O-scale locos that can pull over 5 amps continuous, & over 10 amps peak? If so, your point stands. If not, then my point that you don't have to spend $100 per loco for DCC in O-scale is correct, and you are wrong.
I get my information on Decoders from several of my friends that have converted Oscale open frame locos to DCC. If all of them are wrong or could be getting a better deal than I appologize. But I will still take their experienced word over your inexperienced word.
Paul3 wrote: Shhh, don't tell anyone in my HO scale RR club, but I own three O-scale locos... An Intermountain GP9 (with a Atlas FP7 drive), and two Weaver RS-3's (with P&D drives). Not DCC...yet. But that's the plan.
Shhh, don't tell anyone in my HO scale RR club, but I own three O-scale locos... An Intermountain GP9 (with a Atlas FP7 drive), and two Weaver RS-3's (with P&D drives). Not DCC...yet. But that's the plan.
So you have no actual experience with owning or converting open frame motor O scale engines yet you come on here acting like an expert.
Paul3 wrote: You did say on the older DCC thread, in regards to collisions, "With the current DCC system there is no protection from this." That sounds like "unavoidable" to me. The fact is that there can be protection from collisions with DCC...it just takes more time and money to do so.
You did say on the older DCC thread, in regards to collisions, "With the current DCC system there is no protection from this." That sounds like "unavoidable" to me. The fact is that there can be protection from collisions with DCC...it just takes more time and money to do so.
Paul3 wrote: Why did you state that there is no protection from collisions with DCC when there can be? Why did you state that block detection for your 1000 block club layout would cost $30,000 for when it can be done for $7,560 with DCC? Or when you stated that your 30-block home layout would cost $1000 for block detection when it could be done for $240 with DCC? Why did you imply that DCC could not offer Wi-Fi dispatching from your back yard, and not offer on-screen point and click throwing of track switches, and not offer on-screen occupancy? (which can all be done with DCC right now)
Why did you state that there is no protection from collisions with DCC when there can be? Why did you state that block detection for your 1000 block club layout would cost $30,000 for when it can be done for $7,560 with DCC? Or when you stated that your 30-block home layout would cost $1000 for block detection when it could be done for $240 with DCC? Why did you imply that DCC could not offer Wi-Fi dispatching from your back yard, and not offer on-screen point and click throwing of track switches, and not offer on-screen occupancy? (which can all be done with DCC right now)
ALL of this taken completely out of context.
Paul3 wrote: If you have no interest in arguing this, you aren't doing a very convincing job of it. Most times, when people have no interest in something, they ignore it.
If you have no interest in arguing this, you aren't doing a very convincing job of it. Most times, when people have no interest in something, they ignore it.
beegle55 wrote: Can't we just talk about the hobby from the viewpoint of DC power. Thats all I wanted this thread for, just to see who uses DC and what some of us DC users do to help our layout, and to discuss other things involved with our layouts. -beegle55
Can't we just talk about the hobby from the viewpoint of DC power. Thats all I wanted this thread for, just to see who uses DC and what some of us DC users do to help our layout, and to discuss other things involved with our layouts. -beegle55
AntonioFP45 wrote: clang wrote: Antonio FP, isn't there anything else you have to do besides police this threadYou can always go help the ebayers maybe even get a life.Paul three, I posted a smiley so that makes it okay right Hello Clang,I actually have a pretty good life. I don't police anything. Bergie does that. Were you not the flaming poster on the Atlas forum? I enjoy posting and interacting with fellow railfans and model railroaders that are good and decent folks. Whether on the web, or face to face. Hopefully you'll eventually get back into that category someday soon. Is there anything else that you do besides troll threads and disrespect fellow model railroaders with your childish, posts? BUT--- Unlike you, I do try to keep it encouraging and positive. Exchanging info and opinions should be enjoyable. BTW: Flaming others without having been provoked is the equivilent of swimming in a cesspool full of garbage. It's saddening that you jumped in head first. Why don't you shower the trashy attitude off and join in with the rest of us? Even with disagreements, the members here are a super good crew.
clang wrote: Antonio FP, isn't there anything else you have to do besides police this threadYou can always go help the ebayers maybe even get a life.Paul three, I posted a smiley so that makes it okay right
Antonio FP, isn't there anything else you have to do besides police this thread
You can always go help the ebayers maybe even get a life.
Paul three, I posted a smiley so that makes it okay right
Hello Clang,
I actually have a pretty good life. I don't police anything. Bergie does that. Were you not the flaming poster on the Atlas forum?
I enjoy posting and interacting with fellow railfans and model railroaders that are good and decent folks. Whether on the web, or face to face. Hopefully you'll eventually get back into that category someday soon. Is there anything else that you do besides troll threads and disrespect fellow model railroaders with your childish, posts?
BUT--- Unlike you, I do try to keep it encouraging and positive. Exchanging info and opinions should be enjoyable.
BTW: Flaming others without having been provoked is the equivilent of swimming in a cesspool full of garbage. It's saddening that you jumped in head first. Why don't you shower the trashy attitude off and join in with the rest of us?
Even with disagreements, the members here are a super good crew.
Calling people childish isn't flaming???? This is a general disscusion forum with a general disscusion thread on it and its for general disscusion for DC users, which means your posts are welcome, however flaming is unappriecated. Your replys seem to lead to flaming, so why start them just to create problems? Can't we just talk about the hobby from the viewpoint of DC power. Thats all I wanted this thread for, just to see who uses DC and what some of us DC users do to help our layout, and to discuss other things involved with our layouts. I don't think you 'police' this thread, but you sure invite some pretty heated replies. Calling people childish isn't encouraging nor positive! And yes I agree, this forum has some great members that shine through all of our disagreements, so maybe this post is just another reply to disagree upon...
If you do not speak on subjects that you are not knowledgeable in, why did you state that it would cost you $1500 to decoder 15 O-scale engines when one could do so for only $786.25? (that's 15 DG583S decoders from Tony's) Why did you state that there is no protection from collisions with DCC when there can be? Why did you state that block detection for your 1000 block club layout would cost $30,000 for when it can be done for $7,560 with DCC? Or when you stated that your 30-block home layout would cost $1000 for block detection when it could be done for $240 with DCC? Why did you imply that DCC could not offer Wi-Fi dispatching from your back yard, and not offer on-screen point and click throwing of track switches, and not offer on-screen occupancy? (which can all be done with DCC right now)
BTW, I'm hardly "coming out of the woodwork". I've been here a long time, even before there was a forum back in the mid 1990's (it used to be a guestbook).
Oh, and so far, nobody has called you a "liar", I just said you were incorrect. Being incorrect is not the same as being a liar.
Hey all,
First, I want to say THANKS to all the people trying to keep it positive. I am so impressed by those of you that have cab control, walk-arounds, etc. in non-dcc... I don't have a CLUE how to do this, but it sounds daunting and ambitious, so kudo's to you all.
Second, I would say that a lot of people who do DCC (like me) do it because that is all (or most of) they know. I grew up doing DC, took a 20+ year hiatus and then went back DCC, since that was the new cutting edge (to me...) and it seemed natural. It also seemed "easier" with regards to track wiring, insulated vs. electro-frog, etc. Little did I realize what fun installing decoders can be.... that all said, yes, I love DCC, but I understand why some do DC. In fact, I will probably be making a DC test track (albeit short) in my staging yard.
Finally, to those trolling... come on, guys. We are all in the same hobby having FUN. I am enjoying some parts of this discussion, especially learning all the cool things you guys have done in DC (I wish my dad had done/taught me some of these!!!)
Happy rails.
Brian
I have been modelling in N scale for over 25 years using the DC cab control. DC has served my needs then and now. Yes, I agree that there are advantages and disadvantages of both systems, and many times I pondered whether to convert to DCC. New technology is always enticing.
What changed my mind is the cost. I have a very large collection of engines and it will cost me a bomb to convert! That's not all, many of the older ones are not even compatible (unless you do some surgery to the frame) so, you can only insert decorders on the newer engines?? Not a good very proposition!
I have been using a pair of GML walkaround throttles for many years, they are good and reliable and will continue to use them for many more years. For newbies and retirees like me cost is an important factor when deciding on coverting to DCC.
navygunner wrote: Sometimes I get a wild hair and push the cars around the tracks with a finger!Bob
Sometimes I get a wild hair and push the cars around the tracks with a finger!
Bob, just think of that as the ultimate in "digital" control!
That also sounds strikingly similar to several of my turnout controls...
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
I switch back and forth between a pair of MRC tech IV 280's and a Digitrax Zephyr on my N Scale layout. What does that make me?
I see the benefits of 4 individual throttles without assigning an address to each one in DC. I flip switches to match polarity and power supplies to meet the needs of my trains. I speed, brake and momentum match locomotives in a MU with DCC. Each system has it's advantages and disadvantages.
I operate each control system on the same layout without any changes (other than which system is supplying power). The MRC's are hooked up to a bunch of DPDT switches to 4 teminal boards that distribute power to the blocks, the Zephyr is hooked up through a DPDT switch to all of the blocks. I am capable of and use both interchangably, and do so based on my mood.
I've been running an M3 Yellowstone with a coreless motor and a Sound equipped DCC Challenger this evening on DC. Tommorrow it may be a bunch of DCC'd SD70mac's and SD70M's or maybe The GS4 and USRA 2-10-2 on DC/DCC, Maybe the GP38's? How about the DCC Trainmasters or H16-44's, Maybe the CZ pulled by a DC set of PA/B/A's? Maybe the DC N&W 608 and 611 will meet in Podunk, KY?
Really, the only issue is when you come into the hobby. If it's not time and cost effective to convert or go to DCC... That's cool. If you have the time and money to go DCC that's cool too. If you are just starting out and go either way, that's cool too! It's a personal choice based on your unique needs.
It's not mine or anyone elses place to tell anyone else what they should use. Pick what you feel comfortable with and go for it!
I still run my 'legacy locomotives" on DC or DCC, I run my coreless motored locos on DC, I run my dropin/plugin decodered locos on DCC or DC. Sometimes I get a wild hair and push the cars around the tracks with a finger!
beegle55 wrote:I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers! -beegle55
Paul3 wrote: Your reasons are your own for not switching to DCC. That's ok. But when you post those opinions based on incorrect facts and express them as the truth, that's when DCC users feel they have to correct you. For example, your $100 per O-scale loco statements. These were incorrect and have been that way for at least 3 years.I think you would find very few pro-DCC users that would argue with you if you didn't post incorrect assumptions about DCC (like head ons being unavoidable, or prices being twice as much as they really are, etc.). No one should argue with you if you say you'd rather spend the money on another loco.
Your reasons are your own for not switching to DCC. That's ok. But when you post those opinions based on incorrect facts and express them as the truth, that's when DCC users feel they have to correct you. For example, your $100 per O-scale loco statements. These were incorrect and have been that way for at least 3 years.
I think you would find very few pro-DCC users that would argue with you if you didn't post incorrect assumptions about DCC (like head ons being unavoidable, or prices being twice as much as they really are, etc.). No one should argue with you if you say you'd rather spend the money on another loco.
You are the one that has the incorrect facts. Atlas O engines are low amp engines (<1 amp) because they run on can motors. Older locomotives such as all nation and US hobbies have open frame motors. They can pull over 2 amps. I know several guys with DCC who have experimented with many different decoders and the only ones that have proven effective cost over $80. If you want sound, lights, etc it is over $100. Just because a decoder is rated at 3 amps doesn't mean anything. 3 amps may only be good for 5 minutes of running. If you run it for longer it fries. This is based on what I have seen and no amount of your rhetoric will change that. Please make posts based on your knowledge and experience. Not assumptions. If you had any experience with 2 rail O scale you would know this.
I never said that head-ons where unavoidable with DCC, only more likely.
Every statement that I have made in this forum has been truth based on my experience and I do not speak on subjects that I am not knowledgeable in. I only wish that others could say that.
This is yet another classic example of me stating my opinion based on my past experience and a DCC person coming out of the woodwork to call me a liar. I knew this was going to happen the minute I saw this thread.
By the way, I take back the appology I made about my DCC snipers comment.
I have no interest in arguing this with you as my only reason for being here was to share ideas and experience with other modelers that have similar systems. It is unfortunate that I am unable to do this.
Really? What club? Snipers at rest? What a wonderful, and childish way to refer to your fellow forum members and modelers; isn't it?
Yes, hopefully all is well in your world of "model railroading".
cheers
Though I am a DCC person I find all of this childish. There is room for both though I admit some DCC people can be overwhelming. No doubt if you are an insecure person, the DCC talk will bother you. Besides there is a forum under Model Railroad Forums for DCC. So those other people are just doing tit for tat.
I use Linux software and there are religous wars there also. Give it up. Imagine how much more modeling you can accomplish. If you are just a person who just likes to talk (old timer) about anything or just wants to be heard, then I guess this thread is for you.
rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I guess we should be jealous of the Garden Railroad guys. They do that now - radio control of battery operated engines.
If I were home where is has been in the 70's the last few days, I'd be jealous of the garden railroad guys. But right now I'm working in Alaska where it is 1 below....I'm not jealous of anybody outside!
- Mark
There's no pleasing some people.
When I first heard of DCC with a 99-loco limit, I remember thinking it was like one of those 999-year business agreements: just a way of setting a practical maximum that nobody would ever see.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
clang,You're trolling again.
Brakie,You are always going on about this "super system" that will come along and vanquish DCC. Maybe, some day, something will replace DCC. But will either one of us be alive to see it? NMRA standards are not tossed aside so easily. IIRC, you said on the old Atlas Forum that DCC would be replaced in 5 years...and that was at least 3 years ago. So far, the only thing that's come out is MTH's DCS system, and that's not exactly taking the world by storm in HO scale. The only other thing that's even rumored to be coming along is the so-called "3rd Generation DCC"...but note that's still NMRA DCC, and is supposed to be compatible with current DCC installations. So far, it's not practical to beam enough energy through the air to make locos run, and battery tech hasn't leaped forward much. Maybe mini-turbines, but can you imagine refueling your HO or N locos with something combustible?
I think we're stuck with power through the rails for the forseeable future until battery tech makes it possible to run an HO loco with a 14v, 1 amp load for at least 2 to 4 hours straight.
el-capitan,1). Actually, you can get O-scale decoders for as little as $40 ea. at Tony's. The NCE ATL-O decoder is made for Atlas O locos. BTW, the DG383AR came out 3 years ago (4/04).
2). You used the "head on" collision as a reason to not switch to DCC. I merely pointed out that "head ons" can be eliminated by various means with DCC. I didn't say you should switch.
3). That's a good design.
selector,Thanks. Just so folks know, "Sharkman" over on the Atlas Forum is, at my guess, a very wealthy individual. He apparently has the means to reproduce, in N-scale, most if not all of the Santa Fe Railroad. His major complaint is that there is no DCC system that can handle more than 120 trains at once, nor can throw more than 2000 switches. He's also a 25 year Electrical Engineer who feels that DCC should be compliant with electrical industry standards used, for example, by the military. As such, his opinions are rather out of the mainstream for the hobby. I've tried to point out that he is probably the only single person in the world concerned with the 120 loco limit, but he's rather adamant that DCC is a poor design because of it. Sigh.
Dave Vollmer wrote: DCC guys,I started another thread so we can leave the DC guys alone. Clearly it's almost impossible these days to open MR and not be bombarded with DCC info. I doubt that we can add anything further to the wall of information out there already.Folks will convert if and when they're ready, and not a moment sooner. If Digitrax wanted to pay me is a recruiter, I'd be a little more aggressive, but I think by lecturing the DC folks we're not contributing to their enjoyment.Good points all, and thanks for keeping it civil. I'll depart this thread now, and I apologize for "crashing" the DC club!
DCC guys,
I started another thread so we can leave the DC guys alone. Clearly it's almost impossible these days to open MR and not be bombarded with DCC info. I doubt that we can add anything further to the wall of information out there already.
Folks will convert if and when they're ready, and not a moment sooner. If Digitrax wanted to pay me is a recruiter, I'd be a little more aggressive, but I think by lecturing the DC folks we're not contributing to their enjoyment.
Good points all, and thanks for keeping it civil. I'll depart this thread now, and I apologize for "crashing" the DC club!
Dave thanks for starting another thread, but hopefully it seems that there are a few modelers that have posted in the perspective that there is some type of "blurry" rift between DC and DCCers.
It's just so ridiculously strange. There should not be any at all. Especially when remembering the "MTH" debates of 2004-05. Many of the HO/N modelers here, whether DC or DCC, Brass or Plastic, Athearn or P2K...................... were united.
Hopefully that "we're all modelers" attitude has not changed.
Well put Jeff. I have always said that I would go DCC if I was just getting into the hobby, but the fact of the matter is that I am not, and yes, I'm happy were I'm at with DC. I don't think DCC is bad, I just think DC is what makes me happy right now, therefore the reason of my thread.
el-capitan wrote: Then before you know it the DCCers are in here with the "what about this" and "it's not that expensive". It pushes the rest of the DC guys into a position where we are forced to explain ourselves and offer a defense as to why we havn't switched. The person that started this thread put forth the question "who has not switched to DCC and why?" We were simply answering his question.
The person that started this thread put forth the question "who has not switched to DCC and why?" We were simply answering his question.
Right. But if one of the reasons for not switching is based on incomplete, or even wrong information, wouldn't you like to know? I'd say the same thing the other way round. If someone says that DC can't do something, so they 'have to' have DCC, and it is just not true, that should be corrected, too. If someone's reason for using DC is that they 'heard' that it costs $XXX to convert a loco to DCC, and that number is off by a factor of two, or even more, shouldn't he have up-to-date, correct, info? In the case of people who have DC, and are happy with it, I don't think they should switch. But new model railroaders are reading this, too. And I think they should have as much correct info as they want to base their decision on.
You don't have to defend your decision to stay with DC to me, or anyone else. There is only one person that needs to be content with that, and that is you. The only reason I posted anything in this thread was to point out a couple of things that a beginner might have taken as universal truth that were somewhat misleading, or at least incomplete. If that's bashing, I'm guilty, but it looks the other way around to me.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Larry,
I guess we should be jealous of the Garden Railroad guys. They do that now - radio control of battery operated engines. Maybe it's just a few generations of battery improvement away for smaller scales?
The "new" (50's era) house we just moved into has a huge back yard that is destined to have at least a simple oval in it.
The thought of track cleaning outside doesn't sound like fun, so when we do it, it'll definitely NOT be track powered!
Mike Tennent
MTennent wrote: Larry,I think you misinterpreted what I meant, or I didn't say it clearly. I didn't mean to say there wouldn't be another system, just that there will never be an "ultimate" system that one should wait for. That's a chimera.I'm enjoying DCC now. If another system comes along, I'll evaluate it and see if it's for me or not, just like I did with DC/DCC.Mike T.
I think you misinterpreted what I meant, or I didn't say it clearly.
I didn't mean to say there wouldn't be another system, just that there will never be an "ultimate" system that one should wait for. That's a chimera.
I'm enjoying DCC now. If another system comes along, I'll evaluate it and see if it's for me or not, just like I did with DC/DCC.
Mike T.
Mike,Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.The "ultimate" system will be the one that no longer relies on track for its power source.Think of it! No more worries over dirty track or wheels..No block or power block wiring no concerns over reverse loops or wyes.
I fully believe that will be the next step thanks to todays/tomorrows technology.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
To all the DCC supporters who have chimed in so far:
In my initial post, back on page 2, I used the acronym DCC once, to identify a time frame. Other than that, I stated my choice of control system and my reasons for the choice (no, it isn't simple 'one train at a time' DC, but it's a lot easier to operate than standard 'cab control.')
I am not 'defending' my choice of MZL. I didn't even use the word 'money.' I DID say I don't have any desire to try to trace circuits through a microchip, but that's because I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle. I'm also a firm believer in the old mechanic's adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." My MZL system, and some of the (up to) 47 year old components thereof (including a Tenshodo power pack bought new in 1960) ain't broke.
I realize that my choice is a personal one. So is yours. If you are happy with what you have, whether it be a rheostst and DPDT connected to a 12-volt battery or the latest and greatest offspring of Silicon Valley, wonderful. If you AREN'T happy, feel free to switch. DON'T feel free to try to switch ME, because I am very happy with what I have now and have no intention to change.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Paul3 wrote: 2). Head-on collisions can be factored out with DCC, but it requires a lot of work to do so. For example, using block detection, signalling, and a form of ATS to stop trains from going past a red signal are all possible with DCC today. It is, however, much more expensive to do so. Or, you can use your kind of block control with DCC...using the Dispatcher to turn off the blocks that the trains aren't using. A manual kind of ATS, sort of.
2). Head-on collisions can be factored out with DCC, but it requires a lot of work to do so. For example, using block detection, signalling, and a form of ATS to stop trains from going past a red signal are all possible with DCC today. It is, however, much more expensive to do so. Or, you can use your kind of block control with DCC...using the Dispatcher to turn off the blocks that the trains aren't using. A manual kind of ATS, sort of.
Paul, I think you've put your finger on the aspect of DCC that's most impressive (at least, to this relatively uninformed DC user): it takes us a couple of big steps in the direction of prototype operation, without the artificialities that DC block operation can impose, or the limitations of earlier systems like ASTRAC (which maxed out, I think, at five trains) or CTC-16. You know you have attained a reasonable simulation of reality when things like cornfield meets start happening, and the list of solutions to your problem starts to look a lot like the range of solutions real railroads adopt.
MTennent wrote: "I thought this was to be a place to discuss DC topics? We cannot get away from the constant blah blah blah of the DCC fanatics even here."Well, why don't you post about something other than DCC? So far, most of the posts here make it look like a DC AA group. "Hi, I'm George. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>"Hi, I'm Sam. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>"Hi, I'm Bill. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>(And yes, that is meant in a humorous vein.)But really, is being against DCC the only viable topic for a DC group? Is that all there is? I happen to count myself in both camps. I have DCC on my home layout, our club layout is DC, but will be switching soon, and I make products for DC layouts. On my home layout I have a separate DC trolley line, since automating a trolley is one thing that's very easy in DC but requires more work in DCC. Our club layout will be dual. No-one is interested in forcing others to convert their engines, so we'll build in the ability to run both. It's not that hard. That is one solution for those with a large investment in difficult to convert engines. No-one ever said you had to convert ALL your engines to DCC. In most cases it would be foolish to do so. But if you have a hankering to run multiuple trains with DCC, you can just convert a few engines to run in DCC. You can still run your DC engines with a flip of a switch.But if you don't run multiple trains or don't want to run them with DCC if you do, then DON'T GET DCC! Despite the claims of a few here, I've yet to see anyone argue that everyone needs DCC. If someone did, DCC users would be the first to disagree.The argument that leaves me scratching my head is the one that contends that there's going to be another "ulitimate" control system, so it's best to wait until it comes along. Guys, that's like holding onto a PC with DOS because the ultimate computer isn't out there yet. First, you can miss a whole lot of fun while you're waiting. Second, there is no ultimate system. Technology evolves constantly.Finally, how will you know when it comes along? You've skipped the DCC train, how will you recognise your ultimate sysytem? Is it the next one to come along? The one after that? Or the third in line? How will you tell?One final thought - there's more that unites us than separates us. Scenery, signaling, track work, buildings, detailing, painting, etc, etc. None of those are based on our choice of control systems. So I ask again - what are the DC specific topics? Is being anti-DCC all there is? Mike Tennent
"I thought this was to be a place to discuss DC topics? We cannot get away from the constant blah blah blah of the DCC fanatics even here."
Well, why don't you post about something other than DCC? So far, most of the posts here make it look like a DC AA group.
"Hi, I'm George. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>
"Hi, I'm Sam. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>
"Hi, I'm Bill. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>
(And yes, that is meant in a humorous vein.)
But really, is being against DCC the only viable topic for a DC group? Is that all there is?
I happen to count myself in both camps. I have DCC on my home layout, our club layout is DC, but will be switching soon, and I make products for DC layouts. On my home layout I have a separate DC trolley line, since automating a trolley is one thing that's very easy in DC but requires more work in DCC.
Our club layout will be dual. No-one is interested in forcing others to convert their engines, so we'll build in the ability to run both. It's not that hard.
That is one solution for those with a large investment in difficult to convert engines. No-one ever said you had to convert ALL your engines to DCC. In most cases it would be foolish to do so. But if you have a hankering to run multiuple trains with DCC, you can just convert a few engines to run in DCC. You can still run your DC engines with a flip of a switch.
But if you don't run multiple trains or don't want to run them with DCC if you do, then DON'T GET DCC! Despite the claims of a few here, I've yet to see anyone argue that everyone needs DCC. If someone did, DCC users would be the first to disagree.
The argument that leaves me scratching my head is the one that contends that there's going to be another "ulitimate" control system, so it's best to wait until it comes along. Guys, that's like holding onto a PC with DOS because the ultimate computer isn't out there yet.
First, you can miss a whole lot of fun while you're waiting.
Second, there is no ultimate system. Technology evolves constantly.
Finally, how will you know when it comes along? You've skipped the DCC train, how will you recognise your ultimate sysytem? Is it the next one to come along? The one after that? Or the third in line? How will you tell?
One final thought - there's more that unites us than separates us. Scenery, signaling, track work, buildings, detailing, painting, etc, etc. None of those are based on our choice of control systems. So I ask again - what are the DC specific topics? Is being anti-DCC all there is?
First of all I know this was supposed to be humor but I have DC and the ability to run 4 separate cabs on my layout.
This is exactly what I knew would happen in this thread. Just because I have a DC layout does not mean I am Anti DCC. That would be like me saying that because most of you have HO layouts you must be anti O scale. I happen to like DCC, it's just not as good as DC for what I want to do with my layout.
This thread started out pleasantly enough with a few guys talking about their DC layouts and what type of equipment they use. Then before you know it the DCCers are in here with the "what about this" and "it's not that expensive". It pushes the rest of the DC guys into a position where we are forced to explain ourselves and offer a defense as to why we havn't switched. Just because there are certain aspects of DCC we don't like does not mean we are DCC bashing, we are expresing our oppinions. Am I HO bashing if I state that the equipment is too small for my taste?
We are not looking to be converted or reasons to be converted. Nor are we bashing. Let it go. Start a new thread entiled "The DCC Club" and discuss how great DCC is.
Paul3 wrote: el-capitan,1). I agree that price is a big factor...but what about the Digitrax DG383AR decoder? http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_dg383ar.php It's a 3 amp decoder (5 amp peak) that's roughly 1.5" x 2.25" in size, & has 8 FX functions. At http://www.tonystrains.com/ it's only $50 ea., not $100 ea.
el-capitan,1). I agree that price is a big factor...but what about the Digitrax DG383AR decoder? http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_dg383ar.php It's a 3 amp decoder (5 amp peak) that's roughly 1.5" x 2.25" in size, & has 8 FX functions. At http://www.tonystrains.com/ it's only $50 ea., not $100 ea.
Prices may have come down to some extent since I last looked into it. Still a big investment though. And alot of work to install decoders.
I already have this with DC. Why would I switch?
Paul3 wrote: 3). With DC, you track it down to the faulty resistor/relay/power supply/transistor/etc., and replace the part (for the most part).
3). With DC, you track it down to the faulty resistor/relay/power supply/transistor/etc., and replace the part (for the most part).
My electrical game plan is K.I.S.S. (keep it stupid simple). I have no resistors, relays, transistors or etc's. If there is a problem it is either with a loco, wiring or power supply. I have yet to run into a problem that was not diagnosed and fixed within 5 minutes and solved with "common" replacement parts (fuse, wire splice, etc.)
Mike,I beg to differer there will be a new Wow by golly whiz bang control system.You see DCC is not the ultimate control system because it still relies on power though the rails and thus has the same faults such as dirty track,block-oops power districts shorts,wiring etc..DCC has it faults as we all know unless one is using the very basic DCC.
Know this..I wish I could invent the next whiz bang control system.
Sorry if I ruffled some feathers. I've been very happy with my switch to DCC so I can't help but sing its praises.
That said, I still use DC to power my signals. That's right!
I use my Tech II from my DC days to run my signals and signal animators. I use the DC current to adjust the signal brightness. It's mounted under the layout with industrial-strength Velcro.
So, on a lighter note, does this get me into the DC Club?
Clang,
"Go preach somewhere else" ......................
"Go preach somewhere else"
Is it really necessary for you to post such a nasty "in-the-sewer" reply?
Why are you saying "We"? Can you not speak for yourself?
Which modelers here have acted like fanatics? The person that made a "heated statement" apologized. That's the mark of an intelligent man. So there are no fanatics here.
BTW: Only my opinon, but chances are that 99% of DCC modelers that are over the age of 15 started in DC. So you can see that we're all binded together.
Overall this thread is full of intelligent, cool minded discussions here. Why you chose to dump trash on it is a baffling.
We have a good group of modelrailroaders here, bottom line.
I thought this was to be a place to discuss DC topics? We cannot get away from the constant blah blah blah of the DCC fanatics even here. Why is that?
WE DON'T CARE ABOUT DCC WE DON'T WANT DCC
Go preach somewhere else.
3). I agree that troubleshooting can be difficult, but that's true with any system. Trust me. I spent years operating my club's old 1953-era DC layout, and floating blocks, relays, and dead toggles are also a pain in the rear. One time, a member who was the Narrow Gauge chairman snipped out the wires to a long abandoned narrow gauge track that was being removed. It killed the whole Division (25' x 50') because what he cut was also the common return for all the cabs! With DCC, you normally track it down to the faulty component device and replace the device. With DC, you track it down to the faulty resistor/relay/power supply/transistor/etc., and replace the part (for the most part). Not to say one is better or not, just different.
twhite,You do realize that the "dinosaur" crack was in humor, right? After all, you're the one that mentioned the "Jurassic Era" first. modelmaker51 made a funny (note the smilie), and then you rather insultingly told him to think before writing. Now you are still calling his joke (note the smilie) a "Flame".
Tom, if you don't want people to jokingly relate your trains to dinosaurs, don't say things like, "Hey, I LIKE the Jurassic Era! It's still fun!" when you talk about them.
beegle55,Shouting at someone to "shut up" for making a joke (note the smilie) is over the line. Especially since twhite is the one that compared his trains to dinosaurs in the first place!!!
Dave and Antonio--
Good points, as usual. Actually, the only 'Flame' I've seen here on this particular thread is the guy that called my choice of control and locomotives "Dinosaurs." Everyone else has been quite civil in explaining their particular stance--DC or DCC. Which makes me think that the large majority of us model what is right for us at the present time and are not only willing to present our particular views in a reasonable manner, but also listen to reasonable opposing views in the same spirit.
Frankly, for a thread that COULD have gone to nothing but Sniping and Trolling, this particular thread has remained both lively, interesting and for the most part, quite civil. Which shows that people CAN talk without having to out-shout or out-insult each other.
Cheers to us, I say!
Dave Vollmer wrote: Virginian wrote:Dave, it must be us. I keep thinking I am getting the sour grapes mentality from DCC folks who cannot get DCers to agree it is the be all end all. Maybe I'm too sensitive... nah. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough.So let me get this straight. Never discuss (in public) politics, religion, and DCC!While I was still DC, I had to convince myself that DCC was a luxury I could do without. I talked myself into believing that it was too much for my small layout and limited operating goals, and was therefore overkill. But, the more I ran other layouts with DCC and saw it in action, the harder it was to convince myself that those grapes were sour. It just made everything so easy, convenient, and smooth.So, last year when it came time to rebuild my layout, I took the plunge and went Digitrax. Wow.Again, DC is great, and the right answer for lots of people. Nobody should look down on another for their choice of control systems. But you (third person sense) do yourself a disservice by trying to convince yourself you've made the right choice based on incorrect assumptions, fear, or sticker shock. If you've looked at DCC, maybe tried it out, or at least talked to knowledgeable people about it and still decide it's not for you, then you've got a rock-solid argument. That, and the budget. I know DCC is an investment. Otherwise, you may be missing out. I know I was missing out for the many years I wasted my money on non-DCC-ready locomotives, running them one at a time with my glorified rheostat...
Virginian wrote:Dave, it must be us. I keep thinking I am getting the sour grapes mentality from DCC folks who cannot get DCers to agree it is the be all end all. Maybe I'm too sensitive... nah. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough.
So let me get this straight. Never discuss (in public) politics, religion, and DCC!
While I was still DC, I had to convince myself that DCC was a luxury I could do without. I talked myself into believing that it was too much for my small layout and limited operating goals, and was therefore overkill. But, the more I ran other layouts with DCC and saw it in action, the harder it was to convince myself that those grapes were sour. It just made everything so easy, convenient, and smooth.
So, last year when it came time to rebuild my layout, I took the plunge and went Digitrax. Wow.
Again, DC is great, and the right answer for lots of people. Nobody should look down on another for their choice of control systems. But you (third person sense) do yourself a disservice by trying to convince yourself you've made the right choice based on incorrect assumptions, fear, or sticker shock. If you've looked at DCC, maybe tried it out, or at least talked to knowledgeable people about it and still decide it's not for you, then you've got a rock-solid argument. That, and the budget. I know DCC is an investment. Otherwise, you may be missing out.
I know I was missing out for the many years I wasted my money on non-DCC-ready locomotives, running them one at a time with my glorified rheostat...
With me it's not a sour grapes attitude. I have operated a few DCC layouts and understand the positive points of it. However, when I do state reasons why I have not converted (either on a forum or in real life) it seems like I have every DCC faithful come out and tell me I am full of BS. Here are the reasons:
1. Cost is a factor. Some of my Oscale engines pull over 2 amps and require a decoder which costs nearly $100. I just can't put a standard HO $20 decoder in my locos. You cannot argue that $1500 initial investment for my 15 locos is a major investment. And that is just for the decoders.
2. Head on collisions. I have a large layout that is in multiple rooms. Miscommunication between operators in separate rooms is common. While a head-on collision is nearly impossible on DC, it is way more likely with DCC. I have a ATSF Texas that weighs 12 lbs and 2 F45's that weigh 8 lbs each. A 30 car freight train can weigh over 40 lbs, not including the loco. I want to do everything possible to minimize the likelyhood of a head on collision between 2 50l lb trains. I'm sorry but there is no way that you can make me think differently.
3. When I have a problem with the operation of my layout I have always been able to troubleshoot it because it is simple. I would like to keep it that way. Throwing decoders and electronics into the mix always makes troubleshooting more difficult. Again, I'm not being sour grapes, I just know where my strengths are.
If you want to argue any of these points as being false or exagerated, go right ahead. You will not get any response from me though because they are not points to be debated in a committee.
I havn't really gotten the "sour grapes" feeling from the DC or DCC posts here. I have gotten into many arguments on other forums with DCC guys berating me. One guy was arguing that a block in DC operates the same as a power district in DCC. He started out the disscussion by telling me that everything that I had written was BS. Another told me that head-on collisions and accidents in general are inevitable and that I am just going to have to live with it. It seems that the DC guys can always see the good things with DCC, while there are a few DCC guys that don't see any redeeming value in DC and will jump all over you for it. I think it has to do with experience with the two systems. While there are a few DC guys out there that just don't understand DCC, there are just as many DCC guys that never had DC or if they did they really don't have a good working knowledge of a GOOD block system layout. Yet on the internet, everyone's voice is just as loud, no matter what teir experience.
Virginian,
I'll try and tread carefully here, as Vail states above........
Sour grapes mentality from DCCers? Honestly, I've read a lot of the posts on this forum over the past 3 years regarding DCC. In most cases, the DCCers seemed to have a very enthusiastic attititude. A few were condescending and were quickly "put in their place".
The "sour grapes" attitude that you mention I've seen overwhelmingly come from many DCers. Specifcally, as Vail mentions, statements about the technology that are either exaggerated or flat out untrue.
In reading Vail's post above, imho, he hit the nail on the head.
I'm going to try to tread carefully here, this has stayed so civil it's almost boring, and I'd like to keep it that way!
I feel like I've heard more 'sensitivity' from DCers defending their choice. I'm sure it is similar to me having to sometimes explain why I drive a 14 year old car, for me it is right (at least for now), and I might get defensive.
The thing that I think some DCC supporters (probably to include me) have done is point out some of the fallacies in the arguments to not convert. (In my case I'm not really that hard over on that, being somewhat from the if it works, don't fix it camp. I do think that in most cases someone starting out is going to be better served by starting with DCC rather than starting DC and planning to maybe switch later. End of commercial interruption.) I think that the cost and complexity of a DCC system are often overstated. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, DCC does not require autoreverse modules, a switch will do. Also, earlier today someone said that they didn't want the trouble of 'changing his whole layout' to convert to DCC, which is most likely extremely overstating the task.
My point is that I think in many, many, cases there are absolutely valid reasons for a DC system to stay DC. I also think that in these cases, but even more in the case of a newer model railroader, the decision should be made based on real facts and thoughts, and not on knee jerk, absolute, emotional, statements. And either solution might be the right answer.
I'm going back under my rock now. Please don't start a flame war over this!
cjcrescent wrote: MidlandPacific wrote: twhite wrote: MidlandPacific wrote: When I decide that I'm ready to expand my layout and make the leap to a bigger system, I think I'll convert to DCC. The advantages for large layouts seem pretty clear: more trains, more operators, and relatively less wiring. I put twenty-three blocks in my small starter layout, which is basically a pair of urban junctions, operated with dual-cab control. It was easy to wire it, but it was very time-consuming, and the circuit logic for a bigger layout with multiple cabs would get pretty unwieldy, I think. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see other great stuff what the electronics revolution can provide. Incidentally, per the comments on brass engines shedding parts, I have noticed that some of them do - some of the NJ Custom brass stuff seems to have detail parts that were held on with some kind of adhesive, rather than soldered, and I've noticed they will shed a bit, things like injectors and piping - as a Grande fan, Tom, you might have noticed this with their L-76 class 2-6-6-2s. Midland--Not to get off topic again (he said with an evil chuckle) but about the NJ Custom shedding parts--don't have their L-76, but I have three M-78 4-8-2's that came with drivers sprung with--of all things--GUITAR wire! Had to re-spring the little devils, because they were incredibly mushy, and the only thing that would work was a stronger Ernie Ball .013 guitar wire. You should have seen the look on the guy's face at the music store when I told him that the wire was for a model locomotive, not a Fender Stratocaster! But the stronger wire's held up for quite a few years, now. Nice to know if I need to re-spring, I can just head down to my local guitar shop, LOL! But I do have a tendency to refer to those three locos as my Rock n' Roll Mountains. Tom That's priceless! I got the same thing from a guy at a hardware store when I was buying fishing line to make truss rods. The larger guitar strings that have the "wrapping" around them also make great "insulated piping" for detailing engines as well.
MidlandPacific wrote: twhite wrote: MidlandPacific wrote: When I decide that I'm ready to expand my layout and make the leap to a bigger system, I think I'll convert to DCC. The advantages for large layouts seem pretty clear: more trains, more operators, and relatively less wiring. I put twenty-three blocks in my small starter layout, which is basically a pair of urban junctions, operated with dual-cab control. It was easy to wire it, but it was very time-consuming, and the circuit logic for a bigger layout with multiple cabs would get pretty unwieldy, I think. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see other great stuff what the electronics revolution can provide. Incidentally, per the comments on brass engines shedding parts, I have noticed that some of them do - some of the NJ Custom brass stuff seems to have detail parts that were held on with some kind of adhesive, rather than soldered, and I've noticed they will shed a bit, things like injectors and piping - as a Grande fan, Tom, you might have noticed this with their L-76 class 2-6-6-2s. Midland--Not to get off topic again (he said with an evil chuckle) but about the NJ Custom shedding parts--don't have their L-76, but I have three M-78 4-8-2's that came with drivers sprung with--of all things--GUITAR wire! Had to re-spring the little devils, because they were incredibly mushy, and the only thing that would work was a stronger Ernie Ball .013 guitar wire. You should have seen the look on the guy's face at the music store when I told him that the wire was for a model locomotive, not a Fender Stratocaster! But the stronger wire's held up for quite a few years, now. Nice to know if I need to re-spring, I can just head down to my local guitar shop, LOL! But I do have a tendency to refer to those three locos as my Rock n' Roll Mountains. Tom That's priceless! I got the same thing from a guy at a hardware store when I was buying fishing line to make truss rods.
twhite wrote: MidlandPacific wrote: When I decide that I'm ready to expand my layout and make the leap to a bigger system, I think I'll convert to DCC. The advantages for large layouts seem pretty clear: more trains, more operators, and relatively less wiring. I put twenty-three blocks in my small starter layout, which is basically a pair of urban junctions, operated with dual-cab control. It was easy to wire it, but it was very time-consuming, and the circuit logic for a bigger layout with multiple cabs would get pretty unwieldy, I think. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see other great stuff what the electronics revolution can provide. Incidentally, per the comments on brass engines shedding parts, I have noticed that some of them do - some of the NJ Custom brass stuff seems to have detail parts that were held on with some kind of adhesive, rather than soldered, and I've noticed they will shed a bit, things like injectors and piping - as a Grande fan, Tom, you might have noticed this with their L-76 class 2-6-6-2s. Midland--Not to get off topic again (he said with an evil chuckle) but about the NJ Custom shedding parts--don't have their L-76, but I have three M-78 4-8-2's that came with drivers sprung with--of all things--GUITAR wire! Had to re-spring the little devils, because they were incredibly mushy, and the only thing that would work was a stronger Ernie Ball .013 guitar wire. You should have seen the look on the guy's face at the music store when I told him that the wire was for a model locomotive, not a Fender Stratocaster! But the stronger wire's held up for quite a few years, now. Nice to know if I need to re-spring, I can just head down to my local guitar shop, LOL! But I do have a tendency to refer to those three locos as my Rock n' Roll Mountains. Tom
MidlandPacific wrote: When I decide that I'm ready to expand my layout and make the leap to a bigger system, I think I'll convert to DCC. The advantages for large layouts seem pretty clear: more trains, more operators, and relatively less wiring. I put twenty-three blocks in my small starter layout, which is basically a pair of urban junctions, operated with dual-cab control. It was easy to wire it, but it was very time-consuming, and the circuit logic for a bigger layout with multiple cabs would get pretty unwieldy, I think. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see other great stuff what the electronics revolution can provide. Incidentally, per the comments on brass engines shedding parts, I have noticed that some of them do - some of the NJ Custom brass stuff seems to have detail parts that were held on with some kind of adhesive, rather than soldered, and I've noticed they will shed a bit, things like injectors and piping - as a Grande fan, Tom, you might have noticed this with their L-76 class 2-6-6-2s.
When I decide that I'm ready to expand my layout and make the leap to a bigger system, I think I'll convert to DCC. The advantages for large layouts seem pretty clear: more trains, more operators, and relatively less wiring. I put twenty-three blocks in my small starter layout, which is basically a pair of urban junctions, operated with dual-cab control. It was easy to wire it, but it was very time-consuming, and the circuit logic for a bigger layout with multiple cabs would get pretty unwieldy, I think. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see other great stuff what the electronics revolution can provide.
Incidentally, per the comments on brass engines shedding parts, I have noticed that some of them do - some of the NJ Custom brass stuff seems to have detail parts that were held on with some kind of adhesive, rather than soldered, and I've noticed they will shed a bit, things like injectors and piping - as a Grande fan, Tom, you might have noticed this with their L-76 class 2-6-6-2s.
Midland--
Not to get off topic again (he said with an evil chuckle) but about the NJ Custom shedding parts--don't have their L-76, but I have three M-78 4-8-2's that came with drivers sprung with--of all things--GUITAR wire! Had to re-spring the little devils, because they were incredibly mushy, and the only thing that would work was a stronger Ernie Ball .013 guitar wire. You should have seen the look on the guy's face at the music store when I told him that the wire was for a model locomotive, not a Fender Stratocaster! But the stronger wire's held up for quite a few years, now. Nice to know if I need to re-spring, I can just head down to my local guitar shop, LOL! But I do have a tendency to refer to those three locos as my Rock n' Roll Mountains.
That's priceless! I got the same thing from a guy at a hardware store when I was buying fishing line to make truss rods.
The larger guitar strings that have the "wrapping" around them also make great "insulated piping" for detailing engines as well.
Carey--
Yah, Ernie Ball brass-wrapped .023 to .026 is really good for piping, especially if you're installing an Elesco FWH. Did it with my two Akane M-4 2-8-8-4's, and an Akane USRA Pacific, a couple of years back. Looks really cool. Thank God for guitarists, LOL!
I posted before on this:
1. It's not the money in my case, yeah I can afford to go out and buy the best unit out there if I wanted to.
2. Like I said in my earlier post 80 loco's I'd spend all my time converting and not running.
3. One man layout only, I just run a mainline train and then switch the yards or whatever.
4. I just don't need it, my finished ( yeah right ) layout is wired with lots of blocks and no one to wreck it for me. (except me )
I just don't want the aggravation of changing the whole layout, just to run more than two engines at a time. Call me a dinosaur I still use atlas switches because thats what I started with 35 years ago.
It's how you choose to pay. I used to put off buying DCC because I thought the money could be better spent on more trains. Now that I went DCC, I find the trains I have (at least those that I've converted over) are more enjoyable.
DCC is not just a "rich guy's" toy. It's how you chose to spend your hobby dollar. Plus, DCC is much more affordable now than it used to be. Still more expensive than DC, but not as cost prohibitive as it once was.
Again, I think you should stick with DC if that's what best meets your needs. But I get the sense that there's a "sour grapes" mentality among some that because they can't (or won't) invest in DCC, it must not be all that it's made out to be.
My suggestion is to find a local club or buddy who's running DCC and try it out. If it doesn't thrill you, fine. You don't need it. But at least you will have a good idea what it is you're chosing not to use instead of this big, expensive, complicated boogie man some folks have made DCC out to be.
In the end, it's your dollar to spend.
The play more-pay more phrase is used for people who can afford to pay more. I still can play more, but I am not going to pay more.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
DCC:
Play more - pay more
I still use DC and have no desire to change for several reasons:
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
I don't want to jump on to DCC for a big reason: I want this to remain a hobby, not an investment. Hobbies do come with some sort of "investment," but I am not ready for the shock of first time DCC conversion. I don't want to have to share stocks of my RR to keep it operational (LOL) I don't think the cost of DCC is too bad, but its too high for my budget of a hobby, and this could be in part because I have two or three seperate hobbies, which all require money, so I have to treat them equally. I don't even think DCC would be that hard to accomplish, its just I dont want to take the dive just yet. Just more of my
I'm staying with DC and will probably never go with DCC-no reason to. I'm into very small layouts, my main one is only 4X5.5 plus I have a 1X6 timesaver and a 1X5 inglenook, no need for DCC. I'm also running a Tech2 1400 powerpack from 25 yrs ago and it still works fine. Small and simple works for me
Bruce
I have bought all of my old brass second or third hand (if not more!), and I suspect that the reason it can sometimes be a mixed bag is previous owner maintenance - I have picked up stuff that runs like a watch on the test track, as well as stuff that jerks and pops along. People who buy Akanes today are buying items that are now thirty years old, and have probably been through a string of owners.
Too many Locomotives.
Not enough time to do all I want to do.
Equals not enough time and not enough money for DCC.
DC works fine for me. I can not justify a change to DCC now.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Started a new n-scale layout about 6-7 months ago, thought about DCC but for me it was cost prohibitive. I've got everything I want out of my DC layout and love it. I won't lie and say I never forget to flip the switch through one of my reverse loops though /snicker.
In some of my n-scale engines I don't see how it would be possible to mount a DCC chip inside it even if I wanted to. My near 30 year old chessie engine, that rattles like a snake, nearly jumps off the rails at times, brings back so many memories of days gone by. I have no desire to modify that dinosaur. It may not see much run time, but I really enjoy seeing it run through my layout now and again.
I love technology and "new" things, I'm an IT guy by trade, nearly 20 years in IT. Even though I didn't seriously look at DCC until 1/3 of my track work was done, after I looked at it, I knew for me (and I'm not dogging DCC), that DCC had a ways to go OR there would be something better. I figured if I'm going to invest money in someting, I'll wait for "something better" or not move off DC at all.
EDIT
Some of my post got eaten :\
As I stated in the Spacemouse thread, I like to have multiple operators run on my layout. This doesn't mean that I couldn't do it but the cost involved with the type of rotary swithces I would need to add to my collection would have been astronomical! Plus after adding in the price of wire etc, I decided that I had to go DCC.
I, like Tom am getting tired of people coming on and stating that old brass was bad runners. I've never encountered one that was, at one time I owned almost 50, except for a 1950's era International Models 2-8-0. That was easily fixed with a new gearbox and motor, since both in the loco were bad to start with. Parts coming off??? I've lost more parts off of the few plastic diesels I own than any other ten brass engines I own.
Unlike plastic locos, which generally come over lubed, brass never arrived lubed. You have to do some general maintanence to each and every one. When I finish with tweaking, I take the mechanism, minus the motor and worm, and place it on a plate of glass. Using the drawbar as a push/pull bar, if the mech rolls on the glass with just the frame as weight, its ready to go on the track. If not, it needs a little more tweaking. None of my steamers get on the rails until it passes this test. This also goes for my kit builts as well.
Like Tom, most of my fleet is brass steamers and I do run them, a lot! They are all balanced and have more weight in them. The newest brass engine I have is from the 1970's and it still looks better than, and I guarantee that it will out pull any plastic loco of its same size and even several plastics that are bigger. It will also move to the tune of 1 tie every 30 seconds. Up until this past year it was pure DC. That was when I finally got around to putting a decoder in it.
Now I will return you to your regularly scheduled forum.
Simon:
Those of us that have hi-tech transistor throttles with variable momentum, RF hand held control, and two cabs, May not feel the need for DCC.
My current layout layout fits my room, was designed for all modern improvements (motor driven turnouts - buss/feeder wiring - reusable modules - and yes, even DCC), HOWEVER I find block wiring undaunting, already have engines that run together, and find one 'guest' cab sufficient for my needs.
I guess I haven't found the incentive to switch over. I already have enough engines that run together (a major DCC advantage). I also privately wonder how many DCC'ers buy more than one (or two)of those expensive cabs (another main advantage). Joe Fugate excepted.
Sound is a mixed bag - I have it in Analog which sends two sounds to two speakers via blocks, including a $100 sub woofer with bass down to 50 Hz.- something DCC'ers or QSI and LOK cannot do.
TWO channel or Multi channel Surround sound should cure that.
I have nothin against DCC'ers or 'Plug and play' types, except their avoidance of learning basics +/- of electricity. How can understanding two wires be that complicated?
Rather than spend $300 on DCC, I'd rather have a working Signalling system - the kind that shows red yellow and green in both directions and block occupancy. Now that's realism.
My wife and I are getting back into Model Railroading after a long hiatus. I think that any thoughts of DCC went out the window after we watched a salesman in the local hobby store spend more than 30 minutes trying to get a train started <G>.
Model railroading has room for all sorts of people. Some people like to operate and some people like to build. Me - I like to fiddle with electronics. My first project (post hiatus) was a microcontroller based IR reflection car detector (why so complicated - had to be proof against stray ir - like the sun). Then a controller for a couple of 3 aspect signals on a pony wall (train goes back and forth forever. Then a daliance with a current type block occupied detector. Mustn't forget the microcontroller based noise generator (since I couldn't find the National Semiconductor part specifed in the old article on generating steam type noises) and so on. The next project will be a pulsing throttle again using a micrcontroller - the last one that I built (20 years ago or more) was built from op amps etc, much easier using a micro...
That's my kick. I could still do part of it if we went DCC - but then I wouldn't be able to justify playing around as much as I want to... The trains are a justification for my fiddling with the electronics.... It's good that my wife wants to build scenary - otherwise that would never get done
Villy
I can appreciate the case Antonio's making for DCC for a smaller layout, and it makes sense. Two train operation with DCC must be less operator-intense than two train operation with DC, since you're not constantly flipping switches and deconflicting blocks.
On the other hand, the great thing about DC is that it's the least common denominator of model railroading. It works with every locomotive (unless you converted your whole fleet to something like ASTRAC or CTC-16, in which case you're obviously an electrical and electronics pro who relishes that sort of work anyway). I see the time required to convert my fleet to DCC as the principal barrier to entry: right now, I want to spend that time building scenery and structures, not installing a chip every time I want to run a non-DCC engine.
oleirish wrote: Example DCC an reverse loop cost from $30.00 and up!In DC a dpdt switch and some wire and a few blocks. cost about $3.00 to $5.00I'am not knooking DCC but the cost is real high.
Example DCC an reverse loop cost from $30.00 and up!In DC a dpdt switch and some wire and a few blocks. cost about $3.00 to $5.00I'am not knooking DCC but the cost is real high.
Not trying to be a DCC sniper. But while this statement is accurate on the surface, it is possible to control a DCC reverse loop with a switch rather than an automatic reverser. While I have no objection at all to people selecting and/or staying with DC (it really isn't my business) I do think that anyone making this choice should have accurate information and not hype/anti-hype from either side.
Snipe! Snipe!
I'm a DCC user! You guys just {condescending words about DC and failure to evolve, changing times, too much wiring, etc.}... and that's where babies come from!
Just kidding!
Frankly, DCC does not fit everyone's need. I held out for many years but swicthed to DCC about one year ago. I'm very happy with it, but I would have been happy with DC too. DCC does have drawbacks (such as cost, decoder installs on older locos, etc.) and its advantages.
Go ahead and run DC if that's what fits your need. Don't be ashamed of it either. It's a very robust and simple way to run trains, and it's hard to argue with something that has worked for over half a century (or more!).
It's what makes you happy. Don't led the "experts" bully you into a system you don't want. And that's from a DCC user!
I'm going to have a small, around-the-wall layout. It will include a removable "lift out" section so continuous running is possible. My MRC Tech pack is an excellent performer. Except for two P2K E units, my HO diesel fleet is DC.
I was concerned about costs and was going to stick with DC. Then after talking to a friend and performing a little research I've found that a DCC setup with a Zephyr, plus 5 digitrax 123 decoders is still cheaper than one brass HO locomotive from Overland Models. So, that's why I scratch my head sometimes when I keep reading about "high cost".
Yes, there is a cost.....but I don't agree that it's so high up in the atmosphere as some modelers seem to express. For people on tight budgets (like me) it is still doable. Whether buying a few items at a time or my mother's favorite route: Layaway.
But anyway, there's nothing wrong with wanting to stick with DC. It is tried and true.
For me, with a small layout, I'm going DCC because....
1. Even as a lone operator sometimes, I want to be able to operate two or 3 locomotives. I want the freedom to be able to run on any track, anytime, without flipping block toggles.
2. Simplified wiring.
3. Speed matching. Even with tweaking, some Atlas, Athearn, and P2K units will play "tug-o-war" when coupled with each other.
3. I really like the incredible lighting effects offered (Mars, Gyra, Strobe, Ditch, Rule 17) and the ability to turn them on and off at will (like the prototypes). Same for passenger car interior lights.
4. The flexibility you have with sound, including the upload features. I want to be able to pick and choose which horn sounds my diesels have. I'm a nitpicker about this.
Again, I'm not being a DCC nazi. Just posting the reasons for my change of heart a couple of years back.
The club that I belong to had the quest throttles before they switched to DCC. The throttles were pretty reliable and had a decent range as this was a large club. The only thing I didn't like about them was the push-button controls. Running a mainline train wasn't bad but switching with these wasn't pleasant because you were constantly punching buttons to speed up and slow down. I really need to have a knob. I went with GML enterprises and their walkaround throttle with memory is great. Their website is
http://www.thegmlenterprises.com/
They also have really inexpensive electronic components for wiring blocks and such. And fast clocks although I have no experience with these.
mononguy63 wrote:why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere?
mononguy63 wrote: Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
Sounds like an interesting alternative, details please...
rrebell wrote:Also remember that dc can be operated like dcc with a crest radio control system, they have radio controls that plug right into the dcc plug like a decoder, real easy to have a few engines with that feature and swich back and forth with a few swiches.
Please tell me more about this "crest radio control system???
JIM
I have MRC Railpower 1500's (3) that hold all the needs of my 23' by 5' layout.
Most interesting??
For me it is cost,I have DCC but it cost to much to convert.So I'am staying with DC for now.I've been in and out of model rail roading for the best part of 50 years,I have HO and N scale both.
To try and convert all my locomotives to DCC is out my reach!DC or as often referd to as analog is easy for me.I'am useing an MRC 7000 sound and power unit I've had for years.and allso have an astro craft wire less I use(I converted it to re-chargable battries).When the price comes way down then maybe.??I have one loco with sound but I'am useing an old sound-trax unite ,the one with the cam on the driver,it sounds good but was lucky on the buy.It was real hard to apply the cam to the driver with melting the driver.
Maybe some day???
Simplicity and cost effenciency are why I use DC. I might not be involved with the DC club in years down the road, but it will always have a special place in my heart. I'm glad we have got back to the roots of the thread with discussing things halfway back on topic, but its ok to have off topic moments every now and then.
Simmon I agree with your assessment of the flood of DC to DCC users based on the local tri-county scene and surrounding clubs.Neither of the hobby shops carry DCC but,will order anything you need.According to the shop owners there is no market demand.There is a small group in Tiffin that uses DCC and I believe the Sandusky(Oh) club uses DCC.Other then that its all DC and those that uses sound uses the Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller..We have one at the modular club..However,sound was banned at the other HO club..That was by popular vote.
Now as we can see BLI has introduce a line of DC locomotives with sound.That speaks volumes in its self about DC still being the predominant power source-I know several modelers that is very happy about this line of sound equipped locomotives.I might be interested in a sound equipped SW1500 even if I have have to use a QEC instead of using my stored Empire Builder II.
On my a building industrial switching layout I will use my MRC CM20 since it has walk around control capability from the unit its self..The throttle has a 15 foot cord that will cover my industrial layout from end to end seeing its only going to be 10 foot by 18".
As far as DCC I agree with millrace..I also look for a new whiz bang gee whiz by golly state of the art control system. Why? Simply put and IMHO technology will demand it.
I'm between layouts at the moment. I do plan to build a layout as soon as I get out of my apartment and into a house, and so far, I plan to stick with DC for several reasons:
*I am pretty much a loner so I don't anticipate a need to run multiple trains at once.
*The cost factor. I find it more fun to spend money on things that are fun to look at as opposed to tiny circuit boards that don't appear to do anything at all!
*General fear and distrust of technology. How long will it be before the current DCC systems are completely obsolete and replaced by some some new gee-whiz thingie? I'm already sick of it with digital cameras. My old camera was state-of-the-art 4 years ago. Now it is considered obsolete even though it still works fine. I'm not real excited to spend another few hundred bucks (or more) to replace it with something that itself will be obsolete in 4 years.
DCC is certainly cool and definately the way to go for large layouts with multple operators, but for a small home layout like I'm planning, I don't think I need it. Maybe at some point in the future when technology stabilizes enough to make the investment worthwhile, I'd consider it.
mononguy63 wrote: What puzzles me is that if there is this flood of folks abandoning DC for DCC, then why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere? Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
What puzzles me is that if there is this flood of folks abandoning DC for DCC, then why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere? Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
Jim, I think that perhaps you have made an assumption that is not correct. First of all, I am not sure that there is a "flood" of folks abandoning DC for DCC. DCC has been around in one form or another for well over a decade. As a technology it has reached a critical mass and is most likely here to stay. It appears that many starting new layouts are choosing the DCC route, but I am not sure that we have seen a huge shift over in the well established layouts. The cost, the potential technical challenges and the difficulty, or even impossibility of converting cherished older models are very real and valid reasons for not making the change. Further more I would suggest that a DC layout that has expanded to include walk-around-memory-throttles has likely reached a point of development where it works well for the owner and does an excellent job for what they need. This further imbalances the cost/benefit calculation for conversion. (remarkably little perceived benefit for a huge potential cost) There has certainly been no shortage of regular used DC throttle packs on EBay and at train-shows, but then it is a lot simpler and cheaper to convert a smallish layout.
I think it is rather sad that this thread even exists. The notion that you all can feel belittled and looked down upon because you use a tried and tested control system that works very well for you is unsettling to me. I really don't like to see someones pride-and-joy described as a dinosaur simply because it was hand made to the highest level 2 or 3 decades ago and has older technology electrics and can't be easily converted to DCC. Almost all of us that use DCC cut our teeth on a DC layout. I have nothing but the fondest memories of my childhood layouts and my first efforts upon return as an adult. At no point did I have a layout that was anything much more than a couple of interconnected loops with 2 power-packs. I had a blast with this setup. It was not complex, I was not significantly invested in DC or older models. So I planned for and now run my new layout on DCC.
It takes all sorts of folks to make up a community. The hobby needs the techies and the computer nuts. It also needs the rivet counters, the super detailers, the scratch builders and the kids. It also needs the devotees of DC, block control and CTC boards. I don't think we do ourselves any good at all when we reduce ourselves to name calling and goading those with differing views and opinions into pointless arguments. So hopefully you won't get any DCC fanatics ramming their view of control down your throats.
twhite wrote: Antonio--Why didn't you come on EARLIER, LOL? Your posts always tend to set us back to what we were talking about originally, myself included (especially in this one!). Thanks.Tom
Antonio--
Why didn't you come on EARLIER, LOL?
Your posts always tend to set us back to what we were talking about originally, myself included (especially in this one!).
Thanks.
Just wanted to read along a bit as things did go south for a couple of minutes there.
You may remember that a year or so ago I was accused by a forum member, named Bruce, of trying to act like a moderator whenever I would kindly suggest "calm" on a thread undergoing a flame war. As a result I became a blowtorch target and I even started hurling rocks back until finally my common sense kicked in again.
My attitude is that this forum is a club that is open to anyone. Club members should help and look out for each other, even during disagreements. I wouldn't want to see an imitation of the big melt-down that occured on the Atlas forum back in 2005.
What has been really neat about this forum is that lately a number of threads that have had "heaters" spark up were immedietly cooled down by fellow forum members.
That's great!
I'm with others here - my new layout is about 9'x17' and will run two trains at once as a maximum in continuous running or only one if I'm doing more than just railfanning. I'll be the only operator 99% of the time. My old MRC Throttlepacks and some Atlas selectors have been and will remain all I really need (though a walkaround capability would be really nice).
I'm in the DC club, mainly because my layout isn't finished and I can only really run one train on it at a time.
But it's a matter of when, and not if, I will leave this club...Once my major trackwork is done, it's time to concentrate on getting a controller and installing decoders. DCC is one of the reasons why I'm in this hobby again. There's no tunring back, baby!
At least DCC locos are "backwards compatible" :) and can run on DC layouts.
I am a dinosaur, and I have no desire to evolve... in my hobby. At work we have DCS systems, computer systems, you name it. I understand it. Everything we make must be right or it costs us money, and everything we use to make it costs big bucks, so we don't want to waste it. It is not a hobby.
This is a hobby. It is not a religion, or politics ! Why does every disagreement have to turn into a point of honor or some such ? Lighten up.
When I had a layout, in fact the last two layouts, I ran DC, and had 3 MRC 2400s. When I build another one it will have the same things. I like playing with little HO steam trains, and making them run good, and making them look good. How I control them really just doesn't move me, as long as I can control them. I will probably go to DCC when the price drops to the point that it is worth it, to me. It ain't there yet. It ain't even close. Every time I think how I paid about $175 net for my last computer system, and see what it can do versus DCC, and how easy it is to do it, the whole pricing thing with DCC just ticks me off.
I had a bit of brass some years ago. I sold all of it but two (still have my first ever loco and an N&W streamlined K2), to finance newer purchases like BLI Class As, PCM Y6bs, BLI Class Js, P2K Class Ys, and P2K Berkshires, track, switches, etc. So far, I am not a bit dissatisfied. I got brass because that was the only way to get the prototypical steam locomotives I wanted. Times changed. My newer engines may not last as long as brass, but I think they are still going to last longer than I will. I have had to replace a gear. I realize I like working on them too, so that's okay. As long as NWSL is around I think I can manage.
All the above refers to me. As long as you like toy trains too, I am all for you. I do not feel an overpowering urge to educate you, or change you. I do not understand why anyone would prefer diesels over steamers, just exactly like a lot of you can't see why I like that old junk.
If I say 2 plus 2 equals 5, I am wrong. Feel free to tell me so. But, if I say I don't like green, don't tell me I'm wrong, and for God's sake don't try to change my mind, because I am right; I don't like green ! And just because you like green, don't take as a personal challenge. I am glad you like green. Someday, I may have to have some green paint for something, too. If I like eBay, and you don't, or vice versa; good. We both face less competition in our chosen marketplace. Don't tell me how to bid, and I won't tell you. Anyone who can't figure things out doesn't deserve to compete.
Have fun.
Well said, Tom. Let's keep things civil... it is all about the trains, so personally I don't care what system the guy next to me uses... for all I care, he can use a lil' shovel to load his live steam brassie full of coal!!! Remember, your layouts are YOUR layouts... Glad to hear that some peeps like DC and some like DCC. Both are great and personal taste is what it is about! CHOOO CHOOOO...
twhite wrote: Jim--not with me, you didn't fuel the fire. What you said is what a lot of us should think--that what works best for you is the answer for you. So--have fun training, my friend, that's what it's all about.Tom
Jim--not with me, you didn't fuel the fire. What you said is what a lot of us should think--that what works best for you is the answer for you. So--have fun training, my friend, that's what it's all about.
Ding! Grand Prize Winner!
Soo Line fan wrote: Well this is different, a thread dedicated to DC. What are you guys using for power packs? I have an old MRC Tech 2 2500 and 2400. For walk around I use a MRC 55 cab control. Jim
Well this is different, a thread dedicated to DC.
What are you guys using for power packs? I have an old MRC Tech 2 2500 and 2400. For walk around I use a MRC 55 cab control.
Jim--
I have an MRC Control Master 20 with the walk-around throttle and the 25ft. extension. Works very well for me, has plenty of power (plus a "Nudge" switch to get some of them started smoothly. Nice little unit. I've had it about five years and no problem whatsoever.
jim22 wrote: I'd like to say my new layout is DC, but I can't. I even had a great walk-around throttle (homebuilt, and I even bought parts to make a second one). Unfortunately, I took one look at my layout and the number of blocks/isolation tracks and associated wires and switches I would need, and I ran screaming from the room ... right to my LHS where a nice NCE PowerCab was on sale. Of course, I have dumped quite a bit of cash installing decoders in engines that were fine on DC beforehand. I feel like I copped-out on the DC guys, but I will say I'm enjoying my DCC system. I should also point out that I'm pretty much a geek, so the whole programming thing is second nature to me. I think DC is cool, but I was having trouble thinking far enough ahead to get it right on my layout as I built it, and DCC is a little more forgiving on the planning stage.Hope I didn't fuel the fire - didn't mean to.Jim
I'd like to say my new layout is DC, but I can't. I even had a great walk-around throttle (homebuilt, and I even bought parts to make a second one). Unfortunately, I took one look at my layout and the number of blocks/isolation tracks and associated wires and switches I would need, and I ran screaming from the room ... right to my LHS where a nice NCE PowerCab was on sale. Of course, I have dumped quite a bit of cash installing decoders in engines that were fine on DC beforehand. I feel like I copped-out on the DC guys, but I will say I'm enjoying my DCC system. I should also point out that I'm pretty much a geek, so the whole programming thing is second nature to me. I think DC is cool, but I was having trouble thinking far enough ahead to get it right on my layout as I built it, and DCC is a little more forgiving on the planning stage.
Hope I didn't fuel the fire - didn't mean to.
tomikawaTT wrote: The only thing lacking is sound - which, with several locos running in an acoustically "bad" room, is something I can live without.Yes, I know that a pure DC loco can be jiggered to make noise. I can just see the onlooker reaction to Whoomf - chuff - chuff - chuff emenating from the subterranian depths when there isn't a single moving steam loco anywhere on the visible trackage of the layout... Thanks, but no thanks!Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September 1964)
The only thing lacking is sound - which, with several locos running in an acoustically "bad" room, is something I can live without.
Yes, I know that a pure DC loco can be jiggered to make noise. I can just see the onlooker reaction to Whoomf - chuff - chuff - chuff emenating from the subterranian depths when there isn't a single moving steam loco anywhere on the visible trackage of the layout... Thanks, but no thanks!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September 1964)
I can agree with that. Half the enjoyment of MR to me is the silence.
Chalk me up as one with an extensive roster, largely (but not exclusively) brass, most of which was new long before the advent of DCC. I also use a rather unusual variant of DC power distribution known as MZL, aided and abetted by automatic train stop, on a layout that, when somewhat more complete, will have a LOT of hidden staging.
The biggest advantage, to me, is that I'm not at the mercy of a microchip! Direct electrical connections, discrete resistors and clearly visible switch connections are much more to my liking.
The system I use has the advantage of being able to handle single-operator display running as well as multi-operator CTC operation where the major turnouts are controlled from a central panel, the dispatcher assigns track by powering it from a specific controller and the train crews are free to run their trains and throw minor turnouts without consulting "headquarters" or flipping power toggles. The only thing lacking is sound - which, with several locos running in an acoustically "bad" room, is something I can live without.
Cool.
Soo, I still have my MRC 2500. Excellent powerpack. When I get my Zephyr, I plan on using the "jump port" feature on it to connect the 2500 and use it as a second throttle.
I'm using GML throttles that are walkaround. I have had a few issues with them but overall pretty good. I like buying from local companies and this one is out of Lapeer, MI. Most of the issues I have had with the throttles are a result of running older open frame O scale motors in multiple units (all-nation F3's for any oscalers out there). I will say that the service is excellent and Gene the owner has been very helpful over the years.
I apologize for the sniper comment. Just my stupid sense of humor which translates very poorly over DSL.
Gappleleg:
I think it's what we feel comfortable with. I like to run trains. And I'm not a multi-tasker, so one or two (usually one) train is what I really like. I figure that if I can do it with DC and feel comfortable--then do it. If I run a mainline train through my mountains, I concentrate on that SINGLE train. If I want to make up a train in my yard, then I concentrate on THAT train. If I want to run a local with a lot of switching, then that's the train that recieves my full attention. I don't need the "Royal Gorge" whizzing by when I'm dropping off cattle cars at the mountain spur. I really like to concentrate on ONE thing at a time. That's what gives me the pleasure of running my model railroad, the concentration on THE TASK AT HAND.
Frankly, I think it's wonderful that fellow modelers like to run multiple trains IF THAT IS THEIR CHOICE. But to denigrate those of us in the hobby who prefer a more relaxed attitude seems to me to show a real lack of individual thinking or actual respect for ALL of us--themselves included.
To coin it another way: I'm a Catholic. Nothing about my personal beliefs makes me believe that everyone ELSE is going to Hell, for cryin' out loud! It's a personal form of approaching God, not the ONLY one.
Figure it from there.
el-capitan wrote: Wow! It took the DCC snipers 3 hours and 37 minutes to mount their offensive. What's wrong guys. Usually you are much more punctual.BTW I would take 1 brass engine over 10 plastic any day. My most reliable engine is my SF 2-10-4 by sunset. I don't know what kind of cheap brass he is buying with parts falling off but I have never heard of that and I have brass from 5 different manufacturers.
Wow! It took the DCC snipers 3 hours and 37 minutes to mount their offensive. What's wrong guys. Usually you are much more punctual.
BTW I would take 1 brass engine over 10 plastic any day. My most reliable engine is my SF 2-10-4 by sunset. I don't know what kind of cheap brass he is buying with parts falling off but I have never heard of that and I have brass from 5 different manufacturers.
Capitan,
Why are you adding to the flame war? Why help turn it into a DC vs. DCC war and Brass vs. Plastic? So far we have DCC Snipers and Dinosaurs. This started out as such a good thread.
Am I the only one here that can sit back and greatly appreciate the qualities of Brass, Plastic, DCC, and DC? I've only been modeling just under 3 decades and have seen great advances made in this hobby.
1. For DCC sound, I've read several times that brass locomotives are excellent units for it due to the great resonating qualities offered by brass.
2. Plastic locomotives have come such an incredibly, long way from the old Blue Box days of the 70s thanks to advances made in tool/die making as well as demands from modelers and railway historical societies. For diesels, realistic body and truck detailing that was once almost exclusive to brass locomotives, are now included "in-the-box" from manufacturers such as Atlas, LL Proto, and Athearn.
3. DCC, for many, has opened new horizons in the hobby. Locomotives can travel anywhere, without restrictions. Lighting effects, changeable sound effects, are possible. Has become so much more user friendly in the past 5 years.
4. DC. Still reliable and easy to use. With few minor exceptions, the quality of drives and powerpacks have greatly improved. Many DC units now come with a DCC decoder plug feature that makes it so much easier to convert to DCC.
GUYS.....Some of you are bickering over nothing because our scenario, with the exception of higher costs, is still WIN-WIN!
You buying?? If so I will take 2 GP39s by OMI. LOL! LOL!
twhite wrote: El-Capitan. Well, I suppose I SHOULD admit--I had the pilot of my Rio Grande 2-8-0 bust off about six years ago--BUST off, not FALL off. I won't tell you why or how, because it's too darned embarrassing and had nothing to do with the factory solder, but--funny little thing--instead of soldering it back on, I super-glued the little devil. It's still on, and I use it as the Deer Creek switcher. Can't even tell where it came off, not even with a microscope. Now, WHO says that brass isn't forgiving to work on, LOL? STILL don't know where he heard those stories! BTW, all I ever had to do with it was replace the open-frame with a NWSL can. The little devil was already perfectly balanced and sprung. I just wanted it to run slower. Creeps like a Washington State Banana Slug. I love it!Tom
El-Capitan.
Well, I suppose I SHOULD admit--I had the pilot of my Rio Grande 2-8-0 bust off about six years ago--BUST off, not FALL off. I won't tell you why or how, because it's too darned embarrassing and had nothing to do with the factory solder, but--funny little thing--instead of soldering it back on, I super-glued the little devil. It's still on, and I use it as the Deer Creek switcher. Can't even tell where it came off, not even with a microscope.
Now, WHO says that brass isn't forgiving to work on, LOL? STILL don't know where he heard those stories! BTW, all I ever had to do with it was replace the open-frame with a NWSL can. The little devil was already perfectly balanced and sprung. I just wanted it to run slower. Creeps like a Washington State Banana Slug. I love it!
I have tweaked a few of my locos. I add weight to all of them, not just the brass. The electrical connection from engine to tender on my Texas was done through the draw bar which didn't work too good so I added a wire for power, but that was all the tweaking necessary. Other manufacturers like Precision scale have had issues with poor drives that need to be replaced. I don't own any of those so I can't speak from experience. I have also been happy with the 2 F-45's I have from US hobbies. They still have the open frame motors. I would change them but they run perfectly, nice and smooth.
WWIII won't be started on this post, because if it gets out of hand I think the original poster can delete it. I too apologize, getting caught up in the heat of the moment caused a little tyrate by me, but you have to fend for what you know is right. Lets hope this post turns back to normal is kept in the road for the duration of its life, however short or long that might be.
el-capitan wrote: Wow! It took the DCC snipers 3 hours and 37 minutes to mount their offensive. What's wrong guys. Usually you are much more punctual.
I'd say it hasn't started yet, and probably won't. The closest thing was posted by the guy who started the thread!
beegle55 wrote: If we didn't like or damned dinosuars, we wouldn't be singing their praises here would we??? Why do people constantley try to start stuff? And I agree with twhite, the cracked gear problem seems to arise in more posts than not. As for brass, well im not a brass man, never have and probably wont, so I can't comment on that. As far as good decoders, dual mode with more than four function sound enabled cost a little more than $11, now don't they?? I didn't say anything about being off topic, I said this was a place for us people who model using DC to talk about anything and everything, although maybe not clearly stated. In addition, I don't think their has been an off topic post yet, except for YOURS MODELMAKER!!!!!!!! I didn't start this post for flaming, so shut up and mind your own buisness, thanks. And yes, WE REALLY DO ENJOY OUR DINOSAURS!!! SO THANKS FOR THE CONCERN BUDDY!!!! Just my ... -beegle55
If we didn't like or damned dinosuars, we wouldn't be singing their praises here would we??? Why do people constantley try to start stuff? And I agree with twhite, the cracked gear problem seems to arise in more posts than not. As for brass, well im not a brass man, never have and probably wont, so I can't comment on that. As far as good decoders, dual mode with more than four function sound enabled cost a little more than $11, now don't they?? I didn't say anything about being off topic, I said this was a place for us people who model using DC to talk about anything and everything, although maybe not clearly stated. In addition, I don't think their has been an off topic post yet, except for YOURS MODELMAKER!!!!!!!! I didn't start this post for flaming, so shut up and mind your own buisness, thanks. And yes, WE REALLY DO ENJOY OUR DINOSAURS!!! SO THANKS FOR THE CONCERN BUDDY!!!! Just my ...
Thanks, Beegle, but oh, boy, I hope I didn't just start WWIII, LOL!
Actually, we who run our brass instead of 'collecting' it, spend an initial time 'tweaking' it, Depending on the loco, it could just mean grease on the gears and oil on the rods, up to taking the thing apart, re-balancing, re-weighting and re-motoring it to get what we want out of the little devil. But when it's to our satisfaction, it usually STAYS that way for years and years.
And yes, an 11-dollar decoder is going to give me about as much satisfaction as a portable I-pod versus a home entertainment system. If I want to go DCC (and I'm not putting it down, not by a long shot--some of the features just fascinate me), I'm going to go First Class. I've worked too hard on my hobby NOT to! But at my age, and with my now limited income, I just don't have that option., right now Ergo, I will stick with my DC.
I should not have flamed back at the previous poster, that is not my style, and I do apologize to everyone on the thread for doing so. But at my age, uninformed about ones particular talents and circumstances is NOT a reason to denigrate them.
modelmaker51 wrote: twhite wrote: I'm sticking with DC. I've got a nice walkaround throttle, 'prototype' blocks and I run at MOST, two trains at once, something I can do pretty well with DC. Besides, I just can't see the expense of putting decoders into about 45-50 brass locomotives at this stage in my life. I've got some DC/DCC steamers, but I don't run them very much, and after hearing about all the 'cracked-gear' problems with the newer locos that have come out, I plan on selling them ASAP. Which leaves me with my trusty, dependable brass. Hey, I LIKE the Jurassic Era! It's still fun!Tom You have some bad and incomplete information. There were only 5 models with the cracked gears, all of which were made by one manufacturer (LifeLike's Proto2000). Replacement gears were offered free of charge and are still available from Walthers, the new owners of Proto2000 and still free of charge. And this doesn't have anything to do with DC versus DCC.Good quality decoders are available for as little as $11 (NCE).Trusty, dependable Brass? Ha, ha, ha! LOL Most older brass is undependable and untrustworthy. Inadequate electrical pickups, poor motors, cold solder joints with parts coming apart or falling off altogether! Again, nothing to do with DC versus DCC.You keep on enjoying those dinosaurs.
twhite wrote: I'm sticking with DC. I've got a nice walkaround throttle, 'prototype' blocks and I run at MOST, two trains at once, something I can do pretty well with DC. Besides, I just can't see the expense of putting decoders into about 45-50 brass locomotives at this stage in my life. I've got some DC/DCC steamers, but I don't run them very much, and after hearing about all the 'cracked-gear' problems with the newer locos that have come out, I plan on selling them ASAP. Which leaves me with my trusty, dependable brass. Hey, I LIKE the Jurassic Era! It's still fun!Tom
I'm sticking with DC. I've got a nice walkaround throttle, 'prototype' blocks and I run at MOST, two trains at once, something I can do pretty well with DC. Besides, I just can't see the expense of putting decoders into about 45-50 brass locomotives at this stage in my life.
I've got some DC/DCC steamers, but I don't run them very much, and after hearing about all the 'cracked-gear' problems with the newer locos that have come out, I plan on selling them ASAP. Which leaves me with my trusty, dependable brass.
Hey, I LIKE the Jurassic Era! It's still fun!
You have some bad and incomplete information. There were only 5 models with the cracked gears, all of which were made by one manufacturer (LifeLike's Proto2000). Replacement gears were offered free of charge and are still available from Walthers, the new owners of Proto2000 and still free of charge. And this doesn't have anything to do with DC versus DCC.
Good quality decoders are available for as little as $11 (NCE).
Trusty, dependable Brass? Ha, ha, ha! LOL Most older brass is undependable and untrustworthy. Inadequate electrical pickups, poor motors, cold solder joints with parts coming apart or falling off altogether! Again, nothing to do with DC versus DCC.
You keep on enjoying those dinosaurs.
Thank you, I plan on enjoying those re-motored, re-geared dinosaurs that are running like Swiss Watches and have been doing so for the past forty years (and probably the next!), without parts falling off or the solder getting old (where exactly did you hear these stories? the Brothers Grimm?).
As to cracked gears, read the posts, once in a while. It's spread like wildfire from Proto to Genesis to BLI to PCM. All of which I have--and will soon have not.
And yes, it does have EVERYTHING to do with my choice of DC vs. DCC, if you live on a fixed income and have the prospect of adding decoders to 45or 50 locomotives.
Think before you write, my friend. It works better.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
All the above posts are excellent. DCC is probably the way to go if you are just starting to build a layout, but for us who have layouts that have been wired and setup for DC, and fleets that support our layouts, DC is the way (most affordable, easiest) way to remain. I like the idea of DCC, but Ill save it for another time. I enjoy the simplicity of DC, it keeps the fun in the hobby. I don't think sound has evolved enough for me to go DCC, which is what I would like to do it for.
el-capitan wrote: This has been a sensative subject on this forum in the past. Watch out, the DCC snipers are watching. They are waiting for you to point out that DCC is not perfect and then they will jump all over you. Just a warning. All hail DCC!
This has been a sensative subject on this forum in the past. Watch out, the DCC snipers are watching. They are waiting for you to point out that DCC is not perfect and then they will jump all over you. Just a warning. All hail DCC!
Indeed we must pay proper homage, we cannot offend the chosen ones.
I'm sticking with DC. First and foremost, the time required to install decoders in my large HO locomotive fleet is simply better invested in other activities. And while the cost of quality decoders has come way down (and will no doubt continue to drop), the cost of paying someone to install them really has not. I both cannot afford to pay someone to install them for me, and am also one of those "rather do it myself" guys.
But secondly, the only part of my layout that would really benefit from DCC is my two terminal areas, one of them of moderate size but the other quite small. THe track plan for the main line is such that DC cab operation is really just as easy as putting a new consist number into the DCC throttle.
Having said that, I firmly believe that anyone who is starting in the hobby today should go DCC. My loco fleet has been assembled over a period of twenty-plus years (not counting the half dozen locos from my layout when a boy and teenage), and converting them one-at-a-time as purchased would have been no big deal.
Those snipers really keep good watch. Its not really the cost any more, maybe the initial shock, but after that it isnt too bad. I just simply think i dont need it and can put my money into more of the layout, not just the control.
I still run DC on my 2 rail oscale layout. I do not see myself going to DCC while this layout is still in operation. Here's why:
Wiring blocks is not difficult. Time consuming but not difficult. Now that mine is mostly done I really don't feel a need to leave block operation. Maybe on the next layout.
I like operating the layout on a CTC system. Block control lends itself very well to CTC. If I wanted to run on train orders I might reconsider DCC.
My operating sessions will consist of 4 separate operators. My layout consumes my entire basement and traverses through 3 rooms. During operating sessions I am usually the acting dispatcher I like the control that the blocks give me. I don't have to worry about head on collisons in a tunnel between 2 rooms because someone missed a red signal.
I currently have 12 locos and another 2 on order. I have heard that the decoders cost upwards of $100 per loco (for Oscale). That's $1,400 bucks that could either go to decoders or a new brass steam loco..... I'm sorry but if I had the money it would go to the new loco.
My dad also has 2 rail DC and I want him to be able to bring his junk over and run it as well.
I will be inheriting my dad's 25 locos some day.... another $2500 or 2 more brass steam locos. Not a tough decision at this point in my life.
Well I went from DC to DCC/Sound then back to DC. First on my industrial switching layout was a one engine operation and to be frank sound got on my nerves and the sound didn't sound quite right.
No..I have no plans as of now returning to DCC/Sound.
I agree with you 110%. I don't think any wiring is too dificult once you use common sense and decode wiring diagrams. I have planned to go DCC as well, but I am figuring on doing it on my next layout, if that day ever comes. My entire roster still needs detailed, so installing decoders would be essential but so much more needs to be done before hand. Ill just have to wait and see. I am definatley not ruling it out either, its just another thing at the bottom of the pile.
DC satisfies my needs. I have two cabs (the second one would be for guests, I suppose) and each has an RF throttle from Aristo-Craft. They're intended for large-scale trains but work for any scale--all they do is regulate the level of voltage coming out of a powerpack and reaching the track.
With that wireless walkaround ability, I get all the performance I need. I don't find two-cab DC wiring to be difficult or expensive, so that isn't a factor.
I'd planned to go DCC, but I just don't see a great increase in performance for the trade-off in expense and effort (to install decoders), so I haven't done it. I'm not ruling it out, but for now, my resources go elsewhere.